Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

Smash IS about pushing whatever console it's on to its limit regardless. That's why they did 8-Player Smash as soon as it was viable, and why there can now be 2 ATs active on the Switch instead of one.

It didn't live up to its potential because of the resources that had to be spent on third-party licensing and the roster being huge as-is. Even if the passes weren't about abusing the everliving hell out of third-party hype I'm sure we'd only get 11 more fighters from them so as to not stress out the devs too much.

Please don't start the damn first party vs third party war again.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Please don't start the damn first party vs third party war again.

This implies the war never stopped...

 

[SKX31]

Regarding the whole "characters should be reinterpretations instead of taking mechanics from their own games"... largely, I don't really agree. If you want Mega Man except a majority of his moves are punches and kicks, I'm not really certain why you would want Mega Man.

However, I do agree that a lot of people tend to undervalue aesthetic cohesion in a moveset. It's easy to pick and choose from a big list of references and try and cram in as much as possible, but if you do that too much in the wrong way you end up with a character that feels less like themselves instead of more. Imagine if every single one of Link's moves used a different item from the games. What is he then? He's barely a swordsman.

In other words, a moveset doesn't just need to say "look, it's this character", it needs to answer the question "who is this character?".

There's another point on which I kind of agree - I feel like a fair number of official movesets we've gotten recently have had mechanics that don't... actually need to be there? Like, if you lop them off, the movesets are perfectly fine and still representative of the character, but for some reason they just have this additional thing to them.

• Why does Inkling have limited ink? Is having limited ammo really that important of an aspect of Splatoon?
• Does Sephiroth actually need to have One-Winged Form? He feels completely fine without it.
• Why does Kazuya have a Rage Drive, a mechanic introduced 20 years into the series, when his moveset is pretty stacked as it is?
• Why does Cloud have a Limit Gauge? Aren't his specials already Limits?
• What are they going for with King K. Rool's weird belly armor management mechanic? Why can it crack? It seems like a weird thing to focus on when a lot of people kind of forgot his belly was supposed to even have armor for a while.
• Why does Joker's Persona... work like that? Like, at all? That's not how it works. It's just, like, made up. It's been squeezed into the mold of a comeback mechanic when that's really not what it is.

While I'm obviously not one of the developers - as such I can only speculate really - I can at the very least point to some of the mechanics and origin games:

Most comeback mechanics are probably meant to shore up a gameplay weakness and / or give something of a gameplay "hook". Lucario's a good example where that took preference over source material accuracy: sure, most of Lucario's attacks don't look that impressive or unique, but the visibly-growing Aura Sphere and general "If I survive to 120+ % you die if I even touch you" mentality (which Force Palm emphasizes by becoming a giant punch of death) is supposed to be the "hook".

:

Sephiroth and Cloud both draw some inspiration from Dissidia, and while it doesn't show much in their attacks (Sephiroth has a few, Cloud has mainly from FF7 and Ehrgeiz with some light Dissidia resemblances) their playstyles are quite close to Dissidia: Cloud's Buster Basher is mainly focused around simple but powerful melee attacks that can inflict a lot of damage - and like Dissidia can extend advantage by following up with further swings (unlike Dissidia Cloud is quick both on the ground and in the air, maybe a nod to FF7 / AC Cloud). Or play a more guarded reactionary game, akin to his FF7(R) self. Dissidia Cloud is susceptible to being blocked / punished however. Likewise, a lot of Smash Cloud's attacks can be blocked / punished, and he has few truly safe on shield attacks.

However, Dissidia has EX (Super) mode - where the characters in question gains Regen, heightened crit rate and character-specific buffs. Cloud's character specific buffs increases his ATK proportional to how much HP he has left, and ensure that his melee attacks crush normal guards and deflect lower-priority attacks. In short, an opponent should be extremely careful when Cloud has EX Mode. While Smash's Limit Break does not go that far, Limit Break provides some very strong stat buffs - no damage buff, but it buffs his already-strong mobility across the board via multipliers - and the Limit Break versions give off the same fear factor (balanced out by just one use per Limit charge, and the 15 second timer after Permanent Limit proved too OP in Smash 4):

* Limit Blade Beam gains transcendent priority - meaning it goes through other projectiles - and its multihit nature makes it tricky to shield / parry. Especially depleted ones when it can shieldstab and retain its powerful finisher. Cloud also gains intangibility on startup, so if he's not hit out of the move first he will get it out.

* Limit Cross Slash not only increases the total damage dealt, it also - again - gives him intangibility on startup, buffs Cross Slash's shield damage to the point where it can if things go exactly right break a middleweight's shield. Yes, parries help immensely, but even with a parry Limit Cross Slash is surprisingly safe compared to the really unsafe normal Cross Slash - LCS is really difficult to punish it unless it completely whiffs.

* Limit Climbhazzard not only temporarily fixes Cloud's biggest weakness - recovery - but also turns Climbhazzard into a "Surprise!" kill move (120ish %+). And it's - aside from the intangibility - surprisingly difficult to punish since if it whiffs or is shielded since Cloud can choose to drift whereever he wants.

* While Finishing Touch deals no (shield) damage practically and it has very high endlag... it can kill most opponents at 70-ish %, and while the aerial version is weaker to compensate Cloud can confirm into it thanks to its semi-quick startup. Oh and the wind is strong enough to make it surprisingly difficult to punish in a lot of situations.

In short... yup, Limit Break also communicates that an opponent should be extremely careful when "Genkai wo Koeru" activates, in both games the Super mode allieviates his safety on block issues to a degree. As a neat bonus - Limit Break's one-use / 15 second nature does introduce an element of strategy: when do you charge and how much? When in the match do you want Limit? Do you use up your Limit Break on a souped up attack, or keep it around as long as possible until needed?

