Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

I'm going to repost my take about skins and appearances, because past me said it better than current me would:

If you're willing to include a character like Joker, who's appearance on a Nintendo system was almost nothing, a spin-off on a dying system, and that character gets priority over dozens with much closer Nintendo ties... what's the point of that one last restriction? It's just ideological at that point. It's not practical.

And the logical extension of questioning it becomes that if something so minor is sufficient, well, a skin would probably be sufficient too. It's almost nothing, but it's not like the scale of attendance correlates to likelihood. It's not like the third-parties we get are those who support Nintendo the hardest. It's wildly inconsistent, there is no correlation. If inclusion was based on Nintendo association, and only those with strong ties to Nintendo got in, then of course, only having a skin in one or two games across all Nintendo platforms would be fatal. But if one low-key spin-off cuts it, then the degree of Nintendo association isn't important. And if association isn't important, is an association-based limitation as important as it's thought to be?

There's almost a contradiction in the ideology. The degree of association isn't important, but no association is? That's basically arbitrary. Which suggests the limiting factor is outdated, misinterpreted, fallible, or nonsensical. And with any of those, that's reason to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Wonder Smash]

The "clear feeling" in question when he was last asked about this... 8 years ago.

He doesn't commit.

So he has a certain feeling, like I said. Clearly, it's important to him to take into consideration if he admitted that he might have had misgivings.

Because you're putting importance onto a niche spin-off that got a late western release and no english dub.
A game that isn't referenced in Smash at all, no spirits, no music, nothing. A game that Atlus didn't really care to put money into.

It's irrelevant to Joker getting in. Joker got in because Persona 5 was a huge hit.

Why should it matter whether or not it's referenced in Smash? It doesn't change the fact that that was his first appearance on a Nintendo console before appearing in Smash.

And nobody is denying that Persona 5 being a big hit was the reason for him getting in. But to say his prior appearance on a Nintendo console is somehow irrelevant? Sakurai wouldn't have admitted to having misgivings about any character if such a thing was irrelevant like you claim.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

There’s a reason none of us were expecting him

The joke was right there.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Again, I wouldn’t really mind if people shrugged at the not-on-Nintendo thing and said eh, I just don’t see it happening. It’s honestly a pretty level headed response to simply wait until an existing precedent is broken. Our stance is the radical one, currently.

But it’s all this rallying behind the most unimportant games that bothers me. The content in Smash itself sends the message - if they cared that much about what’s on Nintendo and what isn’t, they’d do a better job telegraphing that within Smash itself and during the character’s respective presentation. Instead, base FF7 got all the love before it was ever on a Nintendo console and Persona 3-5 got ample content with nothing from SMT or the Q games to be seen.

Prior to these characters inclusion, if I argued Joker will get in because he’s got a spinoff game on 3DS I would be laughed at by many. It’s only now that he’s in the game that this is suddenly a big deal, and that his addition is retroactively justified. There’s a reason none of us were expecting him, and fishing for these trivial excuses is why we’ll continue to get it wrong.

The thing is, nobody is claiming Joker got in BECAUSE of the 3DS game. Just that the 3DS was what made him eligible.

 

[Louie G.]

The thing is, nobody is claiming Joker got in BECAUSE of the 3DS game. Just that the 3DS was what made him eligible.

That means the same thing. By proxy he got in because of the 3DS game, because by your standards he wouldn’t have otherwise.

It makes or breaks his eligibility and despite how good and popular Persona 5 was, it’s this one game that he needed to count on. If it didn’t exist Nintendo would have passed. So yeah under your hypothesis Persona Q2 got him in the game.

