Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

Oh no, Banjo Kazooie didn’t sell a bazillion units in 1998.

To be fair, how many units a game sold=/=how many people played a game in total, especially back in the days when rentals and used games were more common.

Hell, Mega Man games rarely sell a million copies, but they still have millions of fans thanks to factors like these, how much Mega Man fan content you can find online, and...well...

 

[SharkLord]

Thoughts on Alear's (Engage) chances?

Hmm, well...

Ever since Fates, Fire Emblem has settled into a stable two-year release gap for every game. The only exception was Engage, which was going to be released in 2021 for the franchise's 30th anniversary, but was pushed back because COVID mucked up all the release schedules. The world is no longer under lockdown, so we'll probably return to the usual rhythm and have a 2025 release. This also lines up well with the Switch 2's launch, as it's slated to be revealed by March of next year and will probably release within the same year, so a 2025 Fire Emblem game would serve as a strong launch title.

Now, Smash usually releases about 2-ish years into a console's lifespan, give or take. According to the rumor mill, the Switch 2 was pushed back a bit to shore up launch titles, so Smash 6 might come a little sooner, but it's too early to tell. Regardless, we'll almost certainly have a new Fire Emblem game by then, and if are any indication, that new game will have a slot readied in advance to keep up with the relevant new titles. With that in mind, I'm almost certain Alear's ship has sailed

Potentially stupid question.

Does Steve count as a PoC?

Compared to the other Smashers I always saw him as a strange, block-based eldritch being. By Minecraft standards, he's pretty ambiguous, like other people said. Oftentimes the merch makes him white, but the original skin is a medium brown that's hard to parse

Adeleine has a pretty quick setup in Star Allies, as well as a move that lets her control the big bosses she creates. I'd imagine she'd be more of a fusion of Pokemon Trainer's idea with some Rosalina sprinkled in. Could still be a volatile moveset, though.


I wouldn't qualify Fighters 2 as evidence. That game was apparently only made as a pandemic project, and the quality shows pretty hard.

Yeah, KF2 and Gooey was more of an interesting trivia tidbit than a major appearance. I just thought it was curious and relevant to the current discussion. Most likely, it's because Gooey was given a relatively simple kit in Star Allies that could easily translate to a platform fighter, compared to something like Marx or Dark Meta Knight's giant attacks or Susie's mech suit

 

[Deleted member]

I think they can continue to coast by on Three Houses given that it’s still a prominent Switch game, Byleth was added late into Ultimate’s life and Engage failed to match its impact or popularity. I don’t exactly anticipate another major game will come and obscure Engage either, I just do not think adding a new Fire Emblem protagonist will be a priority this time.

As mentioned before, Alear’s best chance is that they inspire some striking new gameplay mechanic or moveset potential. That’s possible, but it really just doesn’t seem like this game set the world on fire in a way that makes it tremendously likely. We have word from Sakurai that even Awakening may have missed the boat if Smash 4’s timing had been different… Alear is far past that honeymoon period.

Fair point, engage seems fairly niche compared to modern FE titles.

 

[Laniv]

I'll admit, I forgot about Ganondorf. But still…

By definition a character of color is someone who isn't white. So in addition to Ganondorf, we have...

Ryu (Japanese)
Ken (I think? 3/4 Japanese)
Kazuya (Japanese)
Min Min (Chinese)
Joker (Japanese)
Ice Climbers (implicitly Indigenous)

That said, I'd like a fighter that's actually, unambiguously black. Like Barret Wallace. Or Doc Louis. Or hey, Mr. Sandman could work!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Streets of Rage has a pretty group of POC characters (Adam, Skate, Cherry, & Floyd) who would all make for cool Smash additions (though in all likelihood it would be Blaze or Adam getting the nod).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Or hey, Mr. Sandman could work!

I like Doc a lot, but Sandman is my favorite Punch Out!! choice.

Dreamlaaaaaaaaaaaand.

 

[SharkLord]

And to give Smash credit, most of the avatars in the game (barring Fire Emblem ones) allow for different skin tones now. I can kind of understand why Byleth doesn't allow that considering you can't change their design.

But why can't you change Robin's or Corrin's skin tones? You could radically change their designs in their home games.

I don't remember if you could change their skin tones or not in the 3DS games. Could you? It's been a long, long time since I played Awakening.

