Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

what is up with the obsession over getting more 3rd party playable characters from franchises we already have ?

I don't really like the use of obsession here, it sounds condescending. You could say this very same thing about Nintendo series too, but nobody does.

Naturally the extremely popular third party series we already have in Smash are home to tons of beloved characters that people would be excited to see. I would, generally, rather see a new series represented too but I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. Grabbing another Sonic or Street Fighter character would probably come far easier than negotiating a brand new IP, and with those companies so ready and willing to contribute as is... if they want both, it's not a problem. They need to be judged on their own merits.

I don't think anyone saying they want Chun-Li, for example, would be upset at the prospect of pretty much anything else from Capcom's bountiful well of characters and properties. But Chun-Li is an immensely popular character who would have fans excited to see her cross over. She stands just as well as her own character as she does a "Street Fighter rep".

There are some series like Zelda or Sonic where people just want SOMETHING else, to counteract a sort of stagnation within their series, but on average people are asking for characters deliberately because they like them and have a personal attachment to them. And even in those aforementioned examples, fans haven’t quite rallied behind a single option but everyone has a preferred character. Knuckles has been my favorite Sonic character since I was a kid so he’s the one that I’d be most excited for.

 

[Gengar84]

i am also curious ;

what is up with the obsession over getting more 3rd party playable characters from franchises we already have ?

I would much rather expand into new franchises.

As a general rule, as far as third parties go, I do tend to find new franchise reps more exciting than additional characters from existing ones. It is a bit of a character by character basis for me though. Zero and Xemnas are still among my most wanted characters despite already having characters from their series. At the same time, Noah and Mio don’t quite make my list of personal most wanted characters even though Xenoblade is one of my favorite series.

New franchise reps give us a lot more than just the character themselves like music or stages. Using Chun-Li as an example, we wouldn’t necessarily get any new music that we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. She’d still be a great addition but I feel like it wouldn’t be quite as exciting for me as a brand new series. In the end, I just love seeing my favorite characters make it in whether they’re from new or existing franchises.

 

[Louie G.]

Using Chun-Li as an example, we wouldn’t necessarily get any new music that we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

I contest this a bit actually because with the current state of Street Fighter in Smash, the addition of another character might provoke them to diversify, update their slate of content and start pulling from other games beyond SFII. Chun-Li would almost certainly come with her costume from Alpha so I think there would be more pressure to add music or a stage from those games too.

For what it's worth, I don't disagree with your point but I see potential in some of these situations to expand into areas that the series hasn't been allowed to do yet. Theoretically that could be done with Ryu and Ken already, but adding a new character puts the series back in front as a priority and probably just incentivizes them to build on it even more. For something like Sonic or Street Fighter where said content is a bit underwhelming or limited, it's no wonder those are the two with the most vocal support for a new character. I think subconsciously we're all thinking of avenues for something fresh.

 

[Gengar84]

I contest this a bit actually because with the current state of Street Fighter in Smash, the addition of another character might provoke them to diversify, update their slate of content and start pulling from other games beyond SFII. Chun-Li would almost certainly come with her costume from Alpha so I think there would be more pressure to add music or a stage from those games too.

For what it's worth, I don't disagree with your point but I see potential in some of these situations to expand into areas that the series hasn't been allowed to do yet. Theoretically that could be done with Ryu and Ken already, but adding a new character puts the series back in front as a priority and probably just incentivizes them to build on it even more. For something like Sonic or Street Fighter where said content is a bit underwhelming or limited, it's no wonder those are the two with the most vocal support for a new character. I think subconsciously we're all thinking of avenues for something fresh.

That’s a fair point. Similarly, if we got Zero as a second Mega Man character, they could focus on the Mega Man X and Zero games. We did already get Central Highway and a few other themes from the X series but I imagine we’d get a lot more with Zero.

That does make me think though. Even though she’s not as popular as Chun-Li, someone like Juri Han could be a fun addition to Smash to represent Street Fighter IV-VI while Ryu and Ken can rep the older games. Not sure how Juri would be received with the Smash fan base but I’ve always liked the character and she works well as a rep for the modern games.

 

[Ivander]

I contest this a bit actually because with the current state of Street Fighter in Smash, the addition of another character might provoke them to diversify, update their slate of content and start pulling from other games beyond SFII. Chun-Li would almost certainly come with her costume from Alpha so I think there would be more pressure to add music or a stage from those games too.

While I don't deny that Chun-Li would likely bring some more content from Street Fighter beyond SF2, but while her Alpha costume is popular, I'd argue it's not a certainty because of her SF6 look. Like her original SF2 look and outfit is guaranteed, no doubt about that. But from a corporate standpoint, I could see them choosing her SF6 look for an alternate costume over her Alpha look. First for advertising SF6, and second because her SF6 outfit and design is very similar to her SF2 outfit and design and they can use her SF2 design as a base for the SF6 design to reduce the amount of work time.

 

[SPEN18]

Subspace was fun because unlocking characters and viewing their interactions in cutscenes was a good reward to keep going, but most of the moment-to-moment gameplay was pretty unremarkable. There was a lot of "go down this hallway while fighting a couple of enemies, fight a hoard of enemies, continue going down hallways". That's not worth losing 5-15 potential fighters over.

To be fair, I think the gameplay of Subspace could be tuned up with some better level design and more open exploration; the faults of the original Subspace aren't a reason to not do it again if they're fixable.

As for whether or not it's worth losing fighters over, well, it depends on how many and who those fighters are. But yeah it's definitely a workload tradeoff, which is why I don't really expect an expansive adventure mode, as much as I'd love it if it were possible with 60+ characters.

