Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

It's not easy to come up with a plot that gives thirty-something different characters from very disparate universes a notable role and weaves together somewhat coherently. Especially when none of them can ****ing speak.

Even fighting games where they do speak often have nonsense arcs for like half the cast. Like one of them goes on a journey across the world because someone stole his favorite hat or something.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Even fighting games where they do speak often have nonsense arcs for like half the cast. Like one of them goes on a journey across the world because someone stole his favorite hat or something.

Alex: "Are you trying to mug me?"
Dhalsim: "I just need that chess piece."
Alex: "I'll teach you to mug people!"
FIGHT!

 

[fogbadge]

awkward cutscenes and stages you’re only going to play once.

speak for yourself

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay guys, I need your help.

I'm working on a project. I won't go into details now... but I'm trying to get as many requests I can find on the internet for each franchise. I'm not going to get everyone. I know that. But I'm going to try and cover my bases. For most franchises, this isn't so bad. For Pokemon, it was a nightmare. I'm trying to be thorough. I'm trying to include anything I've seen a reasonable amount of times.

I need another pair of eyes to help me on this. I need help trimming this list down (while still including most names) while also adding any Pokemon requests I may have missed. To give you an idea of just how in depth I'm going here, the Mario and Zelda sections had lots of regular enemies like Goomba, Bokoblin, and yes Oracle Link, I included Octorok. The overwhelming majority of the characters on the lists will never be included. But if they're requested just a notable amount of times, I'd like them on the list.

So... here's my Pokemon list...

Spoiler: List

Fair warning. It's really is huge.

Spoiler: Actual List

Pokemon

Bulbasaur
Venusaur
Blastoise
Charmander
Raichu
Alolan Raichu
Nidoking
Clefairy
Meowth
Psyduck
Poliwhilrl
Alakazam
Machamp
Geodude
Slowpoke
Magnemite
Gengar
Ditto
Eevee
Vaporeon
Snorlax
Mew
Meganium
Typhlosion
Feraligatr
Furrett
Togepi
Ampharos
Maril
Wobbufett
Scizor
Heracross
Celebi
Grovyle
Sceptile
Blaziken
Swampert
Gardevoir
Breloom
Aggron
Plusle
Minun
Absol
Spheal
Jirachi
Deoxsys
Torterra
Infernape
Piplup
Empoleon
Lopunny
Garchomp
Croagunk
Weavile
Electivire
Gallade
Dusknoir
Darkrai
Arceus
Snivy
Emboar
Oshawott
Krookodile
Zoroark
Gothitelle
Axew
Emolga
Landorus
Genesect
Chesnaught
Delphox
Aegislash
Sylveon
Dedenne
Goodra
Rowlett
Decidueye
Litten
Primarina
Lycanroc
Salazzle
Bewear
Tsareena
Golisopod
Type: Null
Mimikyu
Tapu Koko
Buzzwole
Pheromosa
Zeraora
Melmetal
Rillaboom
Cinderace
Intellion
Hatterene
Dragapult
Zacian
Zamazeta
Urshifu
Meowscarada
Skeledirge
Quaquaval
Pawmot
Armarouge
Ceruledge
Tinkaton
Scream Tail
Gholdengo
Koraidon
Miraidon
Ogerpon
Any Pokemon not on this list
Another Pokemon Trainer concept
A human character from Pokemon

 

[osby]

Okay guys, I need your help.

I'm working on a project. I won't go into details now... but I'm trying to get as many requests I can find on the internet for each franchise. I'm not going to get everyone. I know that. But I'm going to try and cover my bases. For most franchises, this isn't so bad. For Pokemon, it was a nightmare. I'm trying to be thorough. I'm trying to include anything I've seen a reasonable amount of times.

I need another pair of eyes to help me on this. I need help trimming this list down (while still including most names) while also adding any Pokemon requests I may have missed. To give you an idea of just how in depth I'm going here, the Mario and Zelda sections had lots of regular enemies like Goomba, Bokoblin, and yes Oracle Link, I included Octorok. The overwhelming majority of the characters on the lists will never be included. But if they're requested just a notable amount of times, I'd like them on the list.

So... here's my Pokemon list...

Spoiler: List

Fair warning. It's really is huge.

