Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

I unironically hope that these guys are the Muppets that appear at the TGAs this year, and roast Geoff and the "please wrap it up" thing.

I don't know. Like just because something makes a jab at itself for something dumb, doesn't necessarily make it a good jab.

I think it'd be more important to just try to be better and more respectful in regards to the "wrap things up" event and try to be more respectful to the people and developers up on stage instead of just going "haha, we're mocking ourselves for something dumb we did last year".

 

[SPEN18]

It can be pretty frustrating, really, how it is that once a character gets into Smash, some people basically give up on evaluating them objectively. I just don't see anything special in the case for Incineroar. He's just another Fire starter, demonstrably less popular than all of Charizard, Typhlosion, Blaziken, and probably also Infernape before him. His other same-gen competition all polls better than him and gets the spinoff love, notably Rowlett/Decidueye and Mimikyu. His one claim to fame is having some relevance to some VGC metagames, and I guess Ash had him in the anime. But sometimes it's like you can't say anything against him without getting slapped with "he's a grappler" like somehow that overshadows everything else. People love to clamor about how amazingly unique his playstyle is, but honestly that just makes me feel like people are taking the other Pokemon characters and their uniqueness for granted. Whether or not the situation boiled down to something like "Sakurai, you have to add a Pokemon from Sun and Moon" or some other restrictive proposition like that, I think Sakurai made the wrong choice, and retrospect only makes it even more clear when we see how well stuff like Decidueye and Mimikyu has continued to perform in the aftermath of gen 7's peak relevance, and how middling Incineroar's overall popularity has remained even with the artificial boosters from Smash promotion and competitive relevance.

Anyway, I know that was a bit of a rant but this is one scenario where, just looking at it as objectively as possible with the benefit of hindsight, I feel they made the wrong call.

 

[fogbadge]

I unironically hope that these guys are the Muppets that appear at the TGAs this year, and roast Geoff and the "please wrap it up" thing.

I forgot about geoff. that man is a charisma vacuum.

It can be pretty frustrating, really, how it is that once a character gets into Smash, some people basically give up on evaluating them objectively. I just don't see anything special in the case for Incineroar. He's just another Fire starter, demonstrably less popular than all of Charizard, Typhlosion, Blaziken, and probably also Infernape before him. His other same-gen competition all polls better than him and gets the spinoff love, notably Rowlett/Decidueye and Mimikyu. His one claim to fame is having some relevance to some VGC metagames, and I guess Ash had him in the anime. But sometimes it's like you can't say anything against him without getting slapped with "he's a grappler" like somehow that overshadows everything else. People love to clamor about how amazingly unique his playstyle is, but honestly that just makes me feel like people are taking the other Pokemon characters and their uniqueness for granted. Whether or not the situation boiled down to something like "Sakurai, you have to add a Pokemon from Sun and Moon" or some other restrictive proposition like that, I think Sakurai made the wrong choice, and retrospect only makes it even more clear when we see how well stuff like Decidueye and Mimikyu has continued to perform in the aftermath of gen 7's peak relevance, and how middling Incineroar's overall popularity has remained even with the artificial boosters from Smash promotion and competitive relevance.

Anyway, I know that was a bit of a rant but this is one scenario where, just looking at it as objectively as possible with the benefit of hindsight, I feel they made the wrong call.

I agree. the smash fandom does love inceneroar's uniqueness but they're keen to kick out squirtle and ivysaur despite theirs. as for ash having one, well most the important moment for that pokemon happed in it's previous forms. he evolves faints and it's not used again between then and ash leaving. I mean at least when cyndaquil evolved two generations after he joined he got to take part in a big fight.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

