Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

wii, brain training and Nintendogs

Did you see where I said non-Blue Ocean?

so being one of Nintendos top 10 selling ips having many fans around the world and more games than many others and it’s a B franchise? Absurd

Yeah. Most Kirby games hover around 2 mil units, which is good, but not a-tier. The Switch has bumped up the units, but it's done that across the board, and frankly sent most of the a-tiers into the stratosphere. All of those other than Splatoon have or will hit 25 mil and up.

And just having a lot of games doesn't make a series a-tier. FE had like a dozen games before it even cracked one mil.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The weirdness with ARMS is that it could very get a sequel, and might be worked on right now. It's just that with Nintendo playing their cards close to their chest, the tendency of certain series to have long gaps between releases, and it not being quite as established as other IPs (nor as insanely successful as Splatoon)?

It falls into a gray area where a followup happening or not happening would make complete sense, and that mystery won't really be resolved until we get a sequel or until its absence is long enough that it's relatively safe to assume Nintendo's currently done with it.

 

[fogbadge]

Don't think it is? I double checked the Install Base thread I linked to and everything seems pretty up to date to me. What is "outdated" here to you, exactly?

last I checked the wii series was still outsold by Mario and pok

Did you see where I said non-Blue Ocean?


Yeah. Most Kirby games hover around 2 mil units, which is good, but not a-tier. The Switch has bumped up the units, but it's done that across the board, and frankly sent most of the a-tiers into the stratosphere. All of those other than Splatoon have or will hit 25 mil and up.

And just having a lot of games doesn't make a series a-tier. FE had like a dozen games before it even cracked one mil.

oh when you said blue ocean I thought you meant those diving games nintendo had

so despite being one of Nintendos best selling series overall it’s stuck in the same category as FE a franchise that can’t even out sell DK which keeps going on hiatus? Because each individual game doesn’t sell enough? Even though all together it’s blown other franchises completely out the water? That’s definitely not fair

 

[Diddy Kong]

Here's a little something I made sometime back: it's the best selling games in each of the first party Nintendo IPs repped with a fighter in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: long picture

Source: https://www.installbaseforum.com/fo...hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.170/

Notes:

• Say hi to Ness peeking out on the right over there, as this indicates that Mother remains the only first party Smash IP to not have a million seller. For the record, I'm not counting stuff like the SNES mini or whatever for this.
• Game & Watch is also not present here, but that's because that is hard to gauge considering that none of the G&W models/games have individual sales figures. All we know from Celine's thread is that G&W collectively sold 43.40 million
• So I lied, there is ONE third party IP I snuck in here...and in my defense, it's the one that used to be a Nintendo IP prior to 2002. That of course, is Banjo-Kazooie. Again, I just wanted to honor its previous Nintendo IP status, and show how the bear and bird once stacked up to other Nintendo IPs during their heighday.

Animal Crossing and Splatoon surprised me. I knew they did good, but AC surpassing Pokemon Red and Blue even!? Now that's a huge one.

Kind of shameful so many good IPs never seem to outdo the first big title, especially Donkey Kong. Yeah the first SNES game is great and legendary, but all DKC games that came after it where of better quality (DKC3 is hit or miss, depends on who you ask).

Glad Zelda Breath of the Wild did so great, it'll hopefully breathe new life into the series. Also pleasantly surprised Xenoblade made the list.

 

[dream1ng]

so despite being one of Nintendos best selling series overall it’s stuck in the same category as FE a franchise that can’t even out sell DK which keeps going on hiatus? Because each individual game doesn’t sell enough? Even though all together it’s blown other franchises completely out the water? That’s definitely not fair

Yes

Kirby is exactly what a b-tier series is, a series of games that don't break the bank to make, don't do gangbusters, but are successful and certainly do well enough to keep the series safe from dormancy (though that's also because they have a steady developer). If that perpetuates long enough, the total series sales will start to add up. But that doesn't elevate the series to a-tier.

If any series straddles between a and b tiers, it's Donkey Kong. It just doesn't seem that way these days since the output is so inconsistent.

 

[fogbadge]

Yes

Kirby is exactly what a b-tier series is, a series of games that don't break the bank to make, don't do gangbusters, but are successful and certainly do well enough to keep the series safe from dormancy (though that's also because they have a steady developer). If that perpetuates long enough, the total series sales will start to add up. But that doesn't elevate the series to a-tier.

