Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Speed Weed]

I think something that should be taken into consideration when talking Ayumi is we have very little actually indicating just how heavily she was being considered. AFAIK, all we have is Sakurai saying "I thought about putting her in, but her lack of worldwide appeal screwed her over". I understand why this is being read the way it is, but I've seen people acting like Ayumi would've definitely gotten in otherwise, like the regional issue was the only barrier preventing what otherwise would've been a surefire inclusion, and I just want to point out that for all we know, Ayumi could have just been a momentary consideration, probably one of many others that we don't know about. We have nothing indicating that she was ever anywhere close to genuinely getting in. It's important to have that context in mind, especially considering how long ago this has been now.

I'm not even saying the new game doesn't help her. Of course it's a big boon for her, and the fact that we know she has been on Sakurai's mind before helps place her in the conversation more solidly. But I also think it's important to realize and contextualize just how much she was actually being considered, and I don't think this was necessarily some grand decision he made that he's still thinking about 20+ years later. It's something for sure, I'd just advise against putting her on the same level as like, Wario in terms of Melee also-rans

 

[Louie G.]

Ayumi could have just been a momentary consideration, probably one of many others that we don't know about. We have nothing indicating that she was ever anywhere close to genuinely getting in. It's important to have that context in mind, especially considering how long ago this has been now.

I agree with this sentiment and want to bring up an interesting parallel - Marth.

So there are a few differences to note here, one is that Marth / Roy were briefly considered to be JP exclusive characters. Obviously that didn’t happen and I have to assume it was never a very serious consideration. But they both survived this while Ayumi was handwaved for a similar concern. Fire Emblem is decidedly a more active series than FDC at this rate too. If it was ever something really serious, surely she could have been in the same boat.

I’m willing to guess Ayumi was in the same conversation as Ice Climbers. An old school pull that didn’t make it too far in the running because that nostalgia factor wasn’t going to land for a bulk of the game’s playerbase. But I want to say Sakurai likely has an affinity for FDC to have considered and mentioned her at all, so perhaps that love has persisted long enough to act on it now, at the moment where she is more viable than ever.

But yeah it’s always been kind of interesting to see Ayumi put on this pedestal when she was effectively in the same conversation as Bubbles from Clu Clu Land. Perhaps its just because of how striking and unusual of a choice she would have been, which I can’t deny. This vagueness surrounding how much Sakurai really toyed with the idea is pretty much the reason I hadn’t taken her too seriously up to this point, but I’m glad that we have an excuse to at least humor it now with some more substance to back it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

The Famicom 40th Anniversary page has updated a while ago. They added the 1993-94 Nintendo Games

任天堂ソフト一覧 | ファミリーコンピュータ | 任天堂

任天堂から発売したファミリーコンピュータ／ディスクシステムのソフト一覧です。

www.nintendo.com

If they continue with this, there are two options:

1. Making a list for 3rd Party games
2. Making a list for American/western games (To the Earth, GumShoe, StarTropics)

Both aren't probable, but i'm sure they have finish it.

I hope it's the former. I've love to see some Mega Man, Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden, and River City pages.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I’m willing to guess Ayumi was in the same conversation as Ice Climbers. An old school pull that didn’t make it too far in the running because that nostalgia factor wasn’t going to land for a bulk of the game’s playerbase.

Difference between FDC and the likes of Ice Climber, Clu Clu Land, Excitebike, Urban Champion, and Balloon Fight(*)?

It was still an active franchise that wasn't locked to the Famicom by when Melee's design document was made (July 5th, 1999) since Part II (The Girl Who Stands Behind) had a Super Famicom remake in 1998. That's later than the last outings of and .

It's more likely she was considered completely separate to the decision that resulted in since that was exclusively for (at the time since Excitebike 64 would happen after decision was made) Famicom-only stars.


*Balloon Fight would have a Game Boy sequel in 1990, but it starred someone else and wasn't released in Japan in its original state so it would factor as much as Of Myths and Monsters does for Kid Icarus.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Ayumi is basically the assistant character in the series.

Think of characters like Maya Fey, Susato Mikotoba and Luke Triton and she's in that same box.

To be honest, that's why I always wondered why she was considered and not the playable protagonist, which are usually reps for series in Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

*Balloon Fight would have a Game Boy sequel in 1990, but it starred someone else and wasn't released in Japan in its original state so it would factor as much as Of Myths and Monsters does for Kid Icarus.

It did released in Japan, but only on the Nintendo Power service.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It did released in Japan, but only on the Nintendo Power service.