 

[fogbadge]

oh you're just saying **** for attention

got it

theres 89 of them I can’t be expected to remember all of them. and it’s quite rude to assume someone’s trolling just cause you don’t like what they say

 

[7NATOR]

about Sakurai and DLC Discussion, here's something interesting

IGN: GDC 2008: Sakurai on Super Smash Bros. Brawl

web.archive.org

This is Sakurai talking about the Possiblity of DLC for Brawl. He said it wasn't happening. He also noted that the Wii is a Disc Based system, With no Hard Drive, which seems to be the main reason he felt it couldn't happen

But he didn't say that he was against DLC, and in future interviews about DLC in Smash 4 (before Mewtwo was revealed) he'd be open to the possiblity in the future, but was focused on the Core game

As for Master Chief not being on Nintendo, besides some Appearances in Fortnite and Minecraft, I will say that the biggest thing that makes this important is the idea that Nintendo audiences wouldn't be Familiar with Chief, especially in Japan. Although I would think a Main perk of Including Chief is that he appeals to people outside Nintendo's Audience, and in Japan, the Previous Halo games have sold well Despite Xbox not ever being a Main console there

Also, I could see Master Chief Collection coming to this Next Console as evidence of Nintendo's Growing connections with other companies, as the New Switch allows more "Powerful" Games to be playable on the hardware that would be Impossible with the regular Switch. If Chief is in Smash, I'd imagine the announcements to be intertwined in some fashion

 

[Wonder Smash]

That means the same thing. By proxy he got in because of the 3DS game, because by your standards he wouldn’t have otherwise.

It's not really the same thing. The 3DS game was how he got in. Persona 5 was why.

 

[Chuderz]

Has Kazuya ever been on a Nintendo console? I actually have no idea.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Has Kazuya ever been on a Nintendo console? I actually have no idea.

Tekken Tag Tournament 2

 

[Noipoi]

Has Kazuya ever been on a Nintendo console? I actually have no idea.

Yeah man

Banjo Kazuya was huge back in the 90s

 

[7NATOR]

Has Kazuya ever been on a Nintendo console? I actually have no idea.

Tekken Tag 2 on Wii U

Tekken Prime Edition on 3DS

Tekken Advance on the Gameboy (well Kazuya wasn't in that since that game was based on Tekken 3)

 

[Chuderz]

Tekken Tag Tournament 2

Nice thanks for the quick reply! I would have never imagined Tekken ever appeared on a Nintendo console but I guess crazier things have happened haha.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Has Kazuya ever been on a Nintendo console? I actually have no idea.

Yeah, the Tekken games that's already mentioned, and the Project X Zone games.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Yeah man

Banjo Kazuya was huge back in the 90s

Ah yes, the inseparable duo.

 

[dream1ng]

This is Sakurai talking about the Possiblity of DLC for Brawl. He said it wasn't happening. He also noted that the Wii is a Disc Based system, With no Hard Drive, which seems to be the main reason he felt it couldn't happen

But he didn't say that he was against DLC, and in future interviews about DLC in Smash 4 (before Mewtwo was revealed) he'd be open to the possiblity in the future, but was focused on the Core game

I'm going to post the actual quote, to eliminate any editorializing. Because he was very brief and very matter-of-fact on it.

IGN: We have to ask because there are so many rumors about this. Are there any hidden characters to come? Can you unlock more hidden fighters by way of WiiConnect24 or will you offer new downloadable content -- new fighters, for example. -- using the service?

Masahiro Sakurai: No. There are no characters that can be unlocked via connecting to WiiConnect24 or interacting in that fashion. And I may be mistaken here, but the Wii doesn't have a hard drive -- it's a disc-based system -- so I don't think we'll be doing that, I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[Wonder Smash]

The problem with this is no one who says they do count or they don't count actually speaks from authority. It's all guesswork and we don't know.

I hate to say this but I feel that this is what people need to keep in mind when talking about Android 21.

 

[fogbadge]

Ah yes, the inseparable duo.

View attachment 385729

I’ve been worried my phone would autocorrect kazuya into kazooie for a while now

 

[DarthEnderX]

Nintendo needs to buy both RARE and Playtonic and merge the companies so we can have the old team back with their original IP’s.

Nuts to that. Nintendo needs to buy both Capcom and Squareenix. So we can have THE GREATEST SMASH BROS EVER!!

Who even cares about Rare then!

 

[dream1ng]

I hate to say this but I feel that this is what people need to keep in mind when talking about Android 21.

