Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

Er, that's false. It's hard to determine a good place to begin elaborating without further prompt or explanation of what your threshold for being "marketed" is, though.

What? You do realize that every game Nintendo releases gets marketed, right? And we don't have a character from every game Nintendo has released.

Touché; I think the best I can describe it is how certain IPs have a bigger push than others, even if some don't pan out. ARMS for example had a bigger push than Astral Chain or Mole Mania.

It doesn't nor shouldn't keep non-marketed characters from being playable, but that's my threshold on judging whether characters get snubbed for playable status.

 

[SPEN18]

Touché; I think the best I can describe it is how certain IPs have a bigger push than others, even if some don't pan out. ARMS for example had a bigger push than Astral Chain or Mole Mania.

It doesn't nor shouldn't keep non-marketed characters from being playable, but that's my threshold on judging whether characters get snubbed for playable status.

Maybe your threshold is just way higher than most people's, but there are actually very many characters with as much or more marketing than a good chunk of the current roster.

 

[Opossum]

Touché; I think the best I can describe it is how certain IPs have a bigger push than others, even if some don't pan out. ARMS for example had a bigger push than Astral Chain or Mole Mania.

It doesn't nor shouldn't keep non-marketed characters from being playable, but that's my threshold on judging whether characters get snubbed for playable status.

As someone who wholeheartedly loves Mole Mania, Astral Chain is absolutely nowhere near as ignored by Nintendo as Mole Mania was.

Astral Chain actually had marketing and was considered very successful. Mole Mania was thrown out to die in an era overtaken by Pokémania.

 

[Quillion]

Maybe your threshold is just way higher than most people's, but there are actually very many characters with as much or more marketing than a good chunk of the current roster.

I know fogbadge mentioned Toad and Bandana Dee, but Toad (Peach's retainer) has the disadvantage of being a helper for Peach in Smash already while mostly doing stuff in spin-offs (and many agree Waluigi is already the spin-off king). Bandana Dee is marketed to be sure, but all of it seems to be at HAL's behest rather than Nintendo's since HAL does seem a bit out of step with Nintendo (albeit not to the level of Pokémon Company and Game Freak).

Is there anyone else?

 

[fogbadge]

I know fogbadge mentioned Toad and Bandana Dee, but Toad (Peach's retainer) has the disadvantage of being a helper for Peach in Smash already while mostly doing stuff in spin-offs (and many agree Waluigi is already the spin-off king). Bandana Dee is marketed to be sure, but all of it seems to be at HAL's behest rather than Nintendo's since HAL does seem a bit out of step with Nintendo (albeit not to the level of Pokémon Company and Game Freak).

Is there anyone else?

well first of all chrom got in while still being a move. Dedede and PP are both still background characters. That’s not really a reason to keep him out. Second when you say market what do you mean? Do you mean consent import roles in games or a lot of merch? Cause toad has both

also Hal is a separate company so of course they do their own thing

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Bomberman definitely feels like a character whose absence is a bit more notable in hindsight, especially given that he's one of the few Konami owned figures that's gotten consistent releases in the past 5 years. Even his promotion to Deluxe-esque Mii Costume almost feels like a pseudo correction in the latter half of the game's life; the best practical compromise Nintendo/Sakurai could have done in including more of the IP in Smash without making him full-blown playable.

 

[dream1ng]

Touché; I think the best I can describe it is how certain IPs have a bigger push than others, even if some don't pan out. ARMS for example had a bigger push than Astral Chain or Mole Mania.

It doesn't nor shouldn't keep non-marketed characters from being playable, but that's my threshold on judging whether characters get snubbed for playable status.

When it comes to unrepresented series, it's not really contingent on marketing, it's contingent on reception. Nintendo marketed Labo pretty prolifically, but it didn't stand the test of time and that thing is done. Maybe they gave less fanfare to Astral Chain, but the title performed as well or better than their expectations for it, it will probably receive a sequel, and then likely wind up included. It's not fair to judge things that lapsed past the timeframe for major content anyway, like Astral Chain or Ring Fit. Nintendo marketed ARMS, but it was too late for base. Those other IPs came out two years later.

On the other hand, Nintendo tried to absolutely bury Xenoblade outside Japan, but its reception despite that carried it to becoming a series, and getting Shulk included. Unrepresented series come down to reception and timing.