Spoiler: Actual List

Pokemon

Bulbasaur
Venusaur
Blastoise
Charmander
Raichu
Alolan Raichu
Nidoking
Clefairy
Meowth
Psyduck
Poliwhilrl
Alakazam
Machamp
Geodude
Slowpoke
Magnemite
Gengar
Ditto
Eevee
Vaporeon
Snorlax
Mew
Meganium
Typhlosion
Feraligatr
Furrett
Togepi
Ampharos
Maril
Wobbufett
Scizor
Heracross
Celebi
Grovyle
Sceptile
Blaziken
Swampert
Gardevoir
Breloom
Aggron
Plusle
Minun
Absol
Spheal
Jirachi
Deoxsys
Torterra
Infernape
Piplup
Empoleon
Lopunny
Garchomp
Croagunk
Weavile
Electivire
Gallade
Dusknoir
Darkrai
Arceus
Snivy
Emboar
Oshawott
Krookodile
Zoroark
Gothitelle
Axew
Emolga
Landorus
Genesect
Chesnaught
Delphox
Aegislash
Sylveon
Dedenne
Goodra
Rowlett
Decidueye
Litten
Primarina
Lycanroc
Salazzle
Bewear
Tsareena
Golisopod
Type: Null
Mimikyu
Tapu Koko
Buzzwole
Pheromosa
Zeraora
Melmetal
Rillaboom
Cinderace
Intellion
Hatterene
Dragapult
Zacian
Zamazeta
Urshifu
Meowscarada
Skeledirge
Quaquaval
Pawmot
Armarouge
Ceruledge
Tinkaton
Scream Tail
Gholdengo
Koraidon
Miraidon
Ogerpon
Any Pokemon not on this list
Another Pokemon Trainer concept
A human character from Pokemon

Not sure if that's what you're looking for but I saw Milotic and Spiritomb requested quite a few times... as a part of Cynthia's moveset.

 

[RouffWestie]

I really can't see a rougelike adventure mode bringing anything to the table that Smash hasn't already done better. 64 to Ultimate all have modes that reward players who can do no-death runs while simultaneously giving less hardcore players the option to continue for a lowered reward. The perk system seems like a straight downgrade from Spirits.
It would be better to just bring back Crazy Orders as a side mode.

 

[Dinoman96]

I wish Sakurai would stop moaning about the cutscene **** when it's kinda obvious the real reason we're never gonna get Subspace 2 is just because it was a complete waste of resources and there's too many damn characters now. He himself has even admitted that.

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

For Smash Ultimate, it was decided early on to have a substantial single player. However, they couldn’t increase the workload even more by introducing elements such as unique enemies or scrolling terrain.

Smash Ultimate is in a unique position because it has so many fighters, lots of IPs to draw from, loads of music and stages.

Battles meant to be short as the amount would be a lot. The idea to use the various titles and try to capture that character’s likeness in battle started the idea that would eventually snowball into Spirits mode.

He even reiterated this in his video regarding Smash Ultimate's development here.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I wish Sakurai would stop moaning about the cutscene **** when it's kinda obvious the real reason we're never gonna get Subspace 2 is just because it was a complete waste of resources and there's too many damn characters now. He himself has even admitted that.

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

He even reiterated this in his video regarding Smash Ultimate's development here.

Honestly given how much of a misfire (in sheer quantity) the OC enemies were and how bland the scrolling terrain levels in came off as in Subspace Emissary, I'm inclined to believe the sheer workload of Ultimate was a blessing in disguise for getting us a much more focused single player campaign.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I wish Sakurai would stop moaning about the cutscene **** when it's kinda obvious the real reason we're never gonna get Subspace 2 is just because it was a complete waste of resources and there's too many damn characters now. He himself has even admitted that.

Well it's not a waste. There's value there. It's just a lot of work. It also explains why no Smash Run either.

Perhaps some sort of side scroller mode will be possible, even if it's just a couple levels attatched to classic mode or something. At the very least I hope we'll get more than one bonus level should they try to include one.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Subspace Emissary was great. Best Adventure Mode of Smash so far. Combine elements of this with Smash Run elements minus the chaos of Smash Run and add a bit of the OG Adventure Mode of Melee and we're good. To be honest, as grandiose and taxing as it was, it would make for a great DLC add on to a new Smash. I can only picture it like that cause DLC characters would need to play their role too eventually.