Well I stand by everything I said about Android 21. It's prioritizing a loophole above the result, and it's not going to happen. Unlike Master Chief, whether she's eligible seems moot, because if Chief is eligible, he has a very real chance of showing up. So his eligibility actually matters.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Um, ackshually, Master Chief isn't eligible because a book came before the game, so Master Chief actually debuted outside a video game unlike Android 21 who is 100% eligible since she appeared in a video game first.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Fortnite is a bit different since it's treated as the character canonically being in the story. Minecraft is a cameo in comparison. However, let's also note that it was the Halo Mash-Up Pack that got on the Nintendo version of Minecraft, something not even the PlayStation version got. So that's actually pretty big in terms of how well Microsoft and Nintendo work together.

As someone who's listened a several hours long video about the lore of Fortnite, this is objectively incorrect. The only two things that have been a part of the canon are Marvel and DC. And this argument would be flimsy as best because do you really think lore-wise Lady Gaga, Travis Scott, etc. have any actual lore connections? As for Minecraft, that's an inhouse property for Microsoft. They get to choose what they put on what system. Nintendo's in charge of Smash, and very clearly having some form of Nintendo connection is important to them since they get final say on their crossover turf.

And none of those games have any content in Smash Ultimate, only the ones that weren’t on Nintendo consoles (yet). These arguments would hold a lot more weight if Persona Q2 had even a sliver of representation in Smash, but it doesn’t. I have a very difficult time taking this argument seriously anymore.

This point means literally nothing. Symphony of the Night has representation, it's never been on Nintendo. Once the series crosses over into Smash, all content from it is fair game to pull from (unless you're Final Fantasy for some reason), and as spinoffs, it makes total sense for them to be lower priority to pull from, content-wise. It's not like they're gonna take chibi Cloud or Joker as their actual design because "that's what's on Nintendo"

So people are going to keep the option on the table until there's definitive reason to remove it. Which, atm, there isn't.

The reason Sakurai's statements seem to leave it as a grey area is probably exactly on the off chance it happens.

These are the exact sentiments I'm referring to.

Occam's Razor. Whether you like it or not, Joker and Cloud DID have appearances on a Nintendo system prior to arrival. So until this pattern is broken, it's best to assume that it's a steadfast rule. Nintendo gets final say on it, full stop, and again - note how every single piece of Microsoft content follows the pattern.

It's always funny when people put a tremendous amount of importance on a game Atlus couldn't even be bothered to dub for the western release (even though the English dubs are why the majority of western fans even love the Persona casts) and that most people don't even know about, except to go "no but Joker had a Nintendo appearance see"

It's not like the game was shadowdropped, Sakurai absolutely would have known that it was coming. Thinking logically, being released so close to Joker's Smash announcement might have even been an intentional move on Nintendo or Atlus's part to get the game more sales. Whether you like it or not, this is still a Nintendo appearance. And even then... characters aren't picked based on appeal to the West? Persona is infinitely more popular in Japan.

For the purpose of keeping expectations in check, it is wise to assume that a steadfast pattern does mean something until it is broken. I actively want characters like Chai and Sly Cooper - but I'm not deluded into thinking they have a chance because the facts point to them not having a ghost of one. Until I see Kratos or Master Chief in the game, first-party exclusives with console exclusivity are a no-go, and I'm going to continue to treat them as a no-go. We got some crazy picks during Ultimate, but people should at least temper their expectations. 10 years ago ya'll would've laughed at the prospect of Chief or Kratos in Smash, but the second a surprising character gets in, everyone jumps to "ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN". Ya'll need to keep your speculation brain in check.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Well I stand by everything I said about Android 21. It's prioritizing a loophole above the result, and it's not going to happen. Unlike Master Chief, whether she's eligible seems moot, because if Chief is eligible, he has a very real chance of showing up. So his eligibility actually matters.

But I'm talking about speaking from authority, as some people claim she's not eligilble based on something not said by Sakurai or Nintendo. That was all guesswork too.

 

[Schnee117]

So he has a certain feeling, like I said. Clearly, it's important to him to take into consideration if he admitted that he might have had misgivings.

His "certain feeling" is that he doesn't commit either way when asked about this 8 years ago.

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 2

Sakurai discusses all seven of the DLC characters in Smash for Wii U/3DS.

sourcegaming.info

Note that the Cloud section kicks off with
" Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash? "

Note how the only reference to spin-offs is from the interviewer and Sakurai ignores that to say console wars are dumb and promptly moves on.
Sakurai does not talk about them, he focuses on FF7 and Advent Children.

