Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gorgonzales]

What's stopping them from porting every stage from Smash Ultimate into the next one?

I feel like this isn't a matter of "can we" but "should we" because I'm not a huge fan of half of Ultimate's stages, it's quantity over quality

 

[CannonStreak]

Speaking of stages, who wants to see vertical stages like Rumble Falls and Icicle Mountain again, if it does not hurt to ask?

 

[Louie G.]

Speaking of stages, who wants to see vertical stages like Rumble Falls and Icicle Mountain again, if it does not hurt to ask?

I don't love these stages, but also... why not? Providing the option is valuable, even if they're not to everyone's taste. I'd probably prefer that Icicle Mountain returns over Rumble Falls, but I have fond memories of chaotic matches on that stage too.

Although maybe under that circumstance, a randomizer where you can opt out certain stages (or characters) could be a valuable addition.

 

[superprincess]

Legit question here

What's stopping them from porting every stage from Smash Ultimate into the next one?

Obviously some may require to be cut due to rights issues. But everything else?


Like, stages aren't like characters, they don't really need rebalancing or reworking in the new game do they?

Could we hypothetically get every (discounting legal stuff) stage back while also getting a slew of new stages?

They'll eventually have to stop reusing stages as-is when Ultimate's graphics become outdated. Just look at how weird Temple and Onett looked in SSB4.

If the next system has a huge power upgrade, I could see them remaking a select few stages and then making all-new ones after that.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don't love these stages, but also... why not? Providing the option is valuable, even if they're not to everyone's taste.

Although maybe under that circumstance, a randomizer where you can opt out certain stages (or characters) could be a valuable addition.

That randomizer thing does sound like a good idea. I would be down for that!

 

[superprincess]

Rumble Falls would be fun. Icicle Mountain is a better representation of Ice Climber, but I hate slippery physics.

I don't love these stages, but also... why not? Providing the option is valuable, even if they're not to everyone's taste. I'd probably prefer that Icicle Mountain returns over Rumble Falls, but I have fond memories of chaotic matches on that stage too.

Although maybe under that circumstance, a randomizer where you can opt out certain stages (or characters) could be a valuable addition.

That randomizer already exists for stages!

 

[Louie G.]

That randomizer already exists for stages!

Oh whoops, shows how much I've utilized it then LOL.

In that case, that's a fantastic addition and all the more justification to bring back as many annoying and backwards stages as they like.

 

[Pupp135]

In terms of Single Player Modes, I think a World of Light like mode that adds like 5-10 platforming levels could be cool to see, making it kind of like an expanded Melee Adventure mode. Also, I’d love to see All-Star back to a prior game’s format where it is not a Mob Smash mode.

Speaking of stages, who wants to see vertical stages like Rumble Falls and Icicle Mountain again, if it does not hurt to ask?

I’m indifferent to these types of stages, but they would be cool to see return. I think an 8-bit version of Icicle Mountain could be cool to see where it’s similar to Popo’s Melee Target Test stage.

 

[CannonStreak]

In terms of Single Player Modes, I think a World of Light like mode that adds like 5-10 platforming levels could be cool to see, making it kind of like an expanded Melee Adventure mode. Also, I’d love to see All-Star back to a prior game’s format where it is not a Mob Smash mode.


I’m indifferent to these types of stages, but they would be cool to see return. I think an 8-bit version of Icicle Mountain could be cool to see where it’s similar to Popo’s Melee Target Test stage.

Oh, I would love to see an 8-bit version of Icicle Mountain now that you mention it! I think that kind of aesthetic would fit such a stage!

 

[JOJONumber691]

I guess I Mean Smash Run 2. I stand that Smash Run is the single greatest Single Player mode ever introduced to Smash so

Based!

 

[NintenRob]

They'll eventually have to stop reusing stages as-is when Ultimate's graphics become outdated. Just look at how weird Temple and Onett looked in SSB4.

If the next system has a huge power upgrade, I could see them remaking a select few stages and then making all-new ones after that.

Of course they will eventually, but in Smash Ultimate, every stage got updated to match the modern hardware.


Also Temple looked good in SSB4, what are you talking about? (I also have no qualms with how Onett looked either, but I get it wasn't really updated in SSB4)

 

[Louie G.]

