Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Opossum]

How would you rebuild Min Min to be more fun?

I'd revert her back throw so it more consistently combos into her forward smash again and let people cry about it lol.

Min Min already is fun. Not every character needs to fit every person's homogenized idea of fun. Variety is good and I like her.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

How would you rebuild Min Min to be more fun?

What I'd expect is something like this:

• Ram Ram no longer curves around ledges.
• Up Smash is slower.
• Several other balance changes that aren't specifically trying to stamp out her degenerate attributes.

The Super Smash Bros. series doesn't really rework characters like other fighting games do. The closest one to it would be Pit, as while updating the character, they swapped out two Special Moves that acted kinda strangely, or Wolf, who had a decent amount of new normals to replace the ones that didn't make sense on him, and give him more of an identity. Roy was reworked too, but that was more of a natural conclusion of the ideas presented in SSBM.

If we were to redo her move set, we'd have to take an approach similar to what was done with characters like Jack-O and Bedman in Guilty Gear Strive. The mechanical ideas need to still be present, so the goal will be to find an alternate way to implement them. With that in mind, I think Min Min's core ideas are:

• A projectile-less projectile zoner that uses large, disjointed hitboxes to play keep-away.
• The ability to mix up her zoning game by choosing whether or not to throw a second punch.
• The ability to mix up her zoning game by equipping new ARMS that give her punches new properties.
• Less integral to the character's identity in Smash, but her deflect kick and dragon ARM power up need to stay, as they reference integral parts of her kit in ARMS.

I think the most natural way of reworking these ideas would be to give her Dhalsim style normals that all have two inputs; One for each punch. Kinda like Link's forward smash, but with the goal of improving zoning capabilities. The first punch would always be the ARM that you can swap out with ARMS Change, and the second one would always be the Dragon ARM. As for her special moves, ARMS Jump/ARM Hook, and ARMS Change would stay the same, but Punch would be removed entirely, likely replaced with ARMS Grab, a referance to how grabs work in ARMS, and Deflect Kick, now a special move instead of an up smash. If ARMS 2 was on the table in enough time, a mechanic from there could be used in the rework, but I think this is pretty much what they'll have to work with sans making up another move.

Will people like this more? Probably not. Smash fans kinda hate the archetype in general so reworking it probably won't make people all that happy. In that case, is it even worth it? Does this count as reworking a character that didn't quite land, or changing a character that people do genuinely like in the hopes that the loud people that don't might come around?

There is the fact that she would probably be healthier for competitive play, but there is something to be said about Smash also being a casual party game, and having characters that cater more to that aspect of it. In that respect, she's a bit of a noob stomper, but I think she's fine, and there isn't really a version of her that doesn't have that issue. That's what items are for anyway.

 

[Perkilator]

How would you rebuild Min Min to be more fun?

I actually did my own overhaul a while back.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Super Smash Bros. series doesn't really rework characters like other fighting games do.

Actually the more that I think about it, the more I think Guilty Gear Strive is a special case. The game's goal was to trim the fat off of each character's move sets and hone in their mechanics, so to a certain extent, everyone gets a rework. Baiken and Slayer both got central mechanics effectively removed because the game's overall mechanics wouldn't support them, but shades of them still exist; Baiken still has a counter that can be used on defense (as opposed to only being useful as a hard read), and Slayer did get a special move that works out of his back dash as an allusion to backdash canceling, which in theory gives him a similar tool to the mechanic as well.

Jack-O and Bedman got their central mechanics reqorked because their original kits were either kinda lost in the sauce. The two were made more intuitive both to play and to balance. Testament and Elphelt were basically turned into new characters, and I'm not entirely certain as to why. Testament's problem was more that their traps had almost 0 telegraphing (they were invisible, and the animation of them putting one down was a little flap on the bottom of their coat) than the playstyle itself, and I don't know enough about Elphelt to accurately judge, but I'm not sure a rework on that level was needed to bring her power level down.

Then there's Johnny, who IIRC gets reworked a lot, with the iaido stuff being the only constant across the entire series.

