Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Let's talk about the Koopalings and my favorite one, Jr.

In particular I find it interesting how the fandom's perspective around Jr has shifted. Way back in the day, Jr. wasn't very well liked amongst several fanbases. Sure lots of people liked him, but he was despised by a lot of people. And a big part of that was because people didn't like how he replaced the Koopalings. It's kind of hard to imagine how, but when they brought back Jr. AND the Koopalings is New Super Mario Bros Wii, it was a big deal. People cheered for their return. Now they're kind of tolerated while Jr. seems to be more and more beloved.

I can only imagine younger members of the fanbase who grew up with Jr. have joined the discussion and a lot of the Jr. haters have aged out or have mellowed out. I also think Jr.'s increased prominence and characterization have really helped improve his image. He's not just a brat anymore and while he's not usually intimidating enough to be a final boss, he is enough to carry the plot of multiple games. He's kind of an underdog villain and that has an appeal.

What do you think of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings? Personally I prefer Jr. by a lot. I genuinely love the little guy. And the rest of the Koopalings kind of blend together (even if I like Iggy a lot.)

As characters, all of them are pretty meh.

Larry is my main in Mario Kart 8 though so I do like his design.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Pikachu's safe, and Lucario's probably safe. After that, it's anyone's game. Most of the other Pokemon have a solid reason to stay, so it'll just be up to the developers to figure out their priorities.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

given none of them had ever driven a Clown Car prior to Smash Bros.

This doesn't count?

 

[Guynamednelson]

This doesn't count?

View attachment 396251

Well, none of them have driven solo Clown Cars before.

Let alone the mass-produced model that was made up for Smash.

 

[Will]

[]

This doesn't count?

View attachment 396251

NSMB2 came out in 2012 so it probably counts.

Now that I think about it I wonder if their appearance here convinced Sakurai to give Jr distinctive Koopaling alts.

 

[Noipoi]

Let's talk about the Koopalings and my favorite one, Jr.

In particular I find it interesting how the fandom's perspective around Jr has shifted. Way back in the day, Jr. wasn't very well liked amongst several fanbases. Sure lots of people liked him, but he was despised by a lot of people. And a big part of that was because people didn't like how he replaced the Koopalings. It's kind of hard to imagine how, but when they brought back Jr. AND the Koopalings is New Super Mario Bros Wii, it was a big deal. People cheered for their return. Now they're kind of tolerated while Jr. seems to be more and more beloved.

I can only imagine younger members of the fanbase who grew up with Jr. have joined the discussion and a lot of the Jr. haters have aged out or have mellowed out. I also think Jr.'s increased prominence and characterization have really helped improve his image. He's not just a brat anymore and while he's not usually intimidating enough to be a final boss, he is enough to carry the plot of multiple games. He's kind of an underdog villain and that has an appeal.

What do you think of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings? Personally I prefer Jr. by a lot. I genuinely love the little guy. And the rest of the Koopalings kind of blend together (even if I like Iggy a lot.)

I **** with the Koopalings heavy, they’re great. I also appreciate the characterization Jr’s been getting recently, it makes him more than just the Mid-Boss Baby.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

NSMB2 came out in 2012 so it probably counts.

Now that I think about it I wonder if their appearance here convinced Sakurai to give Jr distinctive Koopaling alts.

Alts, songs and stages tend to sometimes have content from games that were announced/revealed/released after the project plan was made. The fact that Odyseey and BotW got as much as they did in Ultimate is proof of that.

So while NSMB2 came out 9 months after Smash 4 started development, it's not crazy to assume it had an influence. Heck, it got a stage on the 3DS.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I don't dislike the koopalings, but they kinda exist in this weird funk because of how rigidly Mario stuck to the New Super iconography in the 10s (an to an extent even now). None of their further appearances after Nsmb Wii really did anything to further define them in my mind, and by the time they started adding them to Mario kart and the RPGs it just kinda became white noise to me. I'm not gonna say the Broodals are any better, but at least it doesn't feel like weve seen the full extent of what Nintendo is willing to do with them there like we've had with the koopalings 15 years out from their revival.

