Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[osby]

There's a couple things it could be.

The 'Sakurai is bias' bit people pulled back in Smash 4 may've played a role. Back when it first released a lot of fans cried fowl when she and Dark Pit got in and KI had a large amount of content in the game that was ported over from Uprising. A lot of fans back then were already trying to dismiss her demand and rewrite history to pretend she was a bias pick, and it somehow may've stuck.

Another potential reason is that, yeah, KI went back into dormancy and we're now about a decade out from Smash 4's release. Many fans may not be aware of her high popularity and demand from the pre-release period or how well received both her and Uprising were at that time, so they may be falsely justifying her inclusion as bias without knowing the full story.

Regardless, it's one of the weirdest cases of character reception changing dramatically in the fandom.

I'd argue that the same thing happened with a good number of newcomers after Brawl.

• Roy was a huge request in Smash 4, yet people often ignore his popularity nowadays. Same with Chrom.
• Inklings are still treated as promo picks to this day. Sure, there's no way Nintendo wasn't going to add them but it's weird that they are almost never included in fan-favorite groups
• Greninja is often categorized among flavor-of-the-month picks instead of one of the most popular Pokemon of all times
• The majority of the fandom went from "Bayonetta wasn't the Fighter Poll no 1" to "absolutely nobody asked for Bayonetta" even though she was a large request along with other Wii U era exclusive third parties
• An XC2 and ARMS character was requested a lot but Pyra/Mythra and Min Min weren't what people expected so they get the shill pick treatment far more often than they should

I don't think it's something unique to Palutena. I just think Smash fandom has a problem with calling characters promotional/bias additions without good reasoning and it's getting worse with time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Albeit, Greninja was chosen before the popularity, something different from other cases, but it doesn't change that it's massively popular anyway and it's silly to act like it won't matter at all.

Veterans do return for popularity reasons too. We do have a fairly good indication that veteran popularity also affected the Smash Poll, which is most likely part of why Everyone Is Here was even worth investing in. It's a massive licensing nightmare, so tons of popularity towards it does help suggest it's worth it. Not that it's likely to ever happen again anytime soon. Too many 3rd parties now to make it easily feasible. Ultimate wasn't exactly easy to get base game alone, so.

 

[RodNutTakin]

I'd argue that the same thing happened with a good number of newcomers after Brawl.

• Roy was a huge request in Smash 4, yet people often ignore his popularity nowadays. Same with Chrom.
• Inklings are still treated as promo picks to this day. Sure, there's no way Nintendo wasn't going to add them but it's weird that they are almost never included in fan-favorite groups
• Greninja is often categorized among flavor-of-the-month picks instead of one of the most popular Pokemon of all times
• The majority of the fandom went from "Bayonetta wasn't the Fighter Poll no 1" to "absolutely nobody asked for Bayonetta" even though she was a large request along with other Wii U era exclusive third parties
• An XC2 and ARMS character was requested a lot but Pyra/Mythra and Min Min weren't what people expected so they get the shill pick treatment far more often than they should

I don't think it's something unique to Palutena. I just think Smash fandom has a problem with calling characters promotional/bias additions without good reasoning and it's getting worse with time.

Here's how I view some of these talking points:

• Roy was a case of being a large fish in a tiny pond when everyone was wanting him back. The selection of cut veterans was rather ankle-deep, and most other FE fans were focused on Awakening, which had gotten satisfactory representation already. Nowadays, with the FE fandom ballooning not once but twice (the second time thanks to Three Houses), and the "Marth-etype" becoming a heated talking point amongst Smash circles after Ultimate, I feel that a lot of the fandom around Roy has shrunken, with more people wanting to see more original concepts for FE fighters at this point. As for Chrom, I would mainly say that's also a byproduct of the FE fandom exploding in size post-3H, though it doesn't help that there's indication that Chrom was considered an afterthought by the actual Smash devteam as well.
• I don't see that rhetoric around Greninja that much because people keep citing it getting #1 on an official popularity poll, but even then, it would still be fair to consider Greninja being intended as a "FOTM" pick at the time, much like Ike was in Brawl, because both were initially literally penned down as "new character" placeholders on their respective project plans, and it just so happened that audiences ended up enjoying both characters a lot, causing both of them to gain that pretty important merit of being popular after the fact. Basically, I'd say it's a matter on if you're classifying it on what it was at the time it was added, versus what it is now.
• On the other hand, I very much recall people being very divided about Bayonetta even back when she was first revealed, and doubtful about her results in the ballot. Discourse was certainly there from the start, and I do not remember anyone really bringing her up consistently prior to the fact...at least, not from what I remember browing on this very site some nine years ago.
• In fairness, the backlash towards Pyra/Mythra and Min Min was mainly because they came in "late", or at least, that's the sentiment I gathered. Had those characters been on the base roster instead of taking up Challenger Packs, I doubt there would've been as much ire drawn towards them.

