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You're ignorantly ignoring a pattern that is still supported by the roster we have because you want to believe in a prospect that has not yet been proven to be feasible. There's no arguing about it, moving on.
Just because Nintendo and Microsoft have a solid relationship does not mean that anything is possible. Console walls are still not broken, even if they should be. Don't forget that both the NieR and Devil May Cry directors have both made statements implying a Nintendo appearance may still be a bigger boon than "just a bonus."
I don't "want to believe" anything because I don't care about Halo or Master Chief. Or most non-Nintendo-appearing characters. Hot take I know.
I'm just saying y'all are reaching hardddd to find some sort of pattern that has just been disproven. Twice. Cloud and Joker's irrelevant spinoffs that most people don't even know exist have nothing to do with their Smash inclusions, and absolutely weren't required to get them in. Keep believing they did if you want to, nobody cares about that. But don't treat your own view of the situation as fact ♡♡
You'd also think the Life Will Change, equivocally the most iconic theme of the game Joker comes from, that was played IN HIS TRAILER, would've been in, but sometimes the Smash team make weird choices. And also... like, the Theatrhythm games were super popular, so I don't know where you're getting off saying that no one cares about them.
I'm not saying the rules aren't susceptible to be broken, and I think that they absolutely should be broken. I'd welcome Playstation and Xbox characters for sure - but until they are, I think it's best to assume that they're off the table entirely.
You're also ignoring the issue of lack of Japanese appeal. Halo has never been a big thing in the East - primarily because neither has Xbox - but generally they prioritize picks that would appeal to a Japanese audience. I'd expect Dovahkiin, Ori, heck at this point honestly even Chai (if he gets a sequel) before Chief.
You're ignorantly ignoring a pattern that is still supported by the roster we have because you want to believe in a prospect that has not yet been proven to be feasible. There's no arguing about it, moving on.
Just because Nintendo and Microsoft have a solid relationship does not mean that anything is possible. Console walls are still not broken, even if they should be. Don't forget that both the NieR and Devil May Cry directors have both made statements implying a Nintendo appearance may still be a bigger boon than "just a bonus."
I'm not really ignoring it. I do agree that Japanese popularity is a major factor in whether a character makes it in. I'm just anticipating that Smash is going to broaden the range of characters to include those popular in other regions. They already started with Ultimate with Banjo and Steve. Japan is still obviously going to take precedence but I think there's plenty of room to expand beyond that.
Occam's Razor. Whether you like it or not, Joker and Cloud DID have appearances on a Nintendo system prior to arrival. So until this pattern is broken, it's best to assume that it's a steadfast rule. Nintendo gets final say on it, full stop, and again - note how every single piece of Microsoft content follows the pattern.
You're proving exactly why it shouldn't be Occam's Razor. Because do you know how many times people have assumed an unbroken pattern was a rule? Sakurai doesn't change his mind. No western third-parties. One third-party per company. Only four characters max per series. Nothing from competitors. No traditional fighting characters. Spirits can't be upgraded. No second reps from third-parties. No unique second reps from third-parties. Square won't give more than bare minimum content. No guns. No realistic guns. A third-party needs strong Nintendo association. No solo starter Pokemon. No mooks. There's always a retro spot. Costumes from the same series will come with the character, if there is one. It goes on and on.
Any time we ever got a leak that involved substantial effort in its creation, Occam's Razor would posit it correct. Cacomallow, the Rayman leak. There's a whole copypasta about how complicated the Grinch leak would've had to have been were it fake. But then it was fake. You literally had to go through the background on the mural to see that no, it didn't line up. But the simplest explanation would just be that it was true.
Conversely, Occam's Razor would eliminate any 4chan text leak. Because most are false. Which is what people did with Sora's. Which was actually true.
Plus, Occam's Razor is only going to work if people agree what the simplest explanation is and for some reason think anything other than the simplest explanation is fair game to completely rule out. But that's not Smash spec. We keep the Pepe Silvia meme on retainer.
To many the simplest explanation could be that if Joker and Cloud can show up, then the restrictions are very loose and costumes could apply.
