Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Arcanir]

Ganondorf is also extremely inconsistent in terms of abilities, chances are he might’ve had to wait until 3DS and Wii U at the earliest. Wolf was quite literally unfinished in Brawl, and Sephiroth was likely only prioritized because Cloud was dealt a bad hand. As for Dark Samus, I feel like Dark Samus having the Assist Trophy at all helped their priority significantly given how Sakurai views them. But yeah fourth place works.

I don't see how having 'inconsistent' abilities would prevent Ganondorf from being in Brawl. Smash has flat out made up movesets for characters based on a theme and it's not like all of those abilities are so scattershot that they couldn't come up with something cohesive based around a concrete idea for the character. It would more likely be a matter of just choosing what options worked for the moveset they hand in mind, which is something they've done before.

Both Wolf and Dark Samus benefitted from being able to use pre-existing movesets, and while Wolf was a frankenstein of sorts, he was still more unique as a character vs. Dark Samus who really only differentiates from Samus via her animations. I'd say on that level Dark Samus was still the luckier of the two since she likely required less work to get finished and was an easy slot in for the new clones, and that's not getting into real world circumstances that definitely did not favor her.

Finally, Sephiroth did not need 'Cloud being dealt a bad hand' to get into Smash. He's one of the most iconic villains in video games and definitely could've gotten in on his own merits. Trying to exclusively sell his placement on that circumstance is downplaying the character.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Dark Samus would have never gotten in if Echoes were not a thing. Full stop. To deny otherwise is asinine.

Ganondorf would have been added eventually, Wolf being "unfinished" doesn't mean anything when the same applies to Mr. Game & Watch in Melee, and Sephiroth still could have gotten in later regardless based on his merits. The only thing Sephiroth was "lucky" about was that he was the first of his kind (secondary non-Echo guest).

So would’ve Dr. Mario, Falco, Pichu, Young Link, Roy, Daisy, Chrom etc? Aren’t they all just as lucky as Dark Samus by your logic? Also G&W was always planned, while Wolf was a lat minute addition and the last character you unlock in Brawl. Dude barely got in.

 

[Wonder Smash]

4th-party content? How about:

Gear

and

Marcus!

Characters from World War Blue.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So would’ve Dr. Mario, Falco, Pichu, Young Link, Roy, Daisy, Chrom etc? Aren’t they all just as lucky as Dark Samus by your logic? Also G&W was always planned, while Wolf was a lat minute addition and the last character you unlock in Brawl. Dude barely got in.

None of them were as irrelevant as Dark Samus was. That's what you don't seem to grasp here.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I don't see how having 'inconsistent' abilities would prevent Ganondorf from being in Brawl. Smash has flat out made up movesets for characters based on a theme and it's not like all of those abilities are so scattershot that they couldn't come up with something cohesive based around a concrete idea for the character. It would more likely be a matter of just choosing what options worked for the moveset they hand in mind, which is something they've done before.

Both Wolf and Dark Samus benefitted from being able to use pre-existing movesets, and while Wolf was a frankenstein of sorts, he was still more unique as a character vs. Dark Samus who really only differentiates from Samus via her animations. I'd say on that level Dark Samus was still the luckier of the two since she likely required less work to get finished and was an easy slot in for the new clones, and that's not getting into real world circumstances that definitely did not favor her.

Finally, Sephiroth did not need 'Cloud being dealt a bad hand' to get into Smash. He's one of the most iconic villains in video games and definitely could've gotten in on his own merits. Trying to exclusively sell his placement on that circumstance is downplaying the character.

Sephiroth is also from a series that’s famous for swapping everything besides a select few elements each game. Chances are if Cloud wasn’t dealt a bad hand, we could’ve gotten Terra or Bartz in first. Wolf being a Frankenstein is my point. And Ganondorf I can concede on. But at the same time he still feels like he would’ve skipped Brawl had he not been in Melee just by his nature of being a Twist Villain in Twilight Princess.

 

[Louie G.]