--

The Metroid-style thing people were talking about sounds fun but I think it would be pretty difficult to design around with such a large and diverse playable cast. I could see some neutered aspects of that, though, like certain collectibles or optional areas that can only be accessed by picking a character who can get across a large gap or up a tall shaft, or who have moves with certain properties like fire, water, etc. Just the full-on form of it where the main progression is based around that lock-and-key dynamic probably won't work (or at least you'd be a genius if you could design it well with so many characters, and with all possible sequence breaks carefully mapped out).

Making more character-specific stages would be possible, but would also likely necessitate a more linear format, or at least more linear segments, so there's a tradeoff to that as well. Maybe it's something to stick in the individualized Classic modes, or even possibly its own mode: kind of like individualized obstacle courses, with Event-Match-like scenarios where the objective is themed around source material.

 

[Louie G.]

While I don't deny that Chun-Li would likely bring some more content from Street Fighter beyond SF2, but while her Alpha costume is popular, I'd argue it's not a certainty because of her SF6 look. Like her original SF2 look and outfit is guaranteed, no doubt about that. But from a corporate standpoint, I could see them choosing her SF6 look for an alternate costume over her Alpha look. First for advertising SF6, and second because her SF6 outfit and design is very similar to her SF2 outfit and design and they can use her SF2 design as a base for the SF6 design to reduce the amount of work time.

I think the solution is that we give Chun-Li as many costumes as she wants.

Jokes aside I do think Alpha still gets precedent here, if other collaborations like Fortnite are any indication, but I'd welcome the addition of SF6 content for the sake of bringing Street Fighter up to speed. I would especially love if they gave Ken his SF6 outfit because that is absolutely my favorite design of his, and then I'm sure a lot of people would get a kick out of beard Ryu too. May as well extend that treatment across the board if we deal it to Chun-Li, but there's no point in doing that for Alpha costumes since Ryu and Ken already look so similar to their older counterparts.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I wouldn't say de-emphasization but more streamlined but yeah, my experiences will have to agree. I prefer Single-Player in Smash to based around what we have already then something complete new that goes against the grain.

God, so much this.

So many people are asking for platforming stages to come back, when most of the Smash roster are legit TERRIBLE platforming characters. So many of them just have awkward jumps or running, that works fine for a small battle area, but completely sucks for standard platforming traversal.

 

[Gengar84]

God, so much this.

So many people are asking for platforming stages to come back, when most of the Smash roster are legit TERRIBLE platforming characters. So many of them just have awkward jumps or running, that works fine for a small battle area, but completely sucks for standard platforming traversal.

I can’t speak for everyone but at least I personally don’t care as much about tight refined platforming mechanics as much as the feeling of exploring an environment with my friends as our favorite characters and fighting enemies along the way. It also provided a great opportunity for story and character interaction that the series has been lacking since. Since Smash is primarily a party fighter, it’s understandable that it won’t play as well as a traditional platformer. For me, that trade off is more than worth it for the rest of the experience it brings. Besides, attributes like run speed and jumps can be adjusted for that mode like they did in Brawl to make it play better.

 

[Sucumbio]

Whatever this new Smash game ends up being, if Nintendo hosts a prerelease tournament to advertise the new game like they did with Ultimate in 2018, I hope Sonic and/or Steve are playable in that demo and competitive players straight-up abuse them during the event. I'm talking full-on stalling and not interacting with the opponent by any means necessary, to show the Smash team their flawed designs and serve as a wake-up call to tone them down before release.

It worked for Bayonetta; Sakurai was reportedly shaking his head when he saw her pull off those ladder combos during 2018's invitational, lol

Maybe but I think Steve is about as polarizing as Brawl MK at this point and he'll be redesigned a bit like MK was.

 

[7NATOR]

If by that you mean Smash Run 2 then yeah. If not then keep that **** away from Smash at all costs.

I guess I Mean Smash Run 2. I stand that Smash Run is the single greatest Single Player mode ever introduced to Smash so

Horrified.

I don't need Street Fighter 6's World Tour Mode in Smash.

Battle Royal games are not Open World. They're just very large arenas.

As someone that did play World Tour Mode, I did have fun with it but I don't think it would fit Smash at all, So I agree on that aspect.

Large Arena is probably the better way of putting it. Either way, I think with Nintendo already dipping their foot in the Battle Royale Genre with Mario 35 and F-Zero 99 (and Namco too with Pac-Man 99), I think if this engine makes it a possiblity to do it with Smash, I could see them going for it. I also think would be perfect for Mario Kart 9 also. You could even call it Mario Kart 99

I could see a second Kingdom Hearts rep, but 100% confidence is pretty bold. Why do you think that?

100% is a pretty bold statement, but genuinely I could see it happening. But the question is... who? I think the one that make the most sense would be either Roxas or Riku, but you could also make a strong case for Aqua, Terra or even Xehanort (or maybe Xemnas) if you want a vilain rep. You could also just go the easy route and add Xion as an echo fighter (Roxas might work as an echo too, but I feel like the gimmick of being a dual Keyblade wielder is too fun to just give him the echo treatment).

Speaking of, I really hope that if the KH universe is back, we have a second stages and it's Traverse town. I really wish more third party could have 2 stages like Sonic and FF.

Okay I think 100% was Hyperbole on my end. I just think that the circumstances is ripe for another Kingdom Hearts character, and there is a bit of theory crafting on my end

So the theory I have is that with Sora, I think they negotiated Sora for not only FP2, but to also come back for whatever next Smash game there is. I think with FP2 they already had in mind that another Smash game was gonna happen in the future, and since Sora was the most requested character it would be a priority to make sure he's on the next roster. This also could apply to some of the other FP2 characters as well. Anyway if that is the case, then I think one of the Stipulations with having Sora in the Next Smash is that eventually there will be more Kingdom Hearts content in the future, likely in DLC I'd say.