First and third parties are not equivalent points of comparison, but I think it's funny how often everyone forgets how little of a **** Japan gave about Little Mac, easily one of the most hyped and long awaited additions from Smash 4 for us in the west. Adding a third party character and hinging on their worldwide appeal is a bit more of a risk, but I can't imagine Master Chief of all people would see diminishing results. I think we convince ourselves a little too hard that Nintendo is a self-serving Japanese company but the overseas market is just as if not more fruitful.
Lack of Japanese appeal is certainly a factor, but one that can be challenged. I wouldn't fault you for treading carefully with this in mind, I'd be hesitant to put too much stock in most AAA western characters to begin with, but it doesn't seem to be the hangup most people have with Master Chief. Since many detractors endorse Doom Slayer, who has an equal issue of less than stellar Japanese notoriety if not a worse one altogether.
To change the subject a bit since this back and forth is tiring, someone who I think is a bit overlooked that I've been thinking off and on for about a month:
From what I can see, DNF, or DFO, or whatever you wanna call it, is the 3rd highest-grossing media franchise of video game origin after Pokémon and Call of Duty. I think that might put it in consideration for the future especially with DNF Duel introducing the franchise to a wider audience, and since it's topical, DNF Duel happened to release on Switch too.
As for why Berserker specifically, my hunch comes from the fact Slayers are supposedly the most popular classes, with the subclass Berserkers being the most popular of the male Slayers. Which might explain why Berserker was one of the first characters shown off for DNF Duel.
And then there's an upcoming game that will dive into the history of the Slayer class dubbed The First Berserker: Khazan.
Yeah, he'd have to be censored quite a bit for his literal blood-based moves, but still. Can be yellowish-orange like the Korean "Under 18" version, can be black like oil, can be purple like how Carmilla's blood was censored in Ultimate and how Jedah was censored in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite, etc.
Not saying he's a guarantee, but he'd be someone I wouldn't be surprised to see show up in the next Smash's DLC.
I don't "want to believe" anything because I don't care about Halo or Master Chief. Or most non-Nintendo-appearing characters. Hot take I know.
I'm just saying y'all are reaching hardddd to find some sort of pattern that has just been disproven. Twice. Cloud and Joker's irrelevant spinoffs that most people don't even know exist have nothing to do with their Smash inclusions, and absolutely weren't required to get them in. Keep believing they did if you want to, nobody cares about that. But don't treat your own view of the situation as fact ♡♡
It has objectively not been disproven, show me solid proof of a character who has gotten in without being on a Nintendo platform. You can't. So until you can, you're in the wrong here.
You're proving exactly why it shouldn't be Occam's Razor. Because do you know how many times people have assumed an unbroken pattern was a rule? Sakurai doesn't change his mind. No western third-parties. One third-party per company. Only four characters max per series. Nothing from competitors. No traditional fighting characters. Spirits can't be upgraded. No second reps from third-parties. No unique second reps from third-parties. Square won't give more than bare minimum content. No guns. No realistic guns. A third-party needs strong Nintendo association. No solo starter Pokemon. No mooks. There's always a retro spot. Costumes from the same series will come with the character, if there is one. It goes on and on.
Any time we ever got a leak that involved substantial effort in its creation, Occam's Razor would posit it correct. Cacomallow, the Rayman leak. There's a whole copypasta about how complicated the Grinch leak would've had to have been were it fake. But then it was fake. You literally had to go through the background on the mural to see that no, it didn't line up. But the simplest explanation would just be that it was true.
Conversely, Occam's Razor would eliminate any 4chan text leak. Because most are false. Which is what people did with Sora's. Which was actually true.
Plus, Occam's Razor is only going to work if people agree what the simplest explanation is and for some reason think anything other than the simplest explanation is fair game to completely rule out. But that's not Smash spec. We keep the Pepe Silvia meme on retainer.
To many the simplest explanation could be that if Joker and Cloud can show up, then the restrictions are very loose and costumes could apply.
Most of these were never even considered as rules. In speculation, we look for patterns. When those patterns are objectively broken, then we're able to throw them out. This is one case where thus far the rule has maintained, albeit the ground is getting shaky. But until a character who is an exclusive to another platform is in the game, Mii costume or otherwise, you cannot say the pattern doesn't hold true.