 

[Borskaboska]

Now I kinda want to see a graph with how requested every character was before they were added. I had no idea palutena had so many shooters out here tbh.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Now I kinda want to see a graph with how requested every character was before they were added. I had no idea palutena had so many shooters out here tbh.

Palutena was a top five character on Shorts' old poll. Like the only characters above here were Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool, Mega Man and Little Mac.

 

[fogbadge]

Who else should I be looking at exactly? Genuine question. The absence of some of the glaring examples like Ridley were explained to us in detail before finally switching up and making it work. The series that people tended to suggest Sakurai was biased against were DK and Metroid, to which Ultimate directly responded. Maybe nowadays Zelda is the most frustrating example? But that series has supplemental content in spades, from stages to music to ATs etc. I think it would be difficult to make the case that Sakurai is biased toward Zelda, although we can question his personal philosophy on these characters.

Sakurai's characters on the roster are Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, Pit and Palutena. I'm not counting Dark Pit because he probably took like a weekend to implement... we're not going to die on this hill over echo fighters. These seem like pretty fair lineups for these series, they highlight their most important players, and all of them were highly requested. It's not like we piled on Marx and Viridi too (although I wish we did).

You do have a series like Fire Emblem that is often cited as an example of Sakurai bias, but the state of things is easily explained by Fire Emblem's game to game progression and the existence of Everyone is Here, which required them all to be back. Corrin is the most egregious one and apparently it was the rest of the team that wanted them, not Sakurai. Byleth was chosen by Nintendo. It wasn't really seen as an issue until Smash 4 DLC.

If the conflict is which characters were specifically the ones chosen, then that is quite literally impossible to decide without "bias". If I directed Smash, I would have my own biases. I like avatar characters less, I don't care if a character has only appeared in one game. I think Ridley could have worked sooner and frankly I don't care a whole lot about Fire Emblem. This perspective is going to be totally different no matter who's in charge. So nobody is trying to argue the man is flawless and without his own perspective - I can certainly disagree with Sakurai over some decisions, but it's not like I think it's possible to replace him with a robot of a director who makes all the right choices all the time. I'm willing to say Sakurai spreads the love a lot better then most other directors would, and has the freedom to be more out there with his choices instead of following a play by play of who the most important and marketable Nintendo characters at a given time may be. "Next in line" isn't really a tangible or objective thing.

So I went to bed to see if things made any more sense in the morning but now it reads like you're saying sakurai is bias and that proves he's not bias. why on earth are suddenly banging on about fire emblem? nobody mention it until now. and why are you telling me next in line isn't a tangible thing when the entire point of my last post was that smash can put in characters whenever they want? you're agreeing with me on that point and you're still acting like it's a counter argument. i don't have the energy to follow this "logic" of yours

It really is strange just how many people act like Palutena wasn't one of the most popular requests for Smash 4 and was widely praised.

Is it that she aged poorly as an addiction? Do people just not know about her original games? Are people too young to see her in her prime?

Why the massive flip flop?

in my experience the smash fandom seem to flip flop at the drop of a hat. i can think of a few characters who's hate quickly turned to love and vice versa and then for everyone to act that's how they always felt. i can think of a few examples outside of smash as well so perhaps it's just human nature to lie about the past

 

[Diddy Kong]

Now I kinda want to see a graph with how requested every character was before they were added. I had no idea palutena had so many shooters out here tbh.

Quick summary:

Melee: Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Marth where the most highly requested characters. Marth not specifically but as the face of Fire Emblem it's logical. Ganondorf and Zelda where up there too.

Brawl: Sonic was by far the most requested ever here. Followed by the likes of Wario, Diddy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pit and even Ike. Others who had decent popularity are easily Lucario, Lucas, Wolf and Toon Link. Brawl had a lot of fan favorites added.

Smash 4: Greninja, Robin, Lucina, Little Mac, Mega Man, Palutena, Pac Man, Villager, Mewtwo, Roy. These where notable ones. Most popular overall where definitely Mega Man and Mewtwo. Duck Hunt had it's fans too even.