Also, I’d love to see All-Star back to a prior game’s format where it is not a Mob Smash mode.

I was thinking this too, this might be the most crippling loss for me from Ultimate's single player content. It's just not the same.

I think I would have had it where characters spawn in order of when they were added to the series, and maybe we see pit stops between every game and fight opponents on a stage from their debut title. That'd be a bit more measured that previous all star modes but also maintains the more distinct feeling of progression. Just miss the rest areas, those are so memorable and make the experience feel special.

 

[NintenRob]

I feel like this isn't a matter of "can we" but "should we" because I'm not a huge fan of half of Ultimate's stages, it's quantity over quality

I do definitely understand this point of view. I'm generally "the more the merrier" type of guy but even I struggle with the stage select screen. It's such an information vomit that finding a specific stage is really hard. It needs a lot of reorganization and it may be worth investing in multiple pages like Brawl had.

 

[Garteam]

How does everyone feel about the s' chances of returning?

On the one hand, Miis seem to progressively feel like they're slowly being phased out and de-emphasized, developing three characters with twelve specials each is time-consuming, and they're consistently among the least popular and played characters on the roster.

On the other hand, they're the only base game characters that generate any income due to the DLC Mii costumes and the concept of Miis generally are pretty iconic to Nintendo as a modern entity. They're a tough one.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Does the system have a Mii creator? They're staying.

Does the system not have a Mii creator? They're gone.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Speaking of stages, who wants to see vertical stages like Rumble Falls and Icicle Mountain again, if it does not hurt to ask?

Everywhere is Here!


Just...remove the parts where they suddenly speed up and they'll be fine.

 

[NintenRob]

How does everyone feel about the s' chances of returning?

On the one hand, Miis seem to progressively feel like they're slowly being phased out and de-emphasized, developing three characters with twelve specials each is time-consuming, and they're consistently among the least popular and played characters on the roster.

On the other hand, they're the only base game characters that generate any income due to the DLC Mii costumes and the concept of Miis generally are pretty iconic to Nintendo as a modern entity. They're a tough one.

I don't like how Miis were implemented. They feel too separate from the rest of the cast, they don't have a classic route and are never selected by random. I also wish the rest of the cast got DLC costumes instead.

They'll probably be back though

 

[Pupp135]

How does everyone feel about the s' chances of returning?

On the one hand, Miis seem to progressively feel like they're slowly being phased out and de-emphasized, developing three characters with twelve specials each is time-consuming, and they're consistently among the least popular and played characters on the roster.

On the other hand, they're the only base game characters that generate any income due to the DLC Mii costumes and the concept of Miis generally are pretty iconic to Nintendo as a modern entity. They're a tough one.

I assume Miis are safe as long as they appear in some form as the console avatar, especially with the Mii costumes being a nice source of extra revenue/series representation.

 

[NintenRob]

Does the system have a Mii creator? They're staying.

Does the system not have a Mii creator? They're gone.

Nothing more, nothing less.

If the Switch 2 is backwards compatible, it kinda needs a Mii creator

 

[DarthEnderX]

Does the system have a Mii creator? They're staying.

Does the system not have a Mii creator? They're gone.

They're staying regardless. Even if Smash has to make it's own Mii creator. Mii costume DLC sells too well.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Given that Mii characters are still prominent in stuff like high sellers like Mario Kart and Switch Sports, I'd wager the idea is sticking around.

 

[Dukefire]

What is everyone's opinion on the parry mechanic? I like it since the payoff for a counterattack feels great.

 

[Noipoi]

What is everyone's opinion on the parry mechanic? I like it since the payoff for a counterattack feels great.

PERRY MECHANIC!?

 

[cashregister9]

I do really want a new proper Singleplayer smash bros. Campaign like Subspace. But also I do really like World Of Light and Spirits as a replacement for Event Matches so both together is like my ideal Singleplayer content for a Smash Game.

Also add Smash Run in there.

 

[NintenRob]

If Sakurai wanted to be smart with his resources, whatever assets are used to make a new story mode with platforming challenges like Subspace, could also be used to make new stages.

