Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Stratos]

I had given up on the idea of Rare returning to Nintendo, but with the first Banjo-Kazooie game returning via Nintendo Switch Online two years ago, and the Snake Rattle 'n' Roll games, R.C. Pro-Am, Battletoads in Battlemaniacs, Killer Instinct and Blast Corps recently appearing on Nintendo Switch Online as well, I have a feeling (although I'm not at all hopeful) that Rare will return to Nintendo, i.e. that Microsoft will sell Rare back to Nintendo and I'm writing this because I think Rare's games are a better fit for Nintendo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I had given up on the idea of Rare returning to Nintendo, but with the first Banjo-Kazooie game returning via Nintendo Switch Online two years ago, and the Snake Rattle 'n' Roll games, R.C. Pro-Am, Battletoads in Battlemaniacs, Killer Instinct and Blast Corps recently appearing on Nintendo Switch Online as well, I have a feeling (although I'm not at all hopeful) that Rare will return to Nintendo, i.e. that Microsoft will sell Rare back to Nintendo and I'm writing this because I think Rare's games are a better fit for Nintendo.

Keep in mind, Rare has had some major success with Sea of Thieves. It's very much not a Nintendo game.

 

[Stratos]

Keep in mind, Rare has had some major success with Sea of Thieves. It's very much not a Nintendo game.

That's right.

 

[Ivander]

I don't see Microsoft selling Rare back to Nintendo. Far from it. But if Microsoft does get Rare to do another Banjo-Kazooie game and they go through with it, I can certainly see them doing a multi-console release for Xbox and Nintendo, since Banjo-Kazooie clearly has an audience with Nintendo fans.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t really expect Microsoft to sell RARE back to Nintendo, though that would be awesome. More realistically, I’d love to see all future RARE games and games using their IP be released on both Microsoft and Nintendo consoles. If Microsoft does eventually drop out of the console race I think Nintendo is definitely the best home for RARE at that point.

 

[Noipoi]

At this point the Rare that existed when they were with Nintendo is long gone, selling them back wouldn’t bring the glory days back.

Not to mention that they’re doing pretty well for themselves, so there’s really no need.

 

[Louie G.]

I had given up on the idea of Rare returning to Nintendo, but with the first Banjo-Kazooie game returning via Nintendo Switch Online two years ago, and the Snake Rattle 'n' Roll games, R.C. Pro-Am, Battletoads in Battlemaniacs, Killer Instinct and Blast Corps recently appearing on Nintendo Switch Online as well, I have a feeling (although I'm not at all hopeful) that Rare will return to Nintendo, i.e. that Microsoft will sell Rare back to Nintendo and I'm writing this because I think Rare's games are a better fit for Nintendo.

Rare is a different company now than it was 20 years ago. It's very unlikely that it will exchange hands once again, or that either company has serious interest in even buying / selling its legacy IPs. But I do believe given Microsoft's strong cooperative relationship with Nintendo right now, Banjo's inclusion in Smash and the Rare games coming to NSO that there is a direct initiative to let this legacy content be accessible on Nintendo consoles where it belongs.

Anything regarding future releases is yet to be seen, although I also wouldn't be holding my breath about a new Banjo or Conker game. Maybe if we eventually got a new Perfect Dark or Killer Instinct it could see a release on a Nintendo console, but I feel like it would just end up being playable on every console if Microsoft is serious about going multi-plat or putting Game Pass on everything. Sea of Thieves might end up on Switch too from what we've been hearing.

 

[Gengar84]

Nintendo needs to buy both RARE and Playtonic and merge the companies so we can have the old team back with their original IP’s .

 

[Stratos]

While the first game in the Conker series Conker's Pocket Tales was kid friendly, from Conker's Bad Fur Day onwards they made the series for a more mature audience, releasing as a second game Twelve Tales: Conker 64 and this change they did it because Twelve Tales: Conker 64 had been criticized for its child-friendly tone and similarity to Banjo-Kazooie. In my opinion, I'd rather they release Twelve Tales: Conker 64 so that they continue to make Conker games that are kid-friendly rather than the adult video game series they've already done.

 

[RouffWestie]

While the first game in the Conker series Conker's Pocket Tales was kid friendly, from Conker's Bad Fur Day onwards they made the series for a more mature audience, releasing as a second game Twelve Tales: Conker 64 and this change they did it because Twelve Tales: Conker 64 had been criticized for its child-friendly tone and similarity to Banjo-Kazooie. In my opinion, I'd rather they release Twelve Tales: Conker 64 so that they continue to make Conker games that are kid-friendly rather than the adult video game series they've already done.