:

Sephiroth's Focused Blade playstyle in Dissidia does not initially look like anywhere near his Smash counterpart. "Sword attacks that use "just frame" mechanics similar to other fighting games, where pressing Circle too soon when executing his Bravery attacks will cause them to end before dealing the maximum number of hits." However, timing is crucial to making the most out of him - Smash Sephiroth shares this to some extent with his attacks having slow startup and different tippers depending on if it's a stab or a slash. His HP attacks in Dissidia cover a large area though and can be devastating, even if he has very few pressure tools outside of Shadow Flare. Likewise, Smash Sephiroth can cover large areas very well, although Shadow Flare is one of his very few non-commital pressure attacks. Still, in both games Sephiroth is well-equipped to harass and keepaway the living hell out of his foes.

Sephiroth's EX Mode? Reunion. Yup, the Wing. In Dissidia it grants him Gliding as well as Heartless Angel (which reduces Bravery to 1 after a long charge time and IIRC can be charged while Gliding) alongside the aformentioned universal boosts. That puts pressure on the opponent to close in on Sephiroth fast, lest they eat an Heartless Angel or HP attack straight into the EX Burst Supernova. In Smash, the Wing does approximate the Glide with a third jump (and one that's high)... but instead the Wing boosts his attack by 1.3X and again grants him major stat buffs across the board. Oh, alongside the Super armor on the Smash attacks. Again, that puts pressure on the opponent to close in on Sephiroth fast, lest they eat highly damaging sword swipes or Shadow Flare trap setups. Worst case scenario, practical OHKO via Down Smash shield break into Gigaflare.

Yes, like in Dissidia Smash Wing is not permanent - if Sephiroth deals a lot of damage / KOs with it the point system that makes it activate will empty. Still though, Smash Sephiroth has eery parralels with Dissidia Sephiroth. Wing is much more dependent on how the match is going - it'll activate earlier if he's behind but later if he's ahead, but he only gets one Wing per life. Making it very important for the Sephiroth player to avoid too many mistakes.

:

Inkling has limited ink probably because inking an opponent is a major damage boost - up to 1.5X if the opponent's fully covered (and it's easy to get to that point - a lot of moves apply ink in quite large quantities). Combine that with ink on the ground also slowing opponents' speed (akin to Splatoon) and Inkling can regularily exert a lot of pressure - so much so that if her ink was unlimited she could keep that 1.5X multiplier going indefinetely and it would entirely solve what's supposed to be her main weaknesses (limited ability to escape pressure and very few safe KO moves without specific setups).

Now I haven't really played Splatoon, so I can't say if it's entirely game accurate, but from the limited Splatoon I've seen the ink mechanic approximates the home games' element of strategy. When do you use ink? When do you retreat to a safe spot and recharge?

:

While Rage Drive's new (wasn't even in vanilla 7, it debuted in Fated Retribution), Rage's been a thing since Tekken 6 - it activates at 10 % health and gave increased damage (a feature Smash chose to carry over, Rage has a 1.1X damage multiplier in Smash). Tekken 7 FR's Rage Drive was introduced since it can extend combo routes, but also a sense of risk and reward - using the Rage Drive will expend Rage entirely. Likewise, that's a feature Smash carried over, albeit Smash Rage Drive is a combo finisher through a through. TBF, he already has one of the most potent if extremely difficult combo extenders in the entire game (EWGF) and on a novice level he's still dangerous thanks to the armor, intagibility and what not.

Rage and Rage Drive not only introduce an element of strategy whether to use the Drive or hang on to Rage as long as possible (as with most comeback mechanics); but it also reinforces the notion that while Kazuya is heavily focused around spacing, he also hits like a truck once he gets in. The Mishima style is, after all, very much about punishing whiffs and extending the pain train when possible.

:

Remember that in DKC1 he could only be hit in the head? Think that's what they were going with the Belly Armor - it's not only a resemblance to his DKC1 incarnation because it discourages hitting his belly, but also since it complements Crownerang's own separate armor. Those two are likely there to approximate how he behaves there.

Also, one of K Rool's primary weaknesses is that he really struggles with keeping up advantage - while he hits hard, his combination of having a lot of knockback + being rather slow (whether we're talking movespeed or projectiles) means he can't reliably threaten additional hits before the opponent's ready to strike back. As such he has to oftentimes resort to either trading blows or the bait-and-punish that's characteristic of most heavies. Belly Armor helps with that and another primary weakness of his, disadvantage. It doesn't solve everything of course, but Belly Armor does that and adds a degree of strategy: when to use moves with the armor to get out of bad spots etc. It's also gotten buffed majorly over Ultimate's lifespan - the Armor's HP threshold going from effectively 28 to 36 % means that it can't be blown up by just one Smash attack and it can tank much more overall over the course of a match (especially since its regen isn't that great).

:

All right, consider how Joker plays normally. Quite a lot like / : while one may take this to conclude "This is how Sakurai prefers his thief / ninja characters - light, agile, very quick and stringable hits" I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Of course, there's no "Get on top of an enemy's head then decapitate" ambush like he does in P5, but still. Normally characters like Sheik / Greninja aren't that popular to play casually - they don't have a lot of obvious big hits and they oftentimes aren't intuitive to just pick up and play.

The Rebellion Gauge and how Arsene works is most assuredly a gameplay shortcut - unlike most of the above examples, which have parralels to past games. It's still a "hook" though akin to Lucario: by (skillfully or not) taking damage you get to summon this giant ghost thief who effectively is a double damage rune and you get to go to ****ing town on everyone else. It's a major temptation, especially if you suddenly hit as hard as a heavyweight, get majorly upgraded projectiles and what's probably the best Counter in the entire game but with the same speed. If you're skillful with Rebel's Guard you can even get two or three Arsenes in a life, and that's a very good sign for a Joker player. Conversely, taking damage with Arsene out reduces his time (max 30 seconds) and Arsene's Up B is a bit less safe than Joker's Grappling hook, encouraging the player to not bee too reckless with Arsene.