Also, just calling anything "non-marketed" doesn't make sense. Even if some things receive more fanfare than others, they all get marketing. I would agree the series that Nintendo gives less attention to may have a harder time... but that's also, to some extent, the market speaking. And it's certainly not the case of Nintendo throwing out titles like Astral Chain to die. The game got a completely normal amount of marketing for its niche and budget.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

When it comes to unrepresented series, it's not really contingent on marketing, it's contingent on reception. Nintendo marketed Labo pretty prolifically, but it didn't stand the test of time and that thing is done. Maybe they gave less fanfare to Astral Chain, but the title performed as well or better than their expectations for it, it will probably receive a sequel, and then likely wind up included. It's not fair to judge things that lapsed past the timeframe for major content anyway, like Astral Chain or Ring Fit. Nintendo marketed ARMS, but it was too late for base. Those other IPs came out two years later.

On the other hand, Nintendo tried to absolutely bury Xenoblade outside Japan, but its reception despite that carried it to becoming a series, and getting Shulk included. Unrepresented series come down to reception and timing.

Also, just calling anything "non-marketed" doesn't make sense. Even if some things receive more fanfare than others, they all get marketing. I would agree the series that Nintendo gives less attention to may have a harder time... but that's also, to some extent, the market speaking. And it's certainly not the case of Nintendo throwing out titles like Astral Chain to die. The game got a completely normal amount of marketing for its niche and budget.

And in general Nintendo's own history has had examples of unexpected sleeper hits that did far better than expected despite typical marketing and games that ultimately underperformed despite big advertising efforts. The DK franchise in the aughts managed to do both at the same time; console titles receiving the big push like Donkey Konga doing worse with each entry or Jungle Beat managing mild sales while nearly decade old ports of the DKC trilogy were selling a million plus.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Even if it's Zeena?

Now here's another question: apart from Sonic, what franchise deserves a newcomer most, and who would you want to see?

I think it would be cool if Megaman got another character, there's a lot of potential content to pull from and they already have high quality models of the other Megamen should they keep with Ultimate's asthetic in the future.

I would personally want either the Battle Network or Star Force version of Megaman. Those two are more different than the other Megamen or someone like Protoman or Bass since they come from RPG's instead of platformers.

 

[SPEN18]

I know fogbadge mentioned Toad and Bandana Dee, but Toad (Peach's retainer) has the disadvantage of being a helper for Peach in Smash already while mostly doing stuff in spin-offs (and many agree Waluigi is already the spin-off king). Bandana Dee is marketed to be sure, but all of it seems to be at HAL's behest rather than Nintendo's since HAL does seem a bit out of step with Nintendo (albeit not to the level of Pokémon Company and Game Freak).

Is there anyone else?

Well, you've made it hard for me to tell what example you'd be content with. To the examples already given, one of your responses was simply giving another possible reason for them not getting in that doesn't have to do with marketing (Toad), and the other was speculating on why the marketing they do receive isn't important to Nintendo (Dee). I feel like you could try to turn one of those things on almost any example I could give...

If you don't feel any first party characters were "snubbed" in Ult, then you don't feel that way, but saying it's because no possible 1P newcomers have been marketed would be an inaccuracy unless you have a supremely high threshold for saying something is "marketed."

What I can say is that almost any majorly or even moderately supported first party character has received significant marketing at one point in time, at least on the scale of characters already on the roster that the vast majority of people are fine with being there.

 

[dream1ng]

I know fogbadge mentioned Toad and Bandana Dee, but Toad (Peach's retainer) has the disadvantage of being a helper for Peach in Smash already while mostly doing stuff in spin-offs (and many agree Waluigi is already the spin-off king). Bandana Dee is marketed to be sure, but all of it seems to be at HAL's behest rather than Nintendo's since HAL does seem a bit out of step with Nintendo (albeit not to the level of Pokémon Company and Game Freak).

Is there anyone else?

Simply 'who gets marketing' is totally unaligned with how Smash does it. Dozens of Pokemon are marketed who aren't on the roster. Most prolific Fire Emblem characters get marketed, like Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude. The rotating one-offs of Zelda and Kirby all get marketed. EMMI got an amiibo. The entire main cast of XC3 is being marketed right now. The last DK game marketed Dixie and Cranky (and the port Funky), and not K. Rool, because he wasn't there. ARMS was marketed by marketing each one of its characters, as fighting games usually do it.

