Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

So, what do you think goes on with the selection process of assist trophies and PokeBall Pokemon?

Like how do those guys get picked for the job?

well as far as I can tell AT are mostly characters who didn't make it onto the roster with a few dart board picks as well

as for pokeballs, it seems to be whoever TPC thinks is popular, a few obvious starters and legends and then the dart board

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Always felt that Mr. Game & Watch gets both jobs done pretty well.

Being fair, most of the references are extremely creative liberties (7 never spawns apples in Judge for example).

On top of that, the moment the devs committed to making him move like the LCD screens the Game & Watch devices are known for is when the idea of him pulling stuff out of nowhere or, starting with Ultimate, being a shapeshifter who transforms into the same characters as the games he pulls from went from being random and jarring to being something that actually enhances his charm.

Game & Watch is a very exceptional case where a direction that's usually the worst for most characters actually worked out perfectly for him.

 

[dezeray112]

On the topic of Eternal Champions getting killed off - the usual narrative is that SoJ killed it so Virtua Fighter wouldn't have competition, and I don't know how much I believe that considering SEGA would later go on to put out several other fighting games that are also much closer to VF. The explanation that usually comes from that, "well Eternal Champions died specifically because SoJ hated/was jealous of/was biased against/just plain didn't get along with SoA" also doesn't hold much water considering that's a narrative that's been refuted by multiple accounts - there's absolutely some truth to the idea that they weren't always the best at communication, but the extent to which they actually had it in for each other is often pushed to the point of exaggeration by, like, one or two accounts that people choose to put all their stock in because of the pedigree of who's saying it (exclusively from the American side too).

If we want to figure out why this might've happened otherwise, I feel some context is key - around the time that this new EC game would have been being made, SEGA of America was horribly mismanaged and taking severe financial nosedives. Like, bleeding money, accumulating tons of unsold stock, on-the-verge-of-bankruptcy levels. It's generally believed from more recent accounts that this was when, after a period of just kinda letting them do whatever, SoJ came in to sort of clean house and reign things in, eventually leading to Kalinske leaving his position. It's possible that, during all this mess, the game might have slipped through the cracks, or they might've put the kibosh on it because they felt that SoA was genuinely not in a state to even make it at that point. Who knows.

This is what I found within a past interview with the late Michael Latham in an old article which kind of correlates what you mentioned:

"Is it true that an Eternal Champions game was being developed for the SEGA Saturn, and if so, why was it cancelled and how close was it to completion?

Yes, if you look at the original Saturn box it’s listed as a coming game. The short answer on the cancellation was SOJ was very frustrated that EC was getting more market attention than the Virtua Fighter series in the US and Europe. So, they decided to kill the EC Saturn game and focus all fighting efforts on VF. Even to this day you won’t see any EC characters appearing in Sega games where they have characters from a variety of other games. The ban still holds (what?? – Ed).

I wrote a 30-page treatment and there was a Saturn demo of the fighting but sadly both have been lost to time. My treatment being lost isn’t a bad thing, I have the full thing still in my head. The main concept was you have the Eternals and the Infernals facing off against each other in fights through time. Depending on the fight outcomes a time ripple would then change the story, alter dynamic backgrounds, even the characters. To win you must correct the time-line and defeat the ultimate enemy which is Chaos. That end fight would have been epic. Unlike the prior end fight you would be morphing between time-variants of your character and Chaos morphs between his."

Source: https://www.arcadeattack.co.uk/michael-latham/

Other than that, I do feel that what Michael Latham's concept for the cancelled third Eternal Champions entry would had been interesting.

Speaking of other fighting games, it was also hinted that current Street Fighter 6 producer Takayuki Nakayama did work upon a new entry for the Darkstalkers series which apparently ended up being cancelled.

Whilst I am still to this day awaiting for a new entry on the Darkstalkers series, I really do hope that the series will get one eventually within the future (even though this is wishful thinking.)

 

[ninjahmos]

It'd probably never happen, but I think it'd be pretty cool if they could add in this remix of Snake Eater:

 

[Louie G.]