Think like how Halberd was both a stage and a Subspace Emissary mission, but on a much larger scale.

 

[superprincess]

What is everyone's opinion on the parry mechanic? I like it since the payoff for a counterattack feels great.

I really liked it at first, like the concept of it, but in practice... it feels weird to time a button release rather than a button press. It incentivizes you to just hold the shield button and let go when it's time, rather than momentarily shield and be done. The payoff for parrying a move also isn't that great. And parrying projectiles basically does nothing.

I'd make it so that tapping the shield button really quickly allows you to release your shield even quicker, so that parry can be used more often and not be as random and guess-dependent as it is now. I'd also make it so that, while in the "parry animation", you get a significant boost to your initial dash, if you choose to dash out of parry of course. That'd make it easier to approach projectile-happy zoners and cover the distance between you and your opponent.

The underlined part is one of my most wanted gameplay changes for a new Smash game. Speaking of, what are some gameplay changes you would wanna see in a new Smash? I have a lot of little problems with Ultimate's gameplay and mechanics decisions, so I'm open to hear your suggestions for some potential changes.

 

[Laniv]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

In Ultimate we didn't really see anyone get a full on rework, like Brawl Falco and Smash 4 Pit and Bowser. However, we did get a lot of quality of life changes that I don't think people appreciate as much as they should. Zelda and Sheik's Side Specials no longer putting them in freefall, Link's Remote Bomb, Ganondorf's sword smashes, Luigi's new tether grab with the Poltergust, Pikachu's new discharge N-air, Rosalina's new Star Spin-esque Nair, the list goes on and on. We also got some juicy animation/visual tweaks that made me really happy, such as Mario's Cape finally being, you know, a cape over his shoulder, instead of some sheet he swings around. I also love how DK carries opponents over his shoulder for cargo throw, like the kidnapped Pauline in the original Arcade game. Or how Bowser's Jab 1 is now a sumo-style palm strike. I'm also a big fan of Marth's new forward throw. Details like these make the characters feel fresh and new each time, even if they're as small as the ones listed above.

If it were up to me, we'd see a lot more of that attention to detail and refinement in every character. What Ultimate did is a great first step, but I'd love to see it taken even further. Give every fighter new visual flair, new animations, cool new attacks (where it fits, of course. I hate shoehorned references). Some need it because they're visually boring (DK and Yoshi come to mind), others need it because they're kinda out of character (Bowser, Samus and Wario come to mind) and others need it because they're just mechanically broken (of course, Steve and Sonic come to mind).

Give their Marioverse voices

Give his pogo tail

Give a heart magic?-based counter to replace Toad

Make stop transforming for every attack

Make 's d-air bounce off opponents if it hits. I miss the bounce

 

[Louie G.]

How does everyone feel about the s' chances of returning?

Near guaranteed given that, if the next console is simply a Switch 2, there's no reason to remove the built-in Mii maker and it will have to accommodate to the many cross-compatible games with Mii incorporation anyway.

On top of that, like you said, they make money. Mii Costumes are so deeply engrained into the fabric of Smash and its longterm income that it would outright just be a bad business decision to remove them. I suppose the alternative would be to release DLC costumes for the existing roster instead, which I would absolutely love, but that doesn't cultivate the sheer amount of crossover potential that the Miis do. Through Mii Costumes there's a vessel to represent a surplus of other characters and series that would get nothing otherwise, they're a big reason why Ultimate was able to increase so dramatically in scope.

And maybe most importantly to actual gameplay function, they are the only current example of a customizable character. Maybe they'll revisit this idea for the other characters, but for now it's exclusive to the Miis and it's a valuable feature to have. I do hope we expand on it further provided it's not very difficult to simply port over the existing attacks, it would be nice to have more attack options or even another Mii type. I think there are ways to make the Miis even more engaging than they currently are, but I'm very confident they're here to stay and may be one of the highest priority characters to boot.

They do presumably eat up triple dev time, but they're probably the greatest bang for your buck character on the roster. So it's more than worth it.