Source: I was around bro.

 

[Borskaboska]

Palutena was a top five character on Shorts' old poll. Like the only characters above here were Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool, Mega Man and Little Mac.

Huh, i never knew that. Looking through the old poll results now, it's really interesting to see the discussion people were having back then. I remember the time when Samurai Goroh and Wonder Red were much more common requests.
I wonder how much polls like these affected Sakurai's decision making, or if he even saw them at all.

 

[Borskaboska]

Quick summary:

Melee: Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Marth where the most highly requested characters. Marth not specifically but as the face of Fire Emblem it's logical. Ganondorf and Zelda where up there too.

Brawl: Sonic was by far the most requested ever here. Followed by the likes of Wario, Diddy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pit and even Ike. Others who had decent popularity are easily Lucario, Lucas, Wolf and Toon Link. Brawl had a lot of fan favorites added.

Smash 4: Greninja, Robin, Lucina, Little Mac, Mega Man, Palutena, Pac Man, Villager, Mewtwo, Roy. These where notable ones. Most popular overall where definitely Mega Man and Mewtwo. Duck Hunt had it's fans too even.

Source: I was around bro.

Ok thank you for responding, and i dont want to doubt you but were people really requesting Lucas for brawl? By the time he was chosen to be included I don't thing his game was even released yet, I always assumed he was a relative unknown before brawl released.
People were requesting Pit before brawl back when he was only a middling NES game? Is that just because of his trophy inclusion in melee?
Also, my memory of the time is that Chrom was MUCH more requested than Robin. Robin was the first avatar character they added, I remember people being pretty shocked when they added him over chrom.

 

[Pupp135]

Is Palutena in any real danger?

I'm confident Pit is safe and Dark Pit is a different set of circumstances.

Even though she was a huge SSBFor request, I typically put her as a lower priority veteran given her franchise’s dormancy at this point, but that probably isn’t a completely fair assessment of her chances given her popularity as a character and Kid Icarus’s importance to SSB. Also, she was the character who highlighted custom moves, and her Ultimate moveset implemented some of those custom moves. I guess a fairer assessment of her chances would be someone that they’d want to keep once the primary foundation is added.

See, if I wanted 8-Player Smash chaos though, I'd pick a smaller stage like Shadow Moses because it's hilarious seeing everyone careening off the walls like they're pinballs.

Palutena's Temple, Great Cave Offensive, and to a lesser extent Temple from Melee just kinda lend themselves to everyone splitting off and doing whatever because they're so huge, which zooms the camera out and makes everyone look like ants on the screen. They're not really good at the chaos they were supposed to embody, they're just kinda big for the sake of big.

I agree with you that I don’t like to play on large stages often, but they can be fun to play on in 8-Player Smash if I something more breathable or if I want to play on something different.

Actually, regarding D.K., what are the chances of them cutting Diddy instead of King K. Rool (in the interest of keeping the series' villain in instead of a secondary protagonist) in the event a character from that series is taken out?

While King K. Rool was a major request in Ultimate, I cannot imagine Diddy Kong being cut over him given that Diddy Kong is a character that who’s well liked in Mario spinoffs and appears in more games compared to King K. Rool, and Diddy appeared last year’s movie.

On the note of characters and their chances for next game, how does everyone feel about Zero Suit Samus and Aegis?

 

[NintenRob]

Smash 4: Greninja, Robin, Lucina, Little Mac, Mega Man, Palutena, Pac Man, Villager, Mewtwo, Roy. These where notable ones. Most popular overall where definitely Mega Man and Mewtwo. Duck Hunt had it's fans too even.

I'm gonna dispute you on that Greninja one. Despite being one of my most wanted characters at the time. Pokémon discussion was largely dominated by Mewtwo and there were many in my experience who expected Mewtwo to be the only addition. When discussion came round to X and Y newcomer. I believe it was largely either Sylveon or 'Kalos Trainer' (which admittedly usually includes Greninja)

I rarely saw talk of Greninja solo despite popularity

 

[Opossum]

I'm gonna dispute you on that Greninja one. Despite being one of my most wanted characters at the time. Pokémon discussion was largely dominated by Mewtwo and there were many in my experience who expected Mewtwo to be the only addition. When discussion came round to X and Y newcomer. I believe it was largely either Sylveon or 'Kalos Trainer' (which admittedly usually includes Greninja)

I rarely saw talk of Greninja solo despite popularity

Yeah this is the big thing. Any starter discussion was centered around another Trainer happening due to both precedent with Brawl, and "fairness" in regards to the starter trio.

