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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Diddy Kong

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Call it a hot take, but I almost wish Final Smashes would effectively be split with the (optional) meter for the cutscene screen nuke version and the traditional method for more varied FS types. Everyone gets the variation of the former with the latter being more unique to them.
I want Final Smashes to be incorporated into movesets via a Smash Meter or something like that. The stuff traditional fighters do. Why does the Final Smash need to be an item?

And it that case I'd nerf them a little bit in terms of KO power, but keep some high damaging. Between 50% - 75% is reasonable.

This would probably make the game much more offensive in a way.
 

Oracle Link

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the phantom must drive you nuts



yeah I get that. link's really does like a downgrade. and yet the other two links still have it. and shiek for some reason
Its also so BOTW Centric! I think replacing it with the lightbow makes it work better for the classic link costumes!
(then again that might conflict with zelda)
 

Shinuto

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About what characters will the community support, i really hope that Goemon gains more support than he had for the last 2 Smash games. Say whatever you want, but i think Goemon is one of the best candidates for Smash. His wacky personality and charm and his unusual fighting style about hitting people with a pipe and throwing them coins would make him a very fun fighter. Also, many great things have happened lately to the franchise: the majority of the Japan-only games are now translated thanks to the hard work of the fans, Goemon is in a Smash mod which can help his popularity, and Mystical Ninja 64 is starting to have more of a cult following. And, of course, his Mii costume, which definitely means that he's in the Sakurai and Smash Team's radar. In fact, in the video where Sakurai says that 1986 is the best year of gaming, he considers Goemon to be ONE of the reasons why he thinks 1986 was the best gaming year. Sakurai definitely has RESPECT for the franchise. So i really hope that Goemon has a chance for any next Smash game.
Don't try to use Smash Remix as any kind of boost, don't give me any false hope for Marina.
 

Gengar84

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I actually really liked the Legend of the Mystical Ninja game on the SNES but I haven’t played one since then. Goemon isn’t really on my list of characters I’m actively hoping for but he’s still be a fun addition and I’d welcome him. My number one most wanted Konami character is Bill Rizer from Contra (with a Lance Bean alt). The fact that he’s now voiced by one of my favorite voice actors in Steve Blum in Operation Galuga is a nice bonus.
 
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DarthEnderX

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I want Final Smashes to be incorporated into movesets via a Smash Meter or something like that. The stuff traditional fighters do. Why does the Final Smash need to be an item?
It...it doesn't. There's already an option to use FSs with a FS Meter.

My number one most wanted Konami character is Bill Rizer from Contra (with a Lance Bean alt).
Saaaame.
 
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BuckleyTim

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music wise, Everyone correct says that Wario Land needs more love but I feel like WarioWare hasn't gotten the best dealt hand either. Seriously, how do we not have Wario de Mambo or Wario Dance Company yet? They focused too hard on the vocal themes and that's not bad per se, but given how Wario got uh... nothing in the music department in Ultimate it really makes the flaws of the music rep just stick out more.

I like Ashley but part of the reason I'd rather have a different WarioWare rep if we ever got one is because I know they'd blow most of the music allotment on giving us a third remix of her theme.
 

Will

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It's a very fitting move and I don't like the new Final Smash either. Very underwhelming.
It’s not exactly new either, just reskinned and taken from Zelda’s previous final smash. Hopefully the next game will give us something more satisfying to land. I haven’t played TOTK so I don’t know what else they can do.
 

Wonder Smash

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I actually really liked the Legend of the Mystical Ninja game on the SNES but I haven’t played one since then. Goemon isn’t really on my list of characters I’m actively hoping for but he’s still be a fun addition and I’d welcome him. My number one most wanted Konami character is Bill Rizer from Contra (with a Lance Bean alt). The fact that he’s now voiced by one of my favorite voice actors in Steve Blum in Operation Galuga is a nice bonus.
Same here!
 

Louie G.

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music wise, Everyone correct says that Wario Land needs more love but I feel like WarioWare hasn't gotten the best dealt hand either. Seriously, how do we not have Wario de Mambo or Wario Dance Company yet? They focused too hard on the vocal themes and that's not bad per se, but given how Wario got uh... nothing in the music department in Ultimate it really makes the flaws of the music rep just stick out more.
Body Rock is probably my most wanted Smash arrangement, period. It baffles me that we haven't gotten that one acknowledged.

