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I'm not in the mood to take a side on this exhausted debate today but I really don't think anyone was that adamant about MK8D not happening - I mean, the Wii U was a relative flop and its games were not cross compatible with Switch. Making the game available to a new potential playerbase, and porting over a game that is otherwise not accessible on the new console, are strong incentives to bring MK8 to Switch that do not exist for Smash Ultimate.
Although I'm recognizing now you are referring to DLC content. So disregard that - but in a general sense I would avoid the Mario Kart and Smash comparisons since these two games were born under and will live on through very different circumstances.
...which is something that, again, happens all the time. Redundant ports that are like selling a DLC pack at full-price.
And remember, I don't want an Ultimate Deluxe. That doesn't mean I'm gonna be willfully unaware of all the times a game has been ported to a system that can already play it.
What new stages would you guys like to see?
Wondaria Remains from Forgotten Land would be really cool, i doubt it will get over Natural Plains, but it would still be cool, regardless.
In the unlikely scenario we get a Genshin Impact rep, i'd like Mondstadt to be a stage, even though i've never played Genshin, when i saw a youtuber going through that town, i really liked the design of the town. Peraphs the stage could take stage in the town's stone walls.
Echoes of Wisdom - Rifts - Probably the closest I'll get to a Distortion World stage and honestly could be cool.
Tears of the Kingdom - The Depths - They probably would pick the Sky Islands, but I think you could play around with the gloom and the stage lighting up in different areas.
Metroid Dread - Ferenia - I would love to have a stage themed after the Chozo.
Xenoblade Chronicles X - Sylvalum - My favorite area in that entire game, it'd be beautiful to have.
Pokemon SV - Area Zero - A unique area that is central to the game's plot, it would be fun to have the Paradoxes hanging around.
...which is something that, again, happens all the time. Redundant ports that are like selling a DLC pack at full-price.
And remember, I don't want an Ultimate Deluxe. That doesn't mean I'm gonna be willfully unaware of all the times a game has been ported to a system that can already play it.
If you don't want it, then why do you even keep countering with "well, it's gonna happen anyway, so tough luck" other than for the sake of being cynical?
If you don't want it, then why do you even keep countering with "well, it's gonna happen anyway, so tough luck" other than for the sake of being cynical?
I'm not saying it's going to happen, I just think backwards compatibility is not the reason why it won't. Notice how I only respond like that when people default to assuming backwards compatibility will stop a port.
If the next Smash doesn't have everyone, it'll be because "me like big number" doesn't stop technical limitations from existing, not SSBU still being playable.
I don't think we're getting Ultimate Deluxe. If Sakurai's new game is Smash, it currently has the same amount of development time as Ultimate. I really doubt an enhanced port would take so long to be developed.
I don't think we're getting Ultimate Deluxe. If Sakurai's new game is Smash, it currently has the same amount of development time as Ultimate. I really doubt an enhanced port would take so long to be developed.
Yeah, it depends on what he does with his time if it is the same amount of development time as Ultimate. Many things can happen during that time, while many other things can't and must be not used. I am sure Sakurai will do more things to make the next Smash Bros. game have more of what Ultimate did not have, which means it probably won't be Everyone is Here again, and there may likely be cuts in this game.
So, you think, like, 3 years after MK8D came out, if someone said "I want more MK8D content", the response they got was like "Oh yeah, that's probably gonna happen!"
So on an unrelated note, I've been thinking about the Splatoon idols again. I'm motivated to convince everyone that Splatoon is... pretty likely to get more than just a semiclone, given its massive presence across the Nintendo brand for a decade, so it's a common topic from me. I've talked about it plenty, and the tide has seemingly shifted on this board, so it's been cool to see. Although my discussion usually centers around my favorite duo, Off the Hook. I acknowledge however that Squid Sisters has just as much going in their favor, if not more from some angle, so I wanted to break it down and see if that helps me solidify my expectations any further.
Let's break it down a bit. Condensing as not to completely vomit a wall of text but I hope you'll give it a read.