Then again, Im bored with 8DX's roster even after the bonus additions. Maybe my standards for Mario rosters are just stupid high.

 

[Will]

Well, none of them have driven solo Clown Cars before.

Let alone the mass-produced model that was made up for Smash.

Blame Sakurai for going out of his way to have his team create OC vehicles. This was before they were put in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe where they gave them actual clown cars, but they’re color-coded like in Smash.

Do you think Miyamoto hit Sakurai with the Mario Bible and said “Uh, actually, there’s only one Junior Clown Car in the Mario world so the Koopalings need their own vehicles modeled and appropriately color-coded, or else you threaten dismantling the authenticity and consistency of the Mario story.”?

 

[Gengar84]

I personally vastly prefer the Koopalings over Bowser Jr. a lot of them just have fun designs and Jr. has always been kind of meh to me. It might have something to do with my dislike of his debut game (Super Mario Sunshine). I absolutely loved SM64 but I couldn’t get into Sunshine at all. On the other hand, SMB3 and SMW were some of my favorite games in the series.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Koopalings appearance in Parper Mario: Color Splash were kind of a missed opportunity since it didn't really give them anything substantial.

Like, Morton is dumb, Larry is a steak connisuer, and Ludwig is a genius, but none of those influence the story very much.

EDIT: They also appear in the most random places...

 

[BuckleyTim]

How were the koopalings portrayed in the bowser jrs journey part of the BIS remake? Would be funny if the best characterization of the koopalings was in the 3ds game no one played because it was a 3ds game in late 2019.

 

[chocolatejr9]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1gure0q/reuters_sony_group_corporation_in_talks_to/

If this goes through it might be curtains for Dark Souls/Elden Ring in Smash. Also Danganronpa.

Also probably for just getting anything from From or Spike Chunsoft on Nintendo systems that wasn't negotiated prior to this deal closing, if it does. I mean very occasionally something from Sony shows up, but... I wouldn't hold my breath.

If this turns out to be true, I'd like to point out that Sony's biggest success this year was a family-friendly platformer that celebrated the company's history. I doubt that's related in any way, but the implication that they would respond by buying out a massive studio and taking their IPs doesn't sit well with me...

It'll be interesting if this is the domino that finally gets Nintendo into acquiring other studios, if for no other reason than to stop Sony from acquiring Japanese development partners.

I don't think Squeenix would sell to Sony after the PS5 kneecapped FFVII Rebirth (although Square probably does need to own up to their mismanagement of FFVII as an IP if they really want to recover from their slump), but that's type of buyout that would have to happen for Nintendo to start following the leader if this doesn't motivate them.

If they think one of their more loyal partners is at risk, that could very well be the case. Keep in mind, though, that when Nintendo DOES do acquisitions they usually do it for a reason (i.e. Shiver Entertainment to help with port work).

 

[BuckleyTim]

What's important to note is that this buyout wouldn't so much be about securing elden ring as it would be about furthing monopolizing the anime distribution industry. I wouldn't say Fromsoft is a footnote here... But it's not even the main intention.

 

[Laniv]

How were the koopalings portrayed in the bowser jrs journey part of the BIS remake? Would be funny if the best characterization of the koopalings was in the 3ds game no one played because it was a 3ds game in late 2019.

It's funny because... yeah, they were portrayed really well and that's exactly what happened. Especially Morton and Roy

 

[Gorgonzales]

Let's talk about the Koopalings and my favorite one, Jr.

In particular I find it interesting how the fandom's perspective around Jr has shifted. Way back in the day, Jr. wasn't very well liked amongst several fanbases. Sure lots of people liked him, but he was despised by a lot of people. And a big part of that was because people didn't like how he replaced the Koopalings. It's kind of hard to imagine how, but when they brought back Jr. AND the Koopalings is New Super Mario Bros Wii, it was a big deal. People cheered for their return. Now they're kind of tolerated while Jr. seems to be more and more beloved.