Certainly in a bit of a different context, but the "luckiest" character has always been Lucas to me. I don't really know the true validity of Sakurai saying he didn't know Mother 3 wasn't releasing stateside, I feel like that must have been a little tongue in cheek. With such a long journey to Mother 3's release and hailing from such an unorthodox, fairly small scale series like that it's a miracle that he was ever able to join the fray. It's even crazier that he's been back twice... I'm not expecting him to return next time around, but I'm forever grateful for his inclusion and how it introduced my to my favorite game.

And I suppose Roy is pretty lucky too, since his game wasn't even out yet and he was similarly from a then niche series that didn't even have a single game release overseas. There's obscure and irrelevant, and then there's this guy. Luckier still is that he somehow became a fan favorite character, and his success in Smash has boosted him to further levels of popularity in his home series where he's getting a fair amount of merchandise. These two are lucky in a pretty different sense than Dark Samus, but they're very special circumstances for sure.

More similar to Dark Samus, maybe Chrom too? We were just talking about how he was such a rush job that Robin's final smash remained the same (and they added him with the wrong victory theme, lol). It's not very common that Fire Emblem receives characters "out of season" so to speak, so Chrom's treatment is pretty unprecedented when his debut game had come and gone.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Sephiroth is also from a series that’s famous for swapping everything besides a select few elements each game. Chances are if Cloud wasn’t dealt a bad hand, we could’ve gotten Terra or Bartz in first.

Would we though?


Would we really have gotten a character not nearly as iconic to the franchise or gaming as a whole JUST because some arbitrary "quota" for a game had been met?

I'd say odds would be more likely no other Final Fantasy character would get in regardless on whether or not Sephiroth did.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Captain N wasn’t even good.

Doesn't matter!

We have Simon. We have Mega Man. We have Kid Icarus!

We just need Miis for Captain N(Gunner), King Hippo(Brawler) and Eggplant Wizard(Mage). And Mother Brain boss.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The ONLY 4th-party content allowed in Smash, for ANY reason...is a Captain N Mii Gunner costume.

I know that the joke has been done to death but i'd say Dragon Ball still fits well if they ever put ANY non videogame anything in smash.

I say this because at this point the Dragon Ball videogames have created their own separate continuity that isnt part of the manga or anime with it's own set of characters on top of all the familiar faces we know and love from the anime.

Chronoa, Tokitoki, Towa, Mira, Android 21, Shallot and others.

It'll obviously never happen though, they might have originated in videogames but they are so linked to anime characters you cant separate them from it.

View attachment 385748

Would we though?


Would we really have gotten a character not nearly as iconic to the franchise or gaming as a whole JUST because some arbitrary "quota" for a game had been met?

I'd say odds would be more likely no other Final Fantasy character would get in regardless on whether or not Sephiroth did.

I dunno, FF is popular enough that if they wanted too they probably could get another protagonist from the series.

 

[JOJONumber691]

None of them were as irrelevant as Dark Samus was. That's what you don't seem to grasp here.

Richter Belmont.

View attachment 385748

Would we though?


Would we really have gotten a character not nearly as iconic to the franchise or gaming as a whole JUST because some arbitrary "quota" for a game had been met?

I'd say odds would be more likely no other Final Fantasy character would get in regardless on whether or not Sephiroth did.

Sakurai has been on the record saying he considered pretty much every Final Fantasy protagonist for Smash before settling on Cloud. Besides if you want iconic, Kefka is pretty damn close and arguably the Main Character of his own game.

 

[Will]

Besides if you want iconic, Kefka is pretty damn close and arguably the Main Character of his own game.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. It’s Terra’s game and he’s the Joker the villain.

 

[Ivander]

Richter Belmont

That's not even counting all of the appearances he was making in spin-off Castlevania content like Harmony of Despair plus the amount of mobile Castlevania games and the fact that both Symphony of the Night and Dracula X Chronicles had recently been re-released in a combo pack.

 

[NintenRob]

Wasn't Richter also the source of many of the moves in that moveset? To the point Sakurai even joked about Simon might be the echo of Richter.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Sakurai has been on the record saying he considered pretty much every Final Fantasy protagonist for Smash before settling on Cloud.

Going to call bull**** on that one.