No one's even considered the fact that both Cloud and Joker released around the same time as games they could feasibly promote. Final Fantasy Explorers features Cloud too.
First and third parties are not equivalent points of comparison, but I think it's funny how often everyone forgets how little of a **** Japan gave about Little Mac, easily one of the most hyped and long awaited additions from Smash 4 for us in the west. Adding a third party character and hinging on their worldwide appeal is a bit more of a risk, but I can't imagine Master Chief of all people would see diminishing results. I think we convince ourselves a little too hard that Nintendo is a self-serving Japanese company but the overseas market is just as if not more fruitful.
Lack of Japanese appeal is certainly a factor, but one that can be challenged. I wouldn't fault you for treading carefully with this in mind, I'd be hesitant to put too much stock in most AAA western characters to begin with, but it doesn't seem to be the hangup most people have with Master Chief. Since many detractors endorse Doom Slayer, who has an equal issue of less than stellar Japanese notoriety if not a worse one altogether.
Doom Slayer at least has one thing going for him beyond Nintendo connection. His game pioneered the genre. I'm sure what I'm about to say is going to piss off Halo fans but outside of multiplayer, Halo didn't really do anything crazy to further the medium.
It has objectively not been disproven, show me solid proof of a character who has gotten in without being on a Nintendo platform. You can't. So until you can, you're in the wrong here.
Most of these were never even considered as rules. In speculation, we look for patterns. When those patterns are objectively broken, then we're able to throw them out. This is one case where thus far the rule has maintained, albeit the ground is getting shaky. But until a character who is an exclusive to another platform is in the game, Mii costume or otherwise, you cannot say the pattern doesn't hold true.
No one's even considered the fact that both Cloud and Joker released around the same time as games they could feasibly promote. Final Fantasy Explorers features Cloud too.
Doom Slayer at least has one thing going for him beyond Nintendo connection. His game pioneered the genre. I'm sure what I'm about to say is going to piss off Halo fans but outside of multiplayer, Halo didn't really do anything crazy to further the medium.
DUDE, will you please stop treating your opinions as facts? They are not. If they were, it would be even harder to get the likes of Master Chief into Smash, maybe close to or at impossible. Fact is, it is not. You should not focus on the "It has not happened yet" and, with that, you should not wait for something to actually happen that either proves or disproves your claims, anyway. Seriously, though, you are making mountains out of molehills here about Master Chief and his chances.
DUDE, will you please stop treating your opinions as facts? They are not. If they were, it would be even harder to get the likes of Master Chief into Smash, maybe close to or at impossible. Fact is, it is not. You should not focus on the "It has not happened yet" and, with that, you should not wait for something to actually happen that either proves or disproves your claims, anyway. Seriously, though, you are making mountains out of molehills here about Master Chief and his chances.
It is an objective fact that every third party character in the game, AND all third party Mii costumes, have made an appearance in a game on a Nintendo console from their own franchise. You literally cannot argue this.
Until a character breaks this pattern, this pattern remains steadfast.
It is an objective fact that every third party character in the game, AND all third party Mii costumes, have made an appearance in a game on a Nintendo console from their own franchise. You literally cannot argue this.
And how does that disprove any of Master Chief's chances? Oh wait, it doesn't!
When did you get severely injured, get operated on and get turned into the world's most factual living computer? Thing is, what you are saying about Master Chief could apply to other western game characters, but that does not mean they will have a really hard time getting into Smash all the same.
Doom Slayer at least has one thing going for him beyond Nintendo connection. His game pioneered the genre. I'm sure what I'm about to say is going to piss off Halo fans but outside of multiplayer, Halo didn't really do anything crazy to further the medium.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that Master Chief is the "Cloud" of his genre, and Halo 3 fills a similar role to FF7. He didn't pioneer the genre, but he represents a landmark acheivement and stands as its most prestigious character. Meanwhile I would liken DOOM to Dragon Quest. There's a reason Halo caused such a big splash, the series was raising the bar on cinematic storytelling in video games and character driven FPS. But don't take it from me, take it from Sakurai.