It can be pretty frustrating, really, how it is that once a character gets into Smash, some people basically give up on evaluating them objectively. I just don't see anything special in the case for Incineroar. He's just another Fire starter, demonstrably less popular than all of Charizard, Typhlosion, Blaziken, and probably also Infernape before him. His other same-gen competition all polls better than him and gets the spinoff love, notably Rowlett/Decidueye and Mimikyu. His one claim to fame is having some relevance to some VGC metagames, and I guess Ash had him in the anime. But sometimes it's like you can't say anything against him without getting slapped with "he's a grappler" like somehow that overshadows everything else. People love to clamor about how amazingly unique his playstyle is, but honestly that just makes me feel like people are taking the other Pokemon characters and their uniqueness for granted. Whether or not the situation boiled down to something like "Sakurai, you have to add a Pokemon from Sun and Moon" or some other restrictive proposition like that, I think Sakurai made the wrong choice, and retrospect only makes it even more clear when we see how well stuff like Decidueye and Mimikyu has continued to perform in the aftermath of gen 7's peak relevance, and how middling Incineroar's overall popularity has remained even with the artificial boosters from Smash promotion and competitive relevance.

Anyway, I know that was a bit of a rant but this is one scenario where, just looking at it as objectively as possible with the benefit of hindsight, I feel they made the wrong call.

I mean it's hard to call it the wrong call when Sakurai looked at Incineroar's concept art and said "A wrestler could be neat, never done that before" and then did it, regardless of future popularity that he could've never known lol

Like popularity is important for a lot of characters, but Pokemon commonly get shown to Sakurai before they've even made an appearance in any kind of media, so going on about how he's less popular than all these other starters plus Mimikyu doesn't matter when Ultimate's project plan was finished like a year before Sun and Moon even came out and people are talking about bringing back a veteran.

If we're talking alongside common thoughts that Squirtle and Ivysaur might also get booted, then I also think that talk is silly, but so is this imo lol

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Grapplers? It's a long shot, but.....

 

[Gengar84]

Grapplers? It's a long shot, but.....

Bugzzy is my most wanted Kirby character and near the top of my most wanted first party characters in general. I’d absolutely love that even if it isn’t particularly likely. Although we did just get Piranha Plant so never say never I guess.

 

[Guynamednelson]

they're keen to kick out squirtle and ivysaur despite theirs

Well you know how Smash fans are. Incapable of comprehending the idea that a Pokemon that isn't an edgy furry from the latest generation could have any sort of popularity.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Well you know how Smash fans are. Incapable of comprehending the idea that a Pokemon that isn't an edgy furry from the latest generation could have any sort of popularity.

Yeah, Smash needs an inanimate object-based Pokémon like Chandelure or Aegislash.

 

[Ivander]

Yeah, Smash needs an inanimate object-based Pokémon like Chandelure or Aegislash.

You try to be funny, but either one would be legitimately cool to see as a playable character in Smash Bros, especially Chandelure.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

You try to be funny, but either one would be legitimately cool to see as a playable character in Smash Bros, especially Chandelure.

You will get Wash Rotom and specifically Wash Rotom and you will like it.

 

[Noipoi]

Yeah, Smash needs an inanimate object-based Pokémon like Chandelure or Aegislash.

This is how Dhelmise wins

 

[Ivander]

You will get Wash Rotom and specifically Wash Rotom and you will like it.

Hey don't tell me that. Tell the other Smash fans. A playable flying washing machine is their number 1 enemy.

 

[Laniv]

I would totally play as Palossand

 

[SPEN18]

I mean it's hard to call it the wrong call when Sakurai looked at Incineroar's concept art and said "A wrestler could be neat, never done that before" and then did it, regardless of future popularity that he could've never known lol

Like popularity is important for a lot of characters, but Pokemon commonly get shown to Sakurai before they've even made an appearance in any kind of media, so going on about how he's less popular than all these other starters plus Mimikyu doesn't matter when Ultimate's project plan was finished like a year before Sun and Moon even came out and people are talking about bringing back a veteran.

Actually in this case if you look here:

Sakurai on Smash Bros. Ultimate - why Incineroar was chosen and more

Following some of the excerpts that made it online yesterday, we now have the full column from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate director Masahiro Sakurai that was published in this week’s issue of Famitsu. We did cover quite a bit of this last night, but there are a few extra statements with Sakurai...

nintendoeverything.com

Sakurai says the choice of Incineroar was only finalized after Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon came out. So regular Sun and Moon had been out a year, and at least initial reception to the gen 7 mons would've been relevant.

