Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[superprincess]

The writers themselves disagree with your assessment of her character. Don't like it, take it up with them.

I see you edited your post after I replied to it. Now, do tell me, what's my "assessment" of movie Peach? No offense but you really seem to be replying to some pre conceived notions you made up in your own head, instead of anything that I actually said... because I never "assessed" movie Peach's character.

Also, drop your source on the writers admitting they made her a "generic girlboss" as you said? Because I very much doubt they'd say that.

I propose we make Princess Eclair canon and direct our frustration towards her instead.

We don't need to make up a scapegoat to hate on.

Daisy is right there.
obviously joking she's my second favorite game character of all time

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm late, but Daisy and Dark Samus not using some of Peach and Samus' respective Smash 4 custom specials remains absolutely ludicrous to me. Right there was a completely free way to give them some sauce, no new ideas required.

"Oh, but it wouldn't make sense!" Sure, but would it make any less sense than them being as they are now?

I adore clones in fighting games/whatever Smash is, because their derivative and therefore low-risk nature allows for new, unorthodox and interesting playstyles to emerge that couldn't in any other context. Dr. Mario is my favorite Smash character of all time largely because of how this design process led him to exist as a unique archetype despite him being derivative, having a combination of traits unheard of for a character of his versatility.

But when you don't even change anything, then what's the point? I understand their differing animations, and therefore hurtboxes, kept them from being costumes, but if them being costumes is off the table, why not do even as little as tweaking some attribute numbers? Even that can create a wildly different feel for the character and therefore make their inclusion worthwhile.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

At the bare minimum Dark Samus had electrical moves instead of other elements. Which is nice, though not enough. It's barely better than Richter's tiny difference. And Daisy even got it worse.

But yeah, at least two of the Echoes had very easy potential differences that could be ported over. Dark Pit as well, and even Lucina(though Lucina doesn't need it as she plays quite differently in practice).

 

[superprincess]

I'm late, but Daisy and Dark Samus not using some of Peach and Samus' respective Smash 4 custom specials remains absolutely ludicrous to me. Right there was a completely free way to give them some sauce, no new ideas required.

"Oh, but it wouldn't make sense!" Sure, but would it make any less sense than them being as they are now?

I adore clones in fighting games/whatever Smash is, because their derivative and therefore low-risk nature allows for new, unorthodox and interesting playstyles to emerge that couldn't in any other context. But when you don't even change anything, then what's the point? I understand their differing animations, and therefore hurtboxes, kept them from being costumes, but if them being costumes is on the table, why not do even as little as tweaking some attribute numbers? Even that can create a wildly different feel for the character.

I feel like people would be much more comfortable with 1:1 Daisy and Dark Samus if they realized those are literally glorified palette swaps. Not in the Lucina sense, where she started out as a Marth costume and gained some differences. Daisy and Dark Samus literally were color swaps that were split off due to fan demand. Them being in Smash was just a way to appease the people who would pick Peach color 2 and Samus color 8 to pretend they were playing as Daisy/Dark Samus. It's not like they were developed as costumes but then some differences came up; their inclusions are literally an evolution of being a palette swap.

Having differences was never in the cards for those characters, at least for Ultimate, so there's no "missed opportunities" to speak of. Maybe they'll be distinguished in Smash 6, which is a conversation worth having.

 

[Perkilator]

I'm late, but Daisy and Dark Samus not using some of Peach and Samus' respective Smash 4 custom specials remains absolutely ludicrous to me. Right there was a completely free way to give them some sauce, no new ideas required.

"Oh, but it wouldn't make sense!" Sure, but would it make any less sense than them being as they are now?

I adore clones in fighting games/whatever Smash is, because their derivative and therefore low-risk nature allows for new, unorthodox and interesting playstyles to emerge that couldn't in any other context. Dr. Mario is my favorite Smash character of all time largely because of how this design process led him to exist as a unique archetype despite him being derivative.

But when you don't even change anything, then what's the point? I understand their differing animations, and therefore hurtboxes, kept them from being costumes, but if them being costumes is off the table, why not do even as little as tweaking some attribute numbers? Even that can create a wildly different feel for the character and therefore make their inclusion worthwhile.