Do you prefer movesets that are full of references, or more practical movesets that have some attacks that the characters don't do in their game of origin?

It wholly depends on the character, which I know is a copout answer but... there are definitely some characters where it would be particularly odd to take extensive liberties. A character like Mario or Link doesn't really require you to think all that abstractly about their moveset potential. Although for most characters who aren't lifted from a fighting game outright, there are always going to have to be a few things made up.

On the whole I think it's more important that the moveset is practical than referential though - the issue with a lot of heavily referential fan movesets is they pay no mind to gameplay cohesion or archetype. There's a reason Donkey Kong doesn't have a coconut gun, and that Ganondorf doesn't use Dead Man's Volley. It's because if you give these characters these tools, something has to give. It's a sacrifice made to make the characters, on the whole, feel more like they're supposed to feel. Donkey Kong being an in your face, handsy physical powerhouse matters a lot more than giving him yet another projectile and neutering his other strengths. So many of these so called liberties or lapses in character representation are for the greater good of making them true to form.

I also feel like there's something to be said about how the more abstract, archetypical moveset adaptations - Fox, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Marth, Incineroar - are probably some of the most effective, tightly designed and/or popular in the whole series. Personally I think, moving forward, they should be taking more notes from these guys than all the bells and whistles of the hyper-accurate DLC characters. There are still dozens of ways to be creative, and underexplored archetypes within Smash, that can make effective and diverse characters and still keep it largely "traditional".

 

[Speed Weed]

Yes, if you look at the original Saturn box it’s listed as a coming game. The short answer on the cancellation was SOJ was very frustrated that EC was getting more market attention than the Virtua Fighter series in the US and Europe. So, they decided to kill the EC Saturn game and focus all fighting efforts on VF. Even to this day you won’t see any EC characters appearing in Sega games where they have characters from a variety of other games. The ban still holds (what?? – Ed).

Okay, see, this makes a bit more sense. I still don't know if I believe it cuz it seems weirdly petty and doesn't really mesh well with what we know about their relations (again, it bears repeating that most of what's been said about SoJ/SoA isn't 100% the truth), but it's at least more coherent than "we don't want competition for our fighting game proceeds to make other fighting games".

What has me really interested, though, is the part where he suggests that there continued to be a company-wide ban on EC in the coming years, hence why they never showed up in crossovers. I think this kind of necessitates a look at the bigger picture here, to understand that this isn't really some sort of specialized grudge scenario: for the longest time, SEGA has never really utilized any of their American IPs in crossovers. I think it's because they've overall just never been in the most convenient spot: they're not gonna show up in Japanese crossovers/media because most of them aren't popular - and in a couple cases didn't even come out - in Japan (it's even worth noting that SoJ has given some love to the couple that do have small followings over there - namely Ecco and Comix Zone), and they never really got to show up in Western crossovers because it's generally gonna be easier to talk to the Japanese devs/teams who are still at the company. Things seem to be changing right now, with several movie announcements and filed trademarks as part of this new initiative of pushing their IPs worldwide and appealing more to the US, but I think the reason they never got any love until now isn't because of some grudge, it's because they just kinda....didn't really care - and honestly didn't have much of a reason to.

 

[Kirbeh]

Practicality and game feel will always outweigh being referential imo.

Ideally, we should meet somewhere in the middle where the character has a mix of completely made up stuff to fit the fighting game environment and some abilities from their source material. How much of each will depend on the character in question as a few others pointed out already.

On an unrelated note. As a sort of "for fun" topic/game, I wanted to bring up monkey's paw clones/echoes. You get a character that's actually fairly popular/requested but they're a package deal with an unexpected and potentially less desirable character.

For an example: Resident Evil.

Leon is in fact our RE rep, but coming alongside him as an echo- it's Steve Burnside. Specifically using only recycled audio/lines from his original appearance.

How would you feel about RE Steve's inclusion?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Practicality and game feel will always outweigh being referential imo.

Ideally, we should meet somewhere in the middle where the character has a mix of completely made up stuff to fit the fighting game environment and some abilities from their source material. How much of each will depend on the character in question as a few others pointed out already.

