Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Amornal1]

Isabelle was mainly a semi-clone because she had a fundamentally different bodyshape from Villager. She could've otherwise been closer to Ken, an Echo, but with some distinct moves. That or a regular clone like Dr. Mario with very distinct moves, but still borrows a lot from Villager. The main thing is that since she can't use the exact same bodyshape, she has to be less clone-y no matter what.

Shadow doesn't suffer from this issue and can easily be a Chrom-like one with a distinct move while still being pretty accurate. Jin I'm not sure could do the same moves, as the mechanic for Kazuya isn't just the alternate attacks(which might be difficult to work with anyway), but the devil form. If both can be done, it's possible. But it's a lot of work for one Echo too. A lot more than other Echoes. So it's unlikely due more to that than anything else.

Also, please try to avoid double posting. You can quote multiple messages at once to avoid this issue.

What is double posting?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What is double posting?

Posting more than once in a row.

 

[Amornal1]

Posting more than once in a row.

Oh okay.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Honestly, unless an echo incentivizes a different playstyle from their base like Ken, I don't really want any echos next time around. I'd much rather have every character on the roster be unique. Most echos are barely different and might as well not be there to begin with, it's like they accidentally copied and pasted the same character so now there's two of them on the roster.

 

[NintenRob]

Honestly, I'd rather have characters like Daisy and Dark Samus on the roster then not on the roster. And if they have to be an echo fighter, so be it. It's not like they took any development time away from actual fighters. That's the point of being an echo fighter, they take up very little development time and require basically no balancing.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Honestly, I'd rather have characters like Daisy and Dark Samus on the roster then not on the roster. And if they have to be an echo fighter, so be it. It's not like they took any development time away from actual fighters. That's the point of being an echo fighter, they take up very little development time and require basically no balancing.

Yeah. It may take all of Ultimate’s echoes to make up just one unique fighter.

 

[fogbadge]

Honestly, unless an echo incentivizes a different playstyle from their base like Ken, I don't really want any echos next time around. I'd much rather have every character on the roster be unique. Most echos are barely different and might as well not be there to begin with, it's like they accidentally copied and pasted the same character so now there's two of them on the roster.

accidentally copy pasted is dark pits origin story

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, unless an echo incentivizes a different playstyle from their base like Ken, I don't really want any echos next time around. I'd much rather have every character on the roster be unique. Most echos are barely different and might as well not be there to begin with, it's like they accidentally copied and pasted the same character so now there's two of them on the roster.

...4 out of 7 isn't saying much. Chrom, Lucina, and Ken play quite differently in practice. Dark Pit has a different Final Smash. Dark Samus and Richter have some elemental differences. Only Daisy is outright impossible to tell she has an actual hurtbox difference, which clearly is not enough.

Besides that, they have more than enough different animations and personality that they don't even feel like glorified costumes so much as a simple clone gameplay character that is more personal preference. Remember, characters aren't outright functions here. Nor do character costumes allow for any kind of gameplay difference(this is due to how results are done. And why many were split off, because they are ultimately different characters in some way). If you play as Daisy, you'll only get results for Daisy, not Peach. This is fully intentional to make sure they're treated as a proper character, but only as a gameplay thing.

Of course, other alts do suffer, but at least there's justifications; Bowser Jr. is the Koopa Clown Car in practice, not simply the Koopa himself. There's no reason to split them. Would it have been better to have Bowser Jr. with 8 alts? Sure. Alph's main issue is that the moveset is actually based upon Pikmin & Captain, so without new Pikmin at the time that could be easy to make unique, he wasn't in a good position. That, and Pikmin was dormant at the time. It's not making a moveset for one character, it's making one that balances among multiple characters as a group. It's also worth noting that they had lots of trouble with Pikmin working well too to the point that even Ultimate sticks with 3 Pikmin. It was probably getting ridiculous enough to program, so really couldn't make an easy one out of Alph at that point either. Not that he and the other Pikmin couldn't be a cool one(though if the Pikmin choices are really different, he might be a regular or semi-clone instead).

-------------

Also, what was said above. Except it's worth noting they do take balance time, against their counterpart. They're extremely easy to develop(though they still take more time than a costume. They aren't zero effort, after all).