Regardless, I'm kinda hoping the next FE takes a departure from the usual vaguely Western European setting next game. They could lean into the Islamic-styled kingdoms they've been slowly adding during the Switch era, like Almyra and Solm, or they could give us a fully Japanese Fire Emblem, rather than having a vaguely East Asian Myrmidon or having to juggle Hoshido and Nohr between multiple installments

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Oh no, Banjo Kazooie didn’t sell a bazillion units in 1998. That means it isn’t good, and people who grew up with it and remember it fondly shouldn’t talk about it anymore.

Jokes aside this is an interesting phenomenon I’ve witnessed, this pushback to mid-late 2000’s gaming YouTubers that made videos about their favorite childhood games. Like how dare people be nostalgic.

And obviously some weirdos take it too far and **** on anything new, but are they really the majority?

Rare haters in particular have always been very vocal for some reason, even 20 years ago. Banjo probably didn't get it as much, but I remember the Real Nintendo Fans swearing up and down that the DKCs were mediocre platformers that only sold because of their graphics, that the Kongs' designs suck and are dated, that DK64 is the worst thing that ever happened to gaming, and so on and so on...

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I like Doc a lot, but Sandman is my favorite Punch Out!! choice.

Dreamlaaaaaaaaaaaand.

Great Tiger is objectively the best option.

You know that "ain't no air fighter" bull****?

....yeaaaaaaah......probably the only character in the entire game that doesn't mean jack for.


....excluding Donkey Kong for obvious reasons.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Hell, Mega Man games rarely sell a million copies, but they still have millions of fans thanks to factors like these, how much Mega Man fan content you can find online, and...well...

The problem is that Capcom has so many iconic, beloved characters and franchises, that they don't really need a definitive company mascot.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

What about Urbosa or Riju? I honestly think any of the Champions or Sages would be great additions to the roster. All of them barring maybe Teba (who's still a great character in his own right) get about equal screentime and have plenty of unique abilities that would make for great movesets in Smash, and those two are no exception.

I'll also vouch for Doc Louis as well. I just think his chances would be much higher if another Punch-Out game had released since the Wii game (which one sadly hasn't).

I've thought Riju was the best option for a new Zelda character for a while now. Not only adds some actual diversity, but I would say her moveset potential strikes me as being very intuitively engaging. Scimitars are unique weapons for Smash, and that + her lightning element lends itself well to the kind of explosive glass cannon rushdown character that everybody naturally is drawn to. I think her personality is a lot more defined than some other characters too and allows for some natural animations befitting that kind of confidence.

Twitter dustup from a few years ago when a user posted this:

Kind of a fallacious argument given that initial success (or lack thereof) hardly determines cultural legacy (one need only look at films that bombed at the box office that later went on to become more beloved than the films that beat them to see that). Also, a bit of a cart before the horse line of thinking that content creators determine cultural fandom/popularity when it's very often the other way around.

I do think there's a worthwhile discussion about how Nintendo-centric discussion of videogame history can be. The most public figures in video games which most people are exposed to are American, which was Nintendo's domain console-wise for years, and that leads to Nintendo taking up more of a mindshare in discussion of history. You see comparitively very little discussion about Europe for example, where Nintendo had much more reduced presence, and personal computers blossomed. The "video game crash of 1983" is called that instead of the "American video game crash of 1983" even though it had no presence in Europe essentially. Who's talking about that? Accursed Farms maybe? Even beyond that, what about games like Ultima Underworld, an American game which is massively influential on the development of 3D graphics and the interactivity of 3D space, yet has most of its influence completely overshadowed by titles like Mario 64? It's not like Ultima Underworld isn't a popular game in its own right.

I don't think it's like an incredibly serious issue, but it's worth acknowledging and keeping in mind. I'm reminded of seeing a list from a European magazine of the 15 best videogames of all time voted by its readers, and there wasn't a single Nintendo game on there, it was dominated by PC games. It's a difficult situation, because Nintendo's importance to gaming history is difficult to overstate, and that paradoxically makes it incredibly easy to overstate.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Twitter dustup from a few years ago when a user posted this:

Kind of a fallacious argument given that initial success (or lack thereof) hardly determines cultural legacy (one need only look at films that bombed at the box office that later went on to become more beloved than the films that beat them to see that). Also, a bit of a cart before the horse line of thinking that content creators determine cultural fandom/popularity when it's very often the other way around.

what’s funny is that I played both of these games as a kid and can tell you from experience how much better Banjo is. And I’m no Rare fanboy.

Even back then Croc was thoroughly unremarkable.