I also might be biased for SSE cause Diddy had an amazing role in it and it captured his persona greatly, even better than the Retro made DKC games. So there's that.

 

[RileyXY1]

I wish Sakurai would stop moaning about the cutscene **** when it's kinda obvious the real reason we're never gonna get Subspace 2 is just because it was a complete waste of resources and there's too many damn characters now. He himself has even admitted that.

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

He even reiterated this in his video regarding Smash Ultimate's development here.

Subspace also played a part in Brawl's development, such as why so many characters were cut and why the game had to be on a dual-layered disc.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Subspace also played a part in Brawl's development, such as why so many characters were cut and why the game had to be on a dual-layered disc.

Sonic getting greenlit right at the end of development didn't help either.

 

[RileyXY1]

Sonic getting greenlit right at the end of development didn't help either.

Yeah. Brawl's development was pretty much a huge mess.

 

[superprincess]

I think we can all agree that leaks were not the reason an adventure mode like SSE has never happened again. It's pretty much a combination of there being too many characters and prioritizing newcomer trailers to stir up hype.

The trailers are self-contained and not narrative driven at all, so it's not really a direct compromise. Ultimate sorely lacks character interaction despite having so many CGI trailers dedicated to its newcomers.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's clear that leaks did affect Sakurai a tad, but obviously wasn't the core reason.

That, and when 70% was spent on SSE, that definitely wasn't a good way to do it. That's way too much spent on a part of the game that isn't the most important(the characters are always the most important), which led to horrible balancing, also affected some cuts and characters who were attempted to be put in(except Dixie Kong. He outright told us he couldn't get her working. But anyone else except maybe Pra_Mai would've gone fine. Transform gimmick reused with Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik is not really hard to see working when the adult versions do~ Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo returning is pretty easy as well. So even if it's 5 out of 7, that's still a lot more fun characters to use).

 

[Noipoi]

If they did something like World of Light but with character interactions, that’d be cool. Even just quick scenes with character portraits over dialogue boxes.

If the writing was fun and fitting for all the characters, and the match-ups were interesting, it’d go a long way.

 

[RileyXY1]

If they did something like World of Light but with character interactions, that’d be cool. Even just quick scenes with character portraits over dialogue boxes.

If the writing was fun and fitting for all the characters, and the match-ups were interesting, it’d go a long way.

I want to see something like NASB2's campaign mode, which would include a lot of character interactions and roguelike gameplay.

 

[Will]

This is what I would like from the next non-Classic single player mode:

• The multi-level casual experience from Melee’s Adventure Mode (MAM) that would take approximately 20-30 minutes to complete per character

I liked SSE and WoL, but I’m going to be completely honest with you. The main reason I played them was to unlock all of the cast as fast as possible. But I also loved Melee’s Adventure Mode as a single-player experience. I want this kind of gameplay formula that naturally flows between stages of gameplay— from exploring worlds, challenging my platforming skills, or engaging battles.

• The level design of SSE maps combined with MAM’s worldbuilding

They don’t need to be as long as them for a bite-sized adventure. I’m talking something like Melee’s Mushroom Kingdom level; something that immerses you in their world, but in SSE’s level design.

Imagine Lucas’ runaway scene from Porky Statue was actually in the vibrant, neon New Pork City, and not wherever the **** abandoned concrete jungle in SSE. Then, after the escape, a Smash battle on the actual New Pork City map before moving on to the next stage.

• Variety of gameplay offered from MAM and Smash Run

Brinstar had a timed platforming challenge under the theme of the planet self-destructing. You can actually use this theme with other stages like Midgar, Venom, Mishima Dojo, it doesn’t even have to be because of explosives— Dracula’s Castle, lots of themes.

Big Blue Race? Bro, we literally have , which can also be used if they wanted to bring some of Smash Run’s final battles. They had obstacle races, although it was pretty skewed because of the custom stats.

I would understand getting another story mode, but I personally don’t want another original villain with a minimalistic design that is also somehow a metaphor for growing up… or something.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If they did something like World of Light but with character interactions, that’d be cool. Even just quick scenes with character portraits over dialogue boxes.

If the writing was fun and fitting for all the characters, and the match-ups were interesting, it’d go a long way.

Agreed.