...Incidentally some are literal clones like Dark Pit, how Ken was in gameplay from the start, and Dark Samus to a degree. Daisy too, having zero differences from Peach from the start. The spin-offs changed her up a lot. They're in every kind of fighting game. Echoes are just another type of clone(of the "glorified costume with minor changes") new to Smash. Also, I should note that we're not likely to ever drop Echoes and get more instead. They aren't just roster padding, they give people more characters they want to play as. Some don't want to use Peach but use Daisy. Some are more interested in Richter than Simon. Etc.

 

[Garteam]

12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

1. Bandana Dee
2. Skull Kid
3. Magolor
4. Pauline
5. Dixie Kong
6. Isaac
7. Gholdengo
8. Shadow*
9. Hayabusa
10. Octoling
11. Impa*
12. Jeanne*

1. Waluigi
2. Bandana Waddle Dee
3. Octoling
4. Ring Fit Adventurer
5. Shadow
6. X and Zero (transforming character)
7. Alucard
8. Geno
9. Crash

ECHOES
1. Dixie Kong
2. Big Boss
3. Jin Kazama

 

[chinkuru]

12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

1. Bandana Dee
2. Skull Kid
3. Magolor
4. Pauline
5. Dixie Kong
6. Isaac
7. Gholdengo
8. Shadow*
9. Hayabusa
10. Octoling
11. Impa*
12. Jeanne*

1. Isaac (fan favourite rep)
2. Takamaru (retro rep)
3. Tingle (joke character rep)
4. Toad
5. Ring Fit Trainee
6. Marco Rossi
7. Agumon
8. Ryu Hayabusa
9. Phoenix Wright
10. Tom Nook (echo)
11. Octoling (echo)
12. Dixie Kong (echo)

 

[NintenRob]

On this topic though, I actually think a Metroidvania style adventure would be really fun in Smash Bros

Think, World of Light meets The Great Maze (which I know most people don't like either lol)


You start off with a super basic character, probably a newcomer dedicated to the role who can't use projectiles or any elemental attacks. As you progress, you unlock characters who can do those stuff, like unlike Mario, suddenly you can burn a plant blocking your path. Unlock Kirby, now you can cross a wide gap. Unlock Pikachu, now you can open doors that need power.


A premise like that I feel would be a fantastic platforming adventure while adhering to Sakurai's dislike of cutscenes.

So I've finally figured out who the perfect starting character for my Metroidvania idea is!!


DONKEY KONG!!



For this idea, I needed someone who has no elemental attributes and no projectiles. The perfect candidate was right there!! His ability to carry throw could be used for some puzzles, but he's otherwise the perfect candidate. He's iconic, matches the requirements and is simple enough to play as.


Now we just need a story justification why he's the only starting character..... We know he's immune mind control?

 

[DarthEnderX]

5. Tetromino or ryu hayabusa or rayman

Make a decision! And pray you make the right one!!

Chrom, Lucina, and Ken play quite differently in practice. Dark Pit has a different Final Smash. Dark Samus and Richter have some elemental differences. Only Daisy is outright impossible to tell she has an actual hurtbox difference, which clearly is not enough.

Daisy and Dark Samus have no excuse for being as identical as they are. Because they are both Echoes of characters that had customizable movesets in Smash 4. All they would have had to do to change them some of those alternate moves.

 

[MasterCheef]

12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

1. Noah , & , Mio
2. Iron Valiant = pokemon
3. Officer Howard – Astral Chain
4. Impa*
5. Magolor
6. Tabuu
7. new , ( Tales of ) rep = Bandai Namco
8. ( Phantasy Star ) Rep = Sega
9. Resna ( Ryza & Marie = Alts ) , & , Izana = Atelier series

echoes

• Medusa
• Knuckles
• Dixie Kong

 

[Opossum]

Gonna be frank here, but I legitimately wonder if people who complain about cinematic Final Smashes replacing some of the older ones, and especially the ones calling them "overused," have played...basically any other fighting game.