I can only imagine younger members of the fanbase who grew up with Jr. have joined the discussion and a lot of the Jr. haters have aged out or have mellowed out. I also think Jr.'s increased prominence and characterization have really helped improve his image. He's not just a brat anymore and while he's not usually intimidating enough to be a final boss, he is enough to carry the plot of multiple games. He's kind of an underdog villain and that has an appeal.

What do you think of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings? Personally I prefer Jr. by a lot. I genuinely love the little guy. And the rest of the Koopalings kind of blend together (even if I like Iggy a lot.)

The Koopalings are fine in small doses. When they returned in NSMBW it was great, but then they just became overused.

I will always be of the opinion that the presence of the Koopalings as alts in Smash just bogs Jr. down. Like you said, Jr's become more of an underdog villain. He's gone to be his own character, but the Koopalings never really evolved. Which isn't a bad thing, they have a purpose and serve it well, but making them generic also forces Jr in Smash to be generic (and this would still be the case even if the Koopalings underwent great character development, because it's still trying to cram in 8 characters in 1 slot.)

Let Jr. be on his own, let him use his paintbrush, let him get more physical with punches and shell attacks, and really push that obnoxious twerp side of him and make him truly his own character.

Also I'd love the Wonder Flower palette of Jr. as an alt.

 

[ninjahmos]

Since we're on the subject of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings…

How do you guys feel about Jr.'s moveset? Do you think it's fine the way it is, or would you want to change something?

 

[Gengar84]

Since we're on the subject of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings…

How do you guys feel about Jr.'s moveset?

I like it overall. The only thing I wish is that it could hover like Peach but that would probably break the character. It’s just weird to see the clown car roll around on wheels when it hovered in the sky in Super Mario World.

 

[fogbadge]

Since we're on the subject of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings…

How do you guys feel about Jr.'s moveset? Do you think it's fine the way it is, or would you want to change something?

well I suppose there’s nothing wrong with it but I would like jr to do more himself

 

[Guynamednelson]

Since we're on the subject of Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings…

How do you guys feel about Jr.'s moveset? Do you think it's fine the way it is, or would you want to change something?

Well I think it's perfectly fine outside of its lack of a hover mechanic. You make a fighter who flies around in a helicopter and you don't think to give it any sort of flight mechanic?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Personally I’ve made peace with the idea that I’ll never have my ideal Pokemon lineup in smash

I just wanted one Pokemon to represent each Type.

Smash 4 just had this perfect spread of typings in it's choice of Pokemon. It had 6 Pokemon, covering a total of 10 types, with NO overlap in types.

Normal
Fighting
Flying
Poison
Ground
Rock
Bug
Ghost
Steel
Fire
Water
Grass
Electric
Psychic
Ice
Dragon
Dark
Fairy

If only Ultimate had kept this up with additions like Decidueye(Grass/Ghost) and Garchomp(Dragon/Ground). Add Kleavor(Bug/Rock) in Smash 6. Then all we'd need is for a cool Ice/Poison type to get introduced in a future generation.

I also appreciate the characterization Jr’s been getting recently, it makes him more than just the Mid-Boss Baby.

Even though that's exactly what he was in Wonder...

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

As a weirdo zoner/trapper with surprisingly decent close combat, Bowser Jr. should be exactly my jam.
I don't really like to play as him, though. Or against. I don't know why, I guess it's because of the way he feels. Too floaty and his attacks feel weak for some reason. That side B too... Eeeeh.

He's fine, though. Tying him to the Clown Car and the Koopalings was a cool idea.

 

[Gengar84]

I just wanted one Pokemon to represent each Type.

Smash 4 just had this perfect spread of typings in it's choice of Pokemon. It had 6 Pokemon, covering a total of 10 types, with NO overlap in types.