On an unrelated note. As a sort of "for fun" topic/game, I wanted to bring up monkey's paw clones/echoes. You get a character that's actually fairly popular/requested but they're a package deal with an unexpected and potentially less desirable character.

For an example: Resident Evil.

Leon is in fact our RE rep, but coming alongside him as an echo- it's Steve Burnside. Specifically using only recycled audio/lines from his original appearance.

How would you feel about RE Steve's inclusion?

I have to admit getting Dante from Devil May Cry at the cost of getting Donte from DMC is a price I'm willing to pay.

 

[Kirbeh]

I have to admit getting Dante from Devil May Cry at the cost of getting Donte from DMC is a price I'm willing to pay.

I'd even accept DMC Dante as the base character,so long as our echo was El Donte Exterminador de demonios.

 

[Gorgonzales]

It wholly depends on the character, which I know is a copout answer but... there are definitely some characters where it would be particularly odd to take extensive liberties. A character like Mario or Link doesn't really require you to think all that abstractly about their moveset potential. Although for most characters who aren't lifted from a fighting game outright, there are always going to have to be a few things made up.

On the whole I think it's more important that the moveset is practical than referential though - the issue with a lot of heavily referential fan movesets is they pay no mind to gameplay cohesion or archetype. There's a reason Donkey Kong doesn't have a coconut gun, and that Ganondorf doesn't use Dead Man's Volley. It's because if you give these characters these tools, something has to give. It's a sacrifice made to make the characters, on the whole, feel more like they're supposed to feel. Donkey Kong being an in your face, handsy physical powerhouse matters a lot more than giving him yet another projectile and neutering his other strengths. So many of these so called liberties or lapses in character representation are for the greater good of making them true to form.

I also feel like there's something to be said about how the more abstract, archetypical moveset adaptations - Fox, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Marth, Incineroar - are probably some of the most effective, tightly designed and/or popular in the whole series. Personally I think, moving forward, they should be taking more notes from these guys than all the bells and whistles of the hyper-accurate DLC characters. There are still dozens of ways to be creative, and underexplored archetypes within Smash, that can make effective and diverse characters and still keep it largely "traditional".

Another thing of note is that you can make a character feel more like themselves without having to resort to shoehorning in gimmicks that try to emulate their home series as perfectly as possible.

DK has great game feel but his personality doesn't come across that great. Make him smile more and act more laid back in his moves, give him his voice, and make his taunts more tilting to the opponent, and he immediately rockets up the tier list of faithfulness on feel alone.

He doesn't need a coconut gun, but I do think he should have a barrel- but not as a projectile (not as its main use, at least). Make it a command grab or something that still fits into his semi-grappler niche, and if he can throw the barrel afterward, make the initial attack hard enough to use that he can't rely on it for zoning.

It's all about balance.

 

[Louie G.]

Another thing of note is that you can make a character feel more like themselves without having to resort to shoehorning in gimmicks that try to emulate their home series as perfectly as possible.

DK has great game feel but his personality doesn't come across that great. Make him smile more and act more laid back in his moves, give him his voice, and make his taunts more tilting to the opponent, and he immediately rockets up the tier list of faithfulness on feel alone.

I think the idea of characters fueled dominantly by... well, character, is very underestimated in these circles. It's why I'm a stickler when it comes to Waluigi movesets... trying to weave a "canon" around him is kind of futile, so the best thing to do is to lean into the strong characterization that he inarguably has in every game to inform an abstract yet character-accurate kit around underhanded cheating tactics and clumsy saturday morning cartoony antics.

This philosophy is already present in Smash to results that, while are sometimes contested, I think are mostly successful. Ridley and Incineroar are recent examples that I find to be really great at it. I know you personally have some reservations about Ridley but surely his characterization as a relentless cold blooded killer is effective and quite a standout presence on the roster. Just as well is Incineroar's hammy showman persona, something that I will deeply miss if we're so unfortunate to lose him next game. And they get to show this off both through dynamic personality driven attacks, many that are made up for this purpose, and animations that suit their respective personalities to a T.