 

[Will]

Hey look! We are now in the Scrimblo discussion.

A Scrimblo is a Scrimblo.

No matter their differences.

I can’t tell if you’re being derogatory or not.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh no, it absolutely is.

Once you actually smack someone you move into a turn based menu with the same AoEs and timeline.

The biggest difference is instead of a grid, it just has the characters placed naturally like how they've done it with Cold Steel and beyond.

2B always seemed like a character they could add as DLC.

 

[fogbadge]

I'll admit, I forgot about Ganondorf. But still…

also min min

 

[JCKirbs]

I would argue that the Octacon drawing she made in Star Allies (and possibly the implications of the old Twitter art) suggests she has the ability to draw creatures from across the series. This is the one thing that could potentially give her an advantage over the rest, as she could carry other aspects of the series just through her art, mitigating the high Super Star bias Smash typically has. Of course, it would... probably be better if there were other characters standing as Kirby representatives on their own, but it nonetheless seems like an option.

Yeah, what's neat about her drawings is that they even cover the more obscure/rarely-seen obstacles and enemies from the previous era.
Perhaps she could also dabble into the Modern Era, though I could also see characters like Magolor also having that covered. I could imagine something like this:

Adeleine - Representing the Dark Matter era (and potentially beyond, like Canvas/Rainbow Curse and other marginally overlooked games).
Gooey - Representing Dark Matter itself and possibly its associates.
(Bandana) Waddle Dee - Representing the most iconic species in the series, an uprising in enhanced roles, as well as an ability exclusive to the Modern Era, bringing a new playstyle which feels right at home with the others.
Magolor - Representing the emergence of dimension traveling alongside a controlled/inherent use of magic.

Anyone other possible candidates could stick to representing individual games, in a hypothetical world in which we actually manage getting even five Kirby characters on a single roster.

 

[Perkilator]

2B always seemed like a character they could add as DLC.

…Idon didn’t mention 2B at all.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of this is rooted in an overreaction to a general strongly strong Nintendo presence online and the various assumptions/myths that context has brought. Especially when YouTube got big, the site was (and some would claim still is) rife with people largely familiar with Nintendo's history of games. Nothing wrong with that obviously, but when certain dated history was often cited (often the degree of the company's effect in the 1983 video game crash and/or the innovations attributed to them) many people outside that fandom eventually noticed and there was pushback.

Now thanks to archivists/historians/playthrough makers/journalists etc. we have a much more accurate picture of stuff like gaming history, the cultural context of various games in different regions, and the nuts and bolts of how various titles/consoles developed than we did 15 years ago. Not to mention voices coming from all sorts of different sectors in the hobby. While this has led to a more balanced focus on all parts of gaming, that lingering shadow of Nintendo (and the quasi-cultural monopoly early content creators also had) has led to an unfortunate blowback where fans of it are accused of excessive myopia about the company beyond the point of correcting history and clearly coming from those with an axe to grind.

Sega's history and games are going through a similar process now where the ongoing process of better understanding that company in the 90s/early 2000s beyond the simplistic narrative of stuff like Console Wars and just the (fairly biased) accounts of SoA has occasionally led to some hostility. SoJ's side lacked a real voice for so long and the broader nature of that company's complete history (pre-MegaDrive, Saturn, and arcades) was so misunderstood that those grateful to finally explain both can get excessive against SoA and their respective fans; not out of real malice but frustration that the accurate context of the company is still not fully grasped.

tl;dr The desire to have content and analysis outside a perceived bubble can lead to misplaced criticism when not carefully tempered.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I can’t tell if you’re being derogatory or not.

The term went from mocking 3D platformers, to basically describing any platformer video game with a cartoony aesthetic.
Except Kid Dracula

 

[Opossum]

By definition a character of color is someone who isn't white. So in addition to Ganondorf, we have...

Ryu (Japanese)
Ken (I think? 3/4 Japanese)
Kazuya (Japanese)
Min Min (Chinese)
Joker (Japanese)
Ice Climbers (implicitly Indigenous)

That said, I'd like a fighter that's actually, unambiguously black. Like Barret Wallace. Or Doc Louis. Or hey, Mr. Sandman could work!

In addition to these, the two others are Simon and Richter, since it's implied that, through Sypha, they have at least some Romani heritage.

 

[SharkLord]

By definition a character of color is someone who isn't white. So in addition to Ganondorf, we have...