Then I say that, with the benefit of hindsight (which is important to be clear about when relevant, for sure), the choice looks even worse since we now have the polling data to back up what was already suspected.

Lastly, no, don't just give him a pass on scrutiny just because he's a veteran. Unwillingness to be critical of the past choices in the same way people analyze potential newcomers' merits is one of the very grievances I was laying out.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Hey don't tell me that. Tell the other Smash fans. A playable flying washing machine is their number 1 enemy.

The first thing that popped into my head.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Actually in this case if you look here:

Sakurai on Smash Bros. Ultimate - why Incineroar was chosen and more

Following some of the excerpts that made it online yesterday, we now have the full column from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate director Masahiro Sakurai that was published in this week’s issue of Famitsu. We did cover quite a bit of this last night, but there are a few extra statements with Sakurai...

nintendoeverything.com

Sakurai says the choice of Incineroar was only finalized after Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon came out. So regular Sun and Moon had been out a year, and at least initial reception to the gen 7 mons would've been relevant.

Then I say that, with the benefit of hindsight (which is important to be clear about when relevant, for sure), the choice looks even worse since we now have the polling data to back up what was already suspected.

Lastly, no, don't just give him a pass on scrutiny just because he's a veteran. Unwillingness to be critical of the past choices in the same way people analyze potential newcomers' merits is one of the very grievances I was laying out.

Even with that scenario, Sakurai also says like two sentences later "I wanted to make a pro wrestler type character at least once!" So again, it doesn't matter because Incineroar's wrestling archetype appealed to Sakurai more. Which means it's even less about popularity with Incin and more just Sakurai had an idea he wanted to do, and picked Incin to fulfill that idea, meaning Sakurai picked Incineroar EXCLUSIVELY for his unique playstyle, which you bemoan people for even bringing up.

And "a pass on scrutiny"? Sorry I would prefer we bring back the fun wrestling moveset with a lot of character and flair that already exists than just be like "actually in hindsight this was a bad idea because other Pokemon are more popular and it should've been Decidueye or Mimikyu" as if you can change Ultimate's Pokemon character because you "just don't see anything special about Incineroar" which is also a very vague, very subjective statement that literally means nothing in this scrutiny context you're trying to make.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, Smash needs an inanimate object-based Pokémon like Chandelure or Aegislash.

chandelure would be one of the most based picks in smash ever

I would totally play as Palossand

as would palosand

 

[Louie G.]

I do think Mimikyu would have been a great and inspired choice, but I'm happy they went with Incineroar over Decidueye. Because the latter feels like retreading ground - the fun part about Incineroar is that even though he's more humanoid, he feels flavorfully distinct from the cool mysterious type that Lucario, Greninja and arguably Mewtwo reflect. Decidueye is more of the same, to me. I'm not really concerned about outside popularity or how well he aged in the context of Pokemon marketing, he is a fun character that I grew to like a lot.

It's hard to determine what objectivity really means here. "Objectively" a character like Lucario and Greninja are more popular, alright. Subjectively, I find him to be more dynamic and fun to play. Somewhere in the middle of that is the subjectivity of developer opinion - Sakurai wanted to add a wrestler, and he got one. How badly did he want a wrestler character? We don't really know, but perhaps this was something that he wanted to implement for a long time. If he and the team are happy with Incineroar, and recognize the variety that he brings to the game through his personality and archetype, that's meaningful isn't it?

This argument hinges pretty much exclusively on the assumption that popularity polls and marketing material are the only objective measure of a character's worth. I think it's pretty obvious that isn't the case, at large. It helps, but originality is held in similarly high esteem. I'm not saying that Incineroar is definitely coming back - I think he's one of the less likely Pokemon to return, something that I'm remiss about more than I am trying to argue against. But I also think boiling this down to Incineroar not being a remarkably popular Pokemon = his addition was a failure / mistake is... a pretty lame way to look at things, honestly. Is the only goal here for Smash to create a new marketing powerhouse? That doesn't seem like it was ever really the intent here.

Especially since Incineroar is not an especially unpopular Smash character... by that measure he was actually pretty successful, whereas someone like Lucario and even Mewtwo these days struggles to maintain as loyal a playerbase, at least from my perception online. Clearly it's not as simple as that, and I think people would generally disagree with me if that was the hill I chose to die on (they did last time I brought this up in respect to Lucario). But I'm just saying.