Solo Greninja was basically never entertained, never mind discussed in earnest.

 

[Perkilator]

Speaking of Pokémon, here's a hot take from me:

To me, as far as playable fighters goes, the perfect amount of Gen 1 representation for Pokémon in Smash would be:

• Pikachu & Meowth (64)
• Mewtwo (Melee)
• Charizard (Brawl)

 

[fogbadge]

Why do so many want to see the back of squirtle and ivysaur ?

 

[BritishGuy54]

On the note of characters and their chances for next game, how does everyone feel about Zero Suit Samus and Aegis?

- I think she will likely be on the fence. It may be too close to call in my eyes. Either she’s in base game or not at all, I don’t imagine she’ll come back as DLC.

- The most popular characters in the Xenoblade series. I don’t see them going anywhere. If anything, I think Aegis and will stay for the next few games, while the eventual XC3 rep would get into Smash 6, but immediately get the axe in Smash 7.

 

[fogbadge]

- The most popular characters in the Xenoblade series. I don’t see them going anywhere.

can you cite your source?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ok thank you for responding, and i dont want to doubt you but were people really requesting Lucas for brawl? By the time he was chosen to be included I don't thing his game was even released yet, I always assumed he was a relative unknown before brawl released.
People were requesting Pit before brawl back when he was only a middling NES game? Is that just because of his trophy inclusion in melee?
Also, my memory of the time is that Chrom was MUCH more requested than Robin. Robin was the first avatar character they added, I remember people being pretty shocked when they added him over chrom.

Mother 3 wasn't released worldwide but don't underestimate the popularity of the Mother franchise, and their dedication. Mother 3 has been translated by fans, and thus we played the game in English. All in the period before Brawls development. Lucas was quite requested therefore.

Pit was requested because Kid Icarus was a beloved NES game, doesn't go deeper than that. Also because a token retro newcomer was a thing still back then, Pit was easily the most requested choice.

Chrom indeed was much more requested than Robin, but most of all, he was expected. But nobody really thought he'd be all too original compared to Marth and Ike, whom where the only Fire Emblem characters in Brawl after all. Robin was included because of this reason. His reveal trailer says enough. But there are official Sakurai statements to back this up.

 

[robot067]

Ultimate's DLC was unique in that the character selection was done solely by Nintendo rather than Sakurai and the smash team. Considering how wildly successful that approach was, is it possible Nintendo will be more involved with the planning of the next game's base roster? If so, what would their priorities be? I could see them potentially being more willing to cut legacy first party characters in favor of the DLC third parties. Or maybe they would want Sakurai to cut as few characters as possible for the purpose of making a bigger game than Ultimate. Regardless, a lot of our assumptions about the roster is decided based on past game' precedents may not apply if Nintendo is more hands-on this time.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Ultimate's DLC was unique in that the character selection was done solely by Nintendo rather than Sakurai and the smash team. Considering how wildly successful that approach was, is it possible Nintendo will be more involved with the planning of the next game's base roster?

I hope not. A fully Nintendo decided roster would be a nightmare to me. I doubt it though, I'm sure even corporate Nintendo knows Sakurai's approach to character selection is a big reason fans love Smash so much. I imagine Smash 6'll be more of the same, Sakurai controls the base roster and Nintendo controls the DLC.

 

[Will]

If Nintendo were calling all the shots now in characters only, that would be… probably okay.

Could you honestly tell me this was a poor selection? Only 1/3 of these are from Nintendo’s roster.

 

[Gorgonzales]

If Nintendo were calling all the shots now in characters only, that would be… probably okay.

View attachment 393385

Could you honestly tell me this was a poor selection? Only 1/3 of these are from Nintendo’s roster.

They aren't perfect. A third of these are still shill picks, which is better than usual... but I'd rather go without shill picks entirely.

Nintendo can make good decisions for 3rd parties like Banjo, Joker, Steve, and Terry, but ironically they fumble the ball for their 1st party picks because they always seem to go for the newest faces that haven't yet proven their worth, instead of longer-requested faces like Dixie Kong or BWD.

I mean, I get why they do it, but it's still annoying to know that older 1st parties don't really stand a chance for DLC.