I think that could also be why the Music Selection is strictly KH1, and that there's no Forces of Darkness in the Spirit battles, despite the Darkness being a crucial part of Kingdom Hearts franchise

Which brings me to who I think the next Character would be. I think Riku is up there, as he's the one that balances the Light and Dark in the series, and he's set to play a Primary part in KH4 (He might even be playable). He also just Popular and one of most re-occuring characters in the series.

My other Main option would be one of the Xehanorts, since they are the main Villains of the Whole Dark Seeker saga from KH1-KH3, including Spinoffs, and representative of the Darkness. Of them, I lean towards Xemnas because he's probably the Coolest one of them all and he has the Star Wars Sith Moveset going on.

and then the "Forbidden Option" would be Mickey Mouse. I know that the whole " Only Video Game Origin Characters" rule has been set numerous times by Sakurai... However, the fact that Disney is even in the room when it comes to Negotiations means that if Sakurai were to have his mind changed, now might be the time. We know if Mickey Mouse got in this game how big of a deal it would be, and I think Nintendo and Disney know that.

It makes sense, and I think that's a valid way to prefer the roster to be. I'm just convinced that's become less and less of a significant factor in Nintendo's own process, or at least in that process of measuring up certain characters they have opted for the ones with less history and more pull over the less popular, more insular options (Cloud AND Sephiroth > Terra / Black Mage / etc, Persona > Shin Megami Tensei). We also have Bayonetta and Banjo as examples of the opposite, so fair enough, although I think those two ring pretty loudly as exceptional cases who have extremely tight near familial ties to Nintendo.

Granted I don't see any really far reaching pulls like Chief getting brought on for base roster, which will probably remain regulated to the closer knit Nintendo-y series if I had to guess (at least as far as newcomers go). While DLC would probably continue to be more anything goes. Just given the way things have progressed so far it seems like a matter of time until we really breach the unspoken / long assumed Nintendo rule. Even though characters like Cloud or Joker have already challenged it so heavily.

I understand why people still clutch their pearls about this, and maybe treat it as more of a believe it when I see it scenario, so I hope in that case they hurry up and put Halo on Nintendo so we can move past this conversation. That won't automatically make Halo more Nintendo-relevant than say, Doom, but at least the one perceived hurdle that always muddles this discussion will be removed.

So I know that Nintendo Definitely made money from Premium characters like Steve, Sephiroth, and Sora, even though the game had by 2-3 years old by then, and also that People do buy new consoles, the Smash game, AND the DLC just to play a character like Steve in Smash, and I bet people would do the Same for Master Chief

But I have to wonder if it's also more feasible to have characters like Master Chief in Base game. Maybe not Chief himself, but using characters that appeal to audiences outside of Smash, and Nintendo in the base game could also be big for the Sales of the Base game, where most of the money would be made of the game, especially if you able to use the characters in Pre-Release advertising. Could we see this balancing act for Next Smash?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

i am also curious ;

what is up with the obsession over getting more 3rd party playable characters from franchises we already have ?

I would much rather expand into new franchises.

I kinda agree, would personally prefer more variety over most possibile double or triple drips.
But it makes sense. The Sonic, Street Fighter and Final Fantasy characters among others are just very popular. Personally I'd love for Knuckles to get in.
Gruntilda too tbh

 

[Louie G.]

But I have to wonder if it's also more feasible to have characters like Master Chief in Base game. Maybe not Chief himself, but using characters that appeal to audiences outside of Smash, and Nintendo in the base game could also be big for the Sales of the Base game, where most of the money would be made of the game, especially if you able to use the characters in Pre-Release advertising. Could we see this balancing act for Next Smash?

I feel like this manifests itself through bringing back characters like Cloud and Steve, rather than adding newcomers of that caliber to base roster. Particularly AAA western characters like Master Chief - I just think an effort like that involves a lot more cooperation and a language barrier that would make it easier to just delay for DLC when they have more time and resources to dedicate directly. And third party resources need to be managed conservatively, so I think priority goes toward keeping the biggest most important faces around as preference over a new character who would be more exciting to sell later.

I'm certain Microsoft will still have a presence in the base release since that dynamic and those original negotiations have already been settled, but working something like Halo into that equation means they'd have to go through it all over again. If they want big base roster IP pulls they could go for something more directly accessible like Resident Evil or Monster Hunter, or maybe something like Ninja Gaiden or Undertale which bring in new willing collaborators who are presumably cheaper and more simple to work with. Halo, or Crash or DOOM for that matter, just feel like the perfect DLC slate.

 

[superprincess]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

In Ultimate we didn't really see anyone get a full on rework, like Brawl Falco and Smash 4 Pit and Bowser. However, we did get a lot of quality of life changes that I don't think people appreciate as much as they should. Zelda and Sheik's Side Specials no longer putting them in freefall, Link's Remote Bomb, Ganondorf's sword smashes, Luigi's new tether grab with the Poltergust, Pikachu's new discharge N-air, Rosalina's new Star Spin-esque Nair, the list goes on and on. We also got some juicy animation/visual tweaks that made me really happy, such as Mario's Cape finally being, you know, a cape over his shoulder, instead of some sheet he swings around. I also love how DK carries opponents over his shoulder for cargo throw, like the kidnapped Pauline in the original Arcade game. Or how Bowser's Jab 1 is now a sumo-style palm strike. I'm also a big fan of Marth's new forward throw. Details like these make the characters feel fresh and new each time, even if they're as small as the ones listed above.