Lucina. too; there are plenty of custom Marth specials that she even uses in Sm4sh that would benefit her beginner-friendly playstyle.

• : Dashing Assault
• : Effortless Blade
• : Dolphin Jump
• : Easy Counter

 

[Cheese&Chips]

Meh whatever

 

[Momotsuki]

Lucina. too; there are plenty of custom Marth specials that she even uses in Sm4sh that would benefit her beginner-friendly playstyle.

• : Dashing Assault
• : Effortless Blade
• : Dolphin Jump
• : Easy Counter

Lucina's difference, while singular, is at least significant enough to considerably change how she approaches the game. That, and I generally think Smash should keep changes made to veterans minor. Changing them over time is fine, but overhauls like this should be avoided, generally speaking. And it seems like the game's designers agree with me on this. Even if a character being the way they are in the first place was a mistake, it's better to avoid alienating their existing players.

With the two newcomer identechos though, it's frankly inexcusable. And by my own words above, it's at this point too late to meaningfully address, at least all at once; the Luigi approach of adjusting them bit by bit over installments could work.

 

[Noipoi]

I just think movie Peach's voice should be a smidgen higher pitched

 

[Arcanir]

I'm late, but Daisy and Dark Samus not using some of Peach and Samus' respective Smash 4 custom specials remains absolutely ludicrous to me. Right there was a completely free way to give them some sauce, no new ideas required.

There's probably two reasons that didn't happen. The first is that Echoes are meant to be easy clones they can slot in with limited time and resources, and balancing is a major component of how long it takes for a character to be developed. With the Echoes they just had to balance them against their base character, not against the entire cast, and customs would probably throw that off. The second is that those custom moves were infamously poorly balanced and could either be so terrible that they weren't worth using, or so powerful that they could warp a match around them. To give the Echoes those moves they'd have to rebalance them as otherwise you risk saddling them with terrible moves that they never touch, or powerful moves that risk breaking the game over their knee, and it probably wasn't feasible with what they had at the time of the implementation.

 

[superprincess]

Given that you seem to have dedicated your entire online identity to one fictional character, I apologise for not anticipating that you'd get offended by someone insulting your waifu.

I frankly don't care about anything you said. So I'll focus on this.

First of all, "entire online identity"... sir this is SmashBoards, a site about a Nintendo game. So I decided to theme it around my favorite Nintendo character. Totally normal. Of course my actual social networks aren't Peach-themed.

And "waifu"? I thought we left this word in 2015. Firstly I'm a straight woman so this doesn't work on me at all. Secondly I don't sexualize fictional characters and it's so disgusting that you'd jump to this as a retaliation. Do you think people can't like female characters if they aren't sexually interested in them? It only shows how You view female video game characters... and that's creepy and sad :/

Moving on ♡

This whole conversation got me thinking, do you guys think the Mario Movie will have any sort of impact on the next Smash Bros? The Pokémon movies sure did.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I highly doubt Funky's ever happening without being an Echo of DK. Which is fine by me - give him Squirtle's up B but he rides a surfboard for it and he's good to go! Plus, there would always be the possibility of him getting further differentiated down the line.

Which leads me to something that just occurred to me: the dev team didn't further differentiate then-recent Echoes like Lucina and Dark Pit for Ultimate, likely due to time constraints. Hopefully, if we get a longer development time and they're not doing EiH, we'll see more differences come up for the Echo Fighters in the next game :3

 

[Momotsuki]

There's probably two reasons that didn't happen. The first is that Echoes are meant to be easy clones they can slot in with limited time and resources, and we know balancing is a major component of how long it takes for a character to be developed. With the Echoes they just had to balance them against their base character, not against the entire cast, and customs would probably throw that off. The second is that those custom moves were infamously poorly balanced, they were either so terrible that they weren't worth using, or so powerful that they could warp a match around them. To give the Echoes those moves they'd have to rebalance them as otherwise you risk saddling them with terrible moves that they never touch, or powerful moves that risk breaking the game over their knee.

I still play Smash 4 - been playing it more often than other Smash games as of late - and while there are definitely some stinkers as well as some monsters in the array of custom specials, I don't think Peach's or Samus' were that problematic. You're probably thinking of just a few of the particularly (and rightfully) infamous ones like the Kong Cyclone and the Timber Counter/"tripping sapling."