WarioWare treatment in Ultimate is kind of criminal. No new music despite the series still being quite active, and literally lost an Assist Trophy with Kat and Ana being removed. Spirits aside, with no forward momentum otherwise it's one of only a couple series that actively lost content between Smash 4 and Ultimate. Pretty sad stuff. That said, WarioWare has had a substantial presence on the Switch. So maybe we'll be able to see at least something new next time around. I'm not particularly counting on a new character or anything, but a new stage and music would be appreciated.

Mind you, I disagree with the part about the vocal themes being overrepresented. I don't know if we needed two arrangements of Ashley's theme, but the batch of songs we got in Brawl is pretty much perfect. The quirky vocal themes make WW's representation stand out as being eclectic and silly as it should be. Wouldn't change that at all, and am actively hoping for more vocal themes next time like Body Rock and Penny's theme. And Wario de Mambo.
 
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Perkilator

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It’s not exactly new either, just reskinned and taken from Zelda’s previous final smash. Hopefully the next game will give us something more satisfying to land. I haven’t played TOTK so I don’t know what else they can do.
Well, both BotW and TotK have the Flurry Rush, which I’m pretty sure you can safely implement as a reskinned Triforce Slash.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Yeah Goemon looks really fun in that Smash 64 mod. Never played a single game of his, but that mod made me interested in the series and also in the character getting in an official Smash game at one point. He's a cartoony ninja that fights with weird tools, fits Smash's original vision to a T.
My #1 Konami priority is of course still Bomberman, though. Even though he's actually Hudson.

Speaking of Goemon games... I suppose there's not many ways to play them via official releases, eh? :/
 
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Slime Scholar

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Final Smashes are designed around the 4-player free-for-all experience. That’s why they’re items- they’re made to be as disruptive as possible, from the very moment the Smash Ball appears and the match turns into a scramble to break it. It’s an equalizer mechanic that can take you from last place to first— they are, by nature, not very well balanced.

That’s probably why I don’t find them very fun in 1v1. The second one player has it, it becomes an awkward dance where the other has to run away and bait it out, hoping they can dodge in time, which may be impossible depending on how much reach it has (Samus’ hyper beam comes to mind). This is where the comparison to other fighting games falls apart: you can actually block supers in just about every other fighting game I can think of, which is why nobody uses them outside of combos or specific punishes (especially if they’re grapplers). And that wouldn’t really work for Smash where combos aren’t necessary and the entire point of the FS is to make you feel powerful.

I just don’t see a way to incorporate them into move sets without neutering them and missing their appeal.
 

Will

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Well, both BotW and TotK have the Flurry Rush, which I’m pretty sure you can safely implement as a reskinned Triforce Slash.
Sounds like all he has to do is use Stasis instead of summoning the Triforce out of nowhere. It sounds alright.
 

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The Wario series is in such a weird spot that, I have to ask.

If Wario Ware didn't star Wario, would it have gotten a character?
 

Diddy Kong

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It’s not exactly new either, just reskinned and taken from Zelda’s previous final smash. Hopefully the next game will give us something more satisfying to land. I haven’t played TOTK so I don’t know what else they can do.
Yeah it won't be the same one. Dunno about Triforce Slash either honestly. I'd like it back for sure , it's just that BotW and TotK also don't really have the Triforce much in their story, at all.

Maybe something silly like an extreme Flurry Rush or something like that. Imagine Flurry Rush x 10. Kinda over the top like DK's Final Smash.
 

Noipoi

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The Wario series is in such a weird spot that, I have to ask.

If Wario Ware didn't star Wario, would it have gotten a character?
If Wario Ware was it's own franchise...

First of all Wario would've gotten in but as a Mario character.

And second of all if this hypothetical WW franchise was still a success, and had it's own mascot (Let's say it's Jimmy T) then he might've gotten in later on. Or maybe he'd be sitting in the corner with the Chorus Kids.
 

Louie G.

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The Wario series is in such a weird spot that, I have to ask.

If Wario Ware didn't star Wario, would it have gotten a character?
It would probably go the way of Rhythm Heaven. There's a chance we could see a character if there was a successful new release timed neatly alongside the project plan, but otherwise it's going to be a steeper hill for these kind of series to climb because for one, they don't really have a "main character" and two, their gameplay is unconventional and doesn't neatly lend itself to a concise moveset design. This makes it at least a bit less pressing than series with more concrete protagonists, like Xenoblade and Splatoon. Or might get snubbed in favor of other wacky, unorthodox picks from BIG series like Animal Crossing and Wii Fit.

That isnt to say it couldn't happen. Perhaps if Ashley continued to be this popular she would have a chance, although I suspect she would still be sitting in an AT role right now. But I do think Rhythm Heaven is a good point of reference, and without the Wario factor the two would almost certainly be in the same compartment. Maybe they would be able to land the WarioWare Inc stage in Brawl and leave it at that.