Masahiro Sakurai said:
Halo 2 and Half-Life 2 were developed in foreign countries. Perhaps foreign gamers simply like to play in realistic environments but I feel like there is something else to it. I think that American gamers have a stronger feeling that they themselves are the character in the game that Japanese gamers don’t feel as strongly.
Both of these games are FPS titles which have become very popular lately. I don’t think they necessarily rose to popularity because people simply like the genre or because the United States is a gun society, but rather because FPS is a genre that lends itself to really feeling like the character in the game.
An example that comes to mind is hearing a female gamer from overseas say that she thought it was awesome that she was able to become Dante when playing Devil May Cry. Overseas developers also spend a lot of time talking about how their games are immersive and feel realistic. Even for games that are in the same genre, if one uses cel-shading and the other doesn’t, the one that feels more realistic will probably be better received. This might also be a factor for why Final Fantasy games have taken on a more movie-like feel.
I think the feeling of actually being in the game world has become very important. It might be fitting to describe it as a Hollywood movie you can play. When looking at games in the west, that seems like a fitting description.
I'm not personally pissed off at you saying that because I'm not explicitly a Halo fan, but I do think you're wrong. There was a strong movement in the early 2000s to make games more immersive and cinematic and Halo was on the forefront of that. Saying it didn't really push the medium forward feels needlessly dismissive toward these games that left such an impact in their prime.
Something to keep in mind; the character's likeness was licensed to appear on a Nintendo console. Saying this doesn't count doesn't even make any logical sense at that point. They literally licensed the character in some way to appear.
Like, the definition is highly basic. An appearance is an appearance. It doesn't matter how "strong" of a cameo you want to make it as. It doesn't need to be strong because the cameo part is the only thing that can legitimately matter. Nintendo worked with Microsoft to have Halo content appear specifically in Minecraft. This includes Master Chief's likeness. In addition, Microsoft licensed out Master Chief's design to appear in Fortnite across more than one console in general. Why? Because they don't have a problem with one of their flagship characters appearing on another console. This doesn't however mean they'd be okay with a far more major appearance, of course. Smash Bros. isn't just the likeness, but a character who may even appear in the storyline.
So yes, that could matter. Just the barrier of "no Nintendo appearances" was broken anyway. It's not a required barrier, but still. And "it hasn't happened yet" doesn't change the reality that it was never called a requirement at all. Lots of things haven't happened yet. Then they happened. Remember when Ridley wasn't playable? Or Master Hand in some way(even as a Boss, he is usable. Sure, it's a suckily short usage, but he's playable overall in some way).
The only real barrier is no characters from a non-video game franchise. We haven't had a legitimate barrier beyond that.
You know, Capybara Gaming
, trying to use facts as opinions or trying to use facts to make it look harder for a character to get into Smash is not really a good way to debate. It just makes you harder to deal with, and it makes you less sociable, for a lack of a better word. No offense.
I disagree with the guy, but it doesn't achieve anything to make it personal and attack their character or social capacity. They're welcome to believe what they want and we're welcome to disagree with it, that's what the forum space allows. So personal attacks like this are unnecessary and taint the discussion.
I disagree with the guy, but it doesn't achieve anything to make it personal and attack their character or social capacity. They're welcome to believe what they want and we're welcome to disagree with it, that's what the forum space allows. So personal attacks like this are unnecessary and taint the discussion.
Oh, I was not saying he could not believe anything, and that was no personal attack, at least it was not meant to be. I had better intentions than to attack anyone here. Trust me, attacking him was not the intention. Besides, this was more of an advice thing. I was just saying that using facts the way he used them is not always the way to do things.
Damn, Master Chief is seems to be a sensitive topic.
