Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It feels odd that the wand couldn't be used for their Final Smash. Just replace Shadow Mario with the Koopalings using their magic wands to cover the screen(with magic paint).

Honestly, I'd have been down with that. Using the wands for paint and also never becoming Shadow Mario so it feels a little more reasonable for the Koopalings to be able to do this.

 

[ninjahmos]

My problem with this is some Pokemon don't even represent their types well. Lucario doesn't use any Steel-type moves, Greninja doesn't use any Dark-type moves, Jigglypuff doesn't use any Fairy-type moves, and Ivysaur doesn't use any Poison-type moves. There's still potential to add Pokemon with these types and differentiate them from the Pokemon we already have.

Well, on the plus side, some Pokémon are better represented in Smash than others. Pikachu is an Electric-type (and basically the mascot), Squirtle is a Water-type and Charizard is a Fire-type. I can't speak for Incineroar though. I know he's supposed to be a Fire-type as well, but in Smash I've mostly seen him use wrestling moves.

Apparently, Incineroar is also supposed to be a Dark-type, but I haven't seen him use any Dark moves in Smash either.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well, on the plus side, some Pokémon are better represented in Smash than others. Pikachu is an Electric-type (and basically the mascot), Squirtle is a Water-type and Charizard is a Fire-type. I can't speak for Incineroar though. I know he's supposed to be a Fire-type as well, but in Smash I've mostly seen him use wrestling moves.

Apparently, Incineroar is also supposed to be a Dark-type, but I haven't seen him use any Dark moves in Smash either.

Literally Darkest Lariat. His Final Smash is also a souped up version of the Z-Move associated with the same move. But a lariat is also a common move in wrestling and Sakurai actively compared it to Zangief's so I can see why people wouldn't see it as a Dark move.

They don't look dark but they are Dark-type moves. As for fire... honestly yeah, there's not a single Fire move. Only some normal moves given fire effects because of his own typing.

 

[Noipoi]

I’ll never truly be happy until there’s a dragon type in Smash.

I’m not counting final smashes like Mega Charizard X, who isn’t even in the game anymore anyways.

 

[Gorgonzales]

And you'd be wrong because we literally had this discussion before.

I will repeat myself that Jr. is in the Clown Car BECAUSE it's what Jr. had become synonymous with.
The Koopalings are in the Clown Car in Smash because of Jr., not the other way around.

I don't have a problem with Junior being in the Clown Car. I think it's very much worth noting that the Clown Car and the Paintbrush can coexist from recent media like Super Nintendo World and Bowser's Fury.

I think Junior should be allowed to evolve; the Clown Car was all he had in the times of Smash 4 and it basically eclipsed the paintbrush in its entirety, but now now that he uses both I don't see why the Paintbrush can't be incorporated in a more significant way. I'm not asking for the Clown Car to be axed entirely, I want him to wield the Paintbrush too.

What would the Koopalings wield? Their wands? I guess it could work. The main problem I have with them is that they look very weird since they have to be shrunk down to fit the Car. And like it or not, they do homogenize Junior and themselves because they all share a set of same generic animations. There's no way the dev team didn't make Jr's animations without the other SEVEN characters they had to account for in mind.

I guess you can solve these problems by giving the Koopalings unique taunt animations (which has a precedent since alts can have different cosmetic animations as proved with Byleth), victory screens, and really working with body morphing/visual trickery to make them fit in the car but grow into their actual sizes when they're outside of it. The Stoopid Unikorn's suggestion of having them use the wands for the Final Smash also works.

These would solve basically all the issues I have with this character at the moment. I'm questioning if it's worth all that extra work to keep the Koopalings around, but if people like them that much then Nintendo definitely has the resources to make them feel like not afterthoughts. If they're really going to go for this concept, then they should go all the way.

 

[ninjahmos]

You know what's another change I'm kind of hoping they'll make for Sonic? His victory theme. They ripped it straight from Sonic '06, which I guess probably fit for Brawl, but that game is considered Sonic's worst game. So why not take the Act Clear theme from an actually good Sonic game?

 

[Guynamednelson]

(which has a precedent since alts can have different cosmetic animations as proved with Byleth)

Not just Byleth, the two Pokemon Trainers have completely different sets of animations.

I would say it'd be 4x the workload of giving male and female Byleth slightly different animations, but...so were all of Red and Leaf's different animations, which cover a lot more than Byleth.