If it were up to me, we'd see a lot more of that attention to detail and refinement in every character. What Ultimate did is a great first step, but I'd love to see it taken even further. Give every fighter new visual flair, new animations, cool new attacks (where it fits, of course. I hate shoehorned references). Some need it because they're visually boring (DK and Yoshi come to mind), others need it because they're kinda out of character (Bowser, Samus and Wario come to mind) and others need it because they're just mechanically broken (of course, Steve and Sonic come to mind).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

For me the tightness of the platforming matters a great deal for a Smash mode if that's the majority of what you're doing in it. One of the reasons I'm not quite as fond of SSE as other single player SSB campaigns is that the core experience quite frankly wasn't that fun. The overemphasis on original enemies as opposed to ones from Nintendo franchises and the rather bland aesthetics of much of the levels certainly didn't help, but so many of the issues came from the level design being so basic to accommodate multiple different characters and the actual platforming lacking any real sense of flow to it.

I do think there is a hypothetical ideal single player mode taking the pacing from Adventure Mode in Melee, the cutscenes in Brawl, the core aspects from Smash Run in 4, & the select spirit matches from Ultimate's World of Light. But as far as extensive platforming, unless individual levels are made to match individual fighters, I just don't think it really makes for an ideal campaign mode.

 

[Will]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

should’ve had a way to use Hydro Storm, imo

 

[Garteam]

Tekken 8 spoilers below:

Spoiler

I wonder if Angel Jin helps Jin's chances of getting in as a Kazuya echo by being based on his appearance in Tekken 3, similar to Ken being an echo of Ryu by being based on his appearance in Street Fighter 2. One of the biggest issues with this, however, was Jin using the Devil Gene felt massively out of character and something that Harada would veto. However, Angel Jin could theoretically be slotted in for the moves that have Kazuya transform into Devil Kazuya without breaking the core of Jin's character.

Also, there's no way True Devil Kazuya isn't going to be Kazuya's new final smash lol.

 

[Sucumbio]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

In Ultimate we didn't really see anyone get a full on rework, like Brawl Falco and Smash 4 Pit and Bowser. However, we did get a lot of quality of life changes that I don't think people appreciate as much as they should. Zelda and Sheik's Side Specials no longer putting them in freefall, Link's Remote Bomb, Ganondorf's sword smashes, Luigi's new tether grab with the Poltergust, Pikachu's new discharge N-air, Rosalina's new Star Spin-esque Nair, the list goes on and on. We also got some juicy animation/visual tweaks that made me really happy, such as Mario's Cape finally being, you know, a cape over his shoulder, instead of some sheet he swings around. I also love how DK carries opponents over his shoulder for cargo throw, like the kidnapped Pauline in the original Arcade game. Or how Bowser's Jab 1 is now a sumo-style palm strike. I'm also a big fan of Marth's new forward throw. Details like these make the characters feel fresh and new each time, even if they're as small as the ones listed above.

If it were up to me, we'd see a lot more of that attention to detail and refinement in every character. What Ultimate did is a great first step, but I'd love to see it taken even further. Give every fighter new visual flair, new animations, cool new attacks (where it fits, of course. I hate shoehorned references). Some need it because they're visually boring (DK and Yoshi come to mind), others need it because they're kinda out of character (Bowser, Samus and Wario come to mind) and others need it because they're just mechanically broken (of course, Steve and Sonic come to mind).

Honestly the only vet I have a problem with is Little Mac and honestly you could fix him with keeping him exactly the same except when off stage be gets a different first jump animation which draws a small version of the ring under his feet and lets him spring twice jump height and no second jump but enough hang time to side b back ... Kinda like BK I suppose. It'd need intangibility, armor, snap to ledge etc... but this way he can survive the 10k ways to gimp him ... Maybe even cutting it down to normal so long as you don't get greedy like Wolf or Roy mains have to learn lol this would still keep his design philosophy intact since we're still in the world where Doc in the trailer best said it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

It makes sense, and I think that's a valid way to prefer the roster to be. I'm just convinced that's become less and less of a significant factor in Nintendo's own process, or at least in that process of measuring up certain characters they have opted for the ones with less history and more pull over the less popular, more insular options (Cloud AND Sephiroth > Terra / Black Mage / etc, Persona > Shin Megami Tensei). We also have Bayonetta and Banjo as examples of the opposite, so fair enough, although I think those two ring pretty loudly as exceptional cases who have extremely tight near familial ties to Nintendo.

Granted I don't see any really far reaching pulls like Chief getting brought on for base roster, which will probably remain regulated to the closer knit Nintendo-y series if I had to guess (at least as far as newcomers go). While DLC would probably continue to be more anything goes. Just given the way things have progressed so far it seems like a matter of time until we really breach the unspoken / long assumed Nintendo rule. Even though characters like Cloud or Joker have already challenged it so heavily.

I understand why people still clutch their pearls about this, and maybe treat it as more of a believe it when I see it scenario, so I hope in that case they hurry up and put Halo on Nintendo so we can move past this conversation. That won't automatically make Halo more Nintendo-relevant than say, Doom, but at least the one perceived hurdle that always muddles this discussion will be removed.

I'll always see Smash as more about Nintendo than anything else. That remains the theme of the series, so the whole Nintendo connection is very important to me. A character having their games on Nintendo consoles prior to appearing in Smash is something I'd rather prefer. At least some kind of prior connection to Nintendo would make more sense than nothing at all. It's like they come first before anything else and it would be a good way to showcase what the series is centered around. Master Chief may be an iconic and very popular character but it would look random see him was in Smash if Nintendo has no connection to his series at all.