Sakurai x Nomura: Creator Interview 2016 [Part One]

Nomura and Sakurai discuss the challenges of getting Cloud into Smash.

sourcegaming.info

Cloud wasn’t what he "settled on". Cloud was his main choice. Because, and I quote "if you think about who to add from Final Fantasy, it’s hard to come up with a choice that’s not Cloud."

Besides if you want iconic, Kefka is pretty damn close and arguably the Main Character of his own game.

Yeah.....no.
By no stretch of the means is Kefka anywhere near close to Cloud and Sephiroth.

 

[JOJONumber691]

So Sephiroth was inevitable. Got it. If they were only going to add VII, maybe the the series icon the ****ING METEOR!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So Sephiroth was inevitable. Got it. If they were only going to add VII, maybe the the series icon the ****ING METEOR!

You're equivocating a lot of different ideas.

I'm not even sure what your main point is anymore.

 

[Will]

You're equivocating a lot of different ideas.

I'm not even sure what your main point is anymore.

Friday nights, am I right?

 

[Noipoi]

Friday nights, am I right?

It’s 12 in the morning

At least on the East Coast

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Speaking of Ganondorf, I have replayed Ocarina of Time recently.
Three things stood out to me:

1. Sheik really is the main sidekick here (well, aside from Navi), I forgot how often she shows up. Even does some stuff off-screen like saving Ruto from the ice and inspecting the well before Bongo Bongo escapes. There's also some emotional weight to her; Link briefly meets up again with his friends from when he was a kid but they all die/transcend as Sages (really feels like they die while you play through the game), with the exception of Zelda who's nowhere to be seen. Sheik is the closest thing to a friend he has as an adult. Yet, basically all of their interactions end with Link trying to reach out to Sheik and Sheik vanishing. Ocarina of Time is a very sad game under the hood... Maybe that's why the final reveal that Sheik was Zelda all along still hits. Well, I've rambled, but yeah back in 2002 Sheik was far from a random character.

2. While the finale is overall still spectacular, man Ganondorf's fight is kinda lame. He just floats in place and throws at you one ball of light at a time
There really wasn't much to work with for Smash, but it's still enough of a starting point to not end up as a Falcon clone. However, he starts the fight by punching the ground so hard he destroys the floor. That's a decent basis for his super strong shtick. You can even headcanon Warlock Punch to be a reworked version of that punch. Plus he never used a sword at any point in OoT! - he did as Ganon but that's besides the point. The hand-to-hand fighting style wasn't that bad of a fit for him, I think.
And at that time he was mostly a one-off prequel villain explaining where Ganon came from, you can kinda see why he wasn't chosen over Zelda and Sheik. Sheik was basically just as important as him in OoT itself, Zelda of course showed up in more than one game, none of the three actually did much fighting, and Zelda + Sheik offered the transformation mechanic.
Still, I think even at the time you could see how making Ganondorf a Falcon clone wasn't going to age particularly well, but eh. Felt more kinda weird than anything.

3. Man what a game. It still holds up so many years later. And the story is so good! Modern Zeldas really miss a good story. Can't wait to dive back into Majora's Mask as well.

 

[---]

I got a warning for bring up Android 21 as a pick considered derailment and "spam" and yet, others are still bring her up pages and pages later yet nothing happens.

Curious

For clarity, it should probably be stated here as well that mentions of 4th Party characters are not necessarily "spam." The greater issue is when arguments between multiple users derail threads for multiple pages. If you wish to discuss warnings you have received further, Staff DMs are always open.


If people would like though, the rules of the thread can always be updated.

 

[Lenidem]

Speaking of Ganondorf, I have replayed Ocarina of Time recently.
Three things stood out to me:

1. Sheik really is the main sidekick here (well, aside from Navi), I forgot how often she shows up. Even does some stuff off-screen like saving Ruto from the ice and inspecting the well before Bongo Bongo escapes. There's also some emotional weight to her; Link briefly meets up again with his friends from when he was a kid but they all die/transcend as Sages (really feels like they die while you play through the game), with the exception of Zelda who's nowhere to be seen. Sheik is the closest thing to a friend he has as an adult. Yet, basically all of their interactions end with Link trying to reach out to Sheik and Sheik vanishing. Ocarina of Time is a very sad game under the hood... Maybe that's why the final reveal that Sheik was Zelda all along still hits. Well, I've rambled, but yeah back in 2002 Sheik was far from a random character.