Other series don't really change characters this much, and especially don't change this many characters at once (Street Fighter 6 comes close, but it mostly adds to existing kits rather than specifically changing them to do something else, and reworks are usually reserved for character replacements). Characters that are reworked tend to be those that didn't really land, skipped one or more games because of it, and are being added back as a surprise.

 

[Pupp135]

This character is controversial in the speculation scene, but I had thought about a what if scenario regarding Sheik last night as this scenario may have our perception of Sheik‘s likelihood for SSB6 change based on the current scenario and this one below.

If Sheik was added as a standalone character in Melee (i.e. Zelda was excluded but not Sheik), how would her priority going into Brawl and For be affected as she was tied to Zelda in Brawl and originally intended to be tied to Zelda in For?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This character is controversial in the speculation scene, but I had thought about a what if scenario regarding Sheik last night as this scenario may have our perception of Sheik‘s likelihood for SSB6 change based on the current scenario and this one below.

If Sheik was added as a standalone character in Melee (i.e. Zelda was excluded but not Sheik), how would her priority going into Brawl and For be affected as she was tied to Zelda in Brawl and originally intended to be tied to Zelda in For?

She'd still be kept because she's a popular character and it would just be a matter of asking for a new artwork design. She's always been a fun character to use. It's not just a tier list thing. Ninjas are cool. She's satisfying to play with, and has cool techniques. Zelda's existence isn't why she's popular to begin with.

Zelda might still be added at some point, though. If they were to find a really good moveset concept for her by that point. 4 was the first time an easy Down B option was available, but it's not like they couldn't have found something plausible in the franchise at that point. Whether it borrowed from Link or not. If TP was her first design, she may reference her using a Rapier in some way(could even relate to a Down B move), but her moveset might be... fairly different(unless they stuck with an OOT-based design).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as Min Min's arm intangibility goes, I think it's because they're being treated like projectiles from a design standpoint. Projectile's main strength is that they contest space with extreme safety since they aren't anywhere near the character's hitboxes, so without the intangibility, Punch would be considerably weaker since you can whiff punish the move. They also aren't actual projectiles since if they were, reflectors would nullify almost her entire neutral.

I honestly don't know what removing the tangibility from Punch would do to Min Min, but I have a feeling there's a fundamental reason as to why it's there.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Elphelt were basically turned into new characters, and I'm not entirely certain as to why

I can think of a few reasons

 

[Oracle Link]

Videospiel-Man for Smash...

No this is about something diffrent recently a person was intrigued by me making a comic! So yeah it might be that most here are completly unaware!
Not only was i told its good its also getting pretty frequent releases now! Specifically every 15 days! So i will link you to the Videospiel-Man thread!
I hope i see you there!

THE VIDEOSPIEL-MAN COMIC/WEBSITE | Smashboards

 

[Noipoi]

Man slow thread recently, huh?

Suppose that makes sense. There’s absolutely nothing to talk about in regards to a new Smash, and not much to talk about when it comes to Nintendo in general. At least for now.

 

[Louie G.]

If Sheik was added as a standalone character in Melee (i.e. Zelda was excluded but not Sheik), how would her priority going into Brawl and For be affected as she was tied to Zelda in Brawl and originally intended to be tied to Zelda in For?

I think some version of Zelda would always be high priority. So if Sheik was prioritized over Princess Zelda for Melee, I think one of two things would happen in the future. Sheik returns and new iterations of Zelda, like Tetra or a version based on Twilight Princess, join alongside them... or one of those more contemporary versions of the character replaces them. The former seems more likely based on the trend at the time, seeing how we rarely swapped out fully unique characters wholesale but sometimes new content would push them to lower priority.

If Zelda or Tetra were added to Brawl, would Sheik become lower priority? Maybe by a little bit, but they did intend on every unique Melee vet returning in the first place. I'm not sure Sheik would suddenly switch places with Mewtwo or anything, assuming nothing else about these games changed, so I think it's more likely than not that Sheik would stick around as a legacy character not unlike they already are. I suppose there's a chance they straight up opt to make Sheik the definitive version of the character in Smash too, but I think there would be some demand to add Princess Zelda as well.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How would you rebuild Min Min to be more fun?