And screw it, Wario is one of the funniest and most dynamic characters on the roster and I'll never be swayed to turn on him. His moveset isn't completely perfect but if you left it up to me, I think I'd keep way more than I would change.

He doesn't need a coconut gun, but I do think he should have a barrel- but not as a projectile (not as its main use, at least). Make it a command grab or something that still fits into his semi-grappler niche, and if he can throw the barrel afterward, make the initial attack hard enough to use that he can't rely on it for zoning.

The reason I specifically said Coconut Gun because I WOULD kinda like to see Donkey Kong use a barrel. I even think it could function as a projectile, it just can't be too much of a camping tool. Use it to force your opponents into position, they could jump over it or block to negate it, and then go in for the respective anti-air or grab. Could be a really valuable tool that compliments Donkey Kong's existing grappler-y playstyle without making him yet another annoying zoner if it encourages the player to make these active choices.

 

[ninjahmos]

I think references are often best saved for reveal trailers (along with taunts and winposes). For example, if Shadow ever gets revealed as a playable character for Smash, they should reference the intro from Sonic Adventure 2: Battle:

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I don't like heavy references when they have to shoehorn every single thing from the original game through weird mechanics. No, Mythra doesn't need foresight, Kazuya doesn't need the 100% rage and Min Min probably doesn't need a reflector.
If it's more like "Hey this character kinda needs to have X, Y and Z as moves" and they build a moveset off of that wirh varying degrees of reinterpretation like Megaman, K. Rool, Cloud or Banjo in recent times or Samus, Link and Yoshi back then, then you're welcome.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I don't like heavy references when they have to shoehorn every single thing from the original game through weird mechanics. No, Mythra doesn't need foresight, Kazuya doesn't need the 100% rage and Min Min probably doesn't need a reflector.
If it's more like "Hey this character kinda needs to have X, Y and Z as moves" and they build a moveset off of that wirh varying degrees of reinterpretation like Megaman, K. Rool, Cloud or Banjo in recent times or Samus, Link and Yoshi back then, then you're welcome.

That's something I'll have to disagree with.

I think it's nice that the Smash devs are willing to experiment with trying to translate stuff like that to see what can potentially work.

And besides, let's be honest here, Kazuya's Rage and Min Min's reflector are far from the worst things about these two. Heck, Min Min's up smash is obnoxious and toxic because it's a (relatively) fast move that can also kill at decent percents and is just quick enough to be somewhat reliable out of shield, which is a very stupid option to give to someone who's supposed to suck at close range. It being a reflector is not the problem here.

 

[Idon]

I do find it funny that due to canon, Mythra just has a better set of dodges than every other character in the game, but earlier characters like Samus can't use any ice when it's one of the most important of her weapons in every mainline game.

I'm down with these changes for the sake of cool references, but I wish the respect went backwards too.

 

[SharkLord]

Hi folks! Since i'm planning to do some moveset concept ideas for some characters in the future, here's a little topic for debate:

Do you prefer movesets that are full of references, or more practical movesets that have some attacks that the characters don't do in their game of origin?
I'm honestly kind of more inclined on the practical side, at the end of the day Smash Bros. is a fast paced game where attacks pass by so quickly that honestly i don't think that movesets should be fully referencial.

I like references, but only when they actually flow coherently. Let's use Sonic as an example, since I've been mulling over a potential rework in my head for a while. I'd personally replace some normals with Sonic Battle animations, because those are cool, dynamic, and would easily translate to a Smash moveset. Like, c'mon, this is prime forward air material

On the flipside for Sonic, I have no desire to see him summon two Flickies on either side of him. That's random, makes no sense at all, and is really just there to make you point and gawk at the reference.

So essentially, references aren't strictly necessary, and if they're just a random reference, it'll be jarring and janky. But if the move actually works as part of the kit, I see no reason to waste a perfectly good attack

 

[PersonAngelo53]

Probably a hot take but I personally like this more referential movesets usually. Yes am the guy that liked even complex movesets like Steve or Hero having a menu with a bunch of spells. Personally I think this gimmicks and references usually make characters stand out more. And is part of the fun to learn how to play this more complicated characters for me.