The horrific Kong Cyclone, if anyone is interested: (Language warning)

BAN DONKEY KONG'S UP-B!!! - Smash Wii U

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www.youtube.com

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As I said earlier, better to report and move on.

And yeah, that's true about the amount of time given. It does suck they couldn't do a tad more with some of them. If the game had more time, they'd be fleshed out enough to give a few differences, probably. Wouldn't have done much beyond that. As much as it would be great to have any of the Modes base game instead of DLC, anyway.

 

[dream1ng]

The characterizations throughout the Mario movie are pretty sub-par, if you ask me, because they spent almost no time bothering to flesh the characters out with depth rather than move on to the next setpiece. Regardless of how faithful or not they were to the source material, they barely seized the opportunity a narrative-driven movie (rather than gameplay-driven game) would provide to actually give these characters much depth.

They all feel pretty tropey and surface-level in their depictions to me. Including Peach. Her personality is different than in the games but no less stereotypical of a current female hero. I wouldn't say hers stood out as particularly two dimensional, but only because most of the cast suffered from that problem.

The only one who I think escaped pretty basic characterization is Bowser. In part due to Jack Black's performance, but mostly due to actually being given scenes that existed largely just to showcase his personality. Which is probably more a result of needing to cut back to him a certain amount of times despite his plotline being far less busy than Mario & Peach's, meaning they'd have to fill it with something else.

 

[Arcanir]

I still play Smash 4 - been playing it more often than other Smash games as of late - and while there are definitely some stinkers as well as some monsters in the array of custom specials, I don't think Peach's or Samus' were that problematic. You're probably thinking of just a few of the particularly (and rightfully) infamous ones like the Kong Cyclone and the Timber Counter/"tripping sapling."

It's not just about the extreme examples like the ones you mentioned, there are many custom moves that just... weren't worth using over their original counterpart and many ended up using the originals, and both of those characters had those weaker options. If Dark Samus or Daisy were saddled with those moves they'd be outright inferior unless they were rebalanced, and again they may not have had enough time and resources for that to fix them up.

The customs are not a simple copy paste job, they're still unique moves from their original counterpart that would still need to be balanced. They still would require work, and the work they require may've been too much, especially considering the customs had many issues in their balancing to begin with.

 

[CannonStreak]

Just want to say; even if Peach’s personality in the Mario movie was stereotypical, it is better than her being a damsel in distress and needing someone to rescue her, if you know what I mean.

 

[Laniv]

If nothing else, the Peach Bomber custom move that put a flower on the opponent's head should have been a slam dunk for Daisy.

This whole conversation got me thinking, do you guys think the Mario Movie will have any sort of impact on the next Smash Bros? The Pokémon movies sure did.

Hopefully giving Toad a more major role

 

[superprincess]

If nothing else, the Peach Bomber custom move that put a flower on the opponent's head should have been a slam dunk for Daisy.




Hopefully giving Toad a more major role

The flower effect is pretty OP so they'd have to greatly nerf the reach/frame data of Daisy Bomber, which is supposed to be a pretty versatile move in the Peach kit... so no! Either make something original or don bother at all.

Agreed on Toad hopefully being more than a bodyguard in Smash 6. At least an Assist Trophy please.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm probably one of the few that's satisfied with the way the Mario characters were portrayed in the movie; more than what we see in the games but not to the point that they're too different from the games.

 

[Laniv]

The flower effect is pretty OP so they'd have to greatly nerf the reach/frame data of Daisy Bomber, which is supposed to be a pretty versatile move in the Peach kit... so no! Either make something original or don bother at all.

Agreed on Toad hopefully being more than a bodyguard in Smash 6. At least an Assist Trophy please.

Simply reduce the damage on the initial hit, allowing the flower to make up the rest

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Just for a refresher:

Spoiler: Peach

• Sleepy Toad: Puts grounded opponents to sleep, and pushes aerial ones.
• Grumpy Toad: Turns the counterattack into a regular attack.
• Flower Bomber: Shorter travel distance, but inflicts flower. Has more ending lag, but less startup lag.
• Flying Peach Bomber: Goes diagonally upward, and does more damage, but has more a lot of end-lag when used midair.
• Parasol High Jump: No hitbox, and you don't float downward, but higher recovery.
• Light Parasol: Low initial recovery, but she gains height every time she opens her parasol. Floating ends after a bit.
• Light Veggie: Turnips are plucked faster, but deal less damage. They also travel slower.
• Heavy Veggie: Turnips are plucked absurdly slowly and don't go hardly anywhere, but deal a good chunk of damage.