 

[fogbadge]

I do think Mimikyu would have been a great and inspired choice, but I'm happy they went with Incineroar over Decidueye. Because the latter feels like retreading ground - the fun part about Incineroar is that even though he's more humanoid, he feels flavorfully distinct from the cool mysterious type that Lucario, Greninja and arguably Mewtwo reflect. Decidueye is more of the same, to me. I'm not really concerned about outside popularity or how well he aged in the context of Pokemon marketing, he is a fun character that I grew to like a lot.

It's hard to determine what objectivity really means here. "Objectively" a character like Lucario and Greninja are more popular, alright. Subjectively, I find him to be more dynamic and fun to play. Somewhere in the middle of that is the subjectivity of developer opinion - Sakurai wanted to add a wrestler, and he got one. How badly did he want a wrestler character? We don't really know, but perhaps this was something that he wanted to implement for a long time. If he and the team are happy with Incineroar, and recognize the variety that he brings to the game through his personality and archetype, that's meaningful isn't it?

This argument hinges pretty much exclusively on the assumption that popularity polls and marketing material are the only objective measure of a character's worth. I think it's pretty obvious that isn't the case, at large. It helps, but originality is held in similarly high esteem. I'm not saying that Incineroar is definitely coming back - I think he's one of the less likely Pokemon to return, something that I'm remiss about more than I am trying to argue against. But I also think boiling this down to Incineroar not being a remarkably popular Pokemon = his addition was a failure / mistake is... a pretty lame way to look at things, honestly. Is the only goal here for Smash to create a new marketing powerhouse? That doesn't seem like it was ever really the intent here.

Especially since Incineroar is not an especially unpopular Smash character... by that measure he was actually pretty successful, whereas someone like Lucario and even Mewtwo these days struggles to maintain as loyal a playerbase, at least from my perception online. Clearly it's not as simple as that, and I think people would generally disagree with me if that was the hill I chose to die on (they did last time I brought this up in respect to Lucario). But I'm just saying.

I think I’ve missed something here cause it sounds like you’re saying, the ghost owl archer, the ninja frog, the aura jackal and the psychic mutant are the same

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I know I brought up Wash Rotom, but I just got an anonymous endorsement for Frost Rotom.

This is what they had to say.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I do think Mimikyu would have been a great and inspired choice, but I'm happy they went with Incineroar over Decidueye. Because the latter feels like retreading ground - the fun part about Incineroar is that even though he's more humanoid, he feels flavorfully distinct from the cool mysterious type that Lucario, Greninja and arguably Mewtwo reflect. Decidueye is more of the same, to me. I'm not really concerned about outside popularity or how well he aged in the context of Pokemon marketing, he is a fun character that I grew to like a lot.

It's hard to determine what objectivity really means here. "Objectively" a character like Lucario and Greninja are more popular, alright. Subjectively, I find him to be more dynamic and fun to play. Somewhere in the middle of that is the subjectivity of developer opinion - Sakurai wanted to add a wrestler, and he got one. How badly did he want a wrestler character? We don't really know, but perhaps this was something that he wanted to implement for a long time. If he and the team are happy with Incineroar, and recognize the variety that he brings to the game through his personality and archetype, that's meaningful isn't it?

This argument hinges pretty much exclusively on the assumption that popularity polls and marketing material are the only objective measure of a character's worth. I think it's pretty obvious that isn't the case, at large. It helps, but originality is held in similarly high esteem. I'm not saying that Incineroar is definitely coming back - I think he's one of the less likely Pokemon to return, something that I'm remiss about more than I am trying to argue against. But I also think boiling this down to Incineroar not being a remarkably popular Pokemon = his addition was a failure / mistake is... a pretty lame way to look at things, honestly. Is the only goal here for Smash to create a new marketing powerhouse? That doesn't seem like it was ever really the intent here.