2. While the finale is overall still spectacular, man Ganondorf's fight is kinda lame. He just floats in place and throws at you one ball of light at a time
There really wasn't much to work with for Smash, but it's still enough of a starting point to not end up as a Falcon clone. However, he starts the fight by punching the ground so hard he destroys the floor. That's a decent basis for his super strong shtick. You can even headcanon Warlock Punch to be a reworked version of that punch. Plus he never used a sword at any point in OoT! - he did as Ganon but that's besides the point. The hand-to-hand fighting style wasn't that bad of a fit for him, I think.
And at that time he was mostly a one-off prequel villain explaining where Ganon came from, you can kinda see why he wasn't chosen over Zelda and Sheik. Sheik was basically just as important as him in OoT itself, Zelda of course showed up in more than one game, none of the three actually did much fighting, and Zelda + Sheik offered the transformation mechanic.
Still, I think even at the time you could see how making Ganondorf a Falcon clone wasn't going to age particularly well, but eh. Felt more kinda weird than anything.

3. Man what a game. It still holds up so many years later. And the story is so good! Modern Zeldas really miss a good story. Can't wait to dive back into Majora's Mask as well.

I agree with your whole post. Sheik is way more important in OoT than Smash-fans give him credit for, and when Ganondorf turned out to be a Falcon-clone in Melee, everybody thought that was extremely weird.

 

[Oracle Link]

Here's my first attempt at a hypothetical Smash 6 Roster, I admit its got issues with there being too many newcomers and too conservative on cuts but I just can't really think of others to cut, I need some outside input on where to go with this. Yellow characters are new Echoes. Noah and Mio are like Ice Climbers mixed with Pyra and Mythra in that they both fight together but you can change the way they function by swapping the leadView attachment 385667

I would replace young link with toon link or just have a "small Link" Slot! Thats good! i would add a second zelda charakter if you ask for my unbiased opinion i would say Skullkid/ Majora is a good villain choice, Yunobo or daruk are a good choice for a goron rep and lastly midna is the most popular companion pick one of those and youre good!
Than 2 opinions regarding kirby!
1. that bwd picture is pretty ugly usually i use the 2nd one that looks less weird!
and 2. i think considering that mario and sonic got two new comers i think Magolor would be cool
I do come from a kirby and zelda perspective but we didnt get much love during smash 4 and ultimate so thats why!

 

[fogbadge]

Something I’ve been meaning to ask, may sound a little off topic but it’ll tie back into smash: has there ever been a character in a fighting game who got taller between instalments? Like say they were a child in one game and then older In another

 

[Gengar84]

Something I’ve been meaning to ask, may sound a little off topic but it’ll tie back into smash: has there ever been a character in a fighting game who got taller between instalments? Like say they were a child in one game and then older In another

I could be wrong but I feel like Glacius might be taller in Killer Instinct 2013 than it is in the classic games. Ike from Brawl to Smash 4 is another.

 

[fogbadge]

I could be wrong but I feel like Glacius might be taller in Killer Instinct 2013 than it is in the classic games. Ike from Brawl to Smash 4 is another.

so there’s hope for villager yet

 

[RileyXY1]

Here's my first attempt at a hypothetical Smash 6 Roster, I admit its got issues with there being too many newcomers and too conservative on cuts but I just can't really think of others to cut, I need some outside input on where to go with this. Yellow characters are new Echoes. Noah and Mio are like Ice Climbers mixed with Pyra and Mythra in that they both fight together but you can change the way they function by swapping the leadView attachment 385667

I don't think that any Square Enix characters will be in the base roster unless they do "Everyone is Here" a second time.

 

[Shinuto]

I don't think that any Square Enix characters will be in the base roster unless they do "Everyone is Here" a second time.

my roster isnt a base its meant to be a full final roster after everything.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Except it's impossible to disprove a negative.