Balance the damn range. She gatekeeps a lot of the cast. Her 60% stage length ARMS also shouldn't out prioritize everything.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Balance the damn range. She gatekeeps a lot of the cast. Her 60% stage length ARMS also shouldn't out prioritize everything.

If they ever introduce projectile intangibility as a fairly well distributed mechanic, I would consider looking into making things like Gun and Punch into pseudo projectiles where moves like Tatsumaki Senpukyaku* could go through them, but reflectors still wouldn't reflect them.

*The move doesn't have this property in Smash (since it doesn't exist), it just has had it in Street Fighter.

 

[Laniv]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

 

[fogbadge]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

link?

 

[Noipoi]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

Morton. Easy.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

From my experience online, I feel like the characters I see the most are Ganondorf, Ness, Lucina, Joker, Pyra Mythra and Sora. If you add casual that doesn't play online, I'm assuming Mario, Kirby and Sonic are most likely up there.

 

[Perkilator]

Del just shared his Jigglypuff overhaul

 

[Pupp135]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

When I play online tourneys, I feel like Kirby, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, and Little Mac feel common. I did see a few K. Rools and Sephiroths recently, and I think they’re some of the more common ones. I think Donkey Kong may also be pretty common

 

[Wonder Smash]

Man slow thread recently, huh?

Suppose that makes sense. There’s absolutely nothing to talk about in regards to a new Smash, and not much to talk about when it comes to Nintendo in general. At least for now.

Not sure about other people but I still go to the 40th Anniversary Famicom website:

ファミコン40周年キャンペーンサイト | 任天堂

「ファミリーコンピュータ（ファミコン）」の発売から今年で40年。当時の思い出を振り返る、ファミコン40周年キャンペーンサイトです。

www.nintendo.com

Their software history page is almost done too:

任天堂ソフト一覧 | ファミコン40周年キャンペーンサイト | 任天堂

任天堂から発売したファミリーコンピュータ／ディスクシステムのソフト一覧です。

www.nintendo.com

I wish they also had a page for third-party games, though.

(This may not be Smash related but it's still Nintendo related. It's fun exploring what is obviously a history of Nintendo, much like the Smash Bros series itself.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

Incineroar. Source: My most used character.

Which of course means that the least used character is Zero Suit Samus.

Sciens

 

[Guynamednelson]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

I've heard some sources say it's either the Marios or the Links, depending on the region. That applies to all Smash games.

 

[Gengar84]

So I just bought River City Girls 1&2 this past Friday and my brother and I have spent all day playing it today. The game is a ton of fun but a little glitchy at times. I’m not sure if that’s because we imported the Japanese version since it was like a quarter of the price as the English version for some reason.

Anyways, I know that Kunio and Ricky make more sense to be the Smash reps but I’m really liking Misako. She’s just got really funny dialogue and I love her mannerisms. She reminds me a lot of Ryuko Matoi from Kill-la-Kill. The movesets in that game also translate almost perfectly to Smash with directional inputs for smash attacks and specials as well as a neutral A combo. The only thing really missing is the tilts. I also really like Marian’s design in the second game but we haven’t gotten to playing it yet so I can’t speak to whether her personality is as fun as Misako’s.

Heres a question for anyone familiar with River City: Why are Abobo and Marian in the game? I remember them as a Double Dragon characters. Are the two franchises related in some way that I’m not aware of? Is it just because they’re both owned by ArcSystem Works and they’re just cameos?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Not sure about other people but I still go to the 40th Anniversary Famicom website:

ファミコン40周年キャンペーンサイト | 任天堂

「ファミリーコンピュータ（ファミコン）」の発売から今年で40年。当時の思い出を振り返る、ファミコン40周年キャンペーンサイトです。

www.nintendo.com

Their software history page is almost done too:

任天堂ソフト一覧 | ファミコン40周年キャンペーンサイト | 任天堂

任天堂から発売したファミリーコンピュータ／ディスクシステムのソフト一覧です。

www.nintendo.com

I wish they also had a page for third-party games, though.