 

[Master_Scorpion]

How would you feel if Pokemon got one rep for gen 8 and 9 and it was Corviknight and Tinkaton.

Also, do you still believe Male Corrin will be the default if they return or will it be Female. And do you think Bayonetta’s default will be from 2 or 3 now?

 

[Noipoi]

How would you feelif Pokemon got one rep for gen 8 and 9 and it was Corviknight and Tinkaton.

They should be one character. All their moves are actually just the two of them fighting, everyone else gets hurt by proxy. Like Tom & Jerry in Multiversus.

Also, do you still believe Male Corrin will be the default if they return or will it be Female.

It’ll stay the same.

And do you think Bayonetta’s default will be from 2 or 3 now?

I actually don’t know, I feel like 2 will be the default but 3 will be a costume.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that Pokémon might not get a rep in the base game for timing reasons, and would be saved for DLC instead.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pokemon isn't really saved for DLC. Mewtwo was a special situation. They're massive sellers and help push the base game more than ever.

It's pretty rare for it to be DLC, especially outside of a unique situation as noted above. if it's not base game, it's likely not there at all for a newcomer. Not that we're low on characters, heh.

 

[Will]

I think that Pokémon might not get a rep in the base game for timing reasons, and would be saved for DLC instead.

inb4 the next Pokemon rep is Zygarde

 

[Noipoi]

I think that Pokémon might not get a rep in the base game for timing reasons, and would be saved for DLC instead.

If Pokémon was a dlc franchise we would have gotten a Sword/Shield character in fighters pass 2.

Mewtwo was a special case because at a certain point some characters transcend their series and become a “Smash rep”. Bringing Roy back wasn’t seen as adding another FE character, it was seen as returning a Melee veteran.

The next Smash game will most likely have a new Pokemon in the base game, as always.

 

[RileyXY1]

If Pokémon was a dlc franchise we would have gotten a Sword/Shield character in fighters pass 2.

Mewtwo was a special case because at a certain point some characters transcend their series and become a “Smash rep”. Bringing Roy back wasn’t seen as adding another FE character, it was seen as returning a Melee veteran.

The next Smash game will most likely have a new Pokemon in the base game, as always.

There might be timing issues the same way ARMS and XC2 had. The next Smash game might actually come out before Gen 10 does, which might end up resulting in another Roy situation happening.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I also might be biased for SSE cause Diddy had an amazing role in it and it captured his persona greatly, even better than the Retro made DKC games. So there's that.

Agreed, I'd even argue Diddy is characterized better in Subspace than in in his moveset lol

 

[Noipoi]

There might be timing issues the same way ARMS and XC2 had. The next Smash game might actually come out before Gen 10 does, which might end up resulting in another Roy situation happening.

If it's too early for Gen 10 they'll go for Gen 9

Incineroar, a gen 7 starter, was the Pokemon added in Ultimate. Which came out in 2018, one year before generation 8 started in 2019.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There might be timing issues the same way ARMS and XC2 had. The next Smash game might actually come out before Gen 10 does, which might end up resulting in another Roy situation happening.

Roy was added before his game came out. ...Like some Pokemon. That's the Roy Situation.

So what are you talking about??

 

[dream1ng]

It's true Pokemon has never been promoted via DLC. But it's also true that Smash hasn't come out after a newer gen has already released.

If Gen X arrives in 2025, and Smash 6's base was chosen in 2023, two years exceeds the precedent of how far in the future unreleased characters can be utilized. But, if Smash 6 releases in 2026, it will already be after Gen 9 has exited its promotion window, and Gen X will be the one in the current spotlight.

It's true Pokemon hasn't been promotional DLC, but Pokemon and Smash's schedules have also never clashed like this. Lucario, Greninja and Incineroar were all only one year away from their gen releasing when those rosters were made; this could potentially be two. Remember, XC2, which was two years away at the time of Ultimate's base being built, was considered too distant to be useable.

Promotion is largely hinged on timing, more so than some ideological barrier of "well, a promo Pokemon can't be DLC!", and this timing is new for Smash.

With that in mind, I do agree with Riley, it seems plausible they defer the character to DLC. Not guaranteed, ofc, but certainly plausible.

As to not getting a Sw/Sh character if Pokemon was DLC a franchise; well it had already received one promotional addition that game. Them not getting a second isn't that strange.