 

[PeridotGX]

I appreciate your optimism towards incineroar

I don't think it's entirely incorrect. VGC has grown massively in the past decade, especially in the Switch era. It's definitely not an esport on the same level as, say, League or Fortnite, but it's probably a core part of the "Pokemon Experience". And Incineroar has almost inarguably been the face of VGC since it was introduced. Adding a brand new character to represent VGC would be one thing - but because it's a veteran, the workload would be a lot smaller and it becomes more reasonable. I'm not going to say it's a lock, but I think a lot of people are underestimating it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Not just Byleth, the two Pokemon Trainers have completely different sets of animations.

I would say it'd be 4x the workload of giving male and female Byleth slightly different animations, but...so were all of Red and Leaf's different animations, which cover a lot more than Byleth.

Pokemon Trainer is also never in the frontline so giving the two genders wildly different animations will never affect gameplay

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pokemon Trainer is also never in the frontline so giving the two genders wildly different animations will never affect gameplay

Well neither would giving the Koopalings unique victory animations

 

[JCKirbs]

Since we're on the subject of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings…

How do you guys feel about Jr.'s moveset? Do you think it's fine the way it is, or would you want to change something?

It was definitely improved in Ultimate even in mere subtler ways, though I wish some of his moves like Cannonball and Mechakoopa had less endlag.

In the right hands Mechakoopa is kinda busted though, I will admit. It's probably one of the most intricate 'projectiles' in the game, with its delayed detonation meaning that it can activate just after a throw or any kind of launching move to ensure a KO at high %s. Otherwise, throwing or dropping it will cause it to detonate on impact which can also be very useful off of a stage. It's really cool, and it made me enjoy the character even more as I learned the game as a whole.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well neither would giving the Koopalings unique victory animations

That is fair enough. But I think only this one needs change. if any.

The one where they're inside the Clown Car is perfectly fine as is and the other one where they're outside of it is just them petting the vehicule. No need to go crazy.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Z-A postdates Sakurai's new project plan. Scarlet/Violet weren't even done development when Sakurai chose the roster in 2021.

The bigger issue is Greninja having to compete against Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, Jigglypuff, and Mewtwo in terms of priority. Maybe Greninja can outprioritize Jigglypuff or Mewtwo, but that still requires at least 3 veterans (5, if you want to separate Pokemon Trainer) to already be on the roster.

I mean, that depends on IF that project plan was Smash.

Considering Ultimate's plan was finished in 2015, it began development in February 2016, and it came out in December 2018, I have a hard time believing that Sakurai would finish the project plan in late 2021/early 2022 and then work on this Smash game specifically for like 3-4 years considering Smash usually goes for 2 and a half years, sometimes closing in on 3. ESPECIALLY if the game's roster is going to be smaller like a lot of people assume.

I still personally think a timeline of Sakurai deciding the project plan earlier this year or maybe late last year, starting development this year, and the game coming out in late 2026/early 2027 is the most likely scenario.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't. The Game Awards doesn't deserve anything. It's a dragged out, obnoxious ad-riddled event run by out-of-touch celebrities where 10% of it is actually focused on reflecting on the past year of gaming.

The optimal way to watch it is to have it on in the background while talking or playing a game with friends and actively making fun of it.

I remember "watching" the one after Joker was revealed and they had Green Day. I was like "oh, I like Green Day. Let's see this concert." The chat started going "Ew boomer music!" and I was so confused 'cuz like, Green Day is good, at least in my experience.

And then they were horrible.

I don't know what song they went with that day, but it wasn't one that I had heard, and I hated it. One of the most baffling experiences I've had with anything gaming related.

The one where they're inside the Clown Car is perfectly fine as is and the other one where they're outside of it is just them petting the vehicule. No need to go crazy.

Iggy stays in the Clown Car and slapps his butt at the losers.

 

[SPEN18]

The fact it's been acknowledged officially multiple times says otherwise.

Kieran was given a competitively themed Incineroar in Indigo Disk, AND Noipoi 's current avi is an existing ad.View attachment 396248


If anything people here undermine how much a presence in the modern day it has just because it's in a specific niche compared to something like Lucario.


I mean hell, to my knowledge it's the only one whose Tera Raid got a promotional poster.
View attachment 396249
(Taken from the official Pokémon YouTube page)

So the great defense of Incineroar is a couple of poster advertisements and a DLC boss? Tbh that's kind of small beans for a Pokemon in terms of promotion.