-Prominent in every Splatoon game, active players in single player campaigns
-By extension, are the 'figureheads' of Splatoon idols and unlikely to really wane in prominence
-Similar builds make them simpler to implement simultaneously a la Ice Climbers
-Had Mii Costumes added to Smash Ultimate via DLC
-Currently have more precedent to appear in crossover material, appearances in Animal Crossing and Mario Maker come to mind. Although I consider this a neutral point / fun fact off the convenient timing - they had amiibo at the most opportune time for these cross collaborations. If Off the Hook existed, would we have gotten the same?
-Their favorite weapons are, arguably, not as good a fit for the game (Roller is already used by Inkling, Sniper might be a bit unwieldy in a platform fighter)
-Similar designs make them less visually striking and less efficient at conveying distinct archetype / gameplay role from one another
-Have proven staying power through a returning role in Splatoon 3's DLC campaign
-Splatoon 2 is the best selling game in the series, a victim of poor timing to receive meaningful Ultimate content
-Are demonstrably the most popular idol team - Grand Festival had them at a whopping 57% of the popular vote (trumping the other two by more than 2x)
-Striking design contrast with strong silhouette and body language that conveys their respective archetypes (the brusier and the setplay character, probably)
-Favorite weapons are two brand new types (Dualies, Splatbrella) unrepresented by Inkling and capable of strong new gameplay opportunities
-Diversity points. Kind of just wanted to address this as a neutral point, but the opportunity to add arguably Nintendo's most popular black character and a duo enthusiastically embraced by LGBT fans is a really compelling bang for your buck
-Have fully articulated Figma figures. Again, kind of a timing thing, Splatoon got a line of these around Splatoon 2's launch and never again. Pretty cool though, right? We know how Sakurai likes his posable figures...
-Design contrast may simultaneously be a shortcoming, with Squid Sisters being easy to model off one another and share attacks
-Further campaign appearances are limited to DLC, and Smash traditionally emphasizes base game content
-Literally the first characters you see when you boot up their games, so they are instantly recognizable to anyone who has played them
-Among the most prominently marketed and popular Nintendo characters of the last decade
-Each have two sets of amiibo for their debut and Splatoon 3 appearances respectively
-Appeared in virtual live concerts as recently as 2022 and 2024 respectively to commemorate Splatoon 3
-May have to compete with Octoling if they are developed as a unique fighter
-Two in one fighters are susceptible to development woes and have a consistent history of being scrapped by Sakurai since Brawl
I think the takeaway here is that Squid Sisters are, on paper, the easier choice and perhaps the one most synonymous with the brand as well. They are traditionally in more prominent roles, they've got seniority and have demonstrated more crossover appeal thus far. While Off the Hook is the showstopper - the most popular idol team by a wide margin, and harbors the most exciting moveset potential and contrast. Both are tremendously popular and marketable brand ambassadors, so you really can't go wrong either way, but if either of them make it it's just gonna come down to which angle is more important to Sakurai.
For the sake of conversation I'm probably inclined to stick with Off the Hook, in the name of 'flavor', but consider it a blanket prediction for one or the other. Either way - I stand by the Splatoon idols being some of the more overlooked (at large) and pressing character additions for the next game, and I think both of these options are overqualified by now.
I know moveset for characters may not change for the next possible game, but imagine yoshi could throw eggs like Yoshi's Island as a addition to his Up-B.
So, you think, like, 3 years after MK8D came out, if someone said "I want more MK8D content", the response they got was like "Oh yeah, that's probably gonna happen!"
Still, Ultimate and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe are two different games made under different circumstances. Plus, you replied to my "That's not gonna happen" comment by saying that is what they said about Mario Kart 8 Deluxe?
Unfortunately, if I am reading this right, saying "I want more content" does not equate to saying "It's not gonna happen". Even if we take into account your thing about "Oh yeah, that is probably going to happen" as sarcasm from the hypothetical guy, you did not directly specify who said that. You did not mention or provide a source on who said that, so you did not provide a good example here.
Is there a team currently available at Bandai to port Ultimate? I'd imagine most of Ultimates devs would be working on Tekken 8 or Sakurai's Project, and it doesn't really make sense to outsource a port given how Smash is usually handled.
Regardless, the Mk8 comparison does nothing for me because the way the two series generate sales simply isn't the same.