No matter how much a thing doesn't happen, someone can always just say "Hasn't happened YET." Regardless of how unlikely it becomes that it's ever going to happen.

Shouldn’t that mean it is impossible to disprove a negative, too?

Anyway, thing is, I do believe I was not talking about negatives in the sense you were talking about. Either way, we should be more open to possibilities like Master Chief being in Smash rather than being doubtful. A lot of so called “rules” by fans like the “have to be on an Nintendo console” one (maybe, but I don’t think Sakurai said that. He did say something about Smash being a celebration of gaming, after all) have been disproven. Why focus on rules that can be disproven when it is better to be open about the possibilities?

 

[Guynamednelson]

He did say something about Smash being a celebration of gaming, after all

In a presentation about Byleth. If he said it there, it clearly doesn't mean "we are going to prioritize adding characters from every single genre/company".

 

[Lionfranky]

For the purpose of keeping expectations in check, it is wise to assume that a steadfast pattern does mean something until it is broken. I actively want characters like Chai and Sly Cooper - but I'm not deluded into thinking they have a chance because the facts point to them not having a ghost of one. Until I see Kratos or Master Chief in the game, first-party exclusives with console exclusivity are a no-go, and I'm going to continue to treat them as a no-go. We got some crazy picks during Ultimate, but people should at least temper their expectations. 10 years ago ya'll would've laughed at the prospect of Chief or Kratos in Smash, but the second a surprising character gets in, everyone jumps to "ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN". Ya'll need to keep your speculation brain in check.

Funny. Hi-fi Rush was announced for Switch... Are you seriously going to suggest that they will priotize Chai over Master Chief?

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

In a presentation about Byleth. If he said it there, it clearly doesn't mean "we are going to prioritize adding characters from every single genre/company".

Who said anything about prioritizing everything, though?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Who said anything about prioritizing everything, though?

Well no one, but either way I think the whole "celebration of gaming" thing is grossly misinterpreted by the community if one of the places Sakurai called Smash one is the presentation for the eighth Fire Emblem character.

 

[SuperSonicFlyer]

Well no one, but either way I think the whole "celebration of gaming" thing is grossly misinterpreted by the community if one of the places Sakurai called Smash one is the presentation for the eighth Fire Emblem character.

Maybe I should have worded what I said better, but that post I made; that was not truly about what Sakurai may have said. You just quoted that part of the post. That is all.

 

[Lionfranky]

Doom Slayer at least has one thing going for him beyond Nintendo connection. His game pioneered the genre. I'm sure what I'm about to say is going to piss off Halo fans but outside of multiplayer, Halo didn't really do anything crazy to further the medium.

Halo did way more than just multiplayer. It literally defined modern shooters. Regenerating health, modern shooter controller schematic, two weapon system, separate buttons for grenade and melee. If you say these were done before Halo, I can say the same to Doom.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve probably said mostly the same thing before but I thought I’d try to clarify my stance a bit. As far the requirement that a character has to have appeared on a Nintendo console, I think we need to stop and think what the purpose of that restriction is if it even exists. In my view, the only reasons something like that would make any sense are either to increase the chance that Nintendo fans are familiar with the character or if Nintendo wanted to celebrate a part of their history.

With a character as iconic as Master Chief, I don’t think you have to worry about the first part. He was technically present on a Nintendo console through a skin in Minecraft but that doesn’t really help with the second goal either. Same goes for other major characters with minor appearances on Nintendo platforms. In essence, I think those minor appearances are kind of irrelevant to the decision. If Chief makes it in, I don’t think his Minecraft skin will have anything to do with it. Similarly, I feel like Cloud would have made it in with or without his appearance in Theatrhythm or other minor cameos.

I think a lot of people are too focused on sticking to some kind of pattern without stopping to ask why. I feel this way about many aspects of Smash speculation. Patterns are broken pretty regularly throughout the series so I don’t put too much stock in them. Just because something hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it can’t.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think a lot of people are too focused on sticking to some kind of pattern without stopping to ask why. I feel this way about many aspects of Smash speculation. Patterns are broken pretty regularly throughout the series so I don’t put too much stock in them. Just because something hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it can’t.