And hey, it worked. Arsene is one reason I suspect why Joker's popular to play casually, unlike Sheik and Greninja who are down amongst the least common in casual (online) play.

Conclusion:

Comeback mechanics aren't usually meant to reference as a primary thing: they're meant to add strategic depth. When does one use this souped up move? Is it preferable to try and maintain the stat boosts as long as possible? How long can one avoid getting hit / KOed while in the Super mode?

Other examples of comeback moves ( 's Waft, 's KO Punch, 's GO) also seek to provide this kind of strategic depth alongside giving those characters their own identity. Whether that succeds or not is dependent on the character and beholder, but in addition to strenghening a character's identity and strategic depth within Smash they're there to give a "hook".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This implies the war never stopped...

Not helping.

 

[Sucumbio]

Ultimate is fine really I'm definitely not in the camp who thinks it could have done even more. It's got so much going for it. Really the only let down for me was the way they handled online this time around. I loved For Glory and GSP/Elite is a fair turd. But at least it's better than Brawl online where half the time you couldn't play more than 5 seconds without dropping.

There's a strong chance the next Smash will have rollback netcode. So I'm optimistic. But speculating the next game seems to be locked into one of 3 mindsets...

A. 100 percent new title
B. Ultimate 2.0 with some additional new characters and DLC, bring back stages that were lost, and modes that were lost etc...
C. A hybrid of the two, so a new engine that takes advantage of the new hardware but follows Ultimate in terms of Roster size bringing everyone back plus some new characters and DLC and remaking SSE or a similar mode. And bringing back missed modes and stages.

B or C seem to be the most popular with the difference really being between how they spend their money as in this notion that because they secured Ultimate's roster it's feasible to just use them all again (I don't know if this is truly the way the licensing went down but it's possible).

I'm really on the fence now lol I think I need to wait and see what the new system will be before I make a decision.

 

[Will]

Because it'd make it more likely I'd get base game newcomers that aren't just the obligatory new Pokemon or FE rep if the whole roster doesn't come back?

This kind of take is what scares the hoes, man.​

 

[SPEN18]

That would honestly be fine with me as well. As long as the end result is having all the characters, I’m okay with having to unlock them. A starting roster of all newcomers would be fun as long as the others are fun and not too hard to unlock.

Well, I'm fine with having to unlock characters also. But having a starting roster of all newcomers would probably force you to make a bunch of newcomers with the sort of simple, newbie-friendly movesets that vets like Mario or Kirby typically fill. And remember in Pokemon Gen 5 you had to also own the previous games to get all the old Mons, which wouldn't work nearly as effectively for Smash; people would be mad if certain characters were locked behind such a restrictive paywall.

--

Well first it wasn't always treated like the reused asset game it is today thanks to Sakurai's own admission of such. At the beginning it was absolutely NOT marketed like a port and the fandom at-large had a very negative reaction to anybody that believed (and rightfully they've been vindicated) as such. Only after the game was a success and in the middle of its DLC was Sakurai more willing to admit this.

It doesn't matter how it was marketed; the point is that they were able to reuse significant assets for Ultimate and continuing this might not be a good idea for various reasons.

While you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that we differ I still don't appreciate the insinuation that I've some spastic, crazed, and/or entitled person simply because I think wanting to retain EiH for another entry is preferable to cuts.

Not that I want to speak for anybody else, but I don't think that was being directed at you specifically. Regardless, sorry if you were offended.

Ideally it would fundamentally not be the same game anymore.

So you're basically saying that you want all the benefits of a new game but just keep EiH?

Of course they're going to reuse as many assets as they can in any situation; that's just smart development strategy. But especially on new hardware where the reuse of assets is only going to make up a tiny portion of all the work that goes into adding any particular character or piece of content, I wouldn't want the slight shortcut to have any significant effect on the roster decisions. In any event I don't think a vet taking less work should be a significant factor at all in their priority ranking, since I think the roster could use some major reconsiderations and could even be made better with a smaller raw number of PCs.

Nintendo doesn't really compete in graphics though either. I'd imagine the developers would do whatever they did from 4 to Ultimate.

I'm not saying they really should compete too heavily in graphics. That wasn't the point. But doing something like using Brawl's graphics on the Wii U wouldn't have looked too good I don't think. And remember what they did from 4 to Ult was a special situation that is unlikely to be feasible again.

I think an Ultimate DX can do borderline anything a new ground up entry could and there as some major things like retaining EiH that only an Ultimate DX can do.

Again it just sounds like you want a new game but just one that keeps EiH. Personally I don't like EiH, but even if you do like it you have to admit that some sacrifices made from the veteran roster could give them more flexibility to create the game, regardless of resused assets being a thing to some extent.

first party vs third party war again.

There's nothing really wrong with continuing to talk about it if that's what people want to talk about and especially if more people wanna weigh in on it. Sure it will go in circles to some degree but that happens with almost any hot topic in a big thread like this.

 

[ZelDan]

For me, I do like and enjoy Ultimate, but I also think the game is far from perfect and there is definitely room for improvement or more that could be done with Smash. It's for this exact reason that I'm open-minded to having a brand new Smash game and not super thrilled at the idea of a getting an Ultimate port or an Ultimate DX or whatever.

That said I do think it is silly to blame third parties for whatever issues Ultimate has.

For one, it's important to remember that we did have about as much first party newcomers as we did third party newcomers, and while first party newcomers didn't have to deal with third party negotiations or contrcatual BS, they still had to have taken a good chunk of development time between the designing, programming, balancing, etc.