 

[Will]

They aren't perfect. A third of these are still shill picks, which is better than usual... but I'd rather go without shill picks entirely.

Nintendo can make good decisions for 3rd parties like Banjo, Joker, Steve, and Terry, but ironically they fumble the ball for their 1st party picks because they always seem to go for the newest faces that haven't yet proven their worth, instead of longer-requested faces like Dixie Kong or BWD.

I mean, I get why they do it, but it's still annoying to know that older 1st parties don't really stand a chance for DLC.

That’s been true since Smash 4 though. In 4, it was all veterans and Corrin for the first party characters. Sakurai was the mastermind there.

I’m not sure if that exclusively applies to Nintendo, or just how they see first party characters as DLC in general.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Duck Hunt had it's fans too even.

I think this was back when I was lurking, but I do remember there being one guy who was convinced that Duck Hunt was going to be added at the time. Was kind of fun seeing them validated.

Why do so many want to see the back of squirtle and ivysaur ?

Well I'm not all that concerned with their rear ends, but I think keeping Pokémon Trainer around is important, and Squirtle and Ivysaur are necessary for that to happen.

 

[robot067]

I doubt it though, I'm sure they know Sakurai's approach to character selection is a big reason fans love Smash so much.

That is definitely true. However I could see Nintendo wanting more input in order to decide who will return as DLC later. For example under normal circumstances Ike seems very safe, however Nintendo might tell Sakurai to save him for DLC since he would be more profitable than someone like Corrin or Piranha Plant.

To clarify this is absolutely not I want to happen, but if we're getting cuts then that means veterans for DLC, and if Nintendo is picking DLC I could easily see this outcome. Perhaps they'll have an arrangement where Sakurai picks DLC veterans and Nintendo picks the newcomers, who knows.

I might be off the mark speculating about DLC before the game is even out. I still think with how successful Ultimate's was the game might be planned more with DLC in mind than past titles.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That’s been true since Smash 4 though. In 4, it was all veterans and Corrin for the first party characters. Sakurai was the mastermind there.

I’m not sure if that exclusively applies to Nintendo, or just how they see first party characters as DLC in general.

EDIT: The following statement is mostly incorrect.

Actually, Corrin was picked by Nintendo. I don't remember where to find it, but when discussing Corrin he said the idea was brought to him and he was kind of worried about the pick because due to diversity reasons.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

On the note of characters and their chances for next game, how does everyone feel about Zero Suit Samus and Aegis?

Both are very unlikely to be cut. They're well-made characters and very popular to use. Also notable ones in different ways.

For the latter, unless we come into a situation where Transformations have to be split up again, and unlike others, they really do need to be a Team. Albeit, it's not like we'd have seen Ivysaur and Squirtle separate at any point. They just don't have the same pull as Charizard for it. They also were not the first choices for PT's options, so that doesn't help either. Charizard was the only default. At the very least, they're cool unique Pokemon that work awesomely as a team(and unlike Brawl, don't have a really awful gimmick).

For the former, she was the only feasible choice at the time, and has become a popular character for being rather fun to use and doing her own thing as a contrast to Samus' more heavy style. No good reason to cut her on its own either. She hasn't really affected regular Samus at all(and in fact, ZSS is far worse in the Ultimate Tier List, at 30th. Regular Samus is at freaking 15th.

-------------

That said, DLC often being newer 1st party characters make sense. They have games coming out and are easier to pay extra for. People know who they are more consistently thanks to advertising, and they want to sell those games too. Characters from far older games or have few appearances lately only appeals to a much smaller portion of people. Which... isn't the best idea for DLC and all. You clearly want something that sticks out to sell. 3rd parties are a bit different as many can be requested via the Smash Poll, but not all will be the best responses either. Some are lesser known(like Terry), and others are easy sellers due to their big franchise factor(Steve/Alex). Of course, things like deals(I.E. Sephiroth) can make sense too. They're more over the place than 1st parties are. But this also makes sense since getting a 3rd party means licensing and cutting deals that work well for all parties involved. 1st parties aren't key to that either. So if it's a 3rd party that won't have any kind of game being released or rereleased lately, they're going to be a bit of a harder sell. Smash, no matter how one goes about it, does advertise things by default. Hell, B&K wouldn't re-release for a Nintendo system for a loooooooong time with the NSO. You were told to play it on a Microsoft Console for a reason at the time.