Well to be fair, I don't think the "the next character can only be one of these five, anything else is impossible and it would suck if they somehow got in" mindset ever went away, the five characters just got swapped.

...but one of those new five is now Master Chief.

 

[Gengar84]

I will say that in Master Chief’s specific case, he does have some strong competition from a nearly equally iconic character that actually does have Nintendo history in Doom Slayer. While Chief is still a strong contender in my view, that history might give Doom Slayer the edge in terms of priority. Someone like Fulgore is on the opposite end of the spectrum from Chief in that he has a particularly strong history with Nintendo but is less generally recognized over all. All three of them have valid reasons for being chosen with Fulgore and Chief at the ends and Doom Slayer basically taking the middle ground. I’d put Crash in the same spot as Doom Slayer in this scenario so he’s another solid choice. Someone like Arthas or Kerrigan would be in the same spot as Master Chief.

Basically, there are a ton of great options and each could be chosen for a variety of reasons. I don’t think there’s one set criteria that makes a character a viable choice.

 

[JOJONumber691]

You're equivocating a lot of different ideas.

I'm not even sure what your main point is anymore.

It meant I wanted to go to bed lmao.

 

[Kirbeh]

These last few pages were certainly something. Only thing I feel like addressing is Arms though.

I'm glad Min Min made it in, but it is a bit annoying that any time Arms representation gets mentioned, it's always accompanied by trashing on Spring Man.

If you find his visual design boring compared to the rest of the Arms cast that's fine, he is deliberately meant to be more basic after all.

But let's not pretend like he, or any Arms character, are lacking when it comes to interesting moveset potential. Which is the real shame here imo.

They went for Min Min and still chose to give her the most basic move set possible. I get that it was another case of trying to represent the gameplay of the home series, but there was so much more they could have done with the "stretchy arms kung fu girl" angle.

And that's not even getting into her individual arms. The dragon arm alone could have been used for a few different moves.

That's of course a debate on strictly accurate portrayal vs creative liberty. And honestly I think both have their place, though the right balance will differ by character and individual preference I suppose.

 

[Louie G.]

But let's not pretend like he, or any Arms character, are lacking when it comes to interesting moveset potential. Which is the real shame here imo.

They went for Min Min and still chose to give her the most basic move set possible. I get that it was another case of trying to represent the gameplay of the home series, but there was so much more they could have done with the "stretchy arms kung fu girl" angle.

And that's not even getting into her individual arms. The dragon arm alone could have been used for a few different moves.

That's of course a debate on strictly accurate portrayal vs creative liberty. And honestly I think both have their place, though the right balance will differ by character and individual preference I suppose.

Yeah I meant to tap into this but decided to just leave it positive regarding how fun I think Min Min's visual design is and how much that conveys the unique charm of her game. I don't think I trashed Spring Man's moveset potential, and I like his design in a vacuum. Don't remember how many other posts there were about it but I have no beef with Spring Man, just think Min Min is a more compelling choice.

Unfortunately yeah, outside of Min Min's kicks, her moveset was built to be as exchangeable as possible with any other ARMS character. I do still believe Min Min was the ideal choice with those kicks in mind, it makes her moveset marginally more diverse, but the lack of creative execution of such a defining character trait is a real shame. I'm not totally sure how I'd rework her, or if I anticipate it, but we deserved to have our Dhalsim in Smash and instead we got a faithful-to-a-fault portrayal of a deliberately simple video game. It's the same trap the likes of Sonic or Olimar get into, where these characters are boring as a result of their authenticity. I don't like to discourage Smash's creativity but sometimes I would just rather they try to play it straight and build a character around the unique strengths of Smash rather than trying to recreate the game in Smash to varying results.

And I mean, it's one thing for a beloved series like Street Fighter and Minecraft and another for ARMS. I don't think anyone would have been that devastated that Min Min wouldn't play like she was lifted directly from the game, unlike series that have such a clearly defined identity already.