Of these, Flower Bomber could be an interesting, but I'm not sure how it would shake out in terms of power in comparison to Peach Bomber. I dunno if Light Veggie would be a buff or a nerf, and Light Parasol is definitely...something.

The rest are kinda garbo.

Spoiler: Lucina

• Storm Thrust: W I N D B O X
• Dashing Assault: Deals less damage, but becomes a burst movement option.
• Effortless Blade: Makes the rekka easier to execute, but removes options.
• Heavy Blade: The whole thing does more damage and also no longer combos.
• Crescent Slash: Dolphin Slash, but horrizontal.
• Dolphin Jump: Goes higher, but lacks hitbox.
• Easy Counter: Longer counter state, but less damage. Also has, like, all the end lag.
• Iai Counter: Shorter counter state, but she dashes forward, and launches opponents behind her with a higher damage multiplier.

Storm Thrust would be absolutely broken, especially if they let you angle it. Effortless Blade is pointless since Dancing Blade isn't even hard anymore. Heavy Blade doesn't really function. Dolphin Jump is just boring. Easy Counter ain't worth the end lag.

Dashing Assault, and Iai Counter could be interesting though. Crescent Slash could be as well if they made it a combo ender or something, but I think she'd need another, more vertical recovery move if they gave it to her.



That being said, I'm not sure I vibe with replaceing the existing moves these characters have with these specials specifically.

 

[chocolatejr9]

This whole conversation got me thinking, do you guys think the Mario Movie will have any sort of impact on the next Smash Bros? The Pokémon movies sure did.

I'd be fine with Foreman Spike being added, just saying.

 

[superprincess]

Simply reduce the damage on the initial hit, allowing the flower to make up the rest

So it's a worse Peach Bomber; considering knockback scales with damage, and the damage on this attack would be gradual, she wouldn't be able to kill as early.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Peach in the Mario games // Peach in Smash
View attachment 387887

On a serious talk, why does Peach looks uncannily off in Smash?

They made it look way worse and unappealing, it’s even more uncanny now.

 

[dream1ng]

It's not that the Pokemon movies have a major impact on Smash, it's that TPC has an edict of which Pokemon they're going to push at any given time and they would enforce that edict on the people who make the movie and Smash alike. The movie and Smash are different branches from a joint root.

It's not like the scriptwriter was like "I'd really like to feature Lucario", TPC just tells them which Pokemon to center their movie around, just like they tell Sakurai which Pokemon he can choose from.

The movies or anime may just be a heads up to signify who TPC is pushing, it's TPC who will impact Smash. I mean, usually around the time the Pokemon is being chosen, there's a movie that features one of later-stage mythical Pokemon for that gen. For those that were around during early Smash 4 spec, that's how Genesect had its moment.

But that's never resulted in that Pokemon being added. Because TPC wanted Sakurai to pick a final form starter for Gen 6. And that's keeping in mind that was at such an early point in time, when there was only artwork available for Sakurai, that they probably didn't even have a finalized plan for how, which and where those final forms were going to manifest in the movies/anime. They just knew, as the starters, they would be under heavy promotion.

 

[superprincess]

It's not that the Pokemon movies have a major impact on Smash, it's that TPC has an edict of which Pokemon they're going to push at any given time and they would enforce that edict on the people who make the movie and Smash alike. The movie and Smash are different branches from a joint root.

It's not like the scriptwriter was like "I'd really like to feature Lucario", TPC just tells them which Pokemon to center their movie around, just like they tell Sakurai which Pokemon he can choose from.

The movies or anime may just be a heads up to signify who TPC is pushing, it's TPC who will impact Smash. I mean, usually around the time the Pokemon is being chosen, there's a movie that features one of later-stage mythical Pokemon for that gen. For those that were around during early Smash 4 spec, that's how Genesect had its moment.