Maybe I should clear up my wording, though, because I can see some possible confusion. I'm not disputing that Incineroar has held great notoriety within the VGC sphere, it's just...overall that's only so big a deal in the grand scheme of things. Not to mention liable to fizzle out very quickly as relevance within VGC metagames can be a fickle thing. And it doesn't mask that his overall popularity is fairly middling, esp. in comparison to Smash giants like Lucario and Greninja, but even also to some others who aren't in Smash.

 

[Noipoi]

Incineroar should stay because he’s fun to play and I like him

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'll admit to initially being surprised that Jr. primarily used the Junior Clown Car for fighting rather than his Paint Brush, but in hindsight, it made total sense.

If they had incorporated the Paint Brush more into his moveset, though, I always thought the Koopalings could remain alts by changing it out for their own magic wands. You don't have to make the Paint Brush's attacks hyper referential to Sunshine specifically. Heck, even in the few games it does appear in after Sunshine, Jr. rarely ever uses it the for exact same abilities he did in his debut. It's mostly just used for launching projectiles, creating AoE traps, and sometimes partially obscuring the screen. The Koopalings launch fairly basic projectiles with their similarly-designed wands as well, and the other abilities can easily be explained as being doable by magic.

At the end of the day, though, Jr. and the Koopalings still have a solid moveset. I'm mostly just glad that they didn't go the route of giving Jr. a down-special to transform into what would've probably just been another Mario clone in the same game that Doc returned.

 

[Slime Scholar]

The real crime with the Koopaling alts is that they've limited Bowser Jr. to having only 1 color.

The optimal way to watch it is to have it on in the background while talking or playing a game with friends and actively making fun of it.

This is the only way I'm able to stomach TGA. I have to bug a friend into watching it with me and we just end up riffing on it like Stalter and Waldorf from The Muppets.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So the great defense of Incineroar

And just like that, not bothering reading the rest.

The point was the idea that people were "overblowing the VGC popularity" when it's something that Nintendo/Game Freak actively acknowledge. Nothing more, nothing less.

But stay hating I guess.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Incineroar should stay because he’s fun to play and I like him

I like this opinion and I don't even play Incineroar.

 

[Louie G.]

Incineroar's saving grace doesn't have much to do with marketability or external popularity to me, it's the hope that a dynamic and unique playstyle in Smash is worth enough to Sakurai and the team to want to maintain. If the approach to narrowing down Pokemon rests largely on variety and flair, and what the character is actively adding to the game, then Incineroar is a no-brainer to keep around. My worry is that will not be the main priority for a series like Pokemon.

Honestly losing our most centralized grappler moveset would be an unfortunate and deeply felt loss, to me. Others in the past have acknowledged Incineroar isn't the only character who can do this, we can add a new character who does, but I feel like it's not really Smash's philosophy to hop between characters in that way. If they felt it important to keep a grappler on the roster they'd probably keep the one they already have. Or I suppose a new one would simply get in with no regard to Incineroar one way or another - but I wouldn't expect his playstyle to be translated directly toward a more "relevant" or popular character, they'd probably have something a lot different going on.

I guess the bottom line is if we have to lose Incineroar, I really hope he doesn't stay gone. I think Smash has helped make a great case for him in its own right, in just being an all around fun and notable character among the pack. That means more to me these days then Pokemon popularity polls or whatever but I can't say for certain if anyone who matters feels the same way. Gauging Smash fan response to him over the last few years though I think he would be someone that people vocally request back if we unfortunately see him cut off next game.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I don't have a problem with Junior being in the Clown Car. I think it's very much worth noting that the Clown Car and the Paintbrush can coexist from recent media like Super Nintendo World and Bowser's Fury.

I think Junior should be allowed to evolve; the Clown Car was all he had in the times of Smash 4 and it basically eclipsed the paintbrush in its entirety, but now now that he uses both I don't see why the Paintbrush can't be incorporated in a more significant way. I'm not asking for the Clown Car to be axed entirely, I want him to wield the Paintbrush too.

What would the Koopalings wield? Their wands? I guess it could work. The main problem I have with them is that they look very weird since they have to be shrunk down to fit the Car. And like it or not, they do homogenize Junior and themselves because they all share a set of same generic animations. There's no way the dev team didn't make Jr's animations without the other SEVEN characters they had to account for in mind.