Oh but kid-fiendly Conker did come back. Remember?

 

[fogbadge]

At this point the Rare that existed when they were with Nintendo is long gone, selling them back wouldn’t bring the glory days back.

Not to mention that they’re doing pretty well for themselves, so there’s really no need.

that’s true of most companies

 

[Stratos]

Oh but kid-fiendly Conker did come back. Remember?

Now that you write it and showed me the video, yes I remember.

 

[7NATOR]

I do think it's a bit more of an uphill climb for another character to make it without sheer Banjo levels of support, putting it lightly, but with how openly Microsoft has been supportive of bringing Rare back to Nintendo I wonder if they would suggest it themselves. Like hey, we'll give you Banjo back and you can do whatever the hell you want with these guys. I can see that happening to varying results - maybe one ends up an AT, a few costumes, we get a bunch of scattered Rare spirits, etc.

As far as a playable character goes, never say never I suppose. I do think with the wealth of options available from Microsoft the likes of Killer Instinct and co. might not be the highest priority, but I would gladly welcome a repeat of last game like you mentioned earlier. One character gets in through their rich history with Nintendo, the other gets in as a massive gaming icon in their own right. There are more than enough great characters to choose from.

Beyond just the history with Nintendo and Rare replay, and that the characters are Cool I could see Some Rare characters getting in as DLC, perhaps to help Supplement having someone like Master Chief in Base

I would think Nintendo would prioritize Master Chief the most of all the characters, and I think being able to Advertise with Master Chief in the Base game might actually go a long way for the game. I do know Microsoft wants some of that DLC money, so maybe especially since they have Franchises like Killer Instinct, Perfect Dark, Battletoads, in addition to having Activision/Blizzard to choose from

On that note feels like folks really underestimate the importance of characters with a solid distinct game play hook. Like even the most basic non-semi clone newcomers in Ultimate Ridley and K.Rool have some more mechanically complex stuff going on compared to 64 and Melee's characters with the instakill attack and blunderbus respectively.

I could see the Next Smash being like Smash 4, which I think Had the Base game Newcomers with the most unique and/or Complex Mechanics and Playstyles in the series

I think if the Next Switch is powerful enough, This could allow Ideas that were not possible on the Wii U/3DS and maybe even the Switch to be tried again. Especially since the Next Smash is set to use a New Engine that seems plenty powerful. Also without the task of having to bring every character back again (even if they do, Everyone has HD Assets to use again), this would allow more focus on Newcomers

I do hope there are Simple Newcomers in the game though. I do like Ultimate's Base game Newcomers are more Simple in terms of how to operate them, while still having Unique Quirks to set them apart.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as Nintendo buying Rare, it's worth noting that the former is very, very selective about which developers it chooses to acquire and that Nintendo chose not to buy the latter in 2001/2002 when they were at their most acclaimed and despite Rare wanting them to. If they wouldn't do it then, it makes even less now when Nintendo has plenty of supporting studios internally and externally to work on various IP's. I mean given their tendency to keep any kind of excess staff to a minimum (note that they're the biggest game company in the last year to not lay off employees) it's not hard to imagine the policy being to work with Rare if they can through Microsoft than even consider acquiring them.

 

[cashregister9]

From what I know at this point Rare just makes the games they want to make.

Only making Banjo games wouldn't "Fix" anything or anyone, it would probably just be worse for everyone.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Nintendo buying back Rare will never happen, but getting their legacy stuff and new games that fit on Nintendo's consoles + Banjo and whoever else in Smash is... Well as far as consumers are concerned there's not much difference.
The Nintendo/Rare relationship somehow pivoted from the darkest timeline into a pretty decent one

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think people overrate Master Chief's realistic chances. Did y'all not notice that every piece of Microsoft content we got had at very minimum been on Nintendo at least at some point? Yes, even Fallout.

No, a costume in Minecraft or Fortnite doesn't count. Those are skins for the characters of those games, not the actual character.

Even Joker and Cloud did have in-series appearances on Nintendo first (even if they were spinoffs) and neither are direct console competitor first party games.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There have been and there will be numerous debates about whether a Nintendo game appearance (and what that constitutes) is necessary for Smash fighter selection until that perceived prerequisite is broken in a very clear way... but I think for many fans if there was a character significant enough to be an exception, it would be Master Chief. Whether that's the case I don't know; it's very clear that large numbers do believe it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fortnite is a bit different since it's treated as the character canonically being in the story. Minecraft is a cameo in comparison. However, let's also note that it was the Halo Mash-Up Pack that got on the Nintendo version of Minecraft, something not even the PlayStation version got. So that's actually pretty big in terms of how well Microsoft and Nintendo work together.