Also, when it comes to whatever issues Ultimate has, I think design philosophies or company mindsets are more at play than third parties being alot of work. I mean, I'm someone that's disppointed at the lack of story and in Smash Ultimate, but I think the main culprit of Ultimate's lack of story is Sakurai not wanting to focus on story as much after Brawl's SSE was uploaded on youtube and instead he wanted to just put all story in character reveals. Another thing Ultimate is lacking in or is flawed is online, and that is DEFINITELY not on third party newcomers lol. That's all on Nintendo and antiquated approach to online gaming.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I hope Bubsy won't join the Roster.
If he was in the Game, he would be annoying and boring character to play.

 

[Gengar84]

I hope Bubsy won't join the Roster.
If he was in the Game, he would be annoying and boring character to play.

What could possibly go wrong?

I don’t think you have to worry about Bubsy. I don’t think he really has much a chance at all. I did I ironically enjoy the first Bubsy game on the SNES so I’d be fine with his inclusion.

 

[Geno Boost]

Is it weird that I enjoy smash crusade more than smash ultimate sometimes?
Smash crusade pretty much have the characters I always loved and enjoy playing as such as Geno, Sukapon, Rayman, Crash, Black Mage, Shadow, Unique Ganondorf and including veteran smash characters that I mains as well.

 

[Perkilator]

You know how I see Bubsy in Smash?

As an AT who does nothing at all. He’s basically only there so you can beat the ever-living snot out of him.

 

[ZelDan]

Is it weird that I enjoy smash crusade more than smash ultimate sometimes?
Smash crusade pretty much have the characters I always loved and enjoy playing as such as Geno, Sukapon, Rayman, Crash, Black Mage, Shadow, Unique Ganondorf and including veteran smash characters that I mains as well.

I've never played Crusade myself, but I've played Super Smash Flash 2. I don't know if I'd say I enjoy it more than Ultimate but is is a fun game, and even if its roster isn't as big as Ultimate's I still do appreciate it for what it is (well, maybe not so much the Shonen Jump characters).

 

[chocolatejr9]

You know how I see Bubsy in Smash?

As an AT who does nothing at all. He’s basically only there so you can beat the ever-living snot out of him.

So basically Starfy?

 

[Perkilator]

So basically Starfy?

Nah, even Starfy can deal damage, and he’s cute.

 

[AlRex]

Bubsy getting any sort of acknowledgement in Smash would be funny enough to me. But I doubt it. Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, and Spyro aren't even playable.

 

[Chuderz]

It doesn't matter how it was marketed; the point is that they were able to reuse significant assets for Ultimate and continuing this might not be a good idea for various reasons.

Sure but continuing by reusing Ultimate's might also be a good idea for various reasons. Namely keeping Eih intact.

Not that I want to speak for anybody else, but I don't think that was being directed at you specifically. Regardless, sorry if you were offended.

I was replying to a separate person from you that was directly replying to me. He ended statement with a sentiment mockingly expressing in all caps and multiple exclamation points + various 1's at the end in regards to porting Ultimate forever and ever.

So you're basically saying that you want all the benefits of a new game but just keep EiH?

I mean sort of? I meant ideally this theoretical "enhanced port" would be worked on for multiple years with a large AAA team behind it bringing the content to it to match the effort put in. The kind of work worthy of a Smash 6 but with day 0 literally being Ultimate + DLC. And yes I think it's safe to say one of the main motivators behind advocacy for this hypothetical project is the retention of EiH. I've even gone as far to say I consider EiH to be the tagline for Smash itself as a series.

Of course they're going to reuse as many assets as they can in any situation; that's just smart development strategy. But especially on new hardware where the reuse of assets is only going to make up a tiny portion of all the work that goes into adding any particular character or piece of content, I wouldn't want the slight shortcut to have any significant effect on the roster decisions. In any event I don't think a vet taking less work should be a significant factor at all in their priority ranking, since I think the roster could use some major reconsiderations and could even be made better with a smaller raw number of PCs.

I think the complete opposite in regards to vets. That's an entire moveset for much less rework all things considered. I think that was sort of the rationale behind adding in Puff to Brawl when they got the deadline extended. Unique moveset but modeled after one of the existing fighters. I also think this pre-established work allows for a quicker to start to address some of the characters needing major overhauls or slight tweeks kind of Ultimate tried to do here and there sparsely already.

Again day 0 being Ultimate + DLC allows for this kind of creative flexibility and conservation of resources. For all we know Nintendo is negotiating for the third parties right now while Sakurai is breaking. Whether it happens or not I think it's very enticing to think what Sakurai and friends could do with day 0 Ultimate, on a more powerful console, with more time to make the game than last time. Hence the speculation.

I'm not saying they really should compete too heavily in graphics. That wasn't the point. But doing something like using Brawl's graphics on the Wii U wouldn't have looked too good I don't think. And remember what they did from 4 to Ult was a special situation that is unlikely to be feasible again.

They literally reused Brawl assets though like Piranha Plant's Final Smash and a good number of the boss encounters. I don't get how Smash 4 to Ultimate's situation would be any more or less special than Ultimate to Ultimate DX's situation would be. Other than the potential for more being greater than before just based on the scale of the respective Smash 4 and Ultimate entries.

Again it just sounds like you want a new game but just one that keeps EiH. Personally I don't like EiH, but even if you do like it you have to admit that some sacrifices made from the veteran roster could give them more flexibility to create the game, regardless of resused assets being a thing to some extent.

I want an Ultimate DX treated like a Smash 6 in that it qualifies as its own unique entry into the series far beyond the bare minimum required to earn the DX moniker. If the choices were between a new game and a bare minimum half-hearted port of Ultimate I'd pick the new game. I desire an Ultimate DX treated like Smash 6 way more than a new game though. Primarily because I think EiH matters and should be a priority going forward even when a game from the ground up has to be done. Let's call that game Smash 7 and presume it is made after my dream Ultimate DX is done being officially supported. I'd much rather Smash 7 be bare bones on all other content if it means keeping EiH intact. Then ideally Smash 8 could continue from that point by enriching the game with that missing content.