I think the bottom line is that Wario would have gotten in anyway, so he's kinda just representing WW by proxy. Hard to say if they would have felt it warranted representation otherwise, but coming off the GBA era which has a number of other notable snubs, such as Golden Sun or Advance Wars, what would WW have had going for it that these series didn't? But at least it's still receiving new games.
 
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Ivander

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Honestly? Doubtful.

The franchise likely would have fizzled out early on without the Wario branding.
It's not just the Wario branding. But because like....it's hard to see what WarioWare would be like without Wario, mostly because Wario is practically the main cause of why the games happen in the first place. Most WarioWare games start because of Wario wanting to get rich quick, because he finds something that thinks will be big in the market or is the cause of something that happened. In most occasions, he suckers the others into helping him, though in Move It!, they pressure him into taking them on the vacation he won.
Probably the only game where Wario doesn't really play any big part in is WarioWare Smooth Moves where it just explores each character doing their own thing. But without Wario, the other games practically wouldn't exist without his greedy shenanigans and you wouldn't have a character who serves as an antithesis to the other characters who are more laid back(in one way or another) compared to him.
And considering how some people don't like Wario's WarioWare incarnation for his focus on gross humor compared to his focus on being a greedy treasure hunter who pummels foes with his brute strength as often portrayed in the WarioLand games, I'm pretty sure any character hypothetically made to be in his place would hardly have any popularity and they'd be the Demitri(probably even lower compared to Demitri) to Ashley and Mona's Morrigan and Felicia.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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It's not just the Wario branding. But because like....it's hard to see what WarioWare would be like without Wario, mostly because Wario is practically the main cause of why the games happen in the first place. Most WarioWare games start because of Wario wanting to get rich quick, because he finds something that thinks will be big in the market or is the cause of something that happened. In most occasions, he suckers the others into helping him, though in Move It!, they pressure him into taking them on the vacation he won.
Probably the only game where Wario doesn't really play any big part in is WarioWare Smooth Moves where it just explores each character doing their own thing. But without Wario, the other games practically wouldn't exist without his greedy shenanigans and you wouldn't have a character who serves as an antithesis to the other characters who are more laid back(in one way or another) compared to him.
And considering how some people don't like Wario's WarioWare incarnation for his focus on gross humor compared to his focus on being a greedy treasure hunter who pummels foes with his brute strength as often portrayed in the WarioLand games, I'm pretty sure any character hypothetically made to be in his place would hardly have any popularity and they'd be the Demitri(probably even lower compared to Demitri) to Ashley and Mona's Morrigan and Felicia.

I still think a "WarioWare: Where Wario?" would be a fun premise to explore.

Like he's not there and it feels off and you need to see why he's missing. Only for it to be like he got his ass stuck on the toilet seat for the entire game.
 

Gengar84

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BotW Link's FS should be him Stasis launching enemies.
I like the idea of Stasis as a grab. It would definitely be a lot more interesting than the basic one he has now. Magnesis could also work. If they’re going to remove his tether grab, at least give us something cool to make up for it.
 
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HyperSomari64

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Quoting an idea from SnakeFighter64 SnakeFighter64 in The Social Thread.
New idea for a hypothetical smash game! It’s one character per company including Nintendo. And the people building this hypothetical roster need to vote on and decide which one. How big of a roster can we get!

Is this a good idea? Should I make this one of those “build a roster” game threads?
"One character per company" text
 

Louie G.

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Building on this. No, GameFreak and APE Inc and Intelligent Systems and HAL Labs don't count as separate companies for the sake of this prompt.
What about Microsoft after the recent buyouts? I feel like for a conglomerate like that, the identities of studios like Activision / Blizzard, Bethesda, Mojang and whatnot are too different to cast under the same umbrella. Compared to like, Nintendo with their ownership of HAL or Pokemon characters from the beginning.
 

SnakeFighter64

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What about Microsoft after the recent buyouts? I feel like for a conglomerate like that, the identities of studios like Activision / Blizzard, Bethesda, Mojang and whatnot are too different to cast under the same umbrella. Compared to like, Nintendo with their ownership of HAL or Pokemon characters from the beginning.
i'm not sure about that one too be honest. We'd have to see of this became it's own "build a roster" thread
 

Pupp135

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Re:
Would you rather the Zelda cast be updated to new games like TotK when applicable, or do you prefer Ultimate's approach where different characters take different designs from different games?