 

[Will]

Tekken 8 spoilers below:

Spoiler

I wonder if Angel Jin helps Jin's chances of getting in as a Kazuya echo by being based on his appearance in Tekken 3, similar to Ken being an echo of Ryu by being based on his appearance in Street Fighter 2. One of the biggest issues with this, however, was Jin using the Devil Gene felt massively out of character and something that Harada would veto. However, Angel Jin could theoretically be slotted in for the moves that have Kazuya transform into Devil Kazuya without breaking the core of Jin's character.

Also, there's no way True Devil Kazuya isn't going to be Kazuya's new final smash lol.

Being an Angel but only having a Mishima move set would also be something Harada would veto, right?

 

[Gengar84]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

In Ultimate we didn't really see anyone get a full on rework, like Brawl Falco and Smash 4 Pit and Bowser. However, we did get a lot of quality of life changes that I don't think people appreciate as much as they should. Zelda and Sheik's Side Specials no longer putting them in freefall, Link's Remote Bomb, Ganondorf's sword smashes, Luigi's new tether grab with the Poltergust, Pikachu's new discharge N-air, Rosalina's new Star Spin-esque Nair, the list goes on and on. We also got some juicy animation/visual tweaks that made me really happy, such as Mario's Cape finally being, you know, a cape over his shoulder, instead of some sheet he swings around. I also love how DK carries opponents over his shoulder for cargo throw, like the kidnapped Pauline in the original Arcade game. Or how Bowser's Jab 1 is now a sumo-style palm strike. I'm also a big fan of Marth's new forward throw. Details like these make the characters feel fresh and new each time, even if they're as small as the ones listed above.

If it were up to me, we'd see a lot more of that attention to detail and refinement in every character. What Ultimate did is a great first step, but I'd love to see it taken even further. Give every fighter new visual flair, new animations, cool new attacks (where it fits, of course. I hate shoehorned references). Some need it because they're visually boring (DK and Yoshi come to mind), others need it because they're kinda out of character (Bowser, Samus and Wario come to mind) and others need it because they're just mechanically broken (of course, Steve and Sonic come to mind).

I’d love to see Ganondorf get a complete rework that takes moveset inspiration from both classic pig Ganon and his Ocarina moveset. Basically a floaty mage with a big spear that he can toss and teleport. Lucario could really use his energy bone staff and Naruto-like running animation it has in other games and media. I would have liked to see a Diddy/Dixie pairing but I feel it’s probably a bit late for that at this point. I suppose Samus got a later transformation in Brawl so it’s not impossible but I’m not expecting it. The only other thing I really want is for Link to get his hookshot back. Other than that, I’m pretty content with most veterans’ movesets.

 

[NintenRob]

I may be in the minority in this, but I'd personally prefer to expand the franchises in Smash over adding more (Though we should absolutely do a mix of both)

But my favourite franchises are the ones already in Smash so it's only natural I'd prefer to see more from those franchises.

 

[Louie G.]

I'll always see Smash as more about Nintendo than anything else. That remains the theme of the series, so the whole Nintendo connection is very important to me. A character having their games on Nintendo consoles prior to appearing in Smash is something I'd rather prefer. At least some kind of prior connection to Nintendo would make more sense than nothing at all. It's like they come first before anything else and it would be go way to showcase what the series is centered around. Master Chief may be an iconic and very popular character but it would look random see him was in Smash if Nintendo has no connection to his series at all.

Yeah, again I understand and respect the perspective, I just don't think it's the reality we're living in anymore. I question whether or not it ever was, because in all honesty who would have predicted Solid Snake as our first third party character? And really, it was dead in the water when Joker was revealed and came with absolutely no SMT content and a full slate of content from games that were not available on Switch at the time. The same could be said of Cloud when he debuted in Smash 4. It's apparently not a set in stone priority - at least on "Nintendo's" end, the ones choosing the DLC whoever that technically is.

If I had full control, I'd be picking characters with closer ties. Or prioritizing obscure Nintendo series and secondary characters. Those are the characters I like best. The focus and scope of the series has just increased well beyond that being our only option, and given Microsoft's increased involvement in multi-platform gaming and generous participation in Smash Ultimate I just think we should acknowledge Master Chief as a real possibility, potentially alongside Halo ports which would alleviate this issue altogether. Personally, I don't think he would look even a little bit strange anymore compared to many of the other third parties we already have.

But yeah, it's not really intended to be my endorsement of how the roster should be, it's my perception based on the decisions that brought us to where the roster is now. I do like Master Chief, but he's kind of an outlier in respect to my general philosophy on what should be and how I would personally build a roster. Just hard to deny his cultural influence where I think that lack of connection would be ultimately shrugged off not unlike Sakurai has stated doing for Cloud.

 

[7NATOR]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

In Ultimate we didn't really see anyone get a full on rework, like Brawl Falco and Smash 4 Pit and Bowser. However, we did get a lot of quality of life changes that I don't think people appreciate as much as they should. Zelda and Sheik's Side Specials no longer putting them in freefall, Link's Remote Bomb, Ganondorf's sword smashes, Luigi's new tether grab with the Poltergust, Pikachu's new discharge N-air, Rosalina's new Star Spin-esque Nair, the list goes on and on. We also got some juicy animation/visual tweaks that made me really happy, such as Mario's Cape finally being, you know, a cape over his shoulder, instead of some sheet he swings around. I also love how DK carries opponents over his shoulder for cargo throw, like the kidnapped Pauline in the original Arcade game. Or how Bowser's Jab 1 is now a sumo-style palm strike. I'm also a big fan of Marth's new forward throw. Details like these make the characters feel fresh and new each time, even if they're as small as the ones listed above.