I think Everyone is Here should be a standard above all else. I think it's more important to the majority of players too. The single-player content is only so good as you have fighters to experience it with and that especially goes for the multiplayer.

Ultimate even being called Ultimate or Special if you'd prefer is only because Everyone is Here was achieved. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the best selling Smash and fighting game either. I think a large appeal to the mainstream audiences was everyone from all the Smash games they remembered was back ready to duke it out in a modern entry to the series. Couple that with nearly all the stages returning and I think its success was basically guaranteed at that point.

I don't think it'd be a tough sell to the casual audience to bring all of that back but add substantially to it to the point that it's obvious the scale of these additions adds greatly to the Ultimate before it. They're like a dozen characters and stages away from being to market Everyone is STILL HERE!, Everywhere is HERE! and OVER 100 characters! Couple that with the risk of disappointing audiences by scaling all of that back.

A part of Smash's established identity is now being bigger and grander than the entry before it and all other crossover games. It's why 8 player Smash was so heavily hyped. The mural being a thing. Everyone is Here being able to make the massive impression it did in the first place. Every Smash game has increased the size of the cast. When people compare Smash from its start to Smash where it currently sits today they primarily make note of the increase in size to the cast.

I think it's way riskier to move away from that. I also fail to see how anything is gained that couldn't also be accomplished in an Ultimate DX AT LEAST as far as Smash 6 is concerned in the present cycle between entries.

There's nothing really wrong with continuing to talk about it if that's what people want to talk about and especially if more people wanna weigh in on it. Sure it will go in circles to some degree but that happens with almost any hot topic in a big thread like this.

I know this post wasn't in regards to Ultimate DX or a response to me but I agree. This is what this thread is for. We come here to wildly speculate on a game that isn't close to existing yet. Opinions will be thrown around and around until Smash 6 is an actual thing.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What could possibly go wrong?

More like a bridge too short!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Couple that with the risk of disappointing audiences by scaling all of that back.

You gotta disappoint somebody anyway. You can either disappoint people by scaling the crossover back, or disappoint people by not adding any more newcomers except for a new Pokemon/FE promo pick, depending on timing. That's just how reality is.

 

[Will]

I wonder what Sakurai will choose to do after his break. He's been on Smash itself nonstop for about eight years. It would feel disheartening to hear he got off his break from Smash to go immediately back to Smash. Hell, would Nintendo not even do it if he declined to take a director role on a DX?

kid icarus uprising 2 would be sick af though

 

[HyperSomari64]

I wonder what Sakurai will choose to do after his break. He's been on Smash itself nonstop for about eight years. It would feel disheartening to hear he got off his break from Smash to go immediately back to Smash. Hell, would Nintendo not even do it if he declined to take a director role on a DX?

kid icarus uprising 2 would be sick af though

Something like resurrecting a dead Nintendo franchise like he did with Kid Icarus: Uprising, by making a very original game but after some complications it's the revival of a dormant series, something like [Series Name] Uprising, and launching the Uprising series (which is a collection where M.S. makes new games, and not only from the ones that are represented in Smash.)

 

[Idon]

If he was in the Game, he would be annoying and boring character to play.

looks at several dozen Ultimate characters.

I believe we've crossed that bridge a mile back.

 

[Will]

Something like resurrecting a dead Nintendo franchise like he did with Kid Icarus: Uprising, by making a very original game but after some complications it's the revival of a dormant series, something like [Series Name] Uprising, and launching the Uprising series (which is a collection where M.S. makes new games, and not only from the ones that are represented in Smash.)

What kind of remake and genre would you want Sakurai to do? He turned Kid Icarus from a 2D sidescroller to a 3D Rail Shooter / Arena Fighter

 

[MasterCheef]

I would like to see Sakurai helm a Nintendo MOBA

 

[HyperSomari64]

What kind of remake and genre would you want Sakurai to do? He turned Kid Icarus from a 2D sidescroller to a 3D Rail Shooter / Arena Fighter

Tin Star: Uprising, a 3rd person shooter with a cel-shading similar to Codename: STEAM

 

[Yamat08]

Yeah Gen 5 was a bit weird in that it tried to hit the soft reboot button but they still left the ability to obtain the mons from previous gens thru transfer. IMO what Gen 5 tried to do wasn't gonna work because many of the early-gen Mons are too iconic for them all to be ditched completely. In hindsight Gen 5 just made the whole situation even harder to deal with and was probably not the best way to go about dealing with a rising number of Pokémon.

Looking back on it, though, I can understand what Gen5 was going for. I mean, I remember several complaints about Diamond/Pearl's crummy variety of Pokemon (something that's coming to the forefront once again with the remakes, remakes which used almost none of Platinum's improvements). I mean, half the routes were full of Geodude, Zubat, Magikarp, and all this other crap that people have already seen on nearly every route for the past three generations before it, all while having a HORRIBLE type variety (Fire is Ponyta, LOL) and most of the new evolutions being locked until post-game. And really, I never got all the complaints for gen5 to begin with, since the old Pokemon were still available through transfer (AND the Dream World, which sadly nobody seems to remember).

That doesn't negate that Nintendo isn't chasing graphics and that Smash 4 to Ultimate did see improvements to the graphics and engine while still reusing assets. If Nintendo keeps the hybrid model like they should they literally just can't chase graphics in the same way as the other two.

How Ultimate didn't live up to its potential is a matter of personal preference. I was mostly implying the online held it back significantly.