Normal
Fighting
Flying
Poison
Ground
Rock
Bug
Ghost
Steel
Fire
Water
Grass
Electric
Psychic
Ice
Dragon
Dark
Fairy

If only Ultimate had kept this up with additions like Decidueye(Grass/Ghost) and Garchomp(Dragon/Ground). Add Kleavor(Bug/Rock) in Smash 6. Then all we'd need is for a cool Ice/Poison type to get introduced in a future generation.

Even though that's exactly what he was in Wonder...

This would have been pretty cool but I wonder if it would end up feeling forced just to fill out the types. Like if no one really cared much about the hypothetical ice/poison type, it might feel weird to add it to Smash just for its typing. It also eliminates most of my favorites from consideration since they share at least one type with a Pokémon in Smash. I agree that could have been a cool thing to have a playable character for each type though.

 

[Shinuto]

I want the next game to be revealed at the game awards lol

 

[PersonAngelo53]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1gure0q/reuters_sony_group_corporation_in_talks_to/

If this goes through it might be curtains for Dark Souls/Elden Ring in Smash. Also Danganronpa.

Also probably for just getting anything from From or Spike Chunsoft on Nintendo systems that wasn't negotiated prior to this deal closing, if it does. I mean very occasionally something from Sony shows up, but... I wouldn't hold my breath.

Dang this sucks. A Elden ring character and Monokuma from Danganronpa was part of my most wanted characters. Yikes.

 

[Gengar84]

Dang this sucks. A Elden ring character and Monokuma from Danganronpa was part of my most wanted characters. Yikes.

I don’t think this completely kills their chances. Who would have expected Nintendo to partner with Microsoft for Banjo and Steve before Smash Ultimate? Lego Horizon is on the Switch so it looks like Sony isn’t totally opposed to working with Nintendo either.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I want the next game to be revealed at the game awards lol

I don't. The Game Awards doesn't deserve anything. It's a dragged out, obnoxious ad-riddled event run by out-of-touch celebrities where 10% of it is actually focused on reflecting on the past year of gaming.

The optimal way to watch it is to have it on in the background while talking or playing a game with friends and actively making fun of it.

 

[BuckleyTim]

It's not even worth making fun of at this point. Everyone I know who still does that gets nothing but a slight blood pressure increase out of it.

 

[Ivander]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1gure0q/reuters_sony_group_corporation_in_talks_to/

If this goes through it might be curtains for Dark Souls/Elden Ring in Smash. Also Danganronpa.

Also probably for just getting anything from From or Spike Chunsoft on Nintendo systems that wasn't negotiated prior to this deal closing, if it does. I mean very occasionally something from Sony shows up, but... I wouldn't hold my breath.

Elden Ring, sure. Dark Souls, not so much cause Namco owns Dark Souls still compared to Elden Ring.

 

[Oracle Link]

The idea of Oatchi being a heavyweight makes some sense on paper given his role in Pikmin 4 and relative size to the player, but man oh man would it feel wrong. He’s barely bigger than a quarter in canon.

and don’t bring up Kirby characters being canonically tiny, I refuse to accept that.
probably gonna sound like a hater for saying this but I’d much rather they have their Double Dragon Neon voices instead of the Game Grumps.

Fun thing is how tall kirby and co. Are changes basically all the time!
And if hes tiny that either means adeline is a newborn or her height in game is non canon and shes actually the tallest kirby character other than void and other final bosses!

 

[Lionfranky]

What's important to note is that this buyout wouldn't so much be about securing elden ring as it would be about furthing monopolizing the anime distribution industry. I wouldn't say Fromsoft is a footnote here... But it's not even the main intention.

I wonder whether anti trust law will kick in. In terms of marketshare, this should be far bigger red flag than Activision acquisition.

 

[Oracle Link]

Ah yeah i wanted to revamp the zelda Cast with only one main appearnce per character in mind!
Im gonna cheat a bit and have adult link from BOTW and TOTK and Young Link from Links awekning and echoes of Wisdom i mean that counts right?