90% of Smashes hype comes from speculation about it. Whose going to join next? How will they play? What stage could they come with? And Ultimate Deluxe answered all these questions 3-6 years ago. Farting out a port on Switch 2 isn't going to get the sought after fanfare because I doubt this hypothetical skeleton crew devving the game is going to add much to it beyond a roster rebalance and a couple bells and whistles. It's simply too much in relicensing costs for a product they've already to sold not just to hardcore fans, but at this point tons of casuals who simply wouldn't care to buy the same game twice.
Mk8 in that regard benefited from being on a dying console, Ultimate has no such luxury.
Is there a team currently available at Bandai to port Ultimate? I'd imagine most of Ultimates devs would be working on Tekken 8 or Sakurai's Project, and it doesn't really make sense to outsource a port given how Smash is usually handled.
Regardless, the Mk8 comparison does nothing for me because the way the two series generate sales simply isn't the same.
90% of Smashes hype comes from speculation about it. Whose going to join next? How will they play? What stage could they come with? And Ultimate Deluxe answered all these questions 3-6 years ago. Farting out a port on Switch 2 isn't going to get the sought after fanfare because I doubt this hypothetical skeleton crew devving the game is going to add much to it beyond a roster rebalance and a couple bells and whistles. It's simply too much in relicensing costs for a product they've already to sold not just to hardcore fans, but at this point tons of casuals who simply wouldn't care to buy the same game twice.
Mk8 in that regard benefited from being on a dying console, Ultimate has no such luxury.
Exactly! I mean, the Switch is a successful console compared to the Wii U, which was more so a failure, and a console the original Mario Kart 8 was on. I mean, they could add new modes and characters to an Ultimate Deluxe, but even then, there is still not much to do with such a version of a game as you said.
I used to be in the "Ultimate Deluxe is more likely" camp, mostly because i think Smash Bros. has kind of peaked and i have no idea were they can take the series after Ultimate (personal opinon and i'm completely fine with begin proved wrong if Smash 6 happens) without disapointing people if there's less characters/stages, by the way, i don't really care about the "100 fighters" milestone, i don't really care how many exact amount of characters or stages a game has has as long they're fun to me, like im having a blast with Rivals 2 and that game only has 11 characters and 12 stages., so i would buy Smash 6 regardless of the amount of countent it launches with as long it looks fun, but for a lot of people exact amount of content matters.
Before Mario Kart 9 i also was with the same situatio and i though we'd get a Mario Kart 8 Deluxe plus instead of a Mario Kart 9, but i've been proven wrong and Mario Kart (as a series) is not over yet, after MK9 was anounced i started to get more open to the idea that Smash 6 isn't just a hypotetical for "what if" discussions and something that could actually happen, because well, if Mario Kart another series that i though has peaked got a new entry, i guess smash bros can too, maybe not the best logic, but for me it makes sense.
Well, they were, but once the majority of T8's development was finished, that's when we got those extra spirit events and the Sora amiibo patch...and the random update last October that fixed an issue with GSP.
Either way, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe was lucky since Mario Kart Tour(A.K.A. 9) existed. This helped give actual reasons to keep going. If it was a traditional MK game on the console, 8 Deluxe would've been done.
Ultimate doesn't have any of these options. There is no alternate Smash Bros. game to borrow from. It already finished up. It's also a massive pain to re-license everyone for a measly port(even with some add-ons). A 3rd Fighter's Pass is unironically cheaper to do, which obviously didn't happen.
It was already super unlikely, due to mainly licensing, but it's pretty much dead in the water anyway. And yes, "backwards compatibility" is a major reason to why it won't happen. It's a waste of resources when people can already play Ultimate on both. That said, we're getting a new game down the line either way. Whether it's what Sakurai is working on right now or not. What'll be the most interesting is the newcomers and new mechanics introduced. Ultimate added some fun stuff, and also found a way to deal with the massive time spent on working on it(via Spirits over Trophies). It's just the huge amount of characters naturally took a while(especially with some who aren't ported over among the veterans, who require new programming. Sure, it's less than straight-out newcomers like Incineroar, but it's still a lot of coding to do).
I'm hoping Mario Kart 10 also has some really fun newcomers and other veterans from Tour(9) come over. I want Dixie and Dr. Mario in a more traditional MK.