Well given how well-received Smash was this cycle, being thatSmash 4 was in no way treated as glowingly as Ultimate is (Smash 4 was treated more like a solid entry into the series) Ultimate really solidified Smash's legacy and I think that's in part due to the Switch's hybrid nature allowing for the transition from 4's split release better (side note is the best thing Nintendo's ever done for their business getting rid of the split developmental divisions) but also I think it's not a coincidence that the title that brought forth the concept of "Everyone is Here!" has established the franchise so affirmatively as it has in the gaming zeitgeist.

Yes, the hybrid really is one of Nintendo's best decisions. I mean, I remember the era of the 3DS and WiiU, and thought it was absolutely horrible. One system was completely screwed over while the other was having ALL of the development allocated to it and it alone. Whereas one gets Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Animal Crossing (that isn't a gimmick-reliant board game), and other major titles, the other is just barely able to get a Sticker Star sequel that nobody asked for (in fact, the 3DS even got some of the WiiU's few noteworthy exclusives like Super Mario Maker and Hyrule Warriors). In short, Nintendo could NOT balance a console and a portable like they used to, so the Switch was by far the best way moving forward (incidentally, Sony had similar issues with the Vita, with most of its library consisting of lower-quality versions of PS4 titles).

And yeah, Nintendo really doesn't chase graphics that much. Not only that, but Sakurai specifically stated that he thought having the full roster would be what fans want the most. I mean, sure, Smash has always been among Nintendo's more graphically impressive titles, but if you were to ask the fanbase whether they'd want to cull Dark Pit, or to add a few more polygons to Little Mac's bicep, what response do you think you'd be more likely to get?

Because it'd make it more likely I'd get base game newcomers that aren't just the obligatory new Pokemon or FE rep if the whole roster doesn't come back?

I mean, how do you know you won't just get Pokemon and Fire Emblem anyway, if not more so, on a roster starting from scratch? Need I remind you that Smash4 was pretty much what started all the Fire Emblem hate by making the number of reps absolutely explode within a single entry.

Also, when it comes to whatever issues Ultimate has, I think design philosophies or company mindsets are more at play than third parties being alot of work. I mean, I'm someone that's disppointed at the lack of story and in Smash Ultimate, but I think the main culprit of Ultimate's lack of story is Sakurai not wanting to focus on story as much after Brawl's SSE was uploaded on youtube and instead he wanted to just put all story in character reveals. Another thing Ultimate is lacking in or is flawed is online, and that is DEFINITELY not on third party newcomers lol. That's all on Nintendo and antiquated approach to online gaming.

Uploaded YouTube videos are still no excuse for World of Light's complete lack of side-scrolling stages. If anything, it should've been all the more reason to have an Adventure Mode that's light on story but high on gameplay, yet they go and remove that one gameplay feature that always made Adventure Mode stand out.

I mean sort of? I meant ideally this theoretical "enhanced port" would be worked on for multiple years with a large AAA team behind it bringing the content to it to match the effort put in. The kind of work worthy of a Smash 6 but with day 0 literally being Ultimate + DLC. And yes I think it's safe to say one of the main motivators behind advocacy for this hypothetical project is the retention of EiH. I've even gone as far to say I consider EiH to be the tagline for Smash itself as a series.

The new reveals for Ultimate certainly gave me that impression. Sakurai would talk about characters "joining Smash", as if they're now a permanent part of the series and not just a guest who could very easily be around for this one time and this one time only.

 

[Perkilator]

I still think Sakurai should try his hand at an Ice Climbers or Mysterious Murasame Castle revival

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Hear me out tho

an F-Zero revival by Sakurai

hey don’t knock it till you tried it. It’d be better than Miyamoto forcing a gimmick on it at least

 

[chocolatejr9]

Tin Star: Uprising, a 3rd person shooter with a cel-shading similar to Codename: STEAM

I wish they'd port Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. to Switch. That game has SO much potential...

Hear me out tho

an F-Zero revival by Sakurai

hey don’t knock it till you tried it. It’d be better than Miyamoto forcing a gimmick on it at least

Wait, how do we know Sakurai won't force a gimmick?

 

[Sucumbio]

An f-zero adventure game or side scroller beat em up with racing levels in between areas. With his smash moveset ofc

 

[Will]

An F-Zero revival but it's not a revival but a sequel to the plot of the anime where you play as Captain Falcon 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[Trevenant]

Seeing the site go up like 2 pages in a matter of a day had me thinking if this site could even last until the next smash game lmao... Kinda sad at the same time tho...

 

[DarthEnderX]

Something like resurrecting a dead Nintendo franchise like he did with Kid Icarus: Uprising

Or just...trying to resurrect Kid Icarus, again. Only with, like, good controls this time.

 

[SPEN18]

That said I do think it is silly to blame third parties for whatever issues Ultimate has.

I don't think anyone here has been blaming third parties for lack of content and such, though? Plenty of people like myself would like there to be fewer third parties overall and it is true that we could have more first party content in general if so much of the budget and/or roster spots didn't have to go to third parties. But the possibility of more first party content generally isn't the original or main reason for people wanting to return to "Nintendo All-Stars."

it's important to remember that we did have about as much first party newcomers as we did third party newcomers,

I mean, many people including myself would like the balance to be much more skewed towards first parties since this is a Nintendo-focused game. Not anywhere near an even-stevens kind of thing.

--

I was replying to a separate person from you that was directly replying to me

I know, but regardless I don't want anybody to feel uncomfortable here, anyway.

I think the complete opposite in regards to vets. That's an entire moveset for much less rework all things considered.