Ryu (Japanese)
Ken (I think? 3/4 Japanese)
Kazuya (Japanese)
Min Min (Chinese)
Joker (Japanese)
Ice Climbers (implicitly Indigenous)

That said, I'd like a fighter that's actually, unambiguously black. Like Barret Wallace. Or Doc Louis. Or hey, Mr. Sandman could work!

Depending on how we slice it, there's also the Pokemon Trainers (From Kanto, which is literally just the Kanto region of Japan with Pokemon), Snake (Originally of British-Japanese descent in the MSX2 manual, later retconned into having a Japanese DNA donor for his cloning process, though I don't think it's highlighted that often), and with some stretching maaaaybe Daisy (She rules over four kingdoms based on nations that don't have a white majority and sometimes given a bit of a tan, though for most of her appearances she's about as pale as Peach) and Sora (He's got brown hair and blue eyes, but he's also got a Japanese name, grew up on a tropical island and most Kingdom Hearts characters have unrealistic hair and eye colors, so there's some wiggle room with the interpretations. Still, nothing concrete)

If everyone in Smash was just a strange little creature, ethnic diversity wouldn't be highlighted much, but it is noticeable when over 50 fighters are humanoid and the vast majority appears white by default, only cracking the double digits with alts, obscure lore, or theories and headcanons.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

In addition to these, the two others are Simon and Richter, since it's implied that, through Sypha, they have at least some Romani heritage.

I believe Little Mac has Mediterranean heritage as well. Or maybe I'm misremembering that.

 

[Laniv]

...Is Captain Falcon Japanese?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I believe Little Mac has Mediterranean heritage as well. Or maybe I'm misremembering that.

That'd be news to me. If anything I'd think he'd be Italian since he was initially based on Rocky Balboa.

 

[SharkLord]

In addition to these, the two others are Simon and Richter, since it's implied that, through Sypha, they have at least some Romani heritage.

Huh, really? Can't find any of that on the Castlevania Wiki. At the very least her Netflix portrayal casts her as from a group of nomads that bear some resemblance to the Romani, but the wiki also draws comparisons to Jews and the Cathars, so it doesn't seem like a clear comparison (Though I haven't seen the show so I can't confirm)

...Is Captain Falcon Japanese?

I coulda sworn there was a trivia tidbit on that, but I can't find a source

That'd be news to me. If anything he'd be Italian since he was initially based on Rocky Balboa.

I mean, Italy is Mediterannean...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

...Is Captain Falcon Japanese?

According to the anime he's a brunette white dude.

And then he's Rick Wheeler.

That'd be news to me. If anything he'd be Italian since he was initially based on Rocky Balboa.

Is Italian not Mediterranean?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, Italy is Mediterannean...

Is Italian not Mediterranean?

Sorry, I just think of Greece more than Italy when I think "Mediterranean".

 

[Slime Scholar]

In addition to these, the two others are Simon and Richter, since it's implied that, through Sypha, they have at least some Romani heritage.

don’t really want to get into the weeds on this one but for all practical purposes Simon and Richter are two white dudes.

I believe Little Mac has Mediterranean heritage as well. Or maybe I'm misremembering that.

I can't say for sure what Nintendo or even Next Level Games' exact intentions were, but in the commercial for Punch-Out Wii, he was played by an actual boxer named Paul Malignaggi, and they were explicitly looking for an Italian-American.

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Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

Huh, really? Can't find any of that on the Castlevania Wiki. At the very least her Netflix portrayal casts her as from a group of nomads that bear some resemblance to the Romani, but the wiki also draws comparisons to Jews and the Cathars, so it doesn't seem like a clear comparison (Though I haven't seen the show so I can't confirm)

Sypha is from Wallachia, which is historical Romania, we don't know if she's native but it seems likely. The future descendants of the Belmont clan have Belnades blood in them, which is why Juste can use magic. That said, I basically agree with what Slime mentioned.

 

[Schnee117]

The whole "why does representation matter in a game with goofy fighters" thing rings hollow when other fighting games let you play as Bears, Kangaroos, Velociraptors, various types of aliens and monsters, skeletons, robots etc. and yet still find plenty of room to have representation in them.

It's only an indictment on Smash that at 89 characters in, it struggles to hit the double digits without looking towards things that people can't even agree on.

 

[AreJay25]

Well this is interesting.

Guilty Gear Strive Nintendo Switch Edition banner spotted at PAX West https://t.co/GLEtU5RsXY pic.twitter.com/TgGK1iKgw4

— Wario64 (@Wario64) August 28, 2024

Kinda weird that this is happening so late (there's no way the game's netcode doesn't take a massive hit lmao), but hey, more fuel for some Guilty Gear representation.