Why should it matter whether or not it's referenced in Smash? It doesn't change the fact that that was his first appearance on a Nintendo console before appearing in Smash.

And nobody is denying that Persona 5 being a big hit was the reason for him getting in. But to say his prior appearance on a Nintendo console is somehow irrelevant? Sakurai wouldn't have admitted to having misgivings about any character if such a thing was irrelevant like you claim.

If Persona Q2 was relevant it would have content in Smash. You're arguing over a week or two that only applies to the Japanese audience.
For the worldwide audience that Joker's reveal was targeted towards, Joker's first Nintendo appearance is Smash.

Smash has few qualms adding from things yet to release. MGS4 came out after Brawl in Japan and the USA yet it still had content (and major spoilers) from it. Corrin was super controversial in part because FE Fates wasn't out anywhere outside of Japan. If Q2 mattered, we'd have at least gotten some music.

We even see that Nintendo appearances are irrelevant with Snake. Nothing Metal Gear has originates from the NES version of Metal Gear 2 or Twin Snakes. Everything is original to a MSX or PlayStation title.

It's not really the same thing. The 3DS game was how he got in. Persona 5 was why.

You would still be saying "Joker got in because of Persona Q2" in response to someone asking "How did Joker make it in to Smash"

It's not like the game was shadowdropped, Sakurai absolutely would have known that it was coming. Thinking logically, being released so close to Joker's Smash announcement might have even been an intentional move on Nintendo or Atlus's part to get the game more sales. Whether you like it or not, this is still a Nintendo appearance. And even then... characters aren't picked based on appeal to the West? Persona is infinitely more popular in Japan.

Characters can and have been added because of western fanbases.
Joker has huge worldwide appeal, there's a reason they fast tracked his trailer for a game awards reveal lol

10 years ago ya'll would've laughed at the prospect of Chief or Kratos in Smash, but the second a surprising character gets in, everyone jumps to "ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN". Ya'll need to keep your speculation brain in check.

10 years ago was 1 year before I started actively supporting Chief because of Cloud lmfao

 

[Gengar84]

I think that a character's history with Nintendo should be something that helps a character's chances but a character without that history shouldn't be disqualified. Basically, I think everything should be on somewhat of a sliding scale. The stronger the history and relevance to Nintendo, the more points they get. At the same time, the more generally popular the character, the more points they get as well, with or without that history. So characters that are generally popular and have the strongest ties to Nintendo would probably have the highest popularity. Characters that are less generally popular but significant to Nintendo and characters that are iconic in gaming but less relevant to Nintendo should be around tied.

So basically, my scale would be something like this using an example:

Zero > Master Chief = Fulgore > Raziel

That being said, I think we should still get some surprise characters that don't follow these guidelines and get in just because they would be fun to play.

I personally don't put much value in a random spinoff game as a justification for adding a character to the game. Persona Q isn't why most people would care about Joker and the same is true for a random Minecraft skin for Master Chief. I don't see why we'd even need that restriction at that point. The only merit in the restriction is so that Nintendo fans would be more familiar with the character chosen. That makes sense for games like Castlevania or Mega Man but seems like a kind of pointless restriction if the game on Nintendo is such a minor appearance compared to their other roles.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ah, I forgot he was a minor skin, my bad.

Still, counts as an official appearance for what matters anyway(same as Minecraft, though that situation's a tad more notable since the world of Halo itself(though not like ever aspect, heh) was brought over, not just a single skin).

Main reason people thought it was a restriction was due to a mistranslation. Some still hold onto the idea even after it's made clear that it's a "courtesy", not a requirement. Of course, with how many crossovers keep happening, a Nintendo appearance is far more likely to happen anyway before they get in Smash. But that doesn't mean it's a guarantee or a requirement, heh.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Way back when @ChronoBound said that Dark Samus was possibly the luckiest character on the roster.

I think he's right. She should have been a no hoper.

Wolf, Ganondorf, and Sephiroth are right there.

 

[Gengar84]

I think if Master Chief does make it in, it will be because he's very highly requested and the franchise is so iconic. I don't think his Minecraft skin will factor into the decision at all.