In a non-port situation it's not much less work at all, for one. Most of the time/resources saved are just in the planning stages it would seem, because once you know how the new character would work it's not any harder really to build them from the ground up. Vets still have to be delicately rebalanced and such for every iteration of the game. And reusing assets from the last console doesn't save much time relatively speaking if you have to massively modify them to look proper on the new console, which is what I meant about using Brawl stuff on the Wii U. Clearly the Smash 4 models took a ton of effort even if they were able to use Brawl stuff as a starting point (which I was aware that they were able to do to some extent).

But regardless of the work necessary for vets vs. newcomers, I'd rather they largely pick the most iconic and/or historically important ones and leave considerations of time-saving for the low-priority roster padding (and only to the extent that it is deemed necessary). So not just maximum efficiency in terms of raw roster size or percentage of returning vets.

Of course if you're as committed to EiH as your comments suggest, then you and I have some deep-rooted differences in opinion but hopefully you can see a bit of where I'm coming from.

I don't get how Smash 4 to Ultimate's situation would be any more or less special than Ultimate to Ultimate DX's situation would be.

S4 to Ult was a unique transition due to the Switch's power not being that much greater than that of the Wii U (due to the portable hybrid shift). It's been argued by myself and others that we're unlikely to get a new console where reuse of assets can be done without the major facelifts that were required for, say, Brawl to 4.

As for some of the other parts of your post, I agree that there is some short-term risk in moving away from things like EiH or tons of third party crossovers. A lot of people will not like some of it, at least initially. But I also think that a solid, well-made Smash entry would recover from such things pretty quickly and could be better for the series' health long-term if they clean up and refocus the roster/content. Although the PC roster is the main focus, I actually think the stage lineup could also be streamlined a bit while still doing an even better job of representing the most iconic locales. "Everywhere is Here" is pretty non-essential IMO.

--

Looking back on it, though, I can understand what Gen5 was going for. I mean, I remember several complaints about Diamond/Pearl's crummy variety of Pokemon (something that's coming to the forefront once again with the remakes, remakes which used almost none of Platinum's improvements). I mean, half the routes were full of Geodude, Zubat, Magikarp, and all this other crap that people have already seen on nearly every route for the past three generations before it, all while having a HORRIBLE type variety (Fire is Ponyta, LOL) and most of the new evolutions being locked until post-game. And really, I never got all the complaints for gen5 to begin with, since the old Pokemon were still available through transfer (AND the Dream World, which sadly nobody seems to remember).

Don't get me wrong; I actually enjoyed Gen 5. I just think trying a soft-reboot-ish thing like that didn't pay off in the long run and, especially given that they were still intending to allow National Dex in Gens 5+, it made the situation of the dex size much worse than it needed to be. A lot of this is indeed looking at things through the lens of hindsight, though. Problems of variety in Gen 4 could have been largely fixed in Gen 5 without doing it the way they did, such as say littering the routes with stuff like Nosepass instead of Geodude or switching up the archetypes like not necessarily having a Normal/Flying birdmon line in the earlygame. Dream world is interesting to mention but I think a lot of casuals, new players, and kids largely didn't use it.

how do you know you won't just get Pokemon and Fire Emblem anyway, if not more so, on a roster starting from scratch?

Well, if you make a new game without EiH then presumably a healthy batch of newcomers is gonna be one of the big things that helps sell it. In which case it's easier to sneak in a few fan faves, since those one or two extra fan faves you might want to include don't force you to sacrifice your shills.

Sakurai would talk about characters "joining Smash", as if they're now a permanent part of the series

Sakurai has said that he wasn't going to look past Ultimate while still making Ultimate. He has said that there are no immediate plans to continue the series. We should probably take his word for it that there were no secret dealings to secure rights for future installments.

--

Wait, how do we know Sakurai won't force a gimmick?

Maybe they think that even if Sakurai forces a gimmick, then it is highly likely to be better than Miyamoto's gimmick?

--

An f-zero adventure game or side scroller beat em up with racing levels in between areas. With his smash moveset ofc

Would probably buy it. Actually, given that the original plan for C. Falcon was to use him in stuff other than F-Zero racers, it would be kinda cool to see the character branch out a bit.

--

On the note of Sakurai and KI, and especially given that some of the on-rails sequences in KI were partially inspired by Sin & Punishment, I'd like to see a Sakurai-made S&P game, maybe one that even branches out of the rail-shooter genre for at least portions of the time (as unlikely as this is).

We know Saki has had requests for his being in Smash since way back in the pre-Brawl days, and if kids like beamswords and laser blasters in Star Wars, then they are sure to love him if he were ever to be more relevant again.

 

[RileyXY1]

You gotta disappoint somebody anyway. You can either disappoint people by scaling the crossover back, or disappoint people by not adding any more newcomers except for a new Pokemon/FE promo pick, depending on timing. That's just how reality is.

Yeah. No matter what Smash 6 does people will be disappointed.

 

[osby]

Sakurai bringing back a single dormant game in this entire 30+ years of carrier and people forever labeling him as the "Nintendo dead franchise revival guy" is super funny to me for some reason.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

If we had a boss that was meant to feel like fighting an actual character but it wasn't an actual character who should it be? Like a boss with more complexity in how they move and interact with the player, maybe even having to fight them in a traditional "launch them into the blast zone" fight rather than with a health bar. Something in between the general feel of Giga Bowser in Melee and Ultimate.

Basically recreating fighting game bosses or even Sephiroth Challenge but not to the point of "you could be a playable character and no one would bat an eye barring the fact you're broken as hell", because you don't wanna create a new full character that no one could play as.

 

[Slime Scholar]

If we had a boss that was meant to feel like fighting an actual character but it wasn't an actual character who should it be? Like a boss with more complexity in how they move and interact with the player, maybe even having to fight them in a traditional "launch them into the blast zone" fight rather than with a health bar. Something in between the general feel of Giga Bowser in Melee and Ultimate.