View attachment 396257View attachment 396258View attachment 396260View attachment 396259

I guess you can solve these problems by giving the Koopalings unique taunt animations (which has a precedent since alts can have different cosmetic animations as proved with Byleth), victory screens, and really working with body morphing/visual trickery to make them fit in the car but grow into their actual sizes when they're outside of it. The Stoopid Unikorn's suggestion of having them use the wands for the Final Smash also works.

These would solve basically all the issues I have with this character at the moment. I'm questioning if it's worth all that extra work to keep the Koopalings around, but if people like them that much then Nintendo definitely has the resources to make them feel like not afterthoughts. If they're really going to go for this concept, then they should go all the way.

Jr.'s animations were clearly designed with Jr. in mind. The fact they had to modify the Koopalings just to fit again points to the undeniable fact they are affected by Jr. and not vice versa. It certainly isn't them that's why he doesn't use the paintbrush since as I pointed out, this happens:

If Sakurai really wanted it, he could have given Jr. the paintbrush in the Clown Car and the Koopalings would just have to use it just like they use Clown Cars to begin with and turn into Shadow Mario to use said paintbrush, with the in-game "lore" being "Bowser Jr. loaned them the paintbrush/identical copies".
But he didn't. Not because of the Koopalings but because it simply didn't fit what he had in mind for Jr., just like why DK was never given his Coconut Gun, Incineroar wasn't given the ability to shoot fire from the belt, Captain Falcon doesn't use the gun in his holster, etc.


Take the Koopalings out of the equation and just give Jr. palettes based on them and nothing would change whatsover for Jr. How he was designed in Smash is centered around what Sakurai saw in Jr. specifically in his Clown Car with the Koopalings being more of an afterthought to highlight the new 8-Player Smash feature.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as Incineroar being the most grappler in Smash, the only characters that I think would end up being in that vicinity would be Zangief, Potemkin, or King, and all of those are long shots for the time being.

Also, in the case of Potemkin and King, they'd have some gimmick that'd make them weird to play with Potemkin's lack of a dash (or a very strange one if they just decide to make Hammerfall his dash), and King's Tekken mechanics, especially if he somehow brings over Tekken's throw mechanics.

 

[Guynamednelson]

As far as Incineroar being the most grappler in Smash, the only characters that I think would end up being in that vicinity would be Zangief, Potemkin, or King, and all of those are long shots for the time being.

Also, in the case of Potemkin and King, they'd have some gimmick that'd make them weird to play with Potemkin's lack of a dash (or a very strange one if they just decide to make Hammerfall his dash), and King's Tekken mechanics, especially if he somehow brings over Tekken's throw mechanics.

Well there's also the wrestlers from that NES game Pro Wrestling if we ever get another random NES character.

 

[Louie G.]

Well there's also the wrestlers from that NES game Pro Wrestling if we ever get another random NES character.

I always thought this would be such an obvious retro pull, but isn't there some kind of restriction on this game? It hasn't been rereleased at all* and to my knowledge it doesn't have any spirits either. A real shame because I'd really, really love to see these guys reimagined for Smash and given distinctly flashy new wrestling kits but that seems like a stretch given the precedent that has been established thus far.

*Oh wait, scratch that, apparently it's on Switch? I must have missed it, that's cool. Still don't know why it has no presence in Smash Ultimate though.

 

[Opossum]

As far as Incineroar being the most grappler in Smash, the only characters that I think would end up being in that vicinity would be Zangief, Potemkin, or King, and all of those are long shots for the time being.

Also, in the case of Potemkin and King, they'd have some gimmick that'd make them weird to play with Potemkin's lack of a dash (or a very strange one if they just decide to make Hammerfall his dash), and King's Tekken mechanics, especially if he somehow brings over Tekken's throw mechanics.

Damn, Mike Haggar didn't even get a throwaway mention here.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Still don't know why it has no presence in Smash Ultimate though.

It could be there's not enough art for spirits, but at the same time they use sprites rather than high-res art for stuff like Mother characters who don't have clay models, and all of the Ice Climber spirits even though Popo and Nana have this arcade flyer:

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Damn, Mike Haggar didn't even get a throwaway mention here.

Too afraid of the PIPE.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Smash Ideas: Command grabs that can drag the character and their opponent down to the blast zone now K.O. the player with the highest percent first. This would apply to Flying Slam, Monkey Flip, Flame Choke, Heaven's Door, Inhale (both versions), Blunderbuss, Suplex, Space Pirate Rush, Nosferatu, and Chomp. It doesn't apply to regular grabs like Cargo Throw or stall-then-fall attacks like Soaring Slash or Cross Chop.