In 2000, well after Melee's design document.

My point was prior to when Balloon Fighter would be in the running, Balloon Kid was released in Japan as a Hello Kitty game rather than a sequel to Balloon Fight.

 

[Garteam]

WELL! ALRIGHT THEN! This is... this is a thing, apparently.

(For the record, this is me being genuinely thrilled to see Detective Club get a NEW game since... what? 1997??)



Legit thought the same thing. I'm not expecting Ayumi to be a guaranteed lock for Smash or anything, but I feel like the fact that Sakurai's hang-up on her being added to Melee was her lack of notoriety outside of Japan. Like, you'd think 'lack of moveset potential' would ALSO be brought up, but...



As someone who absolutely ADORES both Kirby AND the Waddle Dee species as a whole, it's nice to see them depicted more as (best) friends than enemies. From what I've heard, they've always been depicted as that in Japan/Asia as a whole, while (most of) the rest of the world simply looks at Waddle Dee as the 'Goomba' of Kirby.

In terms of Dedede and Meta Knight, I think part of why they don't get as much as Kirby and Waddle Dee is because Dedede has a more 'complicated' design (I mean, Kirby and Waddle Dee are literally just gorbs (good orbs) and Meta Knight's 'darkness' might serve as... a bit of an impediment?



Interesting... for all the hype Namco places on things like Tales and (ESPECIALLY) their arcade output, I'd think there'd be more on that front...



Huh, really? Don't get me wrong, I love Mickey and Peanuts, but I was sort of wondering if Bugs Bunny and the like get much love...

Namco does have a pretty sizeable arcade output form what I’ve seen, but a lot of it is licensed stuff from the Bandai side of things (e.g. the stupidly fun JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure: Last Survivor). Taiko no Tatsujin seems to be their biggest and most popular arcade game based on an original IP, followed by Tekken.

I still haven’t seen any classic Warner Bros. stuff, unfortunately. Japan seems to love Peanuts more than either Mickey and Friends or Warner Bros.’s IPs. I see a lot of people wearing clothing with Snoopy and Woodstock and there’s even a chocolate chain based on Snoopy. I wonder if the slower, more cerebral style of Peanuts just gels better with Japanese cultural values and stylings. IIRC, Looney Tunes inspired the animation style of Darkstalkers, so it should have some presence in Japan.

What of Digimon?

Nothing new from Digimon. I did see some older merchandise in second hand stores, though.

 

[Lionfranky]

I remember hearing from someone here that Japanese youths were quite confused by Banjo's reveal. And I do remember how even Japanese themselves kinda mocked Terry. Not to diss Japanese market, but do people overblow Japanese issue?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I remember hearing from someone here that Japanese youths were quite confused by Banjo's reveal. And I do remember how even Japanese themselves kinda mocked Terry. Not to diss Japanese market, but do people overblow Japanese issue?

I'd like some sources on that. It would be the first I've heard of either of those things.

 

[Speed Weed]

I remember hearing from someone here that Japanese youths were quite confused by Banjo's reveal. And I do remember how even Japanese themselves kinda mocked Terry. Not to diss Japanese market, but do people overblow Japanese issue?

Seconding Swamp in that I'd like sources, but in Terry's case it probably just comes down to generational divide - SNK fighting games were a huge deal in Japanese arcades

 

[Guynamednelson]

I remember hearing from someone here that Japanese youths were quite confused by Banjo's reveal

Really people were just assuming that because Hero made certain western Smash fans mad, the same applied to Banjo in Japan. Besides, it's not like younger Smash fans in the west fully approved of Banjo either.

 

[Louie G.]

The only comparable thing I remember about Terry was some people in Japan visually likening him to a buff Pokemon Trainer. I don’t recall any serious backlash or mass confusion around either of them, but I’m sure younger folks may have been exposed to them for the first time just like over here.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The only comparable thing I remember about Terry was some people in Japan visually likening him to a buff Pokemon Trainer. I don’t recall any serious backlash or mass confusion around either of them, but I’m sure younger folks may have been exposed to them for the first time just like over here.

Buff Pokémon Trainer is so much better than Hat Ken. lol. I will have to use this later.

 

[Noipoi]

I remember memes going around that this was a Pokemon evolutionary line

 

[Diddy Kong]

Got a worse one for Terry

Spoiler

Diddy and Dixie Kong's human love child

 

[Will]

Got a worse one for Terry

Spoiler

Diddy and Dixie Kong's human love child

Thats just a bizarre statement to make in general

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Nothing new from Digimon. I did see some older merchandise in second hand stores, though.