Overall, yes, it counts. We also know a Nintendo appearance isn't required, but really damn nice to have. In this case, Master Chief still has it(even without Minecraft alone, Fortnite sealed it the second it's treated as the actual character, not just a skin). So it's not a cameo in FN. It's only a cameo in Minecraft(barely one, though, due to it being a full pack. It's treated as a much bigger thing than a simple cameo, but it's a glorified one at that point).

His chances are still good, but business can still matter. If no plans for Halo to come to a Nintendo console is a thing, this could make him less desirable too, since it's automatic advertising. Banjo-Kazooie is a unique case where it was a Nintendo game at one point, and Sakurai was still able to directly promote Microsoft anyway. Master Chief however is a much more modern character, and they had already cancelled a planned Halo game at one point. Why is this relevant? It means they might not want Halo directly to appear on Nintendo. Does that actually mean a character is impossible? No. It just means it's harder to see Nintendo agreeing from the details we have.

 

[dream1ng]

Logistically, there's no reason to believe MS has any interest in selling its subsidiaries. Equally important, there's no reason to believe Nintendo would be interested enough in Rare to purchase them even if MS were. Licensing their old games is not the same.

People see Nintendo reclaiming Rare as the beginning of Rare just picking up where they left off in 2002. But it's a very different company now, with an almost entirely different staff. While I do think Banjo returning would be likelier under Nintendo, you're not going to get that dream output you envision.

Thankfully, we're basically at the point where we're getting as much from a Nintendo/Rare relationship as is realistic in 2024. We're getting their old games on the NSO, more will come, getting their current games seems to be in the cards, and we got the character people wanted most from them in Smash. That's far more than you could've expected for the better part of the 20+ years since their buyout.

Plus, NCL & EPD finally seem like they've accepted Rare's contributions to the DK IP are fundamental, and are embracing them.

All things considered, Rare has shifted from (reluctant) competitor back to collaborative partner, so even without being a facet of Nintendo, nor with that being something to again ever realistically expect, there's a lot to be happy about.

 

[Louie G.]

Even Joker and Cloud did have in-series appearances on Nintendo first (even if they were spinoffs) and neither are direct console competitor first party games.

And none of those games have any content in Smash Ultimate, only the ones that weren’t on Nintendo consoles (yet). These arguments would hold a lot more weight if Persona Q2 had even a sliver of representation in Smash, but it doesn’t. I have a very difficult time taking this argument seriously anymore.

Microsoft extending further into multi-plat and Sakurai literally just outright said by Banjo-Kazooie on Xbox. Them being a console competitor makes no difference, and by that logic they had no right promoting titles exclusive to Playstation either. It’s not a relevant argument.

I’m not going to change any minds with these sort of arguments at this point, so I’m not going to really waste my energy with it any further. Everyone can believe what they will and Halo will probably be on the Switch 2 and render the whole thing void anyway. Just kind of an exhausting conversation with wholly unconvincing arguments hinging on loose exceptions through games nobody played.

For what it’s worth, I don’t blame anyone for being hesitant about it. “I’ll believe it when I see it” is a perfectly valid stance to have about this kind of thing. I just think the more arguments are made about it the more cracks reveal themselves here. We put way more weight on Theatrhtyhm Final Fantasy and Persona Q2 than even the companies who made them at this point.

 

[BritishGuy54]

With the discussion around Rare, it’s clear Rare is a different company than they once were, and that’s fine. Nintendo didn’t buy Rare in 2002, and they were bought by Microsoft.

Perhaps we get Banjo-Tooie, Diddy Kong Racing, and maybe Conker on NSO at some point. As someone who mainly grew up with Nintendo with the DS/Wii onwards, it’s nice to see aspects of older eras still get recognition nowadays.

As for Microsoft characters in Smash… I’m unsure. I think they can end up being DLC again, or not present at all. I’d say Steve has more priority over Banjo, if I had to choose. I’m not actively expecting them.

Microsoft is dabbling more into multi-platform endeavours, which will need a few more years at least to see how that turns out.

Perhaps next Smash could be a situation where the supply of resources that Sakurai and co. is provided can’t meet the demand of the public, and even willing third party partners themselves, especially after Ultimate.

 

[dream1ng]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I think people overrate Master Chief's realistic chances. Did y'all not notice that every piece of Microsoft content we got had at very minimum been on Nintendo at least at some point? Yes, even Fallout.

No, a costume in Minecraft or Fortnite doesn't count. Those are skins for the characters of those games, not the actual character.

Even Joker and Cloud did have in-series appearances on Nintendo first (even if they were spinoffs) and neither are direct console competitor first party games.

The problem with this is no one who says they do count or they don't count actually speaks from authority. It's all guesswork and we don't know.

So people are going to keep the option on the table until there's definitive reason to remove it. Which, atm, there isn't.

The reason Sakurai's statements seem to leave it as a grey area is probably exactly on the off chance it happens. If Nintendo wants a character they can overrule whatever Sakurai's ideology is anyway. Years ago Sakurai used to speak negatively on DLC, believing the full package should arrive in the base game, now Smash has years of DLC. Sakurai does believe there's an excess of sword characters, and since that statement, five more got revealed.

Sakurai does have some authority, obviously, but of all the hills to die on, I'm not sure Master Chief would be one.

I'm also going to theorize that if MS and Nintendo strike a deal for Chief in Smash, MS, now less restrictive of exclusivity, and with Halo having been toyed with multiple times to come to a Nintendo system, would capitalize on the attention with some sort of port. Especially since the IP's reputation is starting to flag a bit. Which I suppose, frustratingly, would keep this question in flux.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Years ago Sakurai used to speak negatively on DLC, believing the full package should arrive in the base game, now Smash has years of DLC.

He spoke against business practices of selling unfinished content as "premium DLC", not DLC as a whole.
In fact, in the same discussion, he would point out that the DLC for Smash is "authentic" in being made after the "finished" product.

 

[dream1ng]

He spoke against business practices of selling unfinished content as "premium DLC", not DLC as a whole.
In fact, in the same discussion, he would point out that the DLC for Smash is "authentic" in being made after the "finished" product.

If he's talking about Smash's DLC then this statement comes after the one I'm talking about, which predated Smash getting DLC.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If he's talking about Smash's DLC then this statement comes after the one I'm talking about, which predated Smash getting DLC.

Provide source. Because I can't find anything on Sakurai saying anything negative on DLC barring what I posted days ago where he calls (then) current DLC practices a "scam".

Which for sake of convenience I'll post again.

Sakurai on DLC: “It’s All About Making Players Happy”

Here’s a full translation of Based Sakurai’s latest article in this month’s Famitsu. He talks about DLC in Sm4sh, offering a little insight into how it came to be and what he and …

sourcegaming.info

 

[dream1ng]

Provide source. Because I can't find anything on Sakurai saying anything negative on DLC barring what I posted days ago where he calls (then) current DLC practices a "scam".

Which for sake of convenience I'll post again.

Sakurai on DLC: “It’s All About Making Players Happy”

Here’s a full translation of Based Sakurai’s latest article in this month’s Famitsu. He talks about DLC in Sm4sh, offering a little insight into how it came to be and what he and …

sourcegaming.info

I mean, it's over ten years old and wasn't from a conversation about Smash - I wouldn't know where to begin looking at this point. If you want to disregard because I can't give you a source that's fine, it was tangential to my argument.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I don't think Microsoft selling Rare back to Nintendo would make a big difference; like some have said, the Rare Nintendo sold 20 years ago is not the same Rare we have today.

I do, however, would be VERY interested to see Microsoft sell the rights to specifically the Banjo-Kazooie series to Nintendo. It'll realistically never happen, but come on: imagine a Banjo title being worked on by the magic touch of an in-house Nintendo development team, or heck, maybe one of their subsidiaries like Next Level Games or Retro Studios.

 

[Schnee117]

It's always funny when people put a tremendous amount of importance on a game Atlus couldn't even be bothered to dub for the western release (even though the English dubs are why the majority of western fans even love the Persona casts) and that most people don't even know about, except to go "no but Joker had a Nintendo appearance see"

 

[Wonder Smash]

Sakurai clearly has a certain feeling about a character's appearance on a Nintendo console before appearing in Smash, so he does consider that when looking at them. And even the person behind 2B mentioned how he wished she was on a Nintendo console in time to be in Smash.

I also don't get the comparison that's made with Cloud and Joker when Master Chief is brought up. Even if people bring up Minecraft and Fortnite, where there were costumes/skins of the character, that's still significantly less than what Cloud and Joker had, which are legit appearances in games from their series. Heck, right after they appeared in Smash, even more games in both of their series that featured them started popping up on Nintendo consoles. Master Chief still does not have a single game from his series on them. His situation is just not like the others.

 

[fogbadge]

Sakurai on DLC: “It’s All About Making Players Happy”

Here’s a full translation of Based Sakurai’s latest article in this month’s Famitsu. He talks about DLC in Sm4sh, offering a little insight into how it came to be and what he and …

sourcegaming.info

particular if that player is himself

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

particular if that player is himself

Can you stop?

 

[Wonder Smash]

It's always funny when people put a tremendous amount of importance on a game Atlus couldn't even be bothered to dub for the western release (even though the English dubs are why the majority of western fans even love the Persona casts) and that most people don't even know about, except to go "no but Joker had a Nintendo appearance see"

But...that was his Nintendo appearance, so what's so funny about that?

 

[dream1ng]

I've just followed Smash long enough that if something is a grey area, seems unwise to proclaim it can't happen.

particular if that player is himself

you sound like the kind of person who thinks he chose to add byleth because he likes fire emblem

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It would be amusing if the Nintendo console appearance rule was hard broken in the future by the most WTF of characters:

"Reflecting the wishes of our fans, for the first time Super Smash Bros will have a fighter that has never appeared in a Nintendo console release before. They've been a long time coming and I'm proud to announce the addition of...

"Fargus from Pandemonium!"

 

[Louie G.]

But...that was his Nintendo appearance, so what's so funny about that?

If that game was so important to getting Joker in Smash, you would think his content might pay it more mind? That’s the funny part, if anything.

I think the fact that nothing about Joker, his stage, his music or his spirits have anything to do with this one late stage 3DS game he had to his name. It wasn’t mentioned in his showcase, it wasn’t promoted alongside the character. And mind you, it came out barely a week before he was revealed for Smash.

 

[Schnee117]

Sakurai clearly has a certain feeling about a character's appearance on a Nintendo console before appearing in Smash, so he does consider that when looking at them. And even the person behind 2B mentioned how he wished she was on a Nintendo console in time to be in Smash.

I also don't get the comparison that's made with Cloud and Joker when Master Chief is brought up. Even if people bring up Minecraft and Fortnite, where there were costumes/skins of the character,. that's still significantly less than what Cloud and Joker had, which are legit appearances in games from their series. Heck, right after appeared in Smash, even more games in the theirs series that featured them started popping up on Nintendo consoles. Master Chief still does not have a single game from his series on them. His situation is not like the others.

The "clear feeling" in question when he was last asked about this... 8 years ago.

I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though.

He doesn't commit.

But...that was his Nintendo appearance, so what's so funny about that?

Because you're putting importance onto a niche spin-off that got a late western release and no english dub.
A game that isn't referenced in Smash at all, no spirits, no music, nothing. A game that Atlus didn't really care to put money into.

It's irrelevant to Joker getting in. Joker got in because Persona 5 was a huge hit.

If that game was so important to getting Joker in Smash, you would think his content might pay it more mind? That’s the funny part, if anything.

I think the fact that nothing about Joker, his stage, his music or his spirits have anything to do with this one late stage 3DS game he had to his name. It wasn’t mentioned in his showcase, it wasn’t promoted alongside the character. And mind you, it came out barely a week before he was revealed for Smash.

Said release was also Japan only too so for most of the audience, and particularly the crowd Joker was revealed for, it wasn't out yet.

 

[fogbadge]

Can you stop?

I don’t see why I should

you sound like the kind of person who thinks he chose to add byleth because he likes fire emblem

Oh yeah byleth got in

 

[dream1ng]

I don’t see why I should



Oh yeah byleth got in

oh you're just saying **** for attention

got it

 

[Louie G.]

Again, I wouldn’t really mind if people shrugged at the not-on-Nintendo thing and said eh, I just don’t see it happening. It’s honestly a pretty level headed response to simply wait until an existing precedent is broken. Our stance is the radical one, currently.

But it’s all this rallying behind the most unimportant games that bothers me. The content in Smash itself sends the message - if they cared that much about what’s on Nintendo and what isn’t, they’d do a better job telegraphing that within Smash itself and during the character’s respective presentation. Instead, base FF7 got all the love before it was ever on a Nintendo console and Persona 3-5 got ample content with nothing from SMT or the Q games to be seen.

Prior to these characters inclusion, if I argued Joker will get in because he’s got a spinoff game on 3DS I would be laughed at by many. It’s only now that he’s in the game that this is suddenly a big deal, and that his addition is retroactively justified. There’s a reason none of us were expecting him, and fishing for these trivial excuses is why we’ll continue to get it wrong.