But that's never resulted in that Pokemon being added. Because TPC wanted Sakurai to pick a final form starter for Gen 6. And that's keeping in mind that was at such an early point in time, when there was only artwork available for Sakurai, that they probably didn't even have a finalized plan for how, which and where those final forms were going to manifest in the movies/anime. They just knew, as the starters, they would be under heavy promotion.

Okay. The portrayal of the characters themselves is still very much inspired by the movies. For example Mewtwo may have gotten in without the movie but his voice, personality and moveset (kinda) are all overtly reminiscent of his movie portrayal.

 

[Jave]

Okay. The portrayal of the characters themselves is still very much inspired by the movies. For example Mewtwo may have gotten in without the movie but his voice, personality and moveset (kinda) are all overtly reminiscent of his movie portrayal.

I believe the reason the Pokemon characters generally resemble their anime/movie counterparts is because those were the most popular versions of the characters when they debuted in Smash and the ones that translated better to games that used full motion models and voice acting. Not to mention the versions TPC (back then Game Freak/Creatures) was likely pushing for. It made sense for Mewtwo and Lucario to resemble their movie versions back when they debuted in Smash.

The Mario characters have established versions with specific designs and voices that have already been adapted and maintained for the entirety of the Smash series. I don't see the Mario Movie changing this. They'll likely keep using the Smash models with slight updates like they do every game. The only major change I expect is recording new lines for the Mario cast to match the new VAs most of the characters got with SMB Wonder.

 

[dream1ng]

Okay. The portrayal of the characters themselves is still very much inspired by the movies. For example Mewtwo may have gotten in without the movie but his voice, personality and moveset (kinda) are all overtly reminiscent of his movie portrayal.

Well given their voices would've either been that or some 8-bit screech, I guess that makes sense.

Though it's not like when Meowth shows up in Smash he Brooklyns all over the place.

But if that's the line we're drawing then no, I kinda doubt Jack Black, Anya Taylor-Joy, Charlie Day, Seth Rogen and Chris Pratt, despite how cool he is, are gonna jump on board. I doubt Bowser or DK even start talking at all. I also doubt any of them get their movie designs. Though it seems like the game designs are shifting slightly to be more movie-like, so in that indirect sense, that would be an influence.

Though one crucial difference is the Pokemon movies constantly feature new mons, while the Mario movie mostly just featured the central aspects of the Mario universe, which are things we already have in Smash. I mean there was stuff like Spike and Cranky Kong, but they weren't major. So it may get some references, I just don't think anything substantial will come of it. Including Toad becoming playable.

 

[Quillion]

This whole conversation got me thinking, do you guys think the Mario Movie will have any sort of impact on the next Smash Bros?

Any "will X have any impact on the next Smash" speculation inevitably ends up "no".

It may sound like a shame at times, but at least it prevents the series from suffering Sonic-level inconsistency with... well anything.

Though I still admit that the Zelda team pushing for their own portrayals of Ganondorf and Zelda that are quite divergent from what Smash is sticking with is alienating in its own right to Zelda fans.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

do you guys think the Mario Movie will have any sort of impact on the next Smash Bros?

Absolutely.

We already have the movie affecting Mario games with Peach Showtime getting some animation updates to match the movie more. We aren't going to get direct references and Jack Black isn't going to voice game Bowser anytime soon, but the Mario brand is definitely going to be affected by the movies.

 

[fogbadge]

Though I still admit that the Zelda team pushing for their own portrayals of Ganondorf and Zelda that are quite divergent from what Smash is sticking with is alienating in its own right to Zelda fans.

are you actually implying that the people in charge of the story are wrong for doing what they want with their characters?

 

[Laniv]

So it's a worse Peach Bomber; considering knockback scales with damage, and the damage on this attack would be gradual, she wouldn't be able to kill as early.

Who says she has to use it as a kill move? Maybe the flower can be used in conjunction with her combo game, allowing her to rack up even more damage

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What I think would be neat for Daisy is if they removed her float mechanic entirely, instead giving her the ability to refresh her double jump by hitting opponents midair. I know this would cause balance issues if nothing else changed since she was built around float mechanics, but I think it could be fun.