Especially since Incineroar is not an especially unpopular Smash character... by that measure he was actually pretty successful, whereas someone like Lucario and even Mewtwo these days struggles to maintain as loyal a playerbase, at least from my perception online. Clearly it's not as simple as that, and I think people would generally disagree with me if that was the hill I chose to die on (they did last time I brought this up in respect to Lucario). But I'm just saying.

What helps is that out of every Pokemon character, Incineroar is surprisingly the easiest one to pick up.

Most of the others have some weird shenanigans going on that prevent them from being easily accessible in spite of being representatives of one of if not THE biggest media franchise. Pichu's self-damage, he and Pikachu's main kill option with Down B requiring a lot of thought on how to properly use, Lucario's entire Aura mechanic, Trainer's 3-in-1 aspect and so on...

Meanwhile, Incin's "weird quirk" is just... being slow as ****. That's much easier to understand without even spending any extensive time with him so anyone could reliably pick him up and do stuff.

There's also Revenge but like, that one's not as much of a mind**** as Aura or being a tag team character and even without it, he still hits hard enough to be fun on a casual level while understanding it makes him significantly more fun and gives him more depth without turning the mere act of fighting as him into a puzzle game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

"just don't see anything special about Incineroar"

Well for one thing it does absolutely nothing a non-Pokemon wrestler couldn't have done. You could've given a similar moveset to Mike Haggar and the only real issue would be the lack of aerials involving The Pipe.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well for one thing it does absolutely nothing a non-Pokemon wrestler couldn't have done. You could've given a similar moveset to Mike Haggar and the only real issue would be the lack of aerials involving The Pipe.

Man, where the **** was Revenge when they added Haggar in MvC?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Man, where the **** was Revenge when they added Haggar in MvC?

Similar, not the exact same.

 

[Laniv]

WRT the current Gen VII talk: if it were up to me, in 2017/2018, I woulda gone for an Ultra Beast

 

[cashregister9]

WRT the current Gen VII talk: if it were up to me, in 2017/2018, I woulda gone for an Ultra Beast

Ultra Space would still be a fantastic stage tbh.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

WRT the current Gen VII talk: if it were up to me, in 2017/2018, I woulda gone for an Ultra Beast

Buzzwole and only Buzzwole would have been an acceptable substitute.

All other UBs are chumps.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It can be pretty frustrating, really, how it is that once a character gets into Smash, some people basically give up on evaluating them objectively. I just don't see anything special in the case for Incineroar. He's just another Fire starter, demonstrably less popular than all of Charizard, Typhlosion, Blaziken, and probably also Infernape before him. His other same-gen competition all polls better than him and gets the spinoff love, notably Rowlett/Decidueye and Mimikyu. His one claim to fame is having some relevance to some VGC metagames, and I guess Ash had him in the anime. But sometimes it's like you can't say anything against him without getting slapped with "he's a grappler" like somehow that overshadows everything else. People love to clamor about how amazingly unique his playstyle is, but honestly that just makes me feel like people are taking the other Pokemon characters and their uniqueness for granted. Whether or not the situation boiled down to something like "Sakurai, you have to add a Pokemon from Sun and Moon" or some other restrictive proposition like that, I think Sakurai made the wrong choice, and retrospect only makes it even more clear when we see how well stuff like Decidueye and Mimikyu has continued to perform in the aftermath of gen 7's peak relevance, and how middling Incineroar's overall popularity has remained even with the artificial boosters from Smash promotion and competitive relevance.

Anyway, I know that was a bit of a rant but this is one scenario where, just looking at it as objectively as possible with the benefit of hindsight, I feel they made the wrong call.

Eh. Sometimes it's okay to be subjective. His play style won people over because it's super fun. He doesn't need much else.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Buzzwole and only Buzzwole would have been an acceptable substitute.

All other UBs are chumps.

I ****ing despise mosquitoes with a passion and I would still be accepting our flexing overlord.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I ****ing despite mosquitoes with a passion and I would still be accepting our flexing overlord.

That's because he's more Swole than Buzz.

 

[fogbadge]

WRT the current Gen VII talk: if it were up to me, in 2017/2018, I woulda gone for an Ultra Beast

could of had some really unusual fighters from them

Ultra Space would still be a fantastic stage tbh.