(This may not be Smash related but it's still Nintendo related. It's fun exploring what is obviously a history of Nintendo, much like the Smash Bros series itself.)

What games should they add after 1993 and 1994? Third Party?

 

[smashkirby]

Thank you. I did put Roy in the downloadable veterans category for a reason, so at the very least the blow would be a bit softened there.
I think having the different Pikmin protagonists be alts of each other would be a natural fit, mainly since the Japanese naming for the character in Smash puts the Pikmin before their commander, which fits with how Pikmin's gameplay has always been more about what kinds of Pikmin you control more than who specifically is the one controlling them. I know people have suggested Oatchi as a second Pikmin character, but to be honest I've always seen that character to be Assist Trophy material. I feel they're currently my personal "just because you try hard doesn't mean you'll make it into the battle" character, if that makes sense.

I do appreciate you bringing back Roy somehow. I hate to admit it, but part of why I'm a bit bummed about no Chrom is... well, after the absolute clowning that Smash gave him over getting passed up for Robin in Smash 4, I just feel like he should at least stick around for 1-2 more Smash games (following Ultimate). Of course, part of this is also because I genuinely wanted him in Smash 4, so...

As for the Pikmin characters, it kind of bums me out sometimes to think about how Olimar and the 'captain' characters are THAT much of an afterthought. As for Oatchi... I don't know, I see him being Smash's first 'mount' character in a way, with Pom/Lisa and the Pikmin riding on him.

Well, depending on what you think about Duck Hunt, I guess.

 

[DKing]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

Mighty Ganondorf

 

[HyperSomari64]

Mighty Ganondorf

Like WayForward's MIghty series? TerryToons' Mighty Mouse? or just Ganon no. 9 (with all and pizza explosions)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do appreciate you bringing back Roy somehow. I hate to admit it, but part of why I'm a bit bummed about no Chrom is... well, after the absolute clowning that Smash gave him over getting passed up for Robin in Smash 4, I just feel like he should at least stick around for 1-2 more Smash games (following Ultimate). Of course, part of this is also because I genuinely wanted him in Smash 4, so...

As for the Pikmin characters, it kind of bums me out sometimes to think about how Olimar and the 'captain' characters are THAT much of an afterthought. As for Oatchi... I don't know, I see him being Smash's first 'mount' character in a way, with Pom/Lisa and the Pikmin riding on him.

Well, depending on what you think about Duck Hunt, I guess.

I wouldn't say they're an afterthought so much as the main thing is the Pikmin first. It's clear that the personality of Olimar was designed to be simple, sure, but it matches the gameplay of the franchise well. The mascots take center gameplay-wise, and the Captain is the key leader of them.

It's just that by that point, the Captains weren't that much different, but we knew Alph was considered to be separated. It's just, well, Pikmin are hard to program in the first place, compared to the other quick clones. It makes sense why he didn't make it into 4 as separate. By Ultimate, Pikmin is a dormant series. It being lower priority is understandable(and being Pikmin are also a key part of the moveset, having a separate character would make a lot more sense if there's more unique Pikmin to make it stand out. There also wasn't a ton of other Pikmin who stand out to justify a split. Pikmin 4 has fixed that better). It would also help if Olimar and Alph got better emotions than the current games show, but as of now, it works fine if multiple Captains are alts. But solely under that condition.

 

[DKing]

Like WayForward's MIghty series? TerryToons' Mighty Mouse? or just Ganon no. 9 (with all and pizza explosions)

Wait you find a lot of references some I didn't even think of.
I was mostly thinking about Ganondorf being the best character in smash,a cheat code when use correctly the god of smash bros(as a joke).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Ganon no. 9 (with all and pizza explosions)

You dare bring light into my lair? I will make you cry like an anime fan on prom night!

 

[DarthEnderX]

Not sure about other people but I still go to the 40th Anniversary Famicom website:

Still love that image!

 

[Wonder Smash]

What games should they add after 1993 and 1994? Third Party?

Wasn't 1994 the last year of the console?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Wasn't 1994 the last year of the console?