If any series straddles between a and b tiers, it's Donkey Kong. It just doesn't seem that way these days since the output is so inconsistent.

kirby has everything the a tier series have, it has never gone dormant, Nintendo themselves put Kirby front and centre all the time, he considered a Nintendo all star outside of smash and has done better than many of its sibling series that got the same treatment. Kirby is a tier, your just not looking at the franchise as a whole

you complain about people refusing to accept that arms was a success well you’re doing something similar here. Kirby is one Nintendos biggest best selling and most iconic series

 

[Dinoman96]

last I checked the wii series was still outsold by Mario and pok

This isn't about each series as a whole, it's about their best selling title. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe for example is the best selling Mario branded game, that's the point. Likewise the best selling Pokemon games are still Red & Blue.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Honestly I can see Kirby and The Forgotten Land becoming the best selling Kirby title.

Anyways, how do you guys ferl about the idea of Tom Nook, Bandana Dee and the Octolings being in a future Smash game in terms of want and likelihood?

 

[dream1ng]

kirby has everything the a tier series have, it has never gone dormant, Nintendo themselves put Kirby front and centre all the time, he considered a Nintendo all star outside of smash and has done better than many of its sibling series that got the same treatment. Kirby is a tier, your just not looking at the franchise as a whole

Nintendo does all of that with Fire Emblem now too because FE started selling better. Nowadays Nintendo seems to give FE more attention than Kirby, or at least as much. Fire Emblem has never gone dormant either. Fire Emblem was so successful it killed its sibling series, which is only now returning. But Fire Emblem is not an a-tier series.

Just being used in promotion doesn't make you an a-tier character. You can be marketable and still be b-tier. And forget being a Nintendo All-Star, Samus is treated as one of the leading women in gaming, and Dread became the best-selling title in the series without even breaking 3 mil.

I acknowledge Kirby's series total is not insignificant, but if it's made up of many (comparatively) smaller pieces, that's not the same. That's a testament to longevity and consistency, not stature. It's high frequency at a lower amplitude.

I will say that for a different company, Kirby could be a-tier. Depends on the company. When this company has Mario and Pokemon and Zelda and Smash and Animal Crossing, it's tough.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly I can see Kirby and The Forgotten Land becoming the best selling Kirby title.

Anyways, how do you guys ferl about the idea of Tom Nook, Bandana Dee and the Octolings being in a future Smash game in terms of want and likelihood?

They all seem likely, Tom Nook and Octolings could serve as additional semi/pseudo-clones of Villager and Inkling ala Isabelle.

Though Bandana Dee still has the issue in that Sakurai doesn't seem to think very much of him

 

[fogbadge]

Nintendo does all of that with Fire Emblem now too because FE started selling better. Nowadays Nintendo seems to give FE more attention than Kirby, or at least as much. Fire Emblem has never gone dormant either. Fire Emblem was so successful it killed its sibling series, which is only now returning. But Fire Emblem is not an a-tier series.

Just being used in promotion doesn't make you an a-tier character. You can be marketable and still be b-tier. And forget being a Nintendo All-Star, Samus is treated as one of the leading women in gaming, and Dread became the best-selling title in the series without even breaking 3 mil.

I acknowledge Kirby's series total is not insignificant, but if it's made up of many (comparatively) smaller pieces, that's not the same. That's a testament to longevity and consistency, not stature. It's high frequency at a lower amplitude.

I will say that for a different company, Kirby could be a-tier. Depends on the company. When this company has Mario and Pokemon and Zelda and Smash and Animal Crossing, it's tough.

you forget FE was in danger of dying and had a make or break title that determined the fate of the series. Something that never happened to Kirby. Also granted Kirby and fe are relatively close but Kirby is still on top at least in terms of their first games on switch but forgotten lands is catching up. Tropical freeze is sitting between Kirby and fe btw. Kirby is one of Nintendos top 10 best selling franchises, one of gamings top 50. It sales put it in the same domain as kingdom hearts and megaman. He is an icon of gaming

but he doesn’t get to count cause he’s hasn’t reached 25 mil. Something that is kinda rare. Something that only 4 switch games have managed

also why is splatoon the exception to your rules?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly I can see Kirby and The Forgotten Land becoming the best selling Kirby title.

Anyways, how do you guys ferl about the idea of Tom Nook, Bandana Dee and the Octolings being in a future Smash game in terms of want and likelihood?

I don't necessarily want them, but I do expect them to happen. They're much more likely than just about ant other Nintendo newcomer I can think of, even if Tom Nook and Ocotolings wouldn't be 100% unique.

 

[Opossum]

Sometimes this thread is very funny.

"ARMS sold very well, but it won't have staying power. The next game, if any, will likely flop. And nobody will talk about it ever again."