 

[7NATOR]

But I'm talking about speaking from authority, as some people claim she's not eligilble based on something not said by Sakurai or Nintendo. That was all guesswork too.

I think just coming from the Dragon Ball I.P would be all that needs to be said, Since Android 21 would be owned by the Same people and Companies that own Dragon Ball itself.

Who Owns the Rights to Dragon Ball?

Who Owns the Rights to Dragon Ball? Dragon Ball, created by the legendary Japanese manga artist Akira Toriyama, is one of the most beloved and iconic anime franchises in the world. With its thrilling storylines, memorable characters, and intense battles, Dragon Ball has captured the hearts...

dbz-store.com

The Reasons that Sakurai gave for not being able to include James Bond all had to do with Likeness and rights (as well as weaponry)

The Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash

A comprehensive update to the Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash! A fully sourced list of every statement made by Sakurai on potential fighters for each entry in the Smash series.

sourcegaming.info

So at that point, if you manage to get everyone on board, might as well Break the Rule and add Goku instead of being limited by what rules have been stated in the past

As someone who's listened a several hours long video about the lore of Fortnite, this is objectively incorrect. The only two things that have been a part of the canon are Marvel and DC. And this argument would be flimsy as best because do you really think lore-wise Lady Gaga, Travis Scott, etc. have any actual lore connections? As for Minecraft, that's an inhouse property for Microsoft. They get to choose what they put on what system. Nintendo's in charge of Smash, and very clearly having some form of Nintendo connection is important to them since they get final say on their crossover turf.



This point means literally nothing. Symphony of the Night has representation, it's never been on Nintendo. Once the series crosses over into Smash, all content from it is fair game to pull from (unless you're Final Fantasy for some reason), and as spinoffs, it makes total sense for them to be lower priority to pull from, content-wise. It's not like they're gonna take chibi Cloud or Joker as their actual design because "that's what's on Nintendo"



These are the exact sentiments I'm referring to.

Occam's Razor. Whether you like it or not, Joker and Cloud DID have appearances on a Nintendo system prior to arrival. So until this pattern is broken, it's best to assume that it's a steadfast rule. Nintendo gets final say on it, full stop, and again - note how every single piece of Microsoft content follows the pattern.



It's not like the game was shadowdropped, Sakurai absolutely would have known that it was coming. Thinking logically, being released so close to Joker's Smash announcement might have even been an intentional move on Nintendo or Atlus's part to get the game more sales. Whether you like it or not, this is still a Nintendo appearance. And even then... characters aren't picked based on appeal to the West? Persona is infinitely more popular in Japan.

For the purpose of keeping expectations in check, it is wise to assume that a steadfast pattern does mean something until it is broken. I actively want characters like Chai and Sly Cooper - but I'm not deluded into thinking they have a chance because the facts point to them not having a ghost of one. Until I see Kratos or Master Chief in the game, first-party exclusives with console exclusivity are a no-go, and I'm going to continue to treat them as a no-go. We got some crazy picks during Ultimate, but people should at least temper their expectations. 10 years ago ya'll would've laughed at the prospect of Chief or Kratos in Smash, but the second a surprising character gets in, everyone jumps to "ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN". Ya'll need to keep your speculation brain in check.

We are using Speculation to assess the Factors of a Character like Chief getting in. Now for Kratos specifically, I really would be surprised if he got in since Sony and Nintendo do act as Direct Competitors to each other.

But for the notion of Chief, due to Microsoft's and Nintendo Close connection, and with the way Microsoft is becoming open to expanding beyond Xbox, as well as the fact Microsoft has 2 Characters already in the game, including one from the Highest selling game ever made, that's why people are taking Master Chief seriously

Having no game on Switch or Nintendo in General is something to take note of, but with a New console on the way that Should support more powerful games, there's more chances that this could be remedied

 

[CannonStreak]

I am a bit late, but though I don't have the source as well, I am going to have to back up someone here, with the word dream in his username; which is dream1ng ; I have seen a few sources saying that Sakurai was against DLC initially. I don't know if he still is or not, but he was. In fact, Mewtwo was said to be the only DLC character for Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS before they decided to make more for that same game. If you all were talking about Sakurai's stance on DLC before, I think it is no secret or surprise that Sakurai was, and maybe still is against DLC for games like even Smash Bros.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Characters can and have been added because of western fanbases.
Joker has huge worldwide appeal, there's a reason they fast tracked his trailer for a game awards reveal lol

I should've modified my wording. Absolutely there have been, but Western appeal has never been the primary factor behind whether or not someone gets in. There have been plenty of characters who were added despite not being particularly popular in the west. They've been trying to make more characters have worldwide appeal lately, though.