Link:

Spoiler: Big Boi

If you put a gun to my head and said come up with 4 champion only alts i would pick these as they are very iconic!
Alt Colors:
BOTW: AOC Dark Link
Classic: Fierce Deity
TOTK: Hylian tunic
Archaic: Rauru colored? or Yellow depeding if im allowed to do a rauru skin

Moveset:
Down Smash: Spin Attack
N Special: Electro Arrows (still feels classic but with a modern twist)
Side Special: Forest dwellers boomerang (depends on alt works the same)
Down B: Remote Bomb: Either from Botw or totk depending on alt
Up B: Acsend (i personally would prefer Spin attack for a generic adult link but the GUN!)
Final Smash: Light Bow (botw)

Young Link:

Spoiler: Lil Guy

I still havent finnished Eow cause my switch go Kaputt

In a case like this i would probably prefer a REALLY Normal link moveset but im gonna make him a bit weird although very classic!

Alts:

Classic (links awekening Style)
Alts 2-6: Toon Links Brawl alts with the same refrences being the four swords, zelda one and dark links
Modern (echoes of wisdom style with hood)
Alt 8: Dark Link (EOW Phase 2 with hood)

Moveset:
Up B: Spin attack
Down B: Bomb Overhead (holds up a bomb with both hand press a to throw it or...)
B: Straight Quick Bow or Bomb Arrow (fires either a quick straight shoot from your bow or a slow but strong bomb arrow)
Side B: Magical Boomerang (from seasons hold b throught the throw to direct it afterwards)
Grab: Switch hook (Only diffrence is if you grab a opponent you meet in the middle flipped arround and then the regular grab stuff can be done)
FInal Smash: Triforce Slash although with link holding up the triforce proior to the attack and a lot of canon slashes borrowed from diffrent Links!

How do you like these? I do think i made "young" Link enough of a default link as he can still be played like toon and the other young Link!
Again if i had the choice adult Link would be based on all adult titles and A link to the past and the small one would be based on Toon, Toy with some reffrences to other lil guys!

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don’t think this completely kills their chances. Who would have expected Nintendo to partner with Microsoft for Banjo and Steve before Smash Ultimate? Lego Horizon is on the Switch so it looks like Sony isn’t totally opposed to working with Nintendo either.

Sony isn't MS. Lego Horizon may be on the Switch, but every non-PS2 version of MGS3 had to cut out the Ape Escape minigame including the remake and Switch port.

 

[Noipoi]

Even though that's exactly what he was in Wonder...

Wonder was awesome but the way they handled boss fights was baffling, and one of the few things holding the game back.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The Koopalings are fine in small doses. When they returned in NSMBW it was great, but then they just became overused.

I will always be of the opinion that the presence of the Koopalings as alts in Smash just bogs Jr. down. Like you said, Jr's become more of an underdog villain. He's gone to be his own character, but the Koopalings never really evolved. Which isn't a bad thing, they have a purpose and serve it well, but making them generic also forces Jr in Smash to be generic (and this would still be the case even if the Koopalings underwent great character development, because it's still trying to cram in 8 characters in 1 slot.)

Let Jr. be on his own, let him use his paintbrush, let him get more physical with punches and shell attacks, and really push that obnoxious twerp side of him and make him truly his own character.

Also I'd love the Wonder Flower palette of Jr. as an alt.

And you'd be wrong because we literally had this discussion before.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Koopalings.

The reason Jr. is in a "catch-all Clown Car moveset" is literally because of this game right here.

Ever since this game, the Jr. Clown Car has been his "thing". The reason the Koopalings are in the Clown Car are because of HIM, not the other way around.

I will repeat myself that Jr. is in the Clown Car BECAUSE it's what Jr. had become synonymous with.
The Koopalings are in the Clown Car in Smash because of Jr., not the other way around.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Im gonna cheat a bit and have adult link from BOTW and TOTK and Young Link from Links awekning and echoes of Wisdom i mean that counts right?