If it were up to me, we'd see a lot more of that attention to detail and refinement in every character. What Ultimate did is a great first step, but I'd love to see it taken even further. Give every fighter new visual flair, new animations, cool new attacks (where it fits, of course. I hate shoehorned references). Some need it because they're visually boring (DK and Yoshi come to mind), others need it because they're kinda out of character (Bowser, Samus and Wario come to mind) and others need it because they're just mechanically broken (of course, Steve and Sonic come to mind).

---I actually want Steve to stay the way he is in terms of the Strength of his attacks. Steve doing so much damage on hit with his combos, especially with Diamond is fun. Actually I would buff him so he both Mine and get materials faster than he does now.

I would just decrease his weight to being the lightest in the game. Block could be a good way of staying alive in spite of this weight increase, but I don't think Steve should be as heavy as he is. He's not even that heavy actually but with his Toolkit it's too much

---For Sonic, First I would combine Spin-Charge and Spindash into one move. Tap for Spindash, Hold for Spin-Charge. I would remove the hitbox on both attacks when jumping if no Opponent as been hit, and I would make both Stop instantly on shield, but make both able to be Jump Cancel even when starting to charge. Would also be cool to keep the momentum from the Spindash/Spin-charge for further distances

His Side Special, I would make it Light Speed Dash, in which if you Dash through an Opponent, they get non Personal'd and get Wind Slashed. Would be flashy

and for Homing Attack, I would make it easier to intercept, but Decrease the startup and the endlag of the move, so you can spam it like in a Real Sonic game. When holding, you can go straight down and Bounce of floors for Increased height in the air

---For the FGC Characters, I would add the option to turn Auto-turnaround off if you want too. For Ryu and Ken, I hope they find some way to make it easier to different the input between light, medium, and strong(Smash) Attacks. It's kind of cumbersome, especially in fast paced matches to get eactly Light or medium sometimes

And also an Option to only do Input moves with the Special Button, so no accidently Tatsumakis when trying to do Normals. Same thing goes for Terry also

---For Sephiroth, Make Shadowflare Plus on hit, not much (something like +1 or +2). That's it

 

[Guynamednelson]

Secondary characters from third-party franchises also allow more third parties generally to enter Smash without racking up the licensing costs to an absurd degree, which is a relevant consideration when there's a very solid chance that the next Smash game would need to acquire about 10 licenses to get the third-parties that most people agree will return.

This is part of the reason why I suggest that if there's a late DLC pass, it'll involve characters that already have models in-game-eventually, regardless if there's going to be a late pass or not, they're going to have to talk with Konami/Capcom/Sega/etc. to keep selling SSBU with all their characters featured in it, and it would be easier if the discussions don't involve adding new companies/IPs.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

---I actually want Steve to stay the way he is in terms of the Strength of his attacks. Steve doing so much damage on hit with his combos, especially with Diamond is fun. Actually I would buff him so he both Mine and get materials faster than he does now.

I would just decrease his weight to being the lightest in the game. Block could be a good way of staying alive in spite of this weight increase, but I don't think Steve should be as heavy as he is. He's not even that heavy actually but with his Toolkit it's too much

I'm gonna be honest, him mining faster would matter far more then his weight. When it comes to competitive Smash, you would be buffing the best and most controversial character in the game already by a solid margin, enough for some regions to flat out ban him.

Please don't do that, it's a silly idea.

 

[Garteam]

Being an Angel but only having a Mishima move set would also be something Harada would veto, right?

It's tough to say, but I think it'll depend on how what Angel Jin's moveset looks like when he's inevitably added as DLC in Tekken 8. If he's using Mishima karate as he does as a boss, I imagine Harada will be fine with Jin using Mishima karate in Smash because he would've most likely vetoed the Mishima stuff at this stage if he was truly as concerned with lore and characterization as we think. If he receives significant changes that seriously distinguish Devil and Angel Jin, then Jin is in trouble unless Sakurai is willing to make him a unique fighter or Harada recognizes that making Jin a Kazuya clone is the only way he's realistically getting in Smash.

 

[MasterCheef]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

Pit’s Neutral Air = stab on both sides
Pit’s specials ; down = Meteor Shower , & , down = Centurion Orbitars
Centurion Orbitars = fire shots arc in flight & are powerful at close range
*arrows via Palutena’s bow = more distance increases speed & Knock-back .
Pit’s Forward air = Pit’s swords spin vertically in front of him

Palutena’s forward tilt = frame 9 startup & , jab = frame 7 startup
Palutena’s ( F-air ) , a single fast jab w/ staff using her symbol
Palutena’s ( up air ) would be a single fast medium KB smaller hit-box
Palutena’s ( n-air ) would be like Sephiroth’s , rather using her symbol
Palutena’s = low air speed = ( .55 ) = , & , walk speed = 1.55 , & ZERO run
Palutena’s side special = Angelic missile + diagonal options & low end lag
Palutena’s up special = light rings liftoff = surrounds via rings of light
& knocks her opponent back & she flies up into the air & diagonal options
Palutena’s down special = Super speed , & attacks same as dash attack
Palutena’s neutral special = Centurion Knight , who charges Forward
Palutena’s up taunt = light bolt = create 3 spheres of light above her
vertically. The bolts will rapidly fire 1 at a time from top to bottom

Samus’ side special = Flash Shift = allows travel a set distance forward or
backward instantaneously, & usable , up to 3 times consecutively.
Samus’ Special ; Neutral = storm missile , & , up = Shine Spark
Samus’ down special = Battle hammer = fires green energy globules along an
arching path & has a splash-damaging explosion upon impact
Samus Down taunt = bomb drop & up air = screw attack