I’m wondering how it’d go if they ported Ultimate but got the entire dev team to add a full game’s worth of new content on top of it, instead of the usual small skeleton crew that ports a game and adds only a tiny bit of new stuff. It wouldn’t be super fresh-feeling and it wouldn’t show off the Switch 2’s specs that well, though, and Nintendo would probably prefer if people bought both Smash 6 and Ultimate if they didn’t have Ultimate yet.
So on an unrelated note, I've been thinking about the Splatoon idols again. I'm motivated to convince everyone that Splatoon is... pretty likely to get more than just a semiclone, given its massive presence across the Nintendo brand for a decade, so it's a common topic from me. I've talked about it plenty, and the tide has seemingly shifted on this board, so it's been cool to see. Although my discussion usually centers around my favorite duo, Off the Hook. I acknowledge however that Squid Sisters has just as much going in their favor, if not more from some angle, so I wanted to break it down and see if that helps me solidify my expectations any further.
Let's break it down a bit. Condensing as not to completely vomit a wall of text but I hope you'll give it a read.
-Prominent in every Splatoon game, active players in single player campaigns
-By extension, are the 'figureheads' of Splatoon idols and unlikely to really wane in prominence
-Similar builds make them simpler to implement simultaneously a la Ice Climbers
-Had Mii Costumes added to Smash Ultimate via DLC
-Currently have more precedent to appear in crossover material, appearances in Animal Crossing and Mario Maker come to mind. Although I consider this a neutral point / fun fact off the convenient timing - they had amiibo at the most opportune time for these cross collaborations. If Off the Hook existed, would we have gotten the same?
-Their favorite weapons are, arguably, not as good a fit for the game (Roller is already used by Inkling, Sniper might be a bit unwieldy in a platform fighter)
-Similar designs make them less visually striking and less efficient at conveying distinct archetype / gameplay role from one another
-Have proven staying power through a returning role in Splatoon 3's DLC campaign
-Splatoon 2 is the best selling game in the series, a victim of poor timing to receive meaningful Ultimate content
-Are demonstrably the most popular idol team - Grand Festival had them at a whopping 57% of the popular vote (trumping the other two by more than 2x)
-Striking design contrast with strong silhouette and body language that conveys their respective archetypes (the brusier and the setplay character, probably)
-Favorite weapons are two brand new types (Dualies, Splatbrella) unrepresented by Inkling and capable of strong new gameplay opportunities
-Diversity points. Kind of just wanted to address this as a neutral point, but the opportunity to add arguably Nintendo's most popular black character and a duo enthusiastically embraced by LGBT fans is a really compelling bang for your buck
-Have fully articulated Figma figures. Again, kind of a timing thing, Splatoon got a line of these around Splatoon 2's launch and never again. Pretty cool though, right? We know how Sakurai likes his posable figures...
-Design contrast may simultaneously be a shortcoming, with Squid Sisters being easy to model off one another and share attacks
-Further campaign appearances are limited to DLC, and Smash traditionally emphasizes base game content
-Literally the first characters you see when you boot up their games, so they are instantly recognizable to anyone who has played them
-Among the most prominently marketed and popular Nintendo characters of the last decade
-Each have two sets of amiibo for their debut and Splatoon 3 appearances respectively
-Appeared in virtual live concerts as recently as 2022 and 2024 respectively to commemorate Splatoon 3
-May have to compete with Octoling if they are developed as a unique fighter
-Two in one fighters are susceptible to development woes and have a consistent history of being scrapped by Sakurai since Brawl
I think the takeaway here is that Squid Sisters are, on paper, the easier choice and perhaps the one most synonymous with the brand as well. They are traditionally in more prominent roles, they've got seniority and have demonstrated more crossover appeal thus far. While Off the Hook is the showstopper - the most popular idol team by a wide margin, and harbors the most exciting moveset potential and contrast. Both are tremendously popular and marketable brand ambassadors, so you really can't go wrong either way, but if either of them make it it's just gonna come down to which angle is more important to Sakurai.
For the sake of conversation I'm probably inclined to stick with Off the Hook, in the name of 'flavor', but consider it a blanket prediction for one or the other. Either way - I stand by the Splatoon idols being some of the more overlooked (at large) and pressing character additions for the next game, and I think both of these options are overqualified by now.