My point is that the game not having a dub is irrelevant to the conversation, especially considering Persona has always been more popular in Japan. Even if their opinions on the characters is pretty milquetoast. Seriously, Ryuji is such a good boy and he's the least popular Phantom Thief by a long shot over there. Meanwhile Makoto is supremely overrated there.

 

[Louie G.]

This point means literally nothing. Symphony of the Night has representation, it's never been on Nintendo. Once the series crosses over into Smash, all content from it is fair game to pull from (unless you're Final Fantasy for some reason), and as spinoffs, it makes total sense for them to be lower priority to pull from, content-wise. It's not like they're gonna take chibi Cloud or Joker as their actual design because "that's what's on Nintendo"

But see, this argument already hinges on a number of perceived exceptions and progressively furthered goalposts. Would this have been the accepted stance on the issue before Cloud? Prior to that Cloud gets laughed off because he doesn't have a strong direct Nintendo connection. Then we say okay, Final Fantasy has a strong connection to Nintendo, Cloud doesn't, but that makes him viable anyway. Cloud is released and he comes with two songs from a game that isn't on a Nintendo console, a stage from a game not on a Nintendo console, and is a character whose game of origin was never on Nintendo. His series is listed as FF7, not Final Fantasy. Why? Sakurai was okay with this simply because "chibi Cloud" was on a couple 3DS games nobody cares about? This is what I really can't get past at this point. Believe what you will, but this argument will never line up for me. I'm not even remotely saying they would add a playable chibi Joker, but surely some Q2 content like a song or something would be warranted or even mandated by Nintendo if that game is the only reason Joker is viable at all.

Look, it's always going to be harder to argue in favor of something that hasn't technically happened, I understand that. People can find all sorts of reasons to justify their perceived status quo, we're all guilty of it. I'm fighting a losing battle here until we see the receipts, and even then I anticipate Halo gets ported to Nintendo before this rule has the opportunity to be broken. I'm just exhausted by pretending Nintendo and Sakurai feel the need to hold off on incredibly popular characters until they have a couple measly spinoff games under their belt. Maybe you disagree, but I find it ridiculous to believe they are placing that much weight on these games if they aren't even significant enough to acknowledge in Smash in the first place. And I'd feel better loosening my grip and accepting that these rules are susceptible to be broken than trying to uphold them and being caught with my pants down later. This is coming from someone who prefers Smash as a Nintendo crossover first and foremost, I accept that we're well beyond that.

 

[Gengar84]

But see, this argument already hinges on a number of perceived exceptions and progressively furthered goalposts. Would this have been the accepted stance on the issue before Cloud? Prior to that Cloud gets laughed off because he doesn't have a strong direct Nintendo connection. Then we say okay, Final Fantasy has a strong connection to Nintendo, Cloud doesn't, but that makes him viable anyway. Cloud is released and he comes with two songs from a game that isn't on a Nintendo console, a stage from a game not on a Nintendo console, and is a character whose game of origin was never on Nintendo. His series is listed as FF7, not Final Fantasy. Why? Sakurai was okay with this simply because "chibi Cloud" was on a couple 3DS games nobody cares about? This is what I really can't get past at this point. Believe what you will, but this argument will never line up for me. I'm not even remotely saying they would add a playable chibi Joker, but surely some Q2 content like a song or something would be warranted or even mandated by Nintendo if that game is the only reason Joker is viable at all.