Tho not like I mind more simple characters either but nonetheless it just so happens the more complicated ones usually end up being my mains lol.

I like references, but only when they actually flow coherently. Let's use Sonic as an example, since I've been mulling over a potential rework in my head for a while. I'd personally replace some normals with Sonic Battle animations, because those are cool, dynamic, and would easily translate to a Smash moveset. Like, c'mon, this is prime forward air material
View attachment 395982
On the flipside for Sonic, I have no desire to see him summon two Flickies on either side of him. That's random, makes no sense at all, and is really just there to make you point and gawk at the reference.

So essentially, references aren't strictly necessary, and if they're just a random reference, it'll be jarring and janky. But if the move actually works as part of the kit, I see no reason to waste a perfectly good attack

I just hope Sonic next game gets a rework moveset with stuff from Sonic Battle and a little bit from Sonic Frontiers. To many new cool attacks in that game to not at least have one or two of them in his moveset.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Hero

I wouldn't exactly call Hero a hodgepodge of references when a lot of his attack animations had to be made up due to the way DQ combat works.

And when a lot of DLC gimmicks are meters and/or comeback mechanics, I think they actually stand out LESS.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I like references, but only when they actually flow coherently. Let's use Sonic as an example, since I've been mulling over a potential rework in my head for a while. I'd personally replace some normals with Sonic Battle animations, because those are cool, dynamic, and would easily translate to a Smash moveset. Like, c'mon, this is prime forward air material
View attachment 395982
On the flipside for Sonic, I have no desire to see him summon two Flickies on either side of him. That's random, makes no sense at all, and is really just there to make you point and gawk at the reference.

So essentially, references aren't strictly necessary, and if they're just a random reference, it'll be jarring and janky. But if the move actually works as part of the kit, I see no reason to waste a perfectly good attack

Pretty much this. "Is this move an innate ability of the character?" and "Does this move contribute toward the character's overall gameplan?" are the two questions that whittle down references to only show up where appropriate (and limits or completely removes obnoxious summoning moves that are often seen in lots of fan movesets).

Your comparison between the Sonic Eagle and the Flickie summoning is probably the most hit-the-nail-on-the-head comparison regarding what types of references should be in a moveset.

 

[SharkLord]

I wouldn't exactly call Hero a hodgepodge of references when a lot of his attack animations had to be made up due to the way DQ combat works.

And when a lot of DLC gimmicks are meters and/or comeback mechanics, I think they actually stand out LESS.

Dragon Quest menus aren't random, to my knowledge, they're hard-set for you to choose. Plus, I believe a handful of Hero's spells just can't be learned by the Heroes in any of the games. As funny as it is, Hero feels like a randomized hodgepodge of spells and RPG elements instead of a coherent moveset

 

[Guynamednelson]

Dragon Quest menus aren't random, to my knowledge, they're hard-set for you to choose. Plus, I believe a handful of Hero's spells just can't be learned by the Heroes in any of the games. As funny as it is, Hero feels like a randomized hodgepodge of spells and RPG elements instead of a coherent moveset

I'm referring to his normals. Those are what I'm saying are made up, but yes the random spell menu is made up too.

 

[PersonAngelo53]

I wouldn't exactly call Hero a hodgepodge of references when a lot of his attack animations had to be made up due to the way DQ combat works.

And when a lot of DLC gimmicks are meters and/or comeback mechanics, I think they actually stand out LESS.

Ehh i personally disagree. Even with all the meters and stuff they all have been used differently enough. No meter has been used exactly the same so far.

Tho true Hero did use a lot of made of stuff too but you get my point.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I do find it funny that due to canon, Mythra just has a better set of dodges than every other character in the game, but earlier characters like Samus can't use any ice when it's one of the most important of her weapons in every mainline game.

I'm down with these changes for the sake of cool references, but I wish the respect went backwards too.

See this is kind of why I'm kind of hoping Samus gets stuff like the Melee Counter, especially when it was retained in Dread after first appearing in Samus Returns.