You just can't include every character who gets marketing, because marketing is very broad.

 

[Quillion]

When it comes to unrepresented series, it's not really contingent on marketing, it's contingent on reception.

Maybe "reception" isn't the right word; by your description it could be more contingent on a game meeting/exceeding expectations.

And it's certainly not the case of Nintendo throwing out titles like Astral Chain to die. The game got a completely normal amount of marketing for its niche and budget.

Yeah, but still less than ARMS. Astral Chain was marketed for its niche while ARMS was marketed as "the next big Nintendo IP". I guess you could say that ARMS was hurt by its high expectations rather than audience reception.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

ARMS I think was ultimately hurt by too many people potentially turned off by the motion control emphasis and the central concept just not getting much of casual audiences or hardcore fighting game fans. A lot of Nintendo's ventures into well known genres work because they have a spin that makes it novel, while still approachable. Smash is a 2D fighter based around platform battles, Mario Kart is a racer with item/obstacles, Splatoon a shooter with travel via ink and covering the arena, etc.

In that sense, ARMS status as a third person fighter did make it stand out, but may have rendered it simply too different for mass audiences to dig into, even during the sparse year of releases that was 2017. In the grand scheme, its sales numbers were fine; it's just clear that it wasn't lighting in a bottle again like Splatoon was.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe "reception" isn't the right word; by your description it could be more contingent on a game meeting/exceeding expectations.



Yeah, but still less than ARMS. Astral Chain was marketed for its niche while ARMS was marketed as "the next big Nintendo IP". I guess you could say that ARMS was hurt by its high expectations rather than audience reception.

This sounds like some of the arguments that people would have argued about Shulk.

"Not marketed" is a very hard thing to quantify. I mean look man, you can't even describe it yourself. I think what we should be focusing on are success, legacy, sales and popularity. Because even major Pokemon stars have lulls in marketing.

 

[dream1ng]

Maybe "reception" isn't the right word; by your description it could be more contingent on a game meeting/exceeding expectations.

Well, that is reception. That's commercial reception.

Yeah, but still less than ARMS. Astral Chain was marketed for its niche while ARMS was marketed as "the next big Nintendo IP". I guess you could say that ARMS was hurt by its high expectations rather than audience reception.

And ARMS sold double what Astral Chain did...

It's weird to see the continued downplaying of ARMS success. It's a new IP that crossed over 2 million... that's more than fine, that's an absolute success. People who were anticipating a Splatoon out of it had their expectations way out of whack, that game's accomplishments are an aberration. Other than Splatoon, ARMS opened higher than any (non-Blue Ocean) Nintendo IP since... the 64, I think.

And Nintendo wouldn't have bothered to designate a spot in Smash for the series if they had no future plans for it - if they saw it as a disappointment. I'm fairly confident it will return.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well, that is reception. That's commercial reception.


And ARMS sold double what Astral Chain did...

It's weird to see the continued downplaying of ARMS success. It's a new IP that crossed over 2 million... that's more than fine, that's an absolute success. People who were anticipating a Splatoon out of it had their expectations way out of whack, that game's accomplishments are an aberration. Other than Splatoon, ARMS opened higher than any (non-Blue Ocean) Nintendo IP since... the 64, I think.

And Nintendo wouldn't have bothered to designate a spot in Smash for the series if they had no future plans for it - if they saw it as a disappointment. I'm fairly confident it will return.

I think the reason people downplay ARMS is because of changes in internet culture. Instead of saying something isn't for me, people just **** on it instead.

ARMS has a particular audience and it's enough to get by, but the people who didn't like it just **** on it because everyone ****s on anything anymore.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Yeah, but still less than ARMS. Astral Chain was marketed for its niche while ARMS was marketed as "the next big Nintendo IP". I guess you could say that ARMS was hurt by its high expectations rather than audience reception.

Also, barely anything was competing with ARMS for attention at the time. It was either market ARMS or market nothing. I don't know that it would have gotten the same amount of attention if it came out now.

 

[Sucumbio]

We need more sanitation!