Honestly, i do see Capybara's point on Chief lacking any Nintendo connections to make him an outstanding pick for Smash especially compared to competition from the same company like Spyro, Crash, Skyrim etc. He's right that in the sense that everyone on the roster has had appearance on Nintendo systems. Even those who you wouldn't suspect like Joker and Cloud. So that + Weak Japan popularity, it definitely lowes his chances
but still, it's Master Chief at the end of the day. Nintendo and Microsoft has a strong relationship and latter is basically third party company anyways. Nothing stopping from MS just dropping the Halo Collection on Switch/2 for the Japanese Market and Nintendo Audiences circumventing that rule and putting him in Smash.
Smash Rules are rules until they aren't anymore. Feel like some are too rigid and predictable in their thinking when it comes to picks and choices.
The Android 21 discourse keep chugging along I guess. I just don't see how you jump through the legal hoops for her on account of some loophole technicality with regards to maintaining the brand integrity (video game characters only) for Smash. It's not just "might as well do Goku at that point" it's really just definitely Goku at that point. Not only is he the mascot of the brand, not only is he, for better and worse (I'm looking at the current wave of online Dragon Ball haters) the global ambassador of anime but he's also THE requested rulebreaker character inclusion.
I see way more marketing potential of putting Goku in Smash that I can't see how a business like Nintendo wouldn't see it either. Maybe 4th party characters never get in and that's mostly fine though a bit unfortunate for some really great potential characters but fine nonetheless. With regards to 4th party character inclusions I'd like it to a very strict case-by-case kind of thing and not something that just opens the floodgates for the likes of Shrek and company haha.
So if Dragon Ball gets to be in Smash it's Goku and only Goku. End of discussion. Nobody would cheer a minicule fraction as much for Android 21 or literally any other Dragon Ball character like they would Goku. He has the most widespread appeal to more people and he's instantly recognizable without any real attachment to his series.
The real question would be whether it'd be Kid Goku or Adult Goku. I'd prefer my concept of Kid Goku with GT characteristics though I do need to freshen up that post since it's be a long time and most the video references got nuked by Toei.
Damn, Master Chief is seems to be a sensitive topic.
Honestly, i do see Capybara's point on lacking any Nintendo connections to make outstanding pick for Smash especially compared to competition from the same company like Spyro, Crash, Skyrim etc. He's right that in the sense that everyone on the roster has had appearance on Nintendo systems. Even those who you wouldn't suspect like Joker and Cloud. So that + Weak Japan popularity, it definitely lower his chances
but still, it's Master Chief at the end of the day. Nintendo and Microsoft had strong relationship and latter is basically third party company anyways. Nothing stopping from MS just dropping the Halo Collection on Switch/2 for Japanese Market and Nintendo Audiences circumventing that rule and putting him in Smash.
Smash Rules are rules until they aren't anymore. Feel like some are too rigid and predictable in their thinking when it comes to picks and choices.
You know, Capybara Gaming
, trying to use facts as opinions or trying to use facts to make it look harder for a character to get into Smash is not really a good way to debate. It just makes you harder to deal with, and it makes you less sociable, for a lack of a better word. No offense.
And how does that disprove any of Master Chief's chances? Oh wait, it doesn't!
When did you get severely injured, get operated on and get turned into the world's most factual living computer? Thing is, what you are saying about Master Chief could apply to other western game characters, but that does not mean they will have a really hard time getting into Smash all the same.
I don't understand where you think I'm making an argument against Western characters, nor have I ever said that Master Chief has no chance. Re-read my initial post on the topic and you will see that I literally said that people are overestimating his chances.
Something to keep in mind; the character's likeness was licensed to appear on a Nintendo console. Saying this doesn't count doesn't even make any logical sense at that point. They literally licensed the character in some way to appear.
Like, the definition is highly basic. An appearance is an appearance. It doesn't matter how "strong" of a cameo you want to make it as. It doesn't need to be strong because the cameo part is the only thing that can legitimately matter. Nintendo worked with Microsoft to have Halo content appear specifically in Minecraft. This includes Master Chief's likeness. In addition, Microsoft licensed out Master Chief's design to appear in Fortnite across more than one console in general. Why? Because they don't have a problem with one of their flagship characters appearing on another console. This doesn't however mean they'd be okay with a far more major appearance, of course. Smash Bros. isn't just the likeness, but a character who may even appear in the storyline.