My only issue is it would probably replace Forward Smash instead of her godawful hard-to-link multi-hit Up Smash lmao

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

See this is kind of why I'm kind of hoping Samus gets stuff like the Melee Counter, especially when it was retained in Dread after first appearing in Samus Returns.

My only issue is it would probably replace Forward Smash instead of her godawful hard-to-link multi-hit Up Smash lmao

I mean, Min Min's reflector was an up smash

Up smash Melee Counter is possible.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It wholly depends on the character, which I know is a copout answer but... there are definitely some characters where it would be particularly odd to take extensive liberties. A character like Mario or Link doesn't really require you to think all that abstractly about their moveset potential. Although for most characters who aren't lifted from a fighting game outright, there are always going to have to be a few things made up.

On the whole I think it's more important that the moveset is practical than referential though - the issue with a lot of heavily referential fan movesets is they pay no mind to gameplay cohesion or archetype. There's a reason Donkey Kong doesn't have a coconut gun, and that Ganondorf doesn't use Dead Man's Volley. It's because if you give these characters these tools, something has to give. It's a sacrifice made to make the characters, on the whole, feel more like they're supposed to feel. Donkey Kong being an in your face, handsy physical powerhouse matters a lot more than giving him yet another projectile and neutering his other strengths. So many of these so called liberties or lapses in character representation are for the greater good of making them true to form.

To an extent, I agree with this.

On the other hand, I'd rather some characters like Ganondorf just get overhauled to have both have a few more moves based directly on some of his abilities from LoZ and a better-balanced moveset in general, while still managing to capture his character archetype.

Ever since Brawl, and even of Ultimate, his current moveset is just...not good. Yeah, a skilled player can still accomplish some incredible stuff with Ganondorf, but he's still one of the most sluggish characters in the game, outclassed by almost every other character on the roster, and references to his character are almost entirely limited to having darkness attack effects, and using a sword for a few attacks. The problem is, despite fulfilling a specific character archetype, Ganondorf in SSB doesn't really feel like Ganondorf. Still being a semi-clone of Captain Falcon even as of Ultimate is just the stale icing on the cake for that.

I'd rather not have most character's movesets be based entirely around referenes as that limits a character's options heavily, gives the unrealistic impression that they somehow can't do anything else like basic punches or kicks, and could easily lead to a chaotic and unbalanced moveset of attacks that don't mesh well with one and other, but there are plenty of ways to cohesively add powers and skills characters are known for having in their debut series without making them poorly balanced or feel out of character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I do find it funny that due to canon, Mythra just has a better set of dodges than every other character in the game, but earlier characters like Samus can't use any ice when it's one of the most important of her weapons in every mainline game.

Hell, Dread even gives Samus a Mythra-like dodge.

Probably a hot take but I personally like this more referential movesets usually.

The ones I don't care for are ones where the character straight up summons another character to do the move for them.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I mean, Min Min's reflector was an up smash

Up smash Melee Counter is possible.

You know that is true, I honestly forgot Melee Counter's animation was an upward swing until I looked at it again just now.

Maybe the days of Samus's terrible Up Smash will finally come to an end...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hell, Dread even gives Samus a Mythra-like dodge.

I don't recall that ever being a thing. Unless you mean Phase Shift which is something else entirely.

 

[Louie G.]

On the other hand, I'd rather some characters like Ganondorf just get overhauled to have both have a few more moves based directly on some of his abilities from LoZ and a better-balanced moveset in general, while still managing to capture his character archetype.

Sure, I just used Ganondorf as an example of a character who like Donkey Kong doesn't really benefit from having an "accurate" move in a projectile attack. This isn't me saying characters should never change, it's saying changes shouldn't simply be made to accommodate canon. I'd still like to see him reworked and adjusted accordingly but giving him an excuse to camp out doesn't feel like the best way to represent the full capacity of the Triforce of Power. It really can't be overstated how much a strong projectile discourages players from interacting, lol.

The goal was obviously to create a stupidly hard hitting powerhouse of a character which was achieved, nitpicks and criticism of being a semiclone aside. I like the way Project M handled it where Dead Man's Volley becomes a reflector instead of a projectile attack. I'm open to something like that, Ganondorf really does need a way to deal with projectiles at least.