So it's true what I heard that Bandai doesn't really give it much presence out in the open.

 

[Sucumbio]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

 

[Will]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

People who are high off copium were mad that the Hero filename leak was in fact for Hero.

 

[DKing]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

I was hype mostly knew dragon quest because of the anime and the DQ 8 game but man some people were angry mostly in the west. Still happy Erdrick got in.

 

[Guynamednelson]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

Where do you think "Hoes Mad" came from?

 

[fogbadge]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

all I remember from back then was B&K hype

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

Why do you think the "HOES MAD" meme happened?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Huh...I wasn't expecting RCS3K to get a direct sequel.

More fuel for Kunio fire!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

People were mad at Hero? I don't remember but I think I joined speculation right after his reveal...

People who are high off copium were mad that the Hero filename leak was in fact for Hero.

There was that and there was "NO! NOT RNG! ANYTHING BUT RNG!" Though that response was more of the kneejerk "they broken!" response that tends to happen with DLC characters.

 

[Sucumbio]

I don't know about the HOES MAD meme looks it up so it's not even original it's a song that came out years prior wtf lol

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'd like some sources on that. It would be the first I've heard of either of those things.

I definitely feel like I remember screenshots from around the time of Banjo's reveal where some Japanese fans were sorta confused on who they were, but it wasn't like a crazy amount? It was less like "who cares about them" (since I think a lot of JP fans were also happy) and more some of them not knowing him since his last game was in like 2008 (which was on the Xbox so frankly you might as well not even count it considering their presence in Japan lol)?

Of course I could also be confusing/conflating this with the reaction of Japanese fans to Little Mac which I'm pretty sure was a way more widespread general feeling of "Oh he's way more popular overseas" and "wait, from Punch-Out? For real? Is that memorable enough for a character?" lol

 

[Gengar84]

Huh...I wasn't expecting RCS3K to get a direct sequel.

More fuel for Kunio fire!

How was the first game? I really enjoyed the River City Girls games so I’ll consider giving this one a try at some point. I also love Dynasty Warriors so it would be cool to see the same basic concept in a whole new way.

 

[DarthEnderX]

How was the first game?

Pretty good RC game. Not as good as Rival Showdown or Girls though.

 

[Jave]

A bit late to this but best wishes to all Ayumi supporters. It's definitely a great time to be one now.

 

[Louie G.]

People who are high off copium were mad that the Hero filename leak was in fact for Hero.

I love remembering that once upon a team people believed “Brave” could be Banjo or Sora. Because they’re brave.

As funny as that is in retrospect, I guess its cool that those people were kinda sorta validated later lol.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I love remembering that once upon a team people believed “Brave” could be Banjo or Sora. Because they’re brave.

You don't understand....banjos are the instruments of bravery.

 

[Laniv]

Can you imagine if Banjo and Kazooie's filenames (buddy and partner) had leaked? People would be dancing in the streets.

...oh God, can you imagine what would have happened if Terry's codename (dolly) had leaked?

 

[Will]

...oh God, can you imagine what would have happened if Terry's codename (dolly) had leaked?

That’s right folks, she’s in.

Or Geno, I guess…

 

[Guynamednelson]

Are we really still going on about "haha people thought brave was banjo" 5 years after Banjo was revealed in the same direct anyway?

 

[fogbadge]

Can you imagine if Banjo and Kazooie's filenames (buddy and partner) had leaked? People would be dancing in the streets.

...oh God, can you imagine what would have happened if Terry's codename (dolly) had leaked?

really? could any of his fans enlighten me as to why that's his code name

 

[Guynamednelson]

really? could any of his fans enlighten me as to why that's his code name

The best assumption people have is that it's a word made out syllables you can get from mistranslating テリー・ボガード as "Telly Bogado"

 

[dream1ng]

I remember hearing from someone here that Japanese youths were quite confused by Banjo's reveal. And I do remember how even Japanese themselves kinda mocked Terry. Not to diss Japanese market, but do people overblow Japanese issue?

This seems like the kind of thing someone saw in one Japanese reaction and went "well this must be what Japan thinks"

 

[Louie G.]

Are we really still going on about "haha people thought brave was banjo" 5 years after Banjo was revealed in the same direct anyway?

That’s what I said, everyone in that equation was vindicated one way or another even if the details weren’t totally correct. But it was still pretty funny in retrospect. We’ve got a knack for coming to the right conclusion in the wrong way.

I really like both Hero and Banjo, for whatever that’s worth.