 

[Guynamednelson]

(there's no way the game's netcode doesn't take a massive hit lmao)

Not just the netcode

It's gonna look like Guilty Gear X on the GBA

 

[Idon]

…Idon didn’t mention 2B at all.

Yes, but I imagine that has to do with my new signature lol.

2B always seemed like a character they could add as DLC.

Agreed, but honestly we're approaching a decade on her release so at this point, it's a bit of a white whale. She had a very similar situation to Joker, but clearly one caught Sakurai's eye more than the other. One day I might swap her out for someone more recent or with a longer legacy but for now, this is about my top 10-ish characters, split between first and third party inclusions.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

I'm just gonna quote myself and say like, while Smash is a reflection of a subsect of the games industry to a certain extent, that sentiment is also treating Smash like its roster is built entirely without human input. It's not like Smash is made by an AI which absorbs the videogame industry and spits it back out into a roster of what's most popular, it's still a human making the game and deciding who gets in based on a variety of factors. Not including a more diverse selection of characters is, ultimately, a choice, and Smash lacking so heavily in that regard is pretty obvious. I don't think it would hurt anyone if diversity in that regard was considered more.

Well this is interesting.

Guilty Gear Strive Nintendo Switch Edition banner spotted at PAX West https://t.co/GLEtU5RsXY pic.twitter.com/TgGK1iKgw4

— Wario64 (@Wario64) August 28, 2024

Kinda weird that this is happening so late (there's no way the game's netcode doesn't take a massive hit lmao), but hey, more fuel for some Guilty Gear representation.

Strive is actually like less impressive technically than it looks from what I've read, it's lighting engine is like kind of the equivalent of those "mario in unreal engine 5 nintendo hire this man" demos, they're using already existing tech in a way people just haven't spotted before. Still gonna be a big hit to fidelity though, and the netcode is gonna be **** lol.

 

[ninjahmos]

Well this is interesting.

Guilty Gear Strive Nintendo Switch Edition banner spotted at PAX West https://t.co/GLEtU5RsXY pic.twitter.com/TgGK1iKgw4

— Wario64 (@Wario64) August 28, 2024

Kinda weird that this is happening so late (there's no way the game's netcode doesn't take a massive hit lmao), but hey, more fuel for some Guilty Gear representation.

Sweet! That means Sol and/or Ky may have a chance.

 

[AreJay25]

Not just the netcode

It's gonna look like Guilty Gear X on the GBA

Hey let's be fair now. It'll look as good as Dust Strikers.

... in all seriousness, it'll probably be on par with the DBFZ port, which is genuinely solid. But yeah it's more than likely just going to be a training mode on the go for most people lmao.

 

[Idon]

Sweet! That means Sol and/or Ky may have a chance.

A GG rep has always had a "chance" even if we necessitate a Nintendo release.

I don't think this changes much for their chances specifically, but it is neat to see.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I unironically love the idea of cramming the entire roster of a game, and making it into a single composite character/fusion that has every attack on it's disposal.

It worked for Ness and Lucas having PK attacks from the other party members and also Mr. Game & Watch with his moveset borrowed from various G&W machines, but imagine that but with other franchises.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I unironically love the idea of cramming the entire roster of a game, and making it into a single composite character/fusion that has every attack on it's disposal.

It worked for Ness and Lucas having PK attacks from the other party members and also Mr. Game & Watch with his moveset borrowed from various G&W machines, but imagine that but with other franchises.

Tbh, that's how I hope a Rhythm Heaven character goes since the games are pretty simplistic and I can't really imagine one of the characters (like the Chorus Kids) ONLY using what they do in their specific stage. I'd prefer a bunch of references to the various stages involved, like a recovery using the Huebirds of Happiness, an Up Throw or Up Smash using Courtney from Fruit Basket, even animations like their roll being taken from Flipper Flop, things like that.

Heck, if we get a RH character, I want their Final Smash to be a typical group beatdown but framed as a Remix, if possible lol

 

[fogbadge]

I unironically love the idea of cramming the entire roster of a game, and making it into a single composite character/fusion that has every attack on it's disposal.

It worked for Ness and Lucas having PK attacks from the other party members and also Mr. Game & Watch with his moveset borrowed from various G&W machines, but imagine that but with other franchises.

hmm only that wasn’t the entire roster of the game