Look, it's always going to be harder to argue in favor of something that hasn't technically happened, I understand that. People can find all sorts of reasons to justify their perceived status quo, we're all guilty of it. I'm fighting a losing battle here until we see the receipts, and even then I anticipate Halo gets ported to Nintendo before this rule has the opportunity to be broken. I'm just exhausted by pretending Nintendo and Sakurai feel the need to hold off on incredibly popular characters until they have a couple measly spinoff games under their belt. Maybe you disagree, but I find it ridiculous to believe they are placing that much weight on these games if they aren't even significant enough to acknowledge in Smash in the first place. And I'd feel better loosening my grip and accepting that these rules are susceptible to be broken than trying to uphold them and being caught with my pants down later. This is coming from someone who prefers Smash as a Nintendo crossover first and foremost, I accept that we're well beyond that.

I completely agree with this. Like I mentioned, Master Chief might be out prioritized by someone of comparable fame with a stronger Nintendo history but I think he's definitely still a strong contender thanks to how many people love his series. I think getting a port on a Nintendo console would help but it isn't required.

 

[Laniv]

Tekken Advance on the Gameboy (well Kazuya wasn't in that since that game was based on Tekken 3)

Waitwaitwait stop the presses

There was a Tekken game on Game Boy Advance??

 

[Wonder Smash]

His "certain feeling" is that he doesn't commit either way when asked about this 8 years ago.

Nintendo Dream Interview with Sakurai: Part 2

Sakurai discusses all seven of the DLC characters in Smash for Wii U/3DS.

sourcegaming.info

Note that the Cloud section kicks off with
" Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash? "

Note how the only reference to spin-offs is from the interviewer and Sakurai ignores that to say console wars are dumb and promptly moves on.
Sakurai does not talk about them, he focuses on FF7 and Advent Children.

He actually responds to that before moving on to talking about FFVII and AC and even pointed out that FFVII not being on Nintendo consoles at that point wasn't a problem for him. However, if he still admitted that he might have had misgivings if Cloud wasn't on Nintendo consoles at all, so that's enough to raise doubts on other characters that also don't have appearances on the consoles.

If Persona Q2 was relevant it would have content in Smash. You're arguing over a week or two that only applies to the Japanese audience.
For the worldwide audience that Joker's reveal was targeted towards, Joker's first Nintendo appearance is Smash.

Smash has few qualms adding from things yet to release. MGS4 came out after Brawl in Japan and the USA yet it still had content (and major spoilers) from it. Corrin was super controversial in part because FE Fates wasn't out anywhere outside of Japan. If Q2 mattered, we'd have at least gotten some music.

We even see that Nintendo appearances are irrelevant with Snake. Nothing Metal Gear has originates from the NES version of Metal Gear 2 or Twin Snakes. Everything is original to a MSX or PlayStation title.

So just because they're not featured in Smash, they're irrelevant? What do you base that on?

I guess Simon not being in Smash 4 meant he was irrelevant too, huh? Same thing with Hero? Sephiroth?

Snake and Wolf were in Brawl but they just suddenly became irrelevant during Smash 4 and that's why they're not in there, right?

Pac-Maze comes straight from the original Pac-Man game but since it's missing from Ultimate, it's irrelevant?

You would still be saying "Joker got in because of Persona Q2" in response to someone asking "How did Joker make it in to Smash"

No, I wouldn't. I would tell them because Persona 5 was a huge hit.

If they bring up Nintendo appearances, then I would mention Persona Q2.

 

[superprincess]

I can't believe this is even a conversation. Do some of you really think Cloud and Joker got in because of some irrelevant spinoffs that were on Nintendo consoles instead of, you know, their massively successful debuts that weren't? What a strawman argument.

As somebody else already mentioned, having a strong(er) Nintendo presence is a nice bonus that boosts a character's chances, but isn't absolutely required. That's that, there's no arguing about it, moving on.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Waitwaitwait stop the presses

There was a Tekken game on Game Boy Advance??

It's a port of Tekken 3 with most of the unlockable characters removed, as well as Lei and Eddy because their sprites would take up the whole cartridge.

 

[AreJay25]

Waitwaitwait stop the presses

There was a Tekken game on Game Boy Advance??

There sure was. I had it back in the day.