:ultlink::ultsheik::ultzelda::ultganondorf::ultyounglink::ulttoonlink:
I think that I’d prefer how Ultimate approached the fighters where they represent multiple reincarnations. Here are my choices:
:ultlink:: The most recent iteration (in this case TotK) works well for him imo.
:ultyounglink:: I’ll pick OoT here as his Majora’s Mask alternate forms would not appear if he returns.
:ulttoonlink:: I’ll keep Wind Waker here.
:ultzelda:: OoT or TP would be my choice because of the reserved designs for these Zeldas, and I’ll go with TP as we already have OoT for Young Link and Sheik.
:ultsheik:: I’ll pick OoT here as it’s her canonical look, but I like here TP design, and there is the Sheikah outfit in BotW.
:ultganondorf:: I’m fine with any design for Ganondorf.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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The Wario series is in such a weird spot that, I have to ask.

If Wario Ware didn't star Wario, would it have gotten a character?
Rhtythm Heaven was apparently going to get one, so maybe? Although Wario in Smash still uses a lot of his Wario Land characterization. Maybe not so much in terms of direct references, but the whole idea of him being a zany brute that's surprisingly agile comes from Wario Land/Wario World. The Wario Ware-inspired moves ingrain themselves on that basis as the extra "lol random" cherry on top, but remove Wario Land from the equation and the abilities of the hypothetical Ware main character become a lot more abstract.
It probably comes down to how much Smash-friendly this character's body shape and abilities would have been.

I think it's interesting to ask the opposite question for Paper Mario. Would it have gotten a fighter in Smash if the setting and characters were fully original?
I think it would have been in since Brawl. There's not too many Smash-friendly Nintendo IPs that debuted on the N64/GC, especially once you remove Animal Crossing (not seen as viable at the time) and Rare's games from the equation. The Paper not-Mario main character would have been a good companion to Olimar.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Rhtythm Heaven was apparently going to get one, so maybe? Although Wario in Smash still uses a lot of his Wario Land characterization. Maybe not so much in terms of direct references, but the whole idea of him being a zany brute that's surprisingly agile comes from Wario Land/Wario World. The Wario Ware-inspired moves ingrain themselves on that basis as the extra "lol random" cherry on top, but remove Wario Land from the equation and the abilities of the hypothetical Ware main character become a lot more abstract.
It probably comes down to how much Smash-friendly this character's body shape and abilities would have been.

I think it's interesting to ask the opposite question for Paper Mario. Would it have gotten a fighter in Smash if the setting and characters were fully original?
I think it would have been in since Brawl. There's not too many Smash-friendly Nintendo IPs that debuted on the N64/GC, especially once you remove Animal Crossing (not seen as viable at the time) and Rare's games from the equation. The Paper not-Mario main character would have been a good companion to Olimar.
I don't think Paper (Mario) would have been included in Brawl as Brawl had some pretty stiff competition. Smash 4 though? Definitely. It's focus was expanding on new franchises and it would have had a perfect time to enter with a brand new game at the time of the design document.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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I don't think Paper (Mario) would have been included in Brawl as Brawl had some pretty stiff competition. Smash 4 though? Definitely. It's focus was expanding on new franchises and it would have had a perfect time to enter with a brand new game at the time of the design document.
That honestly makes me imagine how angry people would've been with that, even fans of the series, assuming this original Paper RPG IP had the same trajectory as Paper Mario so the main character gets added via the worst game in the series.

Then again, if it doesn't have Mario theming to fall back on, I wonder if it'd even be possible to have the same trajectory...
 

Garteam

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I think it would have been in since Brawl. There's not too many Smash-friendly Nintendo IPs that debuted on the N64/GC, especially once you remove Animal Crossing (not seen as viable at the time) and Rare's games from the equation. The Paper not-Mario main character would have been a good companion to Olimar.
Paper Mario not being a Mario game actually would have hurt Paper Mario's chances for Brawl, IMO. Brawl was all about filling out the supporting casts of series already in the game. Olimar was the exception because Pikmin was a new, major Miyamoto IP. You could also note that Wario was in his own series, but Wario is also a Mario character for all intents and purposes.

Paper Mario has genuinely had some awful luck when it comes to Smash. He was too early for Melee, outprioritized by more glaring omissions from other series like Meta Knight and Dedede, had to compete with a bunch of new series and supporting characters that had become more relevant in Smash for, and there was no real chance of him being in Ultimate's base game due to not being as popular as Ridley, K. Rool, and the Belmonts or as relevant as Inkling, Isabelle, or Incineroar.