I do wonder if the route of Octoling as an alt would alleviate the issue of Splatoon ballooning in representatives so quickly with both idol groups making it in.
If that’s the case, then echoes are going to be harder for most people.
For me, this has a knock-on effect of making echoes for Pikmin or Xenoblade the more obvious choices.
Speaking of which, if Oatchi gets in, what will people’s opinions on Moss as an echo fighter be?
As far as the Booster Course Pass the more surprising thing (at least to me) wasn't so much its existence as its timing; it feels like the sort thing of thing that would have appeared in 2018, maybe 2019 at the absolute latest. Popping up in a 2022 Direct suggests to me that Nintendo themselves initially underestimated the sheer scope of MK8 Deluxe's success, so with profit potential now recognized and a realization that Mario Kart Tour's tracks would be lost when the game shuts down? It made sense to just do a notable (albeit weirdly late) DLC pack to take advantage of the millions of homes MK was in by that point with content they could somewhat easily implement.
With Ultimate already having its DLC campaigns and lacking an easy means to pull notable elements from to stick in SSBU, I think it's likely any Smash work being done now is on a new game because the resources and time necessary might as well be for the new proverbial stone Nintendo can get blood from in a few years.
What new mechanics or game modes they could add in Smash 6 to make it diferent from Ult?
For Mechanics? Smash Aerials and Air Dashes are the only ones i can think off, and god knows how balanced they would be.
For modes? I always though a 2D dungeon crawler type of mode would be fun and diferent enough to the main gameplay, but i dunno how well recived that would be.
What new mechanics or game modes they could add in Smash 6 to make it diferent from Ult?
For Mechanics? Smash Aerials and Air Dashes are the only ones i can think off, and god knows how balanced they would be.
For modes? I always though a 2D dungeon crawler type of mode would be fun and diferent enough to the main gameplay, but i dunno how well recived that would be.
I'm hoping for air grabs on grapplers like DK and Bowser. These characters can already kind of do it with their command throws, but I think it'd make characters like Ganon and Incineroar more threatening in places they're otherwise considered vulnerable.
Not really a new mechanic, but Gliding returning for the winged cast would be fun. I still have the muscle memory of Brawl using Metal Knight and trying to make it all across Temple, I even threw a match the other week cause I misinputted it in Ultimate just on instinct.
I just like seeing groups of characters get a unique trait because they all share something in common. I'm also a Ridley main who stays winning in this scenario, could you tell?
I do wonder if the route of Octoling as an alt would alleviate the issue of Splatoon ballooning in representatives so quickly with both idol groups making it in.
If that’s the case, then echoes are going to be harder for most people.
To clarify, I just meant those points are in favor of both parties equally and less as an endorsement of both idol teams making it in at once. I think that'd be a lot to stomach, but I do think Octoling occupying half of Inkling's alts is a premise that we don't talk about as much as we should.
But yeah, by default my assessment is just trying to emphasize the likelihood of Inkling, an Octoling clone and one or the other idol group clocking Splatoon in at a total of 3-4 characters depending on which angle you want to look at it. If we want to consider Octoling as an echo fighter to be a standalone character, if we want Callie / Marie or Pearl / Marina to quantify as separate characters like Pythra or Pokemon Trainer. Depending on how involved their team synergy is I would probably consider them one character, but probably would occupy the amount of dev time that two characters would.
There's also the issue of new content. Ultimate focused so much on bringing back as much old content as possible that new content had to be sacrificed. The game had less unique newcomers at launch than Melee (a game that was heavily rushed to be a launch title for the Gamecube) while having the same number of clones. They ended up having to create an entirely new term out of thin air (Echo Fighter) just so that people wouldn't complain about the newcomer roster having clones be the majority for the first time ever, with 6 clones to only 5 unique fighters. And also it effected the stages too. Bringing back nearly every stage in the series and updating most of them with a modern coat of paint left very little room for new stages, as only 4 new stages were added at launch. And quite a bit of other content had to be sacrificed as the majority of the single player budget was used on World of Light, Spirits, and Classic Mode. Stage Builder and Home Run Contest had to be added in post-launch updates, Multi-Man Smash was severely gimped with the loss of half its unique modes (and All-Star Mode becoming integrated into Multi-Man Smash instead of being its own separate thing) and many of Smash for Wii U's modes like Coin Matches, Event Matches, Master/Crazy Orders, and Target Blast were all cut from the game entirely. However, Stamina Mode is now a selectable match mode like Time and Stock Matches instead of being locked behind Special Smash, and two completely new modes were added, those being Squad Strike and Smashdown, so it wasn't all take and no give here. This is one of the many reasons why I don't think an Ultimate port will happen.