 

[SharkLord]

I think I remember a concept floated up a while back where DK's Coconut Gun and Barrel are less for zoning and more for setups - They're easily shieldable or jumpable, but that gives DK time to get in your face and do some real damage. That sounded like a cool way to keep some references while still making the kit coherent enough

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm still kind of hoping that if Sonic gets a moveset rework, they keep Spin Dash as his Down B but change his Side B to Light Speed Dash from Sonic Adventure.

 

[cashregister9]

I do find it interesting how the "2 Flickies" problem is not as prevalent in Smash Bros. proper as the discussion around it may seem. Personally I agree with the general consensus of "As long as the moveset is well designed first and the references fit thematically (aka, don't turn everyone into Game & Watch), I don't care about how many references there are, I think they can be pretty cool"

On a simliar note, What is the opinion on "movesets based on one game when there are many things to draw from" So not things like Joker but things like turning Zelda into only an Echoes Of Wisdom fighter or making Sonic only use moves from Frontiers stuff like that. Personally I dislike it, it makes it really easy to date a character and does not feel as fun (again unless the character itself is hyper specific like Toon Link)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On a simliar note, What is the opinion on "movesets based on one game when there are many things to draw from" So not things like Joker but things like turning Zelda into only an Echoes Of Wisdom fighter or making Sonic only use moves from Frontiers stuff like that. Personally I dislike it, it makes it really easy to date a character and does not feel as fun.

I don't really mind it. As long as it keeps the overall vibe of how someone is in the modern day, it's still valid.

Like, Sora only uses stuff from the first game and while games after it added a lot of sauce, the stuff he has here is still recurring enough to feel up to date despite being over 20 years old. Aside from down special, he totally should've had Strike Raid.

But then you have Zelda whose moveset is definitely showing its age now that the Switch Era had given her some actual prominence beyond "has a light bow" that we see in the majority of the franchise. Her specials being the three Goddess spells from OoT (which were used by Link, not her) and a reference to a now-15-year-old game (which was added in Smash 4) are not exactly the freshest ideas in the year 2024.

 

[cashregister9]

I don't really mind it. As long as it keeps the overall vibe of how someone is in the modern day, it's still valid.

Like, Sora only uses stuff from the first game and while games after it added a lot of sauce, the stuff he has here is still recurring enough to feel up to date despite being over 20 years old. Aside from down special, he totally should've had Strike Raid.

But then you have Zelda whose moveset is definitely showing its age now that the Switch Era had given her some actual prominence beyond "has a light bow" we see in the majority of the franchise. Her specials being the three Goddess spells from OoT (which were used by Link, not her) and a reference to a now-15-year-old game (which was added in Smash 4) are not exactly the freshest ideas in the year 2024.

I didn't actually think about Sora falling into this category, yeah he totally counts and I really dig his moveset.

I guess my problem is entirely vibes based. Like I think Zelda needs a refreshed moveset, but an Echoes of Wisdom based moveset where she becomes a summoner, just feels worse in concept than her current one.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I do find it funny that due to canon, Mythra just has a better set of dodges than every other character in the game, but earlier characters like Samus can't use any ice when it's one of the most important of her weapons in every mainline game.

I'm down with these changes for the sake of cool references, but I wish the respect went backwards too.

Funny how you compare Mythra to Samus considering she has the worst dodge in the game also due to cannon. lol

As for where and when to draw upon inspiration for characters, I think for the most part Sakurai does a great job. There are a few examples where it goes can go awry on both older and newer characters, with newer characters sometimes having mechanics that annoy players, and older ones feeling a tad dated if they're based off of their appearances in the ~90's or just have moves that are boring.

For the former, most of Ultimate's DLC fighter mechanics are complained about whenever they come up. I think of these things are due to being overtuned. For example, I doubt people would complain about Pyra/Mythra (barring Foresight) if they weren't as strong as they are, and Kazuya wouldn't be as maligned if Electric Wind God Fist didn't play neutral for him and allow him to have consistant 0->deaths as his gameplan. I think this is true of Min Min and Steve as well, but their playstyles are inherently more inflamitory than the others, and I don't think there's a version of them that people will like. In that sense, I'd say those two are the best examples.