"Anyway, speaking of Golden Sun..."

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm gonna be honest this thread is very dynamic and full of many different people but Smashboards... Haha tends to attract a special crowd even still. Love it!..

Wait what are we talking about? ARMS getting another rep? Sure! I never played it do all their fighters have half court neutrals? Or is there like other FGC types like the grappler who's arms are shorter but hit like a bulldozer instead of a dump truck?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Sometimes this thread is very funny.

"ARMS sold very well, but it won't have staying power. The next game, if any, will likely flop. And nobody will talk about it ever again."

"Anyway, speaking of Golden Sun..."

Now that you mention it, I haven't talked about Billy Hatcher in awhile, have I?

 

[fogbadge]

Now that you mention it, I haven't talked about Billy Hatcher in awhile, have I?

yes lets talk about billy hatcher! and how great it'd be to smack characters in smash with huge eggs

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Sometimes this thread is very funny.

"ARMS sold very well, but it won't have staying power. The next game, if any, will likely flop. And nobody will talk about it ever again."

"Anyway, speaking of Golden Sun..."

Those statements aren’t made by the same people though.

 

[Speed Weed]

Now that you mention it, I haven't talked about Billy Hatcher in awhile, have I?

Billy Hatcher

More like

Billy Midtcher

This is now an Opa-Opa support thread

 

[TCT~Phantom]

TBH, a Golden Sun reboot makes sense to me. The Swicth has been very kind to JRPGs and you can easily have Golden Sun take up a nice that Fire Emblem or Xenobldae doesn't. I think at the very least a Golden Sun remake would probably be at least profitable for Nintendo. I think so long as this does end up selling over a million units then Nintendo would consider it a success. I mean, they bought full ownership of the IP for Astral Chain from Platinum so they probably have some plans for it again eventually, so i think Nintendo would consider it a success. If Golden Sun ended up getting into that range, I could see Nintendo considering keeping the IP going.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm saddened to say I've not played Golden Sun. But if his moves are like giant Buddha palms everywhere I'm down.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm saddened to say I've not played Golden Sun. But if his moves are like giant Buddha palms everywhere I'm down.

well those are actually just environmental moves for traversing the over world. His actual moves involve, huge rocks, growing plants and volcanic energy

and summons

 

[Dan Quixote]

TBH, a Golden Sun reboot makes sense to me. The Swicth has been very kind to JRPGs and you can easily have Golden Sun take up a nice that Fire Emblem or Xenobldae doesn't. I think at the very least a Golden Sun remake would probably be at least profitable for Nintendo. I think so long as this does end up selling over a million units then Nintendo would consider it a success. I mean, they bought full ownership of the IP for Astral Chain from Platinum so they probably have some plans for it again eventually, so i think Nintendo would consider it a success. If Golden Sun ended up getting into that range, I could see Nintendo considering keeping the IP going.

Golden Sun also seems made for this HD 2D trend since the original game was already kinda like that in its battle scenes.

 

[chocolatejr9]

yes lets talk about billy hatcher! and how great it'd be to smack characters in smash with huge eggs

See? This guy gets it.

Billy Hatcher

More like

Billy Midtcher

This is now an Opa-Opa support thread

Opa-Opa

More like

Ova-Rated

Okay, that was funnier in my head, NGL...

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Sometimes this thread is very funny.

"ARMS sold very well, but it won't have staying power. The next game, if any, will likely flop. And nobody will talk about it ever again."

"Anyway, speaking of Golden Sun..."

I think they both could relatively have damn good staying power.

In the same way that Overwatch sells its game based off its characters personalities Nintendo could easily do the same for Arms. Giving the game proper stories for each character in a traditional arcade mode would do wonders for it. The Dark Horse comic that kinda fizzled out would’ve helped as well but until we see what they do with the next game there is really no telling but I do think Arms has a bright future ahead of it.

Golden Sun on the other hand needs to release ASAP. We’re in a bit of a JRPG renaissance where even niche games like Ys, Trails, and Atelier are selling pretty damn well. Thanks in no small part to the Switch and PC install bases JRPGs are selling better than they ever have. That’s not to say that JRPG is all Golden Sun has going for it because they’re excellent games, the first two of which could use a good merger considering how connected they are. I have the utmost faith that as long as Nintendo makes the game in the most appealing format, whether that’s a full 3D remake or a Link’s Awakening remaster or anything in between, now is the time for Golden Sun to shine but it needs to happen soon.

So how about that Sin & Punishment tho.