 

[Will]

Actually, Corrin was picked by Nintendo. I don't remember where to find it, but when discussing Corrin he said the idea was brought to him and he was kind of worried about the pick because due to diversity reasons.

I thought the story was just his dev team really liking Corrins design. Whoopsie if im wrong tho

 

[Borskaboska]

Speaking of Pokémon, here's a hot take from me:

I think meowth would've been a much better pick than Jigglypuff if they added him in melee or brawl or even 4, but nowadays I'm not sure how relevant he is. If sakurai is willing to add advent children content, I'm kinda surprised hes never included something related to Team Rocket.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I thought the story was just his dev team really liking Corrins design. Whoopsie if im wrong tho

Fact checking myself, it appears you are correct. Sakurai was looking for a character from a new game and Fire Emblem: Fates was in the perfect spot for that purpose. He did think that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but decided he'd be able to make it work.

After internal analysis, we decided that if we’re going to make DLC, we would choose a character from a soon-to-be-released new game. After consulting many times with Nintendo and looking at the upcoming release schedule, Fire Emblem Fates was in just the right spot. It’s already been released in Japan, but is yet to be released overseas, making it a prime candidate in terms of timing. I personally felt that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but after talking it over with the development staff and discussing logistics, I felt certain that I could make them a fun character.

 

[Ivander]

I thought the story was just his dev team really liking Corrins design. Whoopsie if im wrong tho

I could've swore that it was something Sourcegaming mentioned, whether on their site or on twitter, as I remember seeing it. Something about how they could make Corrin fun. And SMAASH! Puppy 's fact check somewhat lines up with it with talking it over with the development staff and whatnot.

 

[Perkilator]

IDK how relevant this is to this thread, but…

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Opossum]

They aren't perfect. A third of these are still shill picks, which is better than usual... but I'd rather go without shill picks entirely.

Nintendo can make good decisions for 3rd parties like Banjo, Joker, Steve, and Terry, but ironically they fumble the ball for their 1st party picks because they always seem to go for the newest faces that haven't yet proven their worth, instead of longer-requested faces like Dixie Kong or BWD.

I mean, I get why they do it, but it's still annoying to know that older 1st parties don't really stand a chance for DLC.

If a character getting in a full three years after their game releases still qualifies as a shill pick then I have some very bad news about Pikachu and Jigglypuff in 64, as well as Sheik, Young Link, and Ganondorf in Melee.

 

[Gorgonzales]

If a character getting in a full three years after their game releases still qualifies as a shill pick then I have some very bad news about Pikachu and Jigglypuff in 64, as well as Sheik, Young Link, and Ganondorf in Melee.

The difference is that a substantial number of people actually care about Pokemon and Zelda. I'm a fan of ARMS myself, but the addition of Min Min felt more like a "just let it go bruh" moment to me than anything.

 

[Louie G.]

why on earth are suddenly banging on about fire emblem? nobody mention it until now. and why are you telling me next in line isn't a tangible thing when the entire point of my last post was that smash can put in characters whenever they want?

I brought it up because I was going down the list on every series I could think of that you might be talking about. Historically Metroid, DK, Fire Emblem are series that were brought up when discussing Sakurai bias. It’s still unclear to me which characters you were referring to when you were saying “look at the roster” and alluded to who’s getting skipped over etc.

I don’t think I was agreeing with you because the way you framed it, there are objectively characters that should have been next in line that you are frustrated were not. If not Bandana Waddle Dee, who you said you don’t care hasn’t been added yet, I know you want Toad as well, but I was hoping you’d give me more examples of when Sakurai’s bias walled off all these characters who should have been next.

The difference is that a substantial number of people actually care about Pokemon and Zelda. I'm a fan of ARMS myself, but the addition of Min Min felt more like a "just let it go bruh" moment to me than anything.

I still believe Min Min was added out of genuine belief that people still wanted an ARMS character. ARMS and Xeno 2 were always brought up in the same conversation of games that really should have and would have been represented in the base roster had the timing lined up. Their addition collectively always struck me most like “sorry we missed ya” - I knew we were getting someone from Xeno 2 the moment ARMS was locked.

Also for what it’s worth, I think Pyra and Mythra had proven themselves in spades by that point. It was pretty clear their popularity wasn’t going anywhere, and by the time they were added it had been several years since their game released. Not a shill pick.

 

[fogbadge]

I brought it up because I was going down the list on every series I could think of that you might be talking about. Historically Metroid, DK, Fire Emblem are series that were brought up when discussing Sakurai bias. It’s still unclear to me which characters you were referring to when you were saying “look at the roster” and alluded to who’s getting skipped over etc.