Even now, I don't think there's any chance PM gets in over Waluigi or Geno. They just have too much popularity and the timing is too perfect for PM to out-prioritize them. The TTYD Remake helps slightly, but Smash doesn't tend to give remakes significant content and I really think that SMRPG would get priority over TTYD simply due to Geno's legacy among the Smash fanbase and the fact that SMRPG was the more legally and technically impressive remake. Seriously, why does the 20-year-old GameCube original look and run better than a remake from Nintendo's most affluent era ever?
 

Louie G.

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Paper Mario not being a Mario game actually would have hurt Paper Mario's chances for Brawl, IMO. Brawl was all about filling out the supporting casts of series already in the game. Olimar was the exception because Pikmin was a new, major Miyamoto IP. You could also note that Wario was in his own series, but Wario is also a Mario character for all intents and purposes.
It's an interesting thought right? Brawl's role was largely to fill out mainstay franchises, but it was coming off a period of Nintendo that was arguably introducing more new series than ever. Golden Sun, Chibi-Robo, Advance Wars, Starfy, Rhythm Heaven, arguably Custom Robo or Sin & Punishment if you want to extend it out toward the beginning of the decade (Melee's roster had been decided at that point, pretty sure).

Smash 4 ended up being the game to really hone in on bringing in new series, and in retrospect I think that roster is pretty strong for it. And I think for Brawl's release window, being the third game in the series, bringing in some of the big obvious omissions like Wario, Diddy Kong, Dedede was kind of the name of the game. So it's really just unfortunate timing that prevented Brawl from capitalizing on a lot of cool, promising new faces that all unfortunately kinda fizzled out.

Not to distract from your point, which I suppose I agree with. It's just interesting to reflect on how this roster approach ended up being kind of in conflict with one of Nintendo's most fruitful "throw everything at the wall" eras of creativity. Part of me wonders if the lack of a proper Smash "boost" ended up really hurting these series in the long run, lol.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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Even now, I don't think there's any chance PM gets in over Waluigi or Geno. They just have too much popularity and the timing is too perfect for PM to out-prioritize them. The TTYD Remake helps slightly, but Smash doesn't tend to give remakes significant content and I really think that SMRPG would get priority over TTYD simply due to Geno's legacy among the Smash fanbase and the fact that SMRPG was the more legally and technically impressive remake. Seriously, why does the 20-year-old GameCube original look and run better than a remake from Nintendo's most affluent era ever?
Yeah, as much as I love Paper Mario and wish he would be playable in a Smash game, especially this upcoming game while his most recent games are Origami King and TTYD (both in my top 3 for the series tbh), he feels incredibly unlikely just by the sheer fact that he's a version of Mario, but one that would require a lot of work time as opposed to someone like Doc due to requiring a completely unique moveset, playstyle, and statistics, let alone competition he potentially faces within the series from characters like Waluigi and Geno.

He basically joins a lot of the rest of the characters I want to see playable in Smash one day as something of a long shot, though less of one than most of them, since the rest of them are characters like Starfy, Fossil Fighters T-Rex, Tibby from Rhythm Heaven (say what you will but next year it'll have been a decade since Megamix), and Reimu from Touhou lmao
 

smashkirby

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It's not just the Wario branding. But because like....it's hard to see what WarioWare would be like without Wario, mostly because Wario is practically the main cause of why the games happen in the first place. Most WarioWare games start because of Wario wanting to get rich quick, because he finds something that thinks will be big in the market or is the cause of something that happened. In most occasions, he suckers the others into helping him, though in Move It!, they pressure him into taking them on the vacation he won.
Probably the only game where Wario doesn't really play any big part in is WarioWare Smooth Moves where it just explores each character doing their own thing. But without Wario, the other games practically wouldn't exist without his greedy shenanigans and you wouldn't have a character who serves as an antithesis to the other characters who are more laid back(in one way or another) compared to him.
And considering how some people don't like Wario's WarioWare incarnation for his focus on gross humor compared to his focus on being a greedy treasure hunter who pummels foes with his brute strength as often portrayed in the WarioLand games, I'm pretty sure any character hypothetically made to be in his place would hardly have any popularity and they'd be the Demitri(probably even lower compared to Demitri) to Ashley and Mona's Morrigan and Felicia.
Not a BIG deal, but I have to admit... it's kind of fascinating to imagine Ashley and Mona being likened to Darkstalkers' Morrigan and Felicia (not that I think that's off-the-mark or anything).
 

Loungemen

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Ridley and K Rool had a hell of a time. Hopefully Waluigi can break through the glass this time around
I'd like to see how much further Sakurai can go without adding Waluigi or Bandana Dee, it’s almost a running joke at this point. Honestly if he continues the trend throughout next game I will laugh.
 
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