 

[Opossum]

ARMS I think was ultimately hurt by too many people potentially turned off by the motion control emphasis and the central concept just not getting much of casual audiences or hardcore fighting game fans. A lot of Nintendo's ventures into well known genres work because they have a spin that makes it novel, while still approachable. Smash is a 2D fighter based around platform battles, Mario Kart is a racer with item/obstacles, Splatoon a shooter with travel via ink and covering the arena, etc.

In that sense, ARMS status as a third person fighter did make it stand out, but may have rendered it simply too different for mass audiences to dig into, even during the sparse year of releases that was 2017. In the grand scheme, its sales numbers were fine; it's just clear that it wasn't lighting in a bottle again like Splatoon was.

Astral Chain was literally revealed as a "One More Thing" at the end of a Direct. It's absolutely incorrect to say it wasn't marketed to a general audience.

EDIT: Ah **** Smashboards scrolled and made me reply to the wrong post.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

I'm gonna join the ARMS defense team. It has a ton of potential as a new IP, has some fun lore ideas, great characters (including, y'know, my favorite game character and my most wanted for Smash), and overall, I just really like what Nintendo did with it.

Someday we'll get the sequel we deserve.

 

[SPEN18]

And Nintendo wouldn't have bothered to designate a spot in Smash for the series if they had no future plans for it - if they saw it as a disappointment. I'm fairly confident it will return.

The spot designated in Smash could have just been to help the current game; ARMS wasn't at the peak of its relevancy when added to Smash but it still shares a console with Ult. Characters get in all the time for being relevant when it comes time to decide the roster, irrespective of whether those characters will continue to be relevant. It started with various items as early as Ness in 64 or Sheik in Melee, and has continued since, whether you look at the way they've handled PKMN/FE or, if you hate that example, things like getting Palutena in 4. When they choose to add Palutena, it's because Uprising is a big game on a contemporary platform and not because they know if it will ever get a sequel. Sometimes a character's Smash inclusion can drum up their popularity to the extent that they enter into a bigger role within the long-term marketing scheme (for ex. Lucario, Greninja, Ike), but my sense is that this is more reaction to positive reception than plan from the start. While future plans for a character could be a factor in some cases, my observation is that such things usually take a back seat to more immediate concerns of marketing games on the platforms contemporary with the Smash game they're being added to.

And ARMS can be a success without generating a sequel; sometimes successful games don't end up with sequels for one reason or another.

This is not to pick on ARMS in particular, and they very well could have future plans for that series. The game also gets unnecessary hate for being, well, being what it was made to be: a game in part meant to sell the idea of the Joy Con. But ARMS having a Smash spot is not a surefire indicator of future plans (it can't hurt, though, I'd imagine).

 

[Quillion]

Well, that is reception. That's commercial reception.

Commercial reception is just one component of meeting expectations though. There's also the factor of the expectations that the publisher sets for the title.

I suppose the latter is part of the reason why GaaS "release incomplete" remains a common strategy among companies despite so much player pushback. The "release incomplete" approach allows the publisher to bail on the game before they invest too much.

Anyway, I'm actually super indifferent to whatever character gets into Smash now. If characters like Muddy, Isaac, Sami, Dixie, Saki, or even Toad get in, good for them IDRGAD. I just can't really call them "snubs" if they don't.

I'm gonna join the ARMS defense team. It has a ton of potential as a new IP, has some fun lore ideas, great characters (including, y'know, my favorite game character and my most wanted for Smash), and overall, I just really like what Nintendo did with it.

Someday we'll get the sequel we deserve.

I really enjoyed ARMS too, but I think Nintendo, along with every other major video game publisher, is best off leaving it alongside many other fresh ideas as a one-shot IP. Not everything needs sequels, let alone franchises.

 

[Stratos]

From the Bomberman genre there are various colors and could serve as known as Bomberman's alternate costumes. If Bomberman is coming as a newcomer in future Super Smash Bros games, he was also a playable character in DreamMix TV World Fighters, so why not in the Super Smash Bros series?

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Again, ARMS sold on par with (it actually outsold it a bit) Xenoblade 2, the latter of which a majority of people would probably consider a rip-roaring success

Granted, they probably had different budgets and such, but knowing the scope of Xeno 2, I'd be shocked if ARMS' was significantly higher.