There's also the issue of new content. Ultimate focused so much on bringing back as much old content as possible that new content had to be sacrificed. The game had less unique newcomers at launch than Melee (a game that was heavily rushed to be a launch title for the Gamecube) while having the same number of clones. They ended up having to create an entirely new term out of thin air (Echo Fighter) just so that people wouldn't complain about the newcomer roster having clones be the majority for the first time ever, with 6 clones to only 5 unique fighters. And also it effected the stages too. Bringing back nearly every stage in the series and updating most of them with a modern coat of paint left very little room for new stages, as only 4 new stages were added at launch. And quite a bit of other content had to be sacrificed as the majority of the single player budget was used on World of Light, Spirits, and Classic Mode. Stage Builder and Home Run Contest had to be added in post-launch updates, Multi-Man Smash was severely gimped with the loss of half its unique modes (and All-Star Mode becoming integrated into Multi-Man Smash instead of being its own separate thing) and many of Smash for Wii U's modes like Coin Matches, Event Matches, Master/Crazy Orders, and Target Blast were all cut from the game entirely. However, Stamina Mode is now a selectable match mode like Time and Stock Matches instead of being locked behind Special Smash, and two completely new modes were added, those being Squad Strike and Smashdown, so it wasn't all take and no give here. This is one of the many reasons why I don't think an Ultimate port will happen.
That is exactly something I have tried to say recently; the binging back all characters over more content thing. I mean, bringing back all characters and adding more new content would be easier said and done, would it? It just takes up a lot of development time to bring all characters back before adding in more content.
Ultimate being the "let's focus on getting EVERYTHING back" game rather than a usual Smash game does open possibilities for things that felt "left out" to have a second chance in Smash Switch 2.
First-party character-wise, the only major thing missing from the time frame between Smash 4 and Ultimate is probably Elma. Not saying she's the only one but she's the only omission that's truly glaring from the 2014-2018 time frame, a point that retroactively became much stronger due to Xenoblade Chronicles's continued success.
But this opens a LOT of possibility for stages, Assist trophies, items, etc.
Yeah, I'm still iffy on Sakurai's Secret New Game being Smash, but you could easily make a new Smash just based on whatever missed the boat for SSBU and have that as a launch title. Which is kinda funny, because I once made a roster built solely around the Switch and slowly added more veterans and older requests and now I'm realizing that's a more realistic scenario than I expected it to be
As much as it would be cool, the biggest problem for this is that they would still need to do all of the character models and the work with character rights for the next Smash Bros. Like it can't be "Do this little thing and then all of the sudden, all of the models and whatnot will suddenly appear in the next Smash Bros.'s data and work with next Smash Bros.", the next Smash Bros. needs to have all of the stuff in it to begin with to work like that.
Basically, it would be alot like Amiibo. The game that it's compatible with needs to have the stuff all-ready to begin with to acknowledge the Amiibo's function, the Amiibo wouldn't suddenly add brand new data to the game.
Maybe Sakurai's next big project isn't even Smash. Maybe he could be creating an entirely new IP or maybe he's planning on bringing back another one of Nintendo's old IPs like he did Kid Icarus.
Maybe Sakurai's next big project isn't even Smash. Maybe he could be creating an entirely new IP or maybe he's planning on bringing back another one of Nintendo's old IPs like he did Kid Icarus.
I just can't see Smash being a late console release. It's always been released early in the console's lifespan, and its massive success is the reason why.
I honestly think it's Smash, of course i could be wrong.
If it's a brand new game and the game started development in 2022, then it could release sometime in 2026, 4 year of dev time seems higher than usual, but if they want a brand new feeling, then i could see the dev time begin bigger than usual.