 

[Ivander]

So I just had a Smash dream. It wasn't long and didn't show much aside from Bomberman being playable(and yes, it wasn't the Mii Costume, cause Bomberman was using Specials involving bombs) and some sort of underground lava level from Mario, but otherwise, just about all stages returned from Ultimate and the only other characters shown were characters already in Smash like Fox, Link, Kirby, Falco, etc.

One of the most notable things that I really noticed was that there was this guitar item that Bomberman, and then later Mario picked up. I'm pretty sure it was based off Barbara the Bat's guitar. It started weird at first as it was used to smack people like other physical weapons like the Killer Edge, Fire Bar and whatnot, but then Bomberman/Mario played the guitar and did this stun blast, similar to Barbara the Bat's Assist Trophy from Brawl. And from what I could tell, it was actually the Special button used to activate the stun blast. It only replaced the normal B-special, as Mario was able to use his Up-special while holding the guitar.
---
Think that could be an interesting twist for some items? Have some physical items that give a unique B-special alongside their normal attacks? Like say, Death's Scythe having a B-special where it summons out little mini-scythes that go after the closest players(that don't insta-kill over 100%) like what Death does in most Castlevania games?

 

[Speed Weed]

Opa-Opa

More like

Ova-Rated

Okay, that was funnier in my head, NGL...

I am in your walls

 

[SPEN18]

Have you guys heard of the news that the official Camelot Software website has been updated with high quality images of Isaac and Djinn?

This was brought up in the Golden Sun thread already!

By the way, we could use some more activity there.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I am in your walls

Yeah, sorry about the dead bodies in there. I meant to bury them, but I keep forgetting.

This was brought up in the Golden Sun thread already!

By the way, we could use some more activity there.

Yep: I distinctly remember commenting on that...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's a little something I made sometime back: it's the best selling games in each of the first party Nintendo IPs repped with a fighter in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: long picture

Source: https://www.installbaseforum.com/fo...hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.170/

Notes:

• Say hi to Ness peeking out on the right over there, as this indicates that Mother remains the only first party Smash IP to not have a million seller. For the record, I'm not counting stuff like the SNES mini or whatever for this.
• Game & Watch is also not present here, but that's because that is hard to gauge considering that none of the G&W models/games have individual sales figures. All we know from Celine's thread is that G&W collectively sold 43.40 million
• So I lied, there is ONE third party IP I snuck in here...and in my defense, it's the one that used to be a Nintendo IP prior to 2002. That of course, is Banjo-Kazooie. Again, I just wanted to honor its previous Nintendo IP status, and show how the bear and bird once stacked up to other Nintendo IPs during their heighday.

This is a super cool and underrated visual tool.

I'm really curious if you could make one for the third party series. Though I know that may be hard for Minecraft and Pac-Man.

 

[Geno Boost]

Here's a little something I made sometime back: it's the best selling games in each of the first party Nintendo IPs repped with a fighter in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: long picture

Source: https://www.installbaseforum.com/fo...hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.170/

Notes:

• Say hi to Ness peeking out on the right over there, as this indicates that Mother remains the only first party Smash IP to not have a million seller. For the record, I'm not counting stuff like the SNES mini or whatever for this.
• Game & Watch is also not present here, but that's because that is hard to gauge considering that none of the G&W models/games have individual sales figures. All we know from Celine's thread is that G&W collectively sold 43.40 million
• So I lied, there is ONE third party IP I snuck in here...and in my defense, it's the one that used to be a Nintendo IP prior to 2002. That of course, is Banjo-Kazooie. Again, I just wanted to honor its previous Nintendo IP status, and show how the bear and bird once stacked up to other Nintendo IPs during their heighday.

I guess the current Nintendo multi million series that don’t have a rep yet are Nintendo Land, Nintendogs, Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, Ring Fit, Excite, Golden Sun

 

[Sucumbio]

Great Sakurai read that and crossed all those off the list nice going GeeNoo.

Just kidding all are welcome in the next Smash (insert choir ahhhs and sun lit skies graphic).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I guess the current Nintendo multi million series that don’t have a rep yet are Nintendo Land, Nintendogs, Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, Ring Fit, Excite, Golden Sun

You're forgetting some like Astral Chain.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sometimes this thread is very funny.

"ARMS sold very well, but it won't have staying power. The next game, if any, will likely flop. And nobody will talk about it ever again."

"Anyway, speaking of Golden Sun..."

Golden Sun got a third game... But yeah. I see your point, reached the same conclusion a bit back.

Only franchise I'll actively complain about not getting the right attention is none other but Donkey Kong.

 

[Sucumbio]

Only franchise I'll actively complain about not getting the right attention is none other but Donkey Kong.