Pyra’s specials ; side = flame Nova , & , neutral = Blazing End
Pyra’s specials ; down = prominence revolt , & , up = Burning Sword
Mythra’s & Pyra’s , Final Smash = Pnuema = Radiant flare / Genesis Saber
Mythra’s specials ; down = Sacred Arrow , & , neutral = Radiance Bomb
Mythra & Pyra ; dash attack = forward stab

Isabelle‘s , Specials ; Neutral = Pushy Lloid , & , up = Liftoff Lloid
Isabelle’s , Specials ; down = projectile Pocket , & , side = same
Isabelle‘s ; taunts , down = Lloid bury , & , up air = exploding balloons

Inkling’s , Specials ; down = Splat charger , & , Neutral = trizooka
Inkling’s , Specials ; side = undercover Brella

Mario’s , Specials ; down = Spike ball , & , side = Cappy
Mario‘s , transform Specials ; up = flying squirrel, & , Neutral = elephant

Yoshi‘s , Specials ; down = unchanged , & , up = wing transform
Yoshi’s , Specials ; Neutral = fireball , & , side = egg toss

Pikachu‘s , Specials ; Neutral = charge beam , & , side = wild charge
Pikachu’s , Specials ; down = lightning strike , & , up = fly
Pikachu’s , Aerials ; back = Iron Tail , & , down = disarming voice
Lucario‘s , up Special = Aerial Ace , & , side smash = Steel beam
Lucario’s , Specials ; down = Flash Cannon , & , side = Meteor Mash

Kirby’s ability Aerials ; Neutral = Crystal Needle , & down = Twin Drill
Kirby‘s Down special = U.F.O. = 1st press transforms , then 2nd press
activates grab. U.F.O. = command grab beam lasts up to 3 seconds
Special transform ability ; side = Fire Dragon , & Neutral = Space Ranger
Kirby’s up Special = Jet = jet transform & Diagonal options
Kirby‘s taunts ; down = ( stone + & KB = nerfed ) , & side = inhale
ability copied = Kirby uses opponent’s down special
Kirby’s run speed nerf = 1.58 & weight nerf = 67

Demon King Ganondorf
Ganondorf‘s ; taunts , up = Too Weak! , down = warlock punch
Ganondorf‘s , Aerials ; ( Forward & back ) = gloom club swing
G’s Walk speed buff = 1.29 & air speed nerf = .44 & ZERO running
Ganondorf‘s , Horizontal Smash attack = gloom club swing & attacks properly
He starts the swing with the gloom club vertically above his head
Ganondorf‘s , Specials ; Neutral = gloom shots , & , up = levitate
Ganondorf’s aerial neutral Special = Wizard’s stunning volley
WSV = shoots out a medium ball of electricity w/ high hit-stun
Ganondorf’s , Specials ; down = gloom burst , & , side = Spear Charge
Spear Charge only goes diagonally down at a 30 degree angle in air
Ganondorf’s aerial side Special = Wizard’s Rising Gloom Grab
WRGG = Ganondorf Levitates up & grabs opponent & shocks them with gloom
WRGG = causes plenty of hit-stun for a follow up hit

 

[Louie G.]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

Kirby needs his Slide kick as his down tilt. I'm really just kind of baffled at why he doesn't have it, when Mega Man introduced a similar move back in Smash 4 and several other characters have adopted the concept. Even King Dedede has a down tilt that gives him forward momentum, but not Kirby whose slide has been one of the few moves he can use without any copy abilities as far back as Kirby's Adventure. And being a character who already excels at horizontal combos, this would fit in perfectly with his existing kit.

I think Samus needs a makeover after Samus Returns and Dread. Her floatiness is something that Sakurai values and would probably want to keep around, I respect it, but a stronger emphasis on her acrobatic ability and less awkward takes on her melee combat would be appreciated. I'm not in favor of giving Samus a counter, but making one of her smash attacks resemble her new Melee Counter and maybe her slide would probably be a lot cooler than the little blaster farts we have right now. I'm not in favor of making her too complicated with a whole beam switching mechanic either, but maybe ice or plasma particle effects on certain moves would be neat.

Not gonna lie, Charizard is just kind of boring. I want them to give him more flair, more flashy spins and aerial prowess. Squirtle and Ivysaur are super fun, but then you get to Charizard and he's just like "yep, that's him". Flare Blitz was a good addition, maybe we just need more attacks with that level of showiness and strong fire particle effects. A visual / animation overhaul would probably go a long way. And while we're on Pokemon, Lucario just does not work for me. Aura is unintuitive and kind of just pointless when rage is a universal mechanic, fighting him is boring and playing him is boring. There are a lot of ways we could spice him up, but I think giving him some attacks based off Bone Rush and maybe improving his base ground and fall speed could be interesting. In general I feel like he feels slower than he has any right to be.

Bit of a wacky one, but Pit needs some spice. So what if Pit's Up B did not put you in freefall, and allowed you to attack out of it? As is the move has no function other than recovery, but this simple change makes it a dangerous chasing tool to get you right next to your opponent to land a couple more aerials. I don't think giving Pit more options in the air would do any harm, seeing how his "honesty" is currently his detriment and well... the guy has wings. So let's give him a reason to be feared in the air and offstage.

Give him at least one more jump. Please...

Finish the job. Isabelle feels undercooked, like they wanted to make her fully unique but gave up halfway. I love the original stuff she has going on, but her current gameplan feels too similar to Villager even compared to other derivative characters like Lucas or Falco who are at least given unique strengths. Isabelle and Villager both excel at keepaway in the air with their slingshot, so for all intents and purposes we're playing the same game. I'm not sure what I'd change it to, but I'd like them to compliment her unique trapper based kit a little better. And improve her smash attack hitboxes, fsmash and usmash are pretty pitiful and Isabelle could use the extra range when it's hard enough to approach as is. Maybe the stop sign can be taller so we can poke through Battlefield platforms.