Idk, just feels like a weird double standard that people consider one a bit of flop and the other this big hit.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Arms just really didnt stick in the public mind.

 

[Quillion]

Again, ARMS sold on par with Xenoblade 2, the latter of which a majority of people would probably consider a rip-roaring success

Granted, they probably had different budgets and such, but knowing the scope of Xeno 2, I'd be shocked if ARMS' was significantly higher.

Idk, just feels like a weird double standard that people consider one a bit of flop and the other this big hit.

Arms just really didnt stick in the public mind.

ARMS certainly sold a lot more than people give it credit for.

But I don't think it really has a future as a series. I don't see a potential sequel as anything other than a flop.

And that's perfectly fine. Again, not every enjoyable game (which ARMS is) needs a sequel.

 

[osby]

Arms just really didnt stick in the public mind.

To be fair, the same can be said for a lot of old franchises that Nintendo fans are far more forgiving to.

I've always thought it's weird how people who blame games with being forgettable can's stop talking about them, which is absolutely the case for ARMS.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

If Viridi becomes a playable fighter, but Reset Bomb Forest stays...I suggest pulling a Toon Link/Spirit Tracks stage and having Arlon take over for her when she's fighting on Reset Bomb Forest.

Watching a KI:U playthrough and wishing even harder that Viridi was in Smash? Who, me?

 

[Quillion]

If Viridi becomes a playable fighter, but Reset Bomb Forest stays...I suggest pulling a Toon Link/Spirit Tracks stage and having Arlon take over for her when she's fighting on Reset Bomb Forest.

Watching a KI:U playthrough and wishing even harder that Viridi was in Smash? Who, me?

I actually hope they'll go harder with playable characters being background NPCs on their home stages when not on the field. They should do so retroactively.

They could add Mario and Peach to Melee Peach's Castle, (BotW) Link gliding around Plateau Tower, Meta Knight flying around the Halberd, (female) Byleth hanging around Garreg Mach, Joker among his fellow Phantom Thieves in Mementos, Ness biking around Onett, you know things like that.

And if we finally get a standalone Bowser's Castle, make Bowser sit on some throne in there.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Have you guys heard of the news that the official Camelot Software website has been updated with high quality images of Isaac and Djinn?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Have you guys heard of the news that the official Camelot Software website has been updated with high quality images of Isaac and Djinn?

I have not.

 

[dream1ng]

Even if the stars all somehow align and there's a new Golden Sun, it's funny and tragic that the trend of the games releasing at the absolute worst times for Smash would continue.

 

[Dinoman96]

This is what True Blue Warrior's talking about:

株式会社キャメロット – 株式会社キャメロットのオフィシャルサイトです。

www.camelot.co.jp

Something that is worth pointing out: Emily Rogers, who has proven herself to be a fairly reliable Nintendo insider over the last couple of years, has stated that apparently that there IS internal interest within Nintendo for Golden Sun...it's just about finding the right dev team for it.

Nintendo: "Switch business has exceeded our expectations", plans to expand game development capability by $900m, $2.7bn for theme parks, stores

Reform Factor 5 Nintendo.

famiboards.com

I'll put it this way: Internally, in the last ten years, Nintendo has shown more interest in Golden Sun than people realize.

Nintendo likes Golden Sun. The big thing holding it back is finding the right developer/studio to work on it. Because Camelot has its plate full with Mario sports, and Mario sports makes Nintendo a lot of money.

If were up to me, I think Nintendo should find a studio to re-make Golden Sun 1 and 2. Remakes would be much, much easier to develop than a brand new Golden Sun.

 

[fogbadge]

Other than Splatoon, ARMS opened higher than any (non-Blue Ocean) Nintendo IP since... the 64, I think.

i'd need to check but since the ds/wii probably

Again, ARMS sold on par with (it actually outsold it a bit) Xenoblade 2, the latter of which a majority of people would probably consider a rip-roaring success

Granted, they probably had different budgets and such, but knowing the scope of Xeno 2, I'd be shocked if ARMS' was significantly higher.

Idk, just feels like a weird double standard that people consider one a bit of flop and the other this big hit.

it feels like some just don't want to change their initial opinion on the game. like how some people still call kirby one of nintendo's b series

 

[dream1ng]

i'd need to check but since the ds/wii probably

Which IP?

it feels like some just don't want to change their initial opinion on the game. like how some people still call kirby one of nintendo's b series

It is one of Nintendo's b-tier series. The a-tier is stuff like Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Smash, Splatoon and AC.