Making flashy, cinematic finishers wasn't a downgrade: it was Smash finally getting with the program. It's a staple of the genre. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Marvel vs Capcom...hell, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2, even. Most fighting game supers (or the highest level of them in cases of games with a level system) are either cinematic, or they're install supers.

I don't see how, in any world, things like Diddy's borderline non-functional Rocketbarrel Barrage, the proven-to-be-impossible-to-balance manual Super Sonic, the old "turn into a slow, lumbering monster that can get camped" versions of Giga Mac and Giga Bowser, or "play a rhythm mini game perfectly to get one of the least powerful Final Smashes" are at all preferable.

Wario Man was the only transformation Final Smash worth a damn (because it was an install that Actually Worked and was Funny), but even then, Wario's new one isn't a downgrade.

 

[CannonStreak]

Gonna be frank here, but I legitimately wonder if people who complain about cinematic Final Smashes replacing some of the older ones, and especially the ones calling them "overused," have played...basically any other fighting game.

Making flashy, cinematic finishers wasn't a downgrade: it was Smash finally getting with the program. It's a staple of the genre. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Marvel vs Capcom...hell, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2, even. Most fighting game supers (or the highest level of them in cases of games with a level system) are either cinematic, or they're install supers.

I don't see how, in any world, things like Diddy's borderline non-functional Rocketbarrel Barrage, the proven-to-be-impossible-to-balance manual Super Sonic, the old "turn into a slow, lumbering monster that can get camped" versions of Giga Mac and Giga Bowser, or "play a rhythm mini game perfectly to get one of the least powerful Final Smashes" are at all preferable.

Wario Man was the only transformation Final Smash worth a damn (because it was an install that Actually Worked and was Funny), but even then, Wario's new one isn't a downgrade.

Well, I said that I did not mind cinematic Final Smashes, to start off.

That said, I have to say that up to before Smash Bros. Ultimate, I do think that Smash Bros., when it comes to Final Smashes, mostly functioned differently from other fighters, especially with the controlling characters and all. I'd even say that the non-cinematic Final Smashes were what made Smash Bros. unique at the time. In fact, the only cinematic Final Smash I recall from Brawl was Captain Falcon's Final Smash. I think people were complaining because Smash Bros. seemingly, and seemingly is the key word here, lost its uniqueness with Final Smashes with Smash Bros. Ultimate. Heck! Most of the fighting games you listed are not platform fighters, and even the one you listed, that Nickelodeon fighting game, is different from Smash, from developers who are not like the team behind Smash Bros., who basically might be more likely to use cinematic finishers, to being not based on video game characters; another thing that makes them different. Plus, Nickelodeon, not being a video game developer themselves, is more on the cinematic side of things anyway, so they'd be more prone to cinematic finishers if anything.

So yeah, I don't think those games are the best examples to use, and I think there is a uniqueness to controllable Final Smashes, not that I am personally complaining about them not being in Ultimate, to be clear again.

 

[Pupp135]

12 newcomers for base game. Let's predict stuff, and by predict, tell us your reasonable most wanted. Make 3 of them echoes

1. Bandana Dee
2. Skull Kid
3. Magolor
4. Pauline
5. Dixie Kong
6. Isaac
7. Gholdengo
8. Shadow*
9. Hayabusa
10. Octoling
11. Impa*
12. Jeanne*

1. Waluigi
2. Pauline
3. Veyle*
4. Bandana Waddle Dee
5. Meowscarada*
6. Noah/Mio*
7. Isaac
8. Chun-Li
9. Rayman
Echoes
1. Shadow
2. Alph
3. Octoling

I highlighted Isaac as he’s most wanted with any realistic chance of joining.

Veyle, Meoscarada, and Noah/Mio are just placeholders for the most recent games (ie. Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Xenoblade) respectively. I chose Veyle over Alear, assuming that engaging with multiple emblems might be too complex, because I think Veyle as a fighter would be more interesting than Alear engaging only with Marth’s emblem.

 

[Will]

I’d like Heihachi over Jin, but that’s because

1. He’s not coming back in Tekken because Kazuya killed him. His moveset lives through test tube baby Reina and Kuma’s heat mode, but the only way to truly play him again would