 

[Shinuto]

This is part of the reason why I suggest that if there's a late DLC pass, it'll involve characters that already have models in-game-eventually, regardless if there's going to be a late pass or not, they're going to have to talk with Konami/Capcom/Sega/etc. to keep selling SSBU with all their characters featured in it, and it would be easier if the discussions don't involve adding new companies/IPs.

That's...not how non playable charcter models work...at all.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's...not how non playable charcter models work...at all.

I...know that. Not having to negotiate for additional IPs when you're talking to third-party companies so you can keep selling a game with Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu etc. would just be a side effect.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I kinda agree, would personally prefer more variety over most possibile double or triple drips.

Mostly prefer new franchises as well, but if a 2nd/3rd character is particularly iconic, I don't have a problem with them getting in. Especially if they are popular enough to get their own spinoff game/series.

Gaming icons like Sephiroth, Chun Li, Bison, Zero, Alucard, Raiden, etc. are all acceptable additional characters to me.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I know this is a question that comes up often, but I still find it interesting to talk about: what changes would you guys like to see in the veterans' movesets? These changes can range from simple buffs/nerfs, outright new moves, or even wholly revamped movesets.

Please please please PLEASE I need them to do SOMETHING with Olimar next game (that isn't a superfluous addition like... a cracked helmet), his design right now feels half-baked and that's not even mentioning the multitude of aesthetic problems he has right now.

quoted from an earlier post of mine:

Ever since Smash 4 he's had an identity crisis and it's like the dev team doesn't know what to do with him. He needs a total moveset overhaul, his kit currently encourages Pikmin sacrifice (cause they're easy meat shields and you're never penalized for losing them) instead of keeping them alive, which is incredibly backwards to both Pikmin as a series and Olimar as a character. He's also missing his voice and the ability to emote other than just, surprise. Not to mention his animations which often blend into one another, and don't show off his personality at all. Right now it's easy for a new player to mistake him for a mute, cowardly tyrant that hides behind his minions when that's just... not the case at all.

I want Olimar to be revamped so that he has more Pikmin on the field, is penalized for losing Pikmin, and can command Pikmin in more elaborate ways than just throwing (like dismissing a Pikmin in place and having it perform a command remotely). Goes without saying but give him his voice and personality too. It feels like Olimar's character in Smash has always been a very superficial interpretation of who he actually is. Let my man smile and express worry, I hate how he's had no changes in expressiveness since his introduction.

This is just screaming to be a victory pose and I'd greatly prefer it to the... nothing he has now. More of this confident & stoic Olimar, less "haha he looks like a dumb sleepwalking astronaut" Olimar.

 

[Noipoi]

Sonic still needs a second character I will die on this hill

 

[CannonStreak]

Sonic still needs a second character I will die on this hill

I would prefer Eggman as that second Sonic rep, personally. Tails is not bad, though.

 

[Noipoi]

I would prefer Eggman as that second Sonic rep, personally. Tails is not bad, though.

At this rate I feel like it’ll be Shadow

 

[CannonStreak]

At this rate I feel like it’ll be Shadow

Maybe. He is a big character, though I personally find him to be overrated. So while he is popular, he is personally not my pick.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Finish the job. Isabelle feels undercooked, like they wanted to make her fully unique but gave up halfway. I love the original stuff she has going on, but her current gameplan feels too similar to Villager even compared to other derivative characters like Lucas or Falco who are at least given unique strengths. Isabelle and Villager both excel at keepaway in the air with their slingshot, so for all intents and purposes we're playing the same game. I'm not sure what I'd change it to, but I'd like them to compliment her unique trapper based kit a little better. And improve her smash attack hitboxes, fsmash and usmash are pretty pitiful and Isabelle could use the extra range when it's hard enough to approach as is. Maybe the stop sign can be taller so we can poke through Battlefield platforms.

What's weird about Isabelle is that if this is any indication

(see timestamp)
She's supposed to "fight using office supplies and public property". Now, the stop sign up smash would count as the latter, but the rest of her animations, when they ARE distinct from Villager, don't really count as either except maybe the broom?

At least the video says she's meant to be a variation on Villager anyway.

 

[Louie G.]

She's supposed to "fight using office supplies and public property". Now, the stop sign up smash would count as the latter, but the rest of her animations, when they ARE distinct from Villager, don't really count as either except maybe the broom?

Oh wow, I totally missed that part in this video. That's really interesting!

Obviously those decisions can change during development, assuming Sakurai didn't have her whole moveset mapped out at the time, but it does seem pretty undercooked compared to the initial concept. It makes sense that she was always planned to be a variation on Villager, but she's an odd case compared to Lucas / Falco where their normals are very different vs derivative specials, and Isabelle has unique specials but some similar normals.

One change I'd like to see them make with the office supplies part in mind is that when she trips, she drops a clipboard and scatters papers in front of her rather than the current pot. I don't mind it as is, but I think it's more characteristic that way and opens the door to give it unique practicality. Maybe the paper has a short lingering hitbox that can trip opponents? That would play a little bit further into Isabelle's current emphasis on stage control, and give her some followup options. ...I realize that sounds annoying, it might be a little extreme for a dash attack, I'm just spitballing. But using that original framework opens the door for further variation that I'd like to see them play with.

 

[NintenRob]

Legit question here

What's stopping them from porting every stage from Smash Ultimate into the next one?

Obviously some may require to be cut due to rights issues. But everything else?


Like, stages aren't like characters, they don't really need rebalancing or reworking in the new game do they?

Could we hypothetically get every (discounting legal stuff) stage back while also getting a slew of new stages?