 

[Dinoman96]

Here's a little something I made sometime back: it's the best selling games in each of the first party Nintendo IPs repped with a fighter in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: long picture

Source: https://www.installbaseforum.com/fo...hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.170/

Notes:

• Say hi to Ness peeking out on the right over there, as this indicates that Mother remains the only first party Smash IP to not have a million seller. For the record, I'm not counting stuff like the SNES mini or whatever for this.
• Game & Watch is also not present here, but that's because that is hard to gauge considering that none of the G&W models/games have individual sales figures. All we know from Celine's thread is that G&W collectively sold 43.40 million
• So I lied, there is ONE third party IP I snuck in here...and in my defense, it's the one that used to be a Nintendo IP prior to 2002. That of course, is Banjo-Kazooie. Again, I just wanted to honor its previous Nintendo IP status, and show how the bear and bird once stacked up to other Nintendo IPs during their heighday.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I just remembered.

Waluigi wasn't the most painful assist trophy deconfirm for me. Nay, it was Nintendog. Their first game was one of the bestselling titles on one of the bestselling consoles in video games. And I do see moveset potential with all their funky tricks and cool toys. If the Duck Hunt dog can get in, I don't see why Nintendog can't.

Nintendog's assist trophy isn't even that good anyway.

Makes as much sense as Wii Fit Trainer to me honestly.

I also never got why Waluigi was thought of as a guaranteed newcomer for Ultimate , it was quite clear he didn't quite match the popularity of the characters that made it in. I could see him as a newcomer next game tho.

 

[dream1ng]

Here's a little something I made sometime back: it's the best selling games in each of the first party Nintendo IPs repped with a fighter in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: long picture

Source: https://www.installbaseforum.com/fo...hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.170/

Notes:

• Say hi to Ness peeking out on the right over there, as this indicates that Mother remains the only first party Smash IP to not have a million seller. For the record, I'm not counting stuff like the SNES mini or whatever for this.
• Game & Watch is also not present here, but that's because that is hard to gauge considering that none of the G&W models/games have individual sales figures. All we know from Celine's thread is that G&W collectively sold 43.40 million
• So I lied, there is ONE third party IP I snuck in here...and in my defense, it's the one that used to be a Nintendo IP prior to 2002. That of course, is Banjo-Kazooie. Again, I just wanted to honor its previous Nintendo IP status, and show how the bear and bird once stacked up to other Nintendo IPs during their heighday.

What's crazy is that Ring Fit would be eighth on this list, between WFT and Inkling.

Can't see them not returning to that well.

 

[fogbadge]

Which IP?


It is one of Nintendo's b-tier series. The a-tier is stuff like Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Smash, Splatoon and AC.

wii, brain training and Nintendogs

so being one of Nintendos top 10 selling ips having many fans around the world and more games than many others and it’s a B franchise? Absurd

Here's a little something I made sometime back: it's the best selling games in each of the first party Nintendo IPs repped with a fighter in Smash Bros.

Spoiler: long picture

Source: https://www.installbaseforum.com/fo...hardware-sales-data-from-1983-to-present.170/

Notes:

• Say hi to Ness peeking out on the right over there, as this indicates that Mother remains the only first party Smash IP to not have a million seller. For the record, I'm not counting stuff like the SNES mini or whatever for this.
• Game & Watch is also not present here, but that's because that is hard to gauge considering that none of the G&W models/games have individual sales figures. All we know from Celine's thread is that G&W collectively sold 43.40 million
• So I lied, there is ONE third party IP I snuck in here...and in my defense, it's the one that used to be a Nintendo IP prior to 2002. That of course, is Banjo-Kazooie. Again, I just wanted to honor its previous Nintendo IP status, and show how the bear and bird once stacked up to other Nintendo IPs during their heighday.

I think that might be a bit outdated

oh yeah Rex. I forgot when we were talking about snubbed characters and there’s no disputing that one

 

[Dinoman96]

I think that might be a bit outdated

Don't think it is? I double checked the Install Base thread I linked to and everything seems pretty up to date to me. What is "outdated" here to you, exactly?