 

[Opossum]

Yeah, with Pokémon, it's not that it will get a DLC character because Gen X would be too late for base.

It's that "Pokémon as a franchise probably won't be allowed in the game at ALL unless there's a new character in the base game, so they'll go for Gen IX if need be if Gen X isn't out yet, because nothing is worth losing Pikachu." Everything Sakurai has said points to a new character being mandatory for each base game for them to be in TPCi's good graces.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If it's too early for Gen 10 they'll go for Gen 9

Incineroar, a gen 7 starter, was the Pokemon added in Ultimate. Which came out in 2018, one year before generation 8 started in 2019.

Unless the hypothetical next Smash picked its roster before Gen 9 released and is ready to be shown off any second now, it's not "too early" for Gen 10.

A Gen 7 Pokémon was given a placeholder slot for Ultimate well before Sun and Moon dropped as the design document was drafted as early as December of 2015.


I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated.

 

[Noipoi]

This will become another meaningless conversation when the next Smash is announced for 2027

 

[superprincess]

We don't have much to go by but the odds are leaning towards 2026 from the limited knowledge we have.

 

[dream1ng]

Yeah, with Pokémon, it's not that it will get a DLC character because Gen X would be too late for base.

It's that "Pokémon as a franchise probably won't be allowed in the game at ALL unless there's a new character in the base game, so they'll go for Gen IX if need be if Gen X isn't out yet, because nothing is worth losing Pikachu." Everything Sakurai has said points to a new character being mandatory for each base game for them to be in TPCi's good graces.

Well, first of all, none of this precludes getting a non-promo newcomer in base if the timing doesn't work for a promo one, which will be held for DLC.

Second, DLC characters aren't lesser than base characters. There's nothing to say TPC wouldn't be satisfied with a character that gets its own showcase where all eyes are on it, as opposed to as part of a larger general Smash 6 showcase.

They already do that for Pokemon Presents.

And they would negotiate for that at the beginning of the game's development; it's not like Sakurai would be like "sorry, nothing for base, try again for DLC!". They'd know they were getting their promotional character, it was just at a time that was actually feasible.

And frankly if the character was DLC, TPC could probably negotiate back-end on it like the third-parties do.

 

[Sucumbio]

I always thought if FE could get a DLC slot anyone could but maybe not idk...

 

[dream1ng]

Unless the hypothetical next Smash picked its roster before Gen 9 released and is ready to be shown off any second now, it's not "too early" for Gen 10.

A Gen 7 Pokémon was given a placeholder slot for Ultimate well before Sun and Moon dropped as the design document was drafted as early as December of 2015.


I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated.

That was one year before Sun & Moon dropped. Much like Greninja and X/Y & 4 before it. If 6 started development last year, and Gen 10 arrives next year, that would be roughly twice the distance away S&M was from Ultimate's base being built. That would be two years.

That puts it in the range of XC2's distance from Ultimate's base, which was noted to be too far.

If Smash 6's base was made this year, then yes, that would fall within the precedent of being in a useable timeframe, assuming a 2025 Gen 10 release.

Which isn't to suggest the timeframe is outright impossible, but to date it hasn't happened, and a game of similar distance away wasn't workable.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If they pick from Gen 10, and SSBNext comes before it, do you think it's more likely for the pick to not be a fully evolved starter?

 

[Noipoi]

Resists urge to break out my chart on why Gen 10 could be 2026 for the fifteenth time

I just like speculating about Pokemon you guys!

This is why I’m single

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

That was one year before Sun & Moon dropped. Much like Greninja and X/Y & 4 before it. If 6 started development last year, and Gen 10 arrives next year, that would be roughly twice the distance away S&M was from Ultimate's base being built. That would be two years.

That puts it in the range of XC2's distance from Ultimate's base, which was noted to be too far.

If Smash 6's base was made this year, then yes, that would fall within the precedent of being in a useable timeframe, assuming a 2025 Gen 10 release.

Which isn't to suggest the timeframe is outright impossible, but to date it hasn't happened, and a game of similar distance away wasn't workable.

Except we know Pokemon gets a placeholder. Every single time.
XBC doesn't.

It literally cannot be compared.

Better to go by RELEVANT AND CONFIRMED precedence than a hypothetical.