 

[chinkuru]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

In Ultimate we didn't really see anyone get a full on rework, like Brawl Falco and Smash 4 Pit and Bowser. However, we did get a lot of quality of life changes that I don't think people appreciate as much as they should. Zelda and Sheik's Side Specials no longer putting them in freefall, Link's Remote Bomb, Ganondorf's sword smashes, Luigi's new tether grab with the Poltergust, Pikachu's new discharge N-air, Rosalina's new Star Spin-esque Nair, the list goes on and on. We also got some juicy animation/visual tweaks that made me really happy, such as Mario's Cape finally being, you know, a cape over his shoulder, instead of some sheet he swings around. I also love how DK carries opponents over his shoulder for cargo throw, like the kidnapped Pauline in the original Arcade game. Or how Bowser's Jab 1 is now a sumo-style palm strike. I'm also a big fan of Marth's new forward throw. Details like these make the characters feel fresh and new each time, even if they're as small as the ones listed above.

If it were up to me, we'd see a lot more of that attention to detail and refinement in every character. What Ultimate did is a great first step, but I'd love to see it taken even further. Give every fighter new visual flair, new animations, cool new attacks (where it fits, of course. I hate shoehorned references). Some need it because they're visually boring (DK and Yoshi come to mind), others need it because they're kinda out of character (Bowser, Samus and Wario come to mind) and others need it because they're just mechanically broken (of course, Steve and Sonic come to mind).

Some changes that come to my mind:

-Diddy & Dixie tag team
-Wario moveset based in Wario Land transformations
-Ganondorf with the death man volley move
-Peach with Perry the parasol instead the regular umbrella
-Young Link based in Majora's Mask with the fierce deity final smash
-Banjo with the washing machine or T-Rex transformation as final smash
-Snake smoking taunt
-Grunty rhymes as Banjo taunt
-Pokedex entries as Pokemon trainner taunt

 

[Will]

-Snake smoking taunt

Not while this game is E10+

 

[Curious Villager]

How does everyone feel about the s' chances of returning?

On the one hand, Miis seem to progressively feel like they're slowly being phased out and de-emphasized, developing three characters with twelve specials each is time-consuming, and they're consistently among the least popular and played characters on the roster.

On the other hand, they're the only base game characters that generate any income due to the DLC Mii costumes and the concept of Miis generally are pretty iconic to Nintendo as a modern entity. They're a tough one.

I don't see any reason why Smash itself couldn't have a built in Mii creator even if the rest of Nintendo phased them out. I think a couple other games already do that and Ultimate itself is basically half way there where you can access the Switch Mii Maker from the game itself. They might even bring in a more elaborate version of it that can help make the Mii's look more authentic to the character you're trying to recreate if its not tethered to the console itself, like MiiTopia or whatever the game was that did that...

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

There's not many characters I feel are in need of a radical redesign... I'd say:

Toon Link - Give him the Deku Leaf as a new neutral special, the Grappling Hook as a new side special, and maybe the Skull Hammer for down smash. Make his up B able to travel on the ground when it's fully charged. Final Smash would use the Four Sword and summon the other three Links. I feel like Young Link works so much better than Toon as the smaller, faster Link and Toon has so many things from his games he doesn't use.

Rosalina - give her a way to control Luma's position after he's deployed. This would make me play her, but in general the way she works now feels kinda confusing and almost random?

Ike - I love Ike as a character, but he's so lame in Ultimate. You really spend most of the time jumping around and spamming two aerials. I'd say make him faster and give him a projectile to bring him more in line with the way he plays in his own games, but then that would be Cloud...

Lucario - he's just kind of a mess. His movements are weird and the Aura gimmick is frankly very lame. Most other comeback mechanics feel much better designed.

Banjo & Kazooie - the duo is very well designed imo, I'm just bringing them up because they're my main, but they either need to make their normal attacks flow better into each other (most of their combos outside of the Breegull Blaster stuff are actually 50:50s) or to make Wonderwing a real move. You have to put in so much work with this character as of now...

Ridley - MFW no pogo tail :'(

 

[fogbadge]

They're staying regardless. Even if Smash has to make it's own Mii creator. Mii costume DLC sells too well.

i think you hit the nail right on the head there

 

[DarthEnderX]

what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets?