Yeah, and Hudson Soft gave it a farewell with the fourth Adventure Island game

 

[DKing]

Yeah, and Hudson Soft gave it a farewell with the fourth Adventure Island game

I m still sad Hudson soft doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Sucumbio]

So, uh...

Who do you think are the most played characters in the game?

I see link a lot and all variants but TL the least and bout the same adult and YL. Zelda characters in general seems to edge out Mario characters and strangely enough FE and Pokemon are distant 3rds

 

[Wonder Smash]

Still love that image!

View attachment 391766

Me too. I can't help but to look at it sometimes.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I m still sad Hudson soft doesn't exist anymore.

After Konami absorbed them, it was no longer the same.
Wake me up until they announce Bloody Roar pachinko or medal game or waifu-ficated arcade game

 

[smashkirby]

I wouldn't say they're an afterthought so much as the main thing is the Pikmin first. It's clear that the personality of Olimar was designed to be simple, sure, but it matches the gameplay of the franchise well. The mascots take center gameplay-wise, and the Captain is the key leader of them.

It's just that by that point, the Captains weren't that much different, but we knew Alph was considered to be separated. It's just, well, Pikmin are hard to program in the first place, compared to the other quick clones. It makes sense why he didn't make it into 4 as separate. By Ultimate, Pikmin is a dormant series. It being lower priority is understandable(and being Pikmin are also a key part of the moveset, having a separate character would make a lot more sense if there's more unique Pikmin to make it stand out. There also wasn't a ton of other Pikmin who stand out to justify a split. Pikmin 4 has fixed that better). It would also help if Olimar and Alph got better emotions than the current games show, but as of now, it works fine if multiple Captains are alts. But solely under that condition.

All of these things really do make me wonder if Sakurai might give Pikmin another look-see, come next Smash. FWIW, I wonder if Smash could do what PMEX Remix did with Alph, and have him use Rock Pikmin exclusively...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

All of these things really do make me wonder if Sakurai might give Pikmin another look-see, come next Smash. FWIW, I wonder if Smash could do what PMEX Remix did with Alph, and have him use Rock Pikmin exclusively...

While an interesting idea, my guess is that it would eliminate what makes Pikmin interesting, the fact you have a variety for puzzles. But him using new Pikmin(Rock and others later introduced, even Bulbmin) would heavily make him his own thing.

I doubt Alph would've only used Rock Pikmin in the first place. That requires a lot more work to balance(due to now having a very specific heavyweight only Pikmin) it out from Olimar, but having Purple Pikmin replaced by Rock Pikmin instead would only change a small part of the moveset, but add new layers as the way the niche works is changed up. It wouldn't be as much as Lucina's change either, but she also didn't have majorly changed animations to make it work. Just a removal of the Tipper mechanic(which is not a simple change either though).

Remember how you could get exclusively Purple Pikmin with Olimar in Home-Run Contest? This entirely makes it a specific focus on power attacks, with no other possible strategy(or resistances and weaknesses, respectively). So while it obviously wouldn't be as notable as Lucina is(who before Chrom and Ken, was the most changed up in terms of what is considered an Echo. Chrom is only slightly more different, and Ken tops the charts), it would still change up the tactics. Besides that, it would adhere more to the simplicity of a last minute clone with the resources given.

The real question is why the Rock Pikmin were scrapped. It could be because of a new model, or because of what niche it would easily have from Purple Pikmin, or no clear ideas on how to really separate Alph but still have an easy time making a fun moveset that doesn't take way too long. And it has to be balanced against the original(which means they're going to share a huge amount of animations). The other thing is, Pikmin & Captain is the Character. That means each Pikmin is also important. So while this can still work as Rock Pikmin & Alph, it's just that it's too different from the original for the intention. So it'd make more sense if only one Pikmin was changed out, making balance easier. But yeah, it's too bad nothing went anywhere. That could've been a fun difference.

 

[AEMehr]

Second is to make her arms vulnerable when she tosses them out, instead of allowing her to get away with everything she does for free.

Attack the ARMS(Gloves) on incoming. You'll be able get in just fine as a decent amount of characters.