 

[SPEN18]

And just like that, not bothering reading the rest.

The point was the idea that people were "overblowing the VGC popularity" when it's something that Nintendo/Game Freak actively acknowledge. Nothing more, nothing less.

But stay hating I guess.

I can't make you read the post, but in the next paragraph I explain that I don't dispute that he has the VGC notoriety, I just think people overblow how significant that is to his overall merit or notoriety, and them acknowledging it in the form of a couple posters and a DLC boss is not really moving the needle on that point for me.
It should hopefully be clear from my statements that I didn't actually think your post was, like, supposed to be the entire case for Incineroar or something. It's just exaggerative rhetoric to make a point, but apologies if there was any offense taken.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Damn, Mike Haggar didn't even get a throwaway mention here.

I forgor.

He'd be good too, though I don't know how grapplerey they'd make him in favor of him being an item character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I forgor.

He'd be good too, though I don't know how grapplerey they'd make him in favor of him being an item character.

He could always be both and it would be annoying and I would think it's funny until I would fight against one and then wallow in despair

 

[Ivander]

The Game Awards...it is what it is. I don't care much about it, but I pay attention just in case. I just listen then move on. No mocking, no pessimism for announcements I'm not interested in, just interest for announcements I get interested in and disinterest for announcements I don't get interested in. That's all I do and that's all that is needed.

Edit: Oh, and last year's Game Awards gave us Visions of Mana, so last year's had at least one good thing.

 

[Noipoi]

I only pay attention to the Game Awards when I know for a fact that a game I’m interested in will have some sort of announcement.

Couldn’t care less otherwise.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He could always be both and it would be annoying and I would think it's funny until I would fight against one and then wallow in despair

Honestly making him a heavy big body who produces battering and/or throwing items and has special moves that interact with any items that he may be holding and also he can SPD you sounds like something they'd do. lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I always thought this would be such an obvious retro pull, but isn't there some kind of restriction on this game? It hasn't been rereleased at all* and to my knowledge it doesn't have any spirits either. A real shame because I'd really, really love to see these guys reimagined for Smash and given distinctly flashy new wrestling kits but that seems like a stretch given the precedent that has been established thus far.

*Oh wait, scratch that, apparently it's on Switch? I must have missed it, that's cool. Still don't know why it has no presence in Smash Ultimate though.

From what I understand is that there was copyright limbo with the game as a result of the designer/programmer (Masato Masuda) who has since passed a decade ago.

Copyright for the game was under Try Company, Ltd. rather than Nintendo, and Try would become Human Corporation which would go on to create Fire Pro Wrestling also by Masuda. Human would go bankrupt in 2000 and Spike Chunsoft would take over the franchise, while Masuda would pass away in 2014 and the series kind of died in 2017.

Really hard to tell what exactly the **** happened, but it seems copyright was an issue for Nintendo until more recent, assuming they even hold the copyright now or if Spike Chunsoft does after that cluster of events.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Game Awards? E3 was so much better.

 

[92MilesPrower]

The real crime with the Koopaling alts is that they've limited Bowser Jr. to having only 1 color. This is the only way I'm able to stomach TGA. I have to bug a friend into watching it with me and we just end up riffing on it like Stalter and Waldorf from The Muppets.
View attachment 396262

I unironically hope that these guys are the Muppets that appear at the TGAs this year, and roast Geoff and the "please wrap it up" thing.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

TGA is a major business event designed to highlight certain major industry titles and advertise upcoming ones. That's not a criticism, just the practical reality of what Knightley's business model is with it. If there's a game you like that's been nominated (and maybe even wins) an award, great, but if your favorites aren't, then I don't think it's really a snub as much as it those associated with the Game Awards having their own preferences and incentives to nominate certain games (Elden Ring DLC getting in the GOTY category is prove enough of that).

I've watched the full thing only one time in late 2019, and the focus (arguably to the point of excess) on various AAA games that largely looked the same to me pretty much made me realize it's not really an award show designed for my tastes. I'm glad many enjoy it, and there's something to be said for having a single big night of hype, but the emphasis it has is simply not one I'm really interested it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Game Awards? E3 was so much better.

We used to be able to have both.

Those were simpler times.

When the Dorito Pope wasn't in charge of every single compilation of game announcements.