So yes, that could matter. Just the barrier of "no Nintendo appearances" was broken anyway. It's not a required barrier, but still. And "it hasn't happened yet" doesn't change the reality that it was never called a requirement at all. Lots of things haven't happened yet. Then they happened. Remember when Ridley wasn't playable? Or Master Hand in some way(even as a Boss, he is usable. Sure, it's a suckily short usage, but he's playable overall in some way).
The only real barrier is no characters from a non-video game franchise. We haven't had a legitimate barrier beyond that.
Until this pattern breaks, you cannot rule out that possibility. That's the point I'm trying to make.
"Microsoft licensed out Chief to appear in Fortnite"
Nintendo handles Smash's licensing, and if they want Fortnite on their platform they can't just disable the appearance of competing console character skins; they literally wanted this to allow Samus in the game.
Nintendo has final say on the roster, you cannot argue that. We like to assume that just because the occasional miracle happens all of a sudden the floodgates are opened. Cloud and Sephiroth were miracles. Joker was a miracle. Sora was the biggest miracle of all. Banjo and Steve were miracles. Eventually that miracle magic is gonna dry up, and negotiations are a LOT harder than we give it credit for. From a business perspective, Nintendo is going to want a piece of the Halo pie if he's gonna be in their game, and without a Halo game on the platform, they'd just be paying money to have him be in the game and giving free advertising to something they aren't gonna make anything off of is an objectively stupid business decision. Nintendo is not our friend, they are a business run by a bunch of old, out-of-touch farts. I agree that console wars are stupid, I think it would be great to have a world where everything releases on every platform, but I think holding on to a hint of realism is important. I'm just making that known because I think it's important to not get too carried away thinking that anything is possible.
Sora was my dream pick. We are so supremely lucky that we got him. But my new dream pick? She's super obscure. And she's 100% eligible. But I don't delude myself into believing she has a ghost of a chance because she's just not that well known. It's my realism that holds me back from speculating and believing in the possibility.
I think Chief would be a fine pick. I mean, to be honest I'd rather just have an Xbox platfighter, but I think he'd fit just fine in Smash. I'd argue both him and Slayer deserve a spot in here. I'd argue a lot of characters deserve a spot. But no matter how much we say it, Smash does skew towards an audience of Nintendo fans, and so it's in Nintendo's best interest to provide characters you can have an experience with on their turf, no matter how small or spinoff they may be.
I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to open the floodgates to gaming at large, but we have to draw a line somewhere, and it's okay to move the line as new information comes out. But I air on the side of realism, so this is where I've drawn my line. You can believe Chief has a chance - and he does have a chance - but just make sure to understand that there are more factors than just "being a video game character." We're not at that point just yet.
I disagree with the guy, but it doesn't achieve anything to make it personal and attack their character or social capacity. They're welcome to believe what they want and we're welcome to disagree with it, that's what the forum space allows. So personal attacks like this are unnecessary and taint the discussion.
I got a warning for bring up Android 21 as a pick considered derailment and "spam" and yet, others are still bring her up pages and pages later yet nothing happens.
Well just because there are characters added that break fan rules doesn't mean they deliberately target breaking fan rules either. Min Min breaks a few fan rules as the ARMS rep, and Spring Man would break more, that didn't give Spring Man the edge.
I got a warning for bring up Android 21 as a pick considered derailment and "spam" and yet, others are still bring her up pages and pages later yet nothing happens.
I got a warning for bring up Android 21 as a pick considered derailment and "spam" and yet, others are still bring her up pages and pages later yet nothing happens.
I don't understand where you think I'm making an argument against Western characters, nor have I ever said that Master Chief has no chance. Re-read my initial post on the topic and you will see that I literally said that people are overestimating his chances.
"It's not a required barrier"
Until this pattern breaks, you cannot rule out that possibility. That's the point I'm trying to make.
"Microsoft licensed out Chief to appear in Fortnite"
Nintendo handles Smash's licensing, and if they want Fortnite on their platform they can't just disable the appearance of competing console character skins; they literally wanted this to allow Samus in the game.