 

[Oracle Link]

BTW whats your opinion on the alts scorpion would have should he join im personally for these:

Mortal Kombat 2 with Sub zero, Reptile and Smoke as colors/ Effects

and UMK3 with Noob saibot, Ermac and rain as alt colors

I just think both of these fit really well into smash unlike some of the more overdesigned Scorpions! Also i really dont wanna see Multiple MK Ninjas in smash because there are so many other cool designs and considering that only the classic designs are palette swaps thats the best option!
Also Toasty could work as a final Smash just remove the blood curdling scream and maybe make cartoony/ Weird Skeletons depending on the character and bam Toasty could work! (i mean its shown up in multiple more kid friendly Mk adaptations unlike headrip)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

BTW whats your opinion on the alts scorpion would have should he join im personally for these:

I don't know too much about Mortal Kombat, but given Sakurai's propensity for focusing on the older stuff in a character's legacy (see: Ryu), I'd imagine they'd go for his original design as the basis of the character. Although with the newer games being on the Switch as well, I have a feeling his design from Mortal Kombat 1 would also be included unless they gave him something that wouldn't allow for that.

Also Toasty could work as a final Smash just remove the blood curdling scream and maybe make cartoony/ Weird Skeletons depending on the character and bam Toasty could work! (i mean its shown up in multiple more kid friendly Mk adaptations unlike headrip)

EDIT: I'm not sure if modeling everyone's skeletons would be all that worth it, especially since you'd also have to handle the characters that don't have them (Ex: R.O.B.). I think you could get away with just having the opponent explode like the other insta-K.O. Final Smashes.

 

[Perkilator]

What characters do you hope get a new Final Smash in the next game? Personally, I want Daisy to get a Final Smash based on the Elephant transformation from Wonder.

 

[fogbadge]

What characters do you hope get a new Final Smash in the next game? Personally, I want Daisy to get a Final Smash based on the Elephant transformation from Wonder.

off the top of my head Peach and Mario

 

[Golden Icarus]

BTW whats your opinion on the alts scorpion would have should he join im personally for these:

View attachment 387938Mortal Kombat 2 with Sub zero, Reptile and Smoke as colors/ Effects
View attachment 387939and UMK3 with Noob saibot, Ermac and rain as alt colors

I just think both of these fit really well into smash unlike some of the more overdesigned Scorpions! Also i really dont wanna see Multiple MK Ninjas in smash because there are so many other cool designs and considering that only the classic designs are palette swaps thats the best option!
Also Toasty could work as a final Smash just remove the blood curdling scream and maybe make cartoony/ Weird Skeletons depending on the character and bam Toasty could work! (i mean its shown up in multiple more kid friendly Mk adaptations unlike headrip)

I agree with using the classic designs for Scorpion and then just referencing all the other ninjas with the palettes. It’s pretty convenient that literally any primary or secondary color is a direct reference to another popular character lol

I’m not optimistic about Scorpion’s chances, but even going beyond my personal bias, MK is absolutely the next big fighting game series that ought to be added to Smash.

Obviously the thing about Mortal Kombat when compared to other fighting games is that a lot of people feel it just doesn’t fit in Smash, given its lack of presence in Japan and over the top violence. It’s just funny that both MK11 and MK1 got Switch ports, yet the last two SF, Tekken and KoF games never did.

MK might not be for good boys and girls, but it’s the only damn modern fighting game that little Timmy can play on his Nintendo Switch!

 

[BritishGuy54]

What characters do you hope get a new Final Smash in the next game? Personally, I want Daisy to get a Final Smash based on the Elephant transformation from Wonder.

I hope Sakurai will relax on spoilers and let Pyra/Mythra use Pneuma, even if it’s a special Final Smash w/ an affinity mechanic or something.

This might be controversial, but I’d be okay axing Giga Bowser in favour of a traditional Giant Bowser or Fury Bowser.

 

[Laniv]

What characters do you hope get a new Final Smash in the next game? Personally, I want Daisy to get a Final Smash based on the Elephant transformation from Wonder.

If Richter comes back I hope he gets Hydro Storm

And for a smaller change, if Link still has the Ancient Bow and Arrow, it should be an Instant KO over 100%, because that's how it works in its home game