As a tour stage going through the different parts

 

[Laniv]

Buzzwole and only Buzzwole would have been an acceptable substitute.

All other UBs are chumps.

Hearing Xander Mobus say "BUZZWOLE!" in the announcer's voice alone would justify its inclusion.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I can already see the newcomer banner: "Buzzwole flexes in!"

...Wait, Undertale already did that...

 

[Guynamednelson]

Eh. Sometimes it's okay to be subjective. His play style won people over because it's super fun. He doesn't need much else.

At the same time...thinking Robin was the wrong choice for an Awakening rep didn't get thought-policed out of the equation just because of how unique/fun their playstyle is.

We have proof:

 

[Schnee117]

This is how Dhelmise wins

Finally

More Glue Eater Buttons

 

[Swamp Sensei]

At the same time...thinking Robin was the wrong choice for an Awakening rep didn't get thought-policed out of the equation just because of how unique/fun their playstyle is.

We have proof:

I'm not sure how Chrom getting in as an echo proves your point.

Regardless I'm not thought policing anyone. I just said people aren't looking at it objectively and that okay sometimes.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

At the same time...thinking Robin was the wrong choice for an Awakening rep didn't get thought-policed out of the equation just because of how unique/fun their playstyle is.

We have proof:

I have no idea what this "thought-policing" is even referring to, because Chrom was originally going to be in 4 and Sakurai had a moveset for him, but ended up dropping him in favor of Robin's sword and magic combo to set them apart.

Chrom was then added as an Echo in Ultimate because he was a very popular request.

I've never seen anyone refer to Robin as "the wrong choice" for an Awakening character, I don't think.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Some thoughts on various claims:

Incineroar was a bad choice.
I don't think it would have resonated with players if that were wholly the case, though there are better choices, and I would agree with the sentiment that nobody would want it if it never came.

Incineroar doesn't really have anything going for it.
This is just straight up not true. I could agree that it's the third weakest link in the Pokémon roster, but it's current relevance isn't nothing. In fact, I'd say it'd be practically everything if it belonged to a different franchise. lol. As far as its chances of returning goes, I think that Incineroar will do so intermittently, skipping a game or two between appearances, but appearing often enough to never truly become ridiculously surprising. Honestly, that probably applies to most of the oddball/underdog characters on Ultimate's roster, but that's an entirely different conversation.

Incineroar doesn't do anything that another wrestler wouldn't.
He kinda does though? His exact kit with Alolan Whip, Revenge, and a ton of really good normals gives him a dynamic that other characters wouldn't replicate due to it either not making sense on them, or the characters in question having gimmicks of their own that would end up happening. For example, Zangief would be playing Street Fighter, making his movement a lot less fluit, and would lack Incineroar's burst movement and probably also his good frame data. Haggar would likely have a focus on items due to his beat 'em up inpiration, ending up as a heavy that acts a bit more like if Bowser was an item character than Incineroar. King would have Tekken mechanics, making him kinda complicated to play, and very much ground based.

These characters are also just not very likely to be added any time soon, so IMO I'm glad we got something like this now.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm not sure how Chrom getting in as an echo proves your point

IntSys would've had to approve of any FE choices no matter how or when they became playable.

 

[Louie G.]

I think I’ve missed something here cause it sounds like you’re saying, the ghost owl archer, the ninja frog, the aura jackal and the psychic mutant are the same

Obviously not. I'm saying that these characters are dynamically similar - their appeal leans largely into the same rule of cool, this elusive, mysterious man of few words archetype. Decidueye is clearly similar in that respect. Fighter personality / roster flavor is something I value a lot, so the fact that Incineroar expresses himself so dynamically is significant. And Pokemon is an inherently colorful, silly series just as well so I quite enjoy seeing a hammy, expressive character taking the forefront over yet another brooding serious fighter.

I know this doesn't matter to everyone, but as a fan of games like Street Fighter, Darkstalkers or Guilty Gear I just like to keep things really diverse and lively. It's fun to have what feels like a dynamic cast that can play off each other in compelling ways. Not saying these are the priorities of Smash, but it's something I personally appreciate and look for.