Nintendo has final say on the roster, you cannot argue that. We like to assume that just because the occasional miracle happens all of a sudden the floodgates are opened. Cloud and Sephiroth were miracles. Joker was a miracle. Sora was the biggest miracle of all. Banjo and Steve were miracles. Eventually that miracle magic is gonna dry up, and negotiations are a LOT harder than we give it credit for. From a business perspective, Nintendo is going to want a piece of the Halo pie if he's gonna be in their game, and without a Halo game on the platform, they'd just be paying money to have him be in the game and giving free advertising to something they aren't gonna make anything off of is an objectively stupid business decision. Nintendo is not our friend, they are a business run by a bunch of old, out-of-touch farts. I agree that console wars are stupid, I think it would be great to have a world where everything releases on every platform, but I think holding on to a hint of realism is important. I'm just making that known because I think it's important to not get too carried away thinking that anything is possible.
Sora was my dream pick. We are so supremely lucky that we got him. But my new dream pick? She's super obscure. And she's 100% eligible. But I don't delude myself into believing she has a ghost of a chance because she's just not that well known. It's my realism that holds me back from speculating and believing in the possibility.
I think Chief would be a fine pick. I mean, to be honest I'd rather just have an Xbox platfighter, but I think he'd fit just fine in Smash. I'd argue both him and Slayer deserve a spot in here. I'd argue a lot of characters deserve a spot. But no matter how much we say it, Smash does skew towards an audience of Nintendo fans, and so it's in Nintendo's best interest to provide characters you can have an experience with on their turf, no matter how small or spinoff they may be.
I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to open the floodgates to gaming at large, but we have to draw a line somewhere, and it's okay to move the line as new information comes out. But I air on the side of realism, so this is where I've drawn my line. You can believe Chief has a chance - and he does have a chance - but just make sure to understand that there are more factors than just "being a video game character." We're not at that point just yet.
Thank you Louie. Disagreement or otherwise I always value your input.
I don't really think we should wait until any pattern is broken before anticipating who gets in or not. I don't think that is a healthy way to look at things. Just staying in the present and not looking at what could be in the future is something that is not always the greatest way to do things. Also, to try and put it nicely, I do not think Nintendo being a business is that much of a deterrent as to why characters like Master Chief may have a harder time getting in.
Plus, anything being possible may not really be a good argument, but I don't think we should count Master Chief out the way you are doing so yet. Just because we are not at that point yet, does not mean we should be harsh towards characters like Master Chief and his chances.
Plus, even if you did not mean to include other western characters, you should not single Master Chief out. I do not think people are overstating his chances here.
Can't have a discussion about bending the rules without Dragon Ball!
Kind of an offshoot from that question though, I was thinking about a weird hypothetical earlier and I want to know what the consensus is. You know how Super Mario Maker had those weird crossovers referencing manga, cartoons or musical groups? Or how Mario Kart had that Mercedes crossover?
I will not endorse any non-video game characters being playable on the roster, but would it be acceptable to get external multimedia or brand oriented content via Mii Costumes? Adding a bunch of anime may be opening the floodgates, but I imagine it would be some really strange unpredictable crossovers like Shaun the Sheep and BABYMETAL were in Mario Maker instead. I think it'd be pretty funny to be able to dress your Mii in a band t-shirt or wear some merch from a random restaurant cross-promo.
Personally I'd be fine with it, would definitely surprise me at first but I think it would be okay so long as it doesn't relate to the roster directly.
Can't have a discussion about bending the rules without Dragon Ball!
Kind of an offshoot from that question though, I was thinking about a weird hypothetical earlier and I want to know what the consensus is. You know how Super Mario Maker had those weird crossovers referencing manga, cartoons or musical groups? Or how Mario Kart had that Mercedes crossover?
I will not endorse any non-video game characters being playable on the roster, but would it be acceptable to get external multimedia or brand oriented content via Mii Costumes? Adding a bunch of anime may be opening the floodgates, but I imagine it would be some really strange unpredictable crossovers like Shaun the Sheep and BABYMETAL were in Mario Maker. I think it'd be pretty funny to be able to dress your Mii in a band t-shirt or wear some merch from a random restaurant cross-promo. Personally I'd be fine with it, would definitely surprise me at first but I think it would be okay so long as it doesn't relate to the roster directly.