Basically recreating fighting game bosses or even Sephiroth Challenge but not to the point of "you could be a playable character and no one would bat an eye barring the fact you're broken as hell", because you don't wanna create a new full character that no one could play as.

If they were to add Dante next game, then Vergil is the perfect choice for something like this. He’s already essentially a playable boss in his own games and has an arsenal of memorable moves that are probably too strong to make him a balanced fighter in Smash.

If we’re only looking at series already in the game. maybe the Black Knight?

 

[Yamat08]

I don't think anyone here has been blaming third parties for lack of content and such, though? Plenty of people like myself would like there to be fewer third parties overall and it is true that we could have more first party content in general if so much of the budget and/or roster spots didn't have to go to third parties. But the possibility of more first party content generally isn't the original or main reason for people wanting to return to "Nintendo All-Stars."



I mean, many people including myself would like the balance to be much more skewed towards first parties since this is a Nintendo-focused game. Not anywhere near an even-stevens kind of thing.

I'm not opposed to more third parties, though I am part of the group who considers Smash to be a Nintendo cross-over first and foremost. Personally, I wouldn't mind most future third party additions only coming from the companies that are already involved in Smash, as it could at least keep the pool of people who need to be negotiated with relatively small (though I would like Reimu to get in there). But then again, we already have Disney involved, so that already seems like a nightmare for the prospects of keeping Everyone Is Here intact, the potential for Ultimate to ever get a future re-release, or even just the possibility that Ultimate's DLC won't be removed for the remainder of the Switch eShop's lifespan (looking at you, World of Final Fantasy).

Although the PC roster is the main focus, I actually think the stage lineup could also be streamlined a bit while still doing an even better job of representing the most iconic locales. "Everywhere is Here" is pretty non-essential IMO.

To some extent, I could agree. I mean, who was really asking for 2 different versions of Yoshi's Story? But I guess some of us wanna see every stage back, not only because they're an absolute ton of re-usable assets (which have just now been brought up to HD standards and given both an Omega and Battlefield variant), but also because Ultimate fell just a tiny bit short of going all the way with the concept. Though, I guess it also helps that some of the stages we lost actually are pretty interesting in their own right (I don't know anybody who thinks Pac-Land should've gotten in over Pac-Maze, and stages like Rainbow Road and Orbital Gate Assault had their share of fans).

Plus, I can't really fault base Ultimate for only adding stages based on Mario Odyssey, Breath of the Wild, and the new franchises of Splatoon and Castlevania. When you really get right down to it, there wasn't that much of a need to give every franchise a new stage in each installment anyway (in fact, it only lead to utterly redundant crap like Smash WiiU having both Smashville and Town & City), so if they just re-use the ones they have, that should work good enough as representation. More so when the majority of players aren't even gonna care about the gimmicky versions of those stages.

Don't get me wrong; I actually enjoyed Gen 5. I just think trying a soft-reboot-ish thing like that didn't pay off in the long run and, especially given that they were still intending to allow National Dex in Gens 5+, it made the situation of the dex size much worse than it needed to be. A lot of this is indeed looking at things through the lens of hindsight, though. Problems of variety in Gen 4 could have been largely fixed in Gen 5 without doing it the way they did, such as say littering the routes with stuff like Nosepass instead of Geodude or switching up the archetypes like not necessarily having a Normal/Flying birdmon line in the earlygame. Dream world is interesting to mention but I think a lot of casuals, new players, and kids largely didn't use it.

Ironically, Game Freak still doesn't seem to mind adding in more bloat. I mean, having every generation feature an early-game bird and rodent is one thing, but does the bird really need to be a 3-stage evolution each time (seriously, take a note out of gen2 and gen3's book)? Also, look at Pokemon like Furfrou, Alcremie, Minior, or Vivillon and tell me they're not abusing the absolute hell out of the concept of alternate forms (whether the Pokemon themselves were good concepts is arguable, but the number of alternate forms they got seems to be a bit much). Speaking of alternate forms, while the number of new Pokemon in the last few generations seems smaller on paper, when you factor in the introduction of regional forms, Mega Evolutions, and so on, the new critters actually do seem more on par with previous generations (sans gen5).

Maybe they think that even if Sakurai forces a gimmick, then it is highly likely to be better than Miyamoto's gimmick?

I guess people have just been really soured by some of Miyamoto's actions in more recent years (especially concerning the Paper Mario series). Though, I think Smash4 should stand as reason to believe that Sakurai is far from infallible (and no, I'm not a fan of Uprising's controls, either).

 

[Trevenant]

If we had a boss that was meant to feel like fighting an actual character but it wasn't an actual character who should it be? Like a boss with more complexity in how they move and interact with the player, maybe even having to fight them in a traditional "launch them into the blast zone" fight rather than with a health bar. Something in between the general feel of Giga Bowser in Melee and Ultimate.

Basically recreating fighting game bosses or even Sephiroth Challenge but not to the point of "you could be a playable character and no one would bat an eye barring the fact you're broken as hell", because you don't wanna create a new full character that no one could play as.

Honestly, yeah I shoulda said fighting game bosses when I initially brought it up TBH lol... I really think Black knight is the perfect example considering he is all about intimidation with his assist... I think it should be a character with a sword for some reason, maybe cos a full on duel sounds really cool.... Either way, there are probably more possibilities for a super broken character like boss instead of giant punching bag boss like smash does now TBH... Yeah the latter is arguably a pretty common trope within video games as a whole, but in a fighting game, an actual challenging CPU like the Sephiroth challenge could be really cool...


Sidenote but I think people are too quick to assume that just cos a boss isn't ginormous means loads of effort went into scaling them with the rest of the roster therefore meaning they just did something they typically only do with playable characters tbh lol... Assist trophies show that scaling a character even if they aren't playable is hardly a big deal and this sort of concept could work fine if they have like 10 or so moves...