You've been on the boards for a min lol dang so like how did you feel when Diddy came to Brawl?

 

[SPEN18]

I guess the current Nintendo multi million series that don’t have a rep yet are Nintendo Land, Nintendogs, Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, Ring Fit, Excite, Golden Sun

As has already been pointed out, there are some missing.

Let me take the opportunity to highlight Wave Race, Rhythm Heaven, and Style Savvy, which have all had single entries reaching ~3 million in sales.

There are also some like Advance Wars where no single entry has been confirmed to cap 1 million in sales, but 1 million sales is reached easily if you combine the sales for all games in the series. So the exclusivity depends on what you mean by "multi million series."

 

[Sucumbio]

Switch is awesome like awesomer than cube or Wii it's frankly the best system I've bought since ps2

This isn't new? But posted 6 hrs ago lol

Oh it has more details

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

As has already been pointed out, there are some missing.

Let me take the opportunity to highlight Wave Race, Rhythm Heaven, and Style Savvy, which have all had single entries reaching ~3 million in sales.

There are also some like Advance Wars where no single entry has been confirmed to cap 1 million in sales, but 1 million sales is reached easily if you combine the sales for all games in the series. So the exclusivity depends on what you mean by "multi million series."

Wave Race has had two, very excellent, games actually. Blue Storm is still one of the most beautiful games on the GameCube.

Edit: for some reason I read this post as “single entry franchises that have passed 3 million” I se my mistake now though. Still gave me a chance to shill Blue Storm so yeah y’all go play that and 1080 Avalanche. Two of the best sports games out there.

 

[Geno Boost]

If we get a Nintendog rep wouldn’t RoboPup make the most sense since he is the fictional one? We didn’t get a Nintendog rep due to them being basically real animals but I think RoboPup is the only one that could have the special case of becoming playable and he is the most unique one

As has already been pointed out, there are some missing.

Let me take the opportunity to highlight Wave Race, Rhythm Heaven, and Style Savvy, which have all had single entries reaching ~3 million in sales.

There are also some like Advance Wars where no single entry has been confirmed to cap 1 million in sales, but 1 million sales is reached easily if you combine the sales for all games in the series. So the exclusivity depends on what you mean by "multi million series."

I didn’t expect Style Savvy to be multi million but it’s seems it is
Curious how would that be represented in smash

 

[Laniv]

If we get a Nintendog rep wouldn’t RoboPup make the most sense since he is the fictional one? We didn’t get a Nintendog rep due to them being basically real animals but I think RoboPup is the only one that could have the special case of becoming playable and he is the most unique one

I didn’t expect Style Savvy to be multi million but it’s seems it is
Curious how would that be represented in smash

I have quietly wanted Savvy Stylist in Smash since Smash 4 lol

I haven't thought of a moveset for her, but I know it'd be hilarious to see her in

 

[dream1ng]

you forget FE was in danger of dying and had a make or break title that determined the fate of the series. Something that never happened to Kirby.

Right, which shows that never going dormant doesn't mean you're a-tier.

Also granted Kirby and fe are relatively close but Kirby is still on top at least in terms of their first games on switch but forgotten lands is catching up. Tropical freeze is sitting between Kirby and fe btw.

These are all less than 1 mil apart (Forgotten Land aside, as its current sales are unknown), that's not a significant difference, and if anything shows how generally on-par they are.

Kirby is one of Nintendos top 10 best selling franchises, one of gamings top 50. It sales put it in the same domain as kingdom hearts and megaman.

Don't have anything new to say about this one re: sales. Like I said, a testament to consistency, not necessarily stature.

Kirby has around the same sales as BioShock, but BioShock did it in three (and one collection), while Kirby is at 30-something to get to the same level.

He is an icon of gaming

Samus is an icon of gaming. Metroid isn't a-tier.

but he doesn’t get to count cause he’s hasn’t reached 25 mil. Something that is kinda rare. Something that only 4 switch games have managed

I'm not saying that's the threshold, that just demonstrates the Switch bump and the disparity between series.

also why is splatoon the exception to your rules?

Splatoon's not an exception to my "rules", it's a-tier too. Splatoon 2 is gonna go past 15 mil when all is said and done. It's just not as up there as the other ones.

you complain about people refusing to accept that arms was a success well you’re doing something similar here. Kirby is one Nintendos biggest best selling and most iconic series

I've called Kirby successful in most of my posts on the matter. I said it in the very post you quoted. Do you think being b-tier means a series isn't a success? That's awful picky. That would be like saying 3H and Dread weren't successes.