To change the subject a bit since this back and forth is tiring, someone who I think is a bit overlooked that I've been thinking off and on for about a month:
From what I can see, DNF, or DFO, or whatever you wanna call it, is the 3rd highest-grossing media franchise of video game origin after Pokémon and Call of Duty. I think that might put it in consideration for the future especially with DNF Duel introducing the franchise to a wider audience, and since it's topical, DNF Duel happened to release on Switch too.
As for why Berserker specifically, my hunch comes from the fact Slayers are supposedly the most popular classes, with the subclass Berserkers being the most popular of the male Slayers. Which might explain why Berserker was one of the first characters shown off for DNF Duel.
And then there's an upcoming game that will dive into the history of the Slayer class dubbed The First Berserker: Khazan.
Yeah, he'd have to be censored quite a bit for his literal blood-based moves, but still. Can be yellowish-orange like the Korean "Under 18" version, can be black like oil, can be purple like how Carmilla's blood was censored in Ultimate and how Jedah was censored in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite, etc.
Not saying he's a guarantee, but he'd be someone I wouldn't be surprised to see show up in the next Smash's DLC.
Now I didn't play DNF Duel, so I'm not familiar with which character would be the best fit, I'll take your word on it for now
But this is interesting, and Something I could see happening in DLC, especially since it could appeal to Audiences in both Korea and China, and I think it has popularity in Japan also. It's just the West where it's still kind of niche, even with DNF Duel
I guess it depends on how Far Nintendo pushes with getting it's influence to China, since that's where most of the money would be made.
The Android 21 discourse keep chugging along I guess. I just don't see how you jump through the legal hoops for her on account of some loophole technicality with regards to maintaining the brand integrity (video game characters only) for Smash. It's not just "might as well do Goku at that point" it's really just definitely Goku at that point. Not only is he the mascot of the brand, not only is he, for better and worse (I'm looking at the current wave of online Dragon Ball haters) the global ambassador of anime but he's also THE requested rulebreaker character inclusion.
I see way more marketing potential of putting Goku in Smash that I can't see how a business like Nintendo wouldn't see it either. Maybe 4th party characters never get in and that's mostly fine though a bit unfortunate for some really great potential characters but fine nonetheless. With regards to 4th party character inclusions I'd like it to a very strict case-by-case kind of thing and not something that just opens the floodgates for the likes of Shrek and company haha.
So if Dragon Ball gets to be in Smash it's Goku and only Goku. End of discussion. Nobody would cheer a minicule fraction as much for Android 21 or literally any other Dragon Ball character like they would Goku. He has the most widespread appeal to more people and he's instantly recognizable without any real attachment to his series.
The real question would be whether it'd be Kid Goku or Adult Goku. I'd prefer my concept of Kid Goku with GT characteristics though I do need to freshen up that post since it's be a long time and most the video references got nuked by Toei.
I'd Definitely say Adult Goku, Since Dragon Ball Z Specifically is the Most Iconic part of the Brand, as well as the fact that he can use all the Transformations more than Kid Goku can, even taking into Account GT.
Now I would want to say that since you Got both Akira Toriyama and Bandai Namco on Board with Smash already (Akira with Dragon Quest, and Bandai Namco having the Game rights to the series) that Goku can be in prime position to break the "Non Video Game Rule" but it might seem like it's not the case
Shueisha seems to be the Ultimate rights holder of Dragon Ball, but It seems currently there were some Negotiations about the rights since the Chief editor quit from Shueisha and seems to have started his own Capsule Cooperation.
All Toriyama can do is sit on the Sidelines for now, so as Much as I want it to happen, I don't think Goku is in a good position to break this Limit. I actually think the character right now most likely to do that is Mickey Mouse
He was announced in July 2019, but Dragon Quest XI for Switch didn’t release until September 2019. I remember this because I bought DQ11 on release day.
EDIT: I was a little incorrect— June announcement and released in June before DQ11 on Switch. Semantically he counts then, right?