For the latter, Zelda is probably the best example. She's based off of a ~20 year old game, and has a terrible track record. In Melee her moveset doesn't work, and she's garbage. In Brawl, her moveset doesn't work, and she's garbage. In SSB4, she gets a new move! But her moveset still doesn't work, and she's garbage. In Ultimate, they buffed the new move, so now that move plays the game for her because the rest of the moveset still doesn't work. At some point you realized that you need to change something.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

On a simliar note, What is the opinion on "movesets based on one game when there are many things to draw from" So not things like Joker but things like turning Zelda into only an Echoes Of Wisdom fighter or making Sonic only use moves from Frontiers stuff like that. Personally I dislike it, it makes it really easy to date a character and does not feel as fun (again unless the character itself is hyper specific like Toon Link)

Well, since a singular video game often makes it a point to balance out the player's options, I think limiting a character's moveset to one game can result in a well-rounded moveset. I'd still prefer characters to pull from multiple games, to cover more of their history, but a handful of characters like Sora wouldn't be bad.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think a good way of looking at it is this:

• Focusing on a single game is great for characters that only appear in one game, or are most notable for appearing in one game.
• Including things from a variety of games is good for characters who's base abilities grow from game to game.
• If a character's abilities vary wildly from game to game, it's best to keep their iconic ones, and ignore the rest.
• Characters without a lot of workable source material will have to take a lot of creative liberties and/or make most of their moveset up.
• Most characters need to make stuff up to flesh out the rest of their moveset.

A lot of characters will be in multiple different camps. For example, Simon focuses on two games, cross-pollinating with Richter's game to form a fully fledged moveset. Mario feels dated because his base abilities have grown since 64, and his moveset hasn't reflected this, but also, including more recent abilities can be difficult as they vary wildly in thematics, and are only relevant for a little while.

There are also exceptions like how Mega Man and Mr. Game & Watch successfully contextualize their hodge-podgey movesets, and Link is constantly updated to reflect the changes in their iconic tools.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I didn't actually think about Sora falling into this category, yeah he totally counts and I really dig his moveset.

I guess my problem is entirely vibes based. Like I think Zelda needs a refreshed moveset, but an Echoes of Wisdom based moveset where she becomes a summoner, just feels worse in concept than her current one.

I honestly think BotW and TotK works best for moveset inspiration for Zelda and Ganondorf. Zelda can take creative liberties from it and just be a light mage, projectile and zoner based. Echoes of Wisdom can be used as an inspiration for say, Down B. Which already is a summoning move anyway. Replace that with a Dark Nut summon or any other strong monster Echo and that's good. Maybe as a dash attack the staff spinning move? And use that as a Neutral Air too.

Anyway I do think that move sets should both make sense for a character and use references if they're necessary. DK was used as an example and I'd say that yes, a barrel throw is necessary even if it sort of conflicts with what DK does now with the grappling thing. It's not that a Side B is a better option anyway, and Smash doesn't need to have all their characters fit a certain mold anyway. The Coconut Gun doesn't fit however.

 

[Perkilator]

You guys know how with NASB, the characters were only allowed to have official alternate appearances as alternate costumes? Honestly, I think that might serve to the benefit of Noah and Mio, since Xenoblade 3 has plenty of alternate outfits for them. What other characters (be they newcomer or veteran) do you think would benefit from their alts consisting entirely of official alternate appearances?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You guys know how with NASB, the characters were only allowed to have official alternate appearances as alternate costumes? Honestly, I think that might serve to the benefit of Noah and Mio, since Xenoblade 3 has plenty of alternate outfits for them. What other characters (be they newcomer or veteran) do you think would benefit from their alts consisting entirely of official alternate appearances?

Pokémon Trainer.

Just imagine each alt being a different playable trainer. There are enough enough generations for each Trainer to be from a unique region.