-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on TotK Ganondorf.
-Make Black Shadow the Echo of Captain Falcon and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Make each of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon a separate Fighter, give every Pokemon except Mewtwo a trainer.
-Make Mythra into Pyra’s Echo.
-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

 

[Amornal1]

Yeah, again I understand and respect the perspective, I just don't think it's the reality we're living in anymore. I question whether or not it ever was, because in all honesty who would have predicted Solid Snake as our first third party character? And really, it was dead in the water when Joker was revealed and came with absolutely no SMT content and a full slate of content from games that were not available on Switch at the time. The same could be said of Cloud when he debuted in Smash 4. It's apparently not a set in stone priority - at least on "Nintendo's" end, the ones choosing the DLC whoever that technically is.

If I had full control, I'd be picking characters with closer ties. Or prioritizing obscure Nintendo series and secondary characters. Those are the characters I like best. The focus and scope of the series has just increased well beyond that being our only option, and given Microsoft's increased involvement in multi-platform gaming and generous participation in Smash Ultimate I just think we should acknowledge Master Chief as a real possibility, potentially alongside Halo ports which would alleviate this issue altogether. Personally, I don't think he would look even a little bit strange anymore compared to many of the other third parties we already have.

But yeah, it's not really intended to be my endorsement of how the roster should be, it's my perception based on the decisions that brought us to where the roster is now. I do like Master Chief, but he's kind of an outlier in respect to my general philosophy on what should be and how I would personally build a roster. Just hard to deny his cultural influence where I think that lack of connection would be ultimately shrugged off not unlike Sakurai has stated doing for Cloud.

Welp, now they're saying that only hi fi rush and sea of thieves are coming multiplatform. According to tom henderson, no less.

 

[Louie G.]

Welp, now they're saying that only hi fi rush and sea of thieves are coming multiplatform. According to tom henderson, no less.

Well, for now at least. If this is a longterm investement from Microsoft I'm sure this will manifest through other titles too, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Will]

Rosalina - give her a way to control Luma's position after he's deployed. This would make me play her, but in general the way she works now feels kinda confusing and almost random?

I think… you can already do that? What do you mean by “position”, because you can space with Luma although it requires an attack input to move him. Pro Rosa’s are 100% in control of that Luma.

Make Roy Marth's Echo.

Huh? They already decloned him in 4, what are you on about?

 

[Ivander]

Huh? They already decloned him in 4, what are you on about?

I mean, we still have people clamouring for Wolf to be an Echo, just because of his Specials. With no regard to his normal moves.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Huh? They already decloned him in 4, what are you on about?

Roy is not decloned from Marth. He's just less of a clone than he was. Just like Ganondorf.

 

[Louie G.]

The idea of Ganondorf / Black Shadow being an "echo" is fundamentally flawed because the differences dealt are too significant where the characters play absolutely nothing alike. Most echo fighters are at least comparable in physical stats. Ganondorf brings Falcon's top two speed down to one of the lowest in the game, his feel is entirely different since he needs to use his big, slow sweeping attacks and relies more on reads than Falcon's heavy emphasis on rushdown and combos. I feel like if the change is that drastic, there is no justification for designating a character as an echo. Ken gets by on technicality.

Honestly though, I feel like it's a waste of time arguing about clones in 2024. You either get it / accept it or you don't. I personally don't see much value in nitpicking how a character is technically referred to on the roster, it doesn't bother me that a character who is technically similar to another has their own space or designation. At the end of the day if they're playable, that's that.

It especially bothers me when I see people advocate for them to be downgraded to a costume, completely pointless reduction. Echo fighters are more or less already a fancy costume with different animations.

Give his pogo tail

I understand why I'm seeing so many people advocate for this, but I understand why they didn't do it too. That'd probably be pretty insane reach for a dair without making it weirdly short or noticeably reeled back, but I've seen a mod that changes Ridley's Down B to strike downward in the air so maybe that would be a good compromise? Because I agree that some sort of tail strike from above is missing from Ridley's essence but I feel it may be difficult to balance.

Maybe as long as it doesn't spike, you can have it so that it pops opponents up at an angle so it creates more of a combo starter scenario. Because otherwise that'd be a pretty busted offstage tool.