TotK is a direct sequel to BotW even if its existence isn't acknowledged beyond a few lines of text in-game and sometimes even outright ignored so that's fair

I don't think merging Link's Awakening and Echoes of Wisdom counts since they feel like completely different things. Fortunately, [spoiler alert] Link does nothing 95% of the time and whenever he does do something it's classic Link **** so you could completely ignore Echoes outside of the hood because the hood goes hard

Down B: Remote Bomb: Either from Botw or totk depending on alt

.....TotK doesn't have a remote bomb. It has something that looks similar but it's actually a combination of something that needs to be manually activated and something with a classic timer like other Zeldas. It's very fundamentally different.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

On another note, we can't even blame the Koopalings for why Jr. doesn't use the paintbrush when all of them use it for the same exact Final Smash that represents something only Jr. had ever done (Shadow Mario).

So who's really "holding back" who in this situation? The Koopalings are forced to be in their own mini Clown Cars that they never had (but Jr. did for several games) and become Shadow Mario and use a paintbrush, which is not something they'd ever done before (but Jr. did in his debut) and use nothing of their own repertoire, all so they can be squeezed in as alts for Jr.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On another note, we can't even blame the Koopalings for why Jr. doesn't use the paintbrush when all of them use it for the same exact Final Smash that represents something only Jr. had ever done (Shadow Mario).

So who's really "holding back" who in this situation? The Koopalings are forced to be in their own mini Clown Cars that they never had (but Jr. did for several games) and become Shadow Mario and use a paintbrush, which is not something they'd ever done before (but Jr. did in his debut) and use nothing of their own repertoire, all so they can be squeezed in as alts for Jr.

It took Ultimate until the Koopalings got anything and that was replacing the hammer for a wand for them specifically.

A purely cosmetic change as it still functions like blunt weapons so it's never used for the purposes the Koopalings had ALWAYS used wands for.

It's clear the Koopalings got the shorter end of the stick, but it's still cool that they're here.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I just wanted one Pokemon to represent each Type.

Smash 4 just had this perfect spread of typings in it's choice of Pokemon. It had 6 Pokemon, covering a total of 10 types, with NO overlap in types.

Normal
Fighting
Flying
Poison
Ground
Rock
Bug
Ghost
Steel
Fire
Water
Grass
Electric
Psychic
Ice
Dragon
Dark
Fairy

If only Ultimate had kept this up with additions like Decidueye(Grass/Ghost) and Garchomp(Dragon/Ground). Add Kleavor(Bug/Rock) in Smash 6. Then all we'd need is for a cool Ice/Poison type to get introduced in a future generation.

My problem with this is some Pokemon don't even represent their types well. Lucario doesn't use any Steel-type moves, Greninja doesn't use any Dark-type moves, Jigglypuff doesn't use any Fairy-type moves, and Ivysaur doesn't use any Poison-type moves. There's still potential to add Pokemon with these types and differentiate them from the Pokemon we already have.

 

[Ivander]

On another note, we can't even blame the Koopalings for why Jr. doesn't use the paintbrush when all of them use it for the same exact Final Smash that represents something only Jr. had ever done (Shadow Mario).

So who's really "holding back" who in this situation? The Koopalings are forced to be in their own mini Clown Cars that they never had (but Jr. did for several games) and become Shadow Mario and use a paintbrush, which is not something they'd ever done before (but Jr. did in his debut) and use nothing of their own repertoire, all so they can be squeezed in as alts for Jr.

It took Ultimate until the Koopalings got anything and that was replacing the hammer for a wand for them specifically.

A purely cosmetic change as it still functions like blunt weapons so it's never used for the purposes the Koopalings had ALWAYS used wands for.

It feels odd that the wand couldn't be used for the Koopalings' Final Smash. Just replace Shadow Mario with the Koopalings using their magic wands to cover the screen(with magic paint).