I don’t think I was agreeing with you because the way you framed it, there are objectively characters that should have been next in line that you are frustrated were not. If not Bandana Waddle Dee, who you said you don’t care hasn’t been added yet, I know you want Toad as well, but I was hoping you’d give me more examples of when Sakurai’s bias walled off all these characters who should have been next.



I still believe Min Min was added out of genuine belief that people still wanted an ARMS character. ARMS and Xeno 2 were always brought up in the same conversation of games that really should have and would have been represented in the base roster had the timing lined up. Their addition collectively always struck me most like “sorry we missed ya” - I knew we were getting someone from Xeno 2 the moment ARMS was locked.

Also for what it’s worth, I think Pyra and Mythra had proven themselves in spades by that point. It was pretty clear their popularity wasn’t going anywhere, and by the time they were added it had been several years since their game released. Not a shill pick.

the whole point was that your assertion that bandana only makes sense now is meaningless cause including characters when they make sense is not how smash does things. And I still don’t get why you’re continuing to argue after you’ve already acknowledged that he is bias. Which is what this whole thing was about in the first place

 

[Louie G.]

the whole point was that your assertion that bandana only makes sense now is meaningless cause including characters when they make sense is not how smash does things. And I still don’t get why you’re continuing to argue after you’ve already acknowledged that he is bias. Which is what this whole thing was about in the first place

I’m not even arguing at this point, I said in my post that I had a genuine question for you about which characters you were talking about and I was earnestly going down the list trying to figure it out.

And how does Smash not add characters when they make sense? Obviously with limited roster space they can’t add EVERYONE at the ideal moment, but most of the series rosters are influenced directly by the last few years of releases. Little Mac or Palutena for example made more sense for Smash 4 than ever because their popularity reached a peak after brand new games, and that’s when they were added. Pokemon are regularly only added in the explicit window where they make sense. You get the point, I’m just scratching my head a bit.

Look at the other characters who got in before or after their time. How many characters who were next in line got passed over?

This was the basis of my last few posts. Which characters does this refer to?

Your pessimism about BWD rests on the premise that Sakurai will never change his mind under the right circumstances after we just got Ridley and K. Rool last game, and people whined about him hating those two series and characters for years and years. Bias or otherwise these things are flexible. The right timing and active support can make all the difference - that was my point.

 

[Wonder Smash]

IDK how relevant this is to this thread, but…

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Well, it's definitely relevant to Smash since she voiced Jigglypuff.

Really sad news. She was such a good voice actress and very talented. I use to Pokemon a lot during the 4kids era, so I had many memories of the characters she voiced. And she was still young too.

RIP.

 

[osby]

They aren't perfect. A third of these are still shill picks, which is better than usual... but I'd rather go without shill picks entirely.

Nintendo can make good decisions for 3rd parties like Banjo, Joker, Steve, and Terry, but ironically they fumble the ball for their 1st party picks because they always seem to go for the newest faces that haven't yet proven their worth, instead of longer-requested faces like Dixie Kong or BWD.

I mean, I get why they do it, but it's still annoying to know that older 1st parties don't really stand a chance for DLC.

I disagree with you on this one. Switch is an extremely successful console and it only makes sense to give it a few characters. Ultimate base game was already more than generous to older Nintendo characters with more than half of the newcomers making their debut before Brawl.

Byleth, Min Min, Pyra and Mythra are all popular figures in their fanbases. Just because they aren't 30 year old characters doesn't mean that they are bad additions.

 

[Gengar84]

I might be in the minority here but if I were making the game, I’d probably put the lowest priority on alternate versions of the same character with completely original movesets. The main example here is Zero Suit Samus but if I’m being objective, Sheik also qualifies despite how much I like her. If I was just going off my own personal bias, I’d definitely keep Sheik. I think it’s more exciting to see completely new characters rather than multiple movesets for the same ones. That’s one reason I don’t really have a lot of interest in someone like Paper Mario. Alternate versions of characters like Toon Link make more sense since they don’t take as many development resources. I think Sheik and ZSS are great characters in Smash and I don’t want to cut anyone but putting it logically, it makes sense that they wouldn’t be a priority.

 

[ninjahmos]

So…what about Snake?

I mean, the Metal Gear series just recently regained popularity, right? So what do you think his chances are?