Funny thing? It actually plays pretty god damn well considering the hardware.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

But see, this argument already hinges on a number of perceived exceptions and progressively furthered goalposts. Would this have been the accepted stance on the issue before Cloud? Prior to that Cloud gets laughed off because he doesn't have a strong direct Nintendo connection. Then we say okay, Final Fantasy has a strong connection to Nintendo, Cloud doesn't, but that makes him viable anyway. Cloud is released and he comes with two songs from a game that isn't on a Nintendo console, a stage from a game not on a Nintendo console, and is a character whose game of origin was never on Nintendo. His series is listed as FF7, not Final Fantasy. Why? Sakurai was okay with this simply because "chibi Cloud" was on a couple 3DS games nobody cares about? This is what I really can't get past at this point. Believe what you will, but this argument will never line up for me. I'm not even remotely saying they would add a playable chibi Joker, but surely some Q2 content like a song or something would be warranted or even mandated by Nintendo if that game is the only reason Joker is viable at all.

You'd also think the Life Will Change, equivocally the most iconic theme of the game Joker comes from, that was played IN HIS TRAILER, would've been in, but sometimes the Smash team make weird choices. And also... like, the Theatrhythm games were super popular, so I don't know where you're getting off saying that no one cares about them.

Look, it's always going to be harder to argue in favor of something that hasn't technically happened, I understand that. People can find all sorts of reasons to justify their perceived status quo, we're all guilty of it. I'm fighting a losing battle here until we see the receipts, and even then I anticipate Halo gets ported to Nintendo before this rule has the opportunity to be broken. I'm just exhausted by pretending Nintendo and Sakurai feel the need to hold off on incredibly popular characters until they have a couple measly spinoff games under their belt. Maybe you disagree, but I find it ridiculous to believe they are placing that much weight on these games if they aren't even significant enough to acknowledge in Smash in the first place. And I'd feel better loosening my grip and accepting that these rules are susceptible to be broken than trying to uphold them and being caught with my pants down later. This is coming from someone who prefers Smash as a Nintendo crossover first and foremost, I accept that we're well beyond that.

I'm not saying the rules aren't susceptible to be broken, and I think that they absolutely should be broken. I'd welcome Playstation and Xbox characters for sure - but until they are, I think it's best to assume that they're off the table entirely.

I completely agree with this. Like I mentioned, Master Chief might be out prioritized by someone of comparable fame with a stronger Nintendo history but I think he's definitely still a strong contender thanks to how many people love his series. I think getting a port on a Nintendo console would help but it isn't required.

You're also ignoring the issue of lack of Japanese appeal. Halo has never been a big thing in the East - primarily because neither has Xbox - but generally they prioritize picks that would appeal to a Japanese audience. I'd expect Dovahkiin, Ori, heck at this point honestly even Chai (if he gets a sequel) before Chief.

I can't believe this is even a conversation. Do some of you really think Cloud and Joker got in because of some irrelevant spinoffs that were on Nintendo consoles instead of, you know, their massively successful debuts that weren't? What a strawman argument.

As somebody else already mentioned, having a strong(er) Nintendo presence is a nice bonus that boosts a character's chances, but isn't absolutely required. That's that, there's no arguing about it, moving on.

You're ignorantly ignoring a pattern that is still supported by the roster we have because you want to believe in a prospect that has not yet been proven to be feasible. There's no arguing about it, moving on.

Just because Nintendo and Microsoft have a solid relationship does not mean that anything is possible. Console walls are still not broken, even if they should be. Don't forget that both the NieR and Devil May Cry directors have both made statements implying a Nintendo appearance may still be a bigger boon than "just a bonus."

 

[CannonStreak]

Master Chief certainly does not have the Japanese appeal like Cloud and Joker did, but who said Smash Bros. had to have characters that had to appeal to just Japan, let alone both the west and the east? I don't think we should count out Master Chief just because he, or more so, a fully western character has not been added in as a playable character in Smash Bros. yet. I don't think we should wait until any "rules" are broken before we change our minds on them like with Master Chief, but we should instead be more open about the possibility of western characters getting in Smash Bros. and not use any "rules" as an excuse to deny that they could get in. Sure, things like language barriers can make it harder for characters from the west to get into Smash Bros., but they have not entirely been denied, since we did get Mii costumes for Doom Slayer and other western based game characters. So I don't think we should rule out the possibly for western characters like Master Chief getting into a future Smash Bros. game at this time, but try to anticipate it more and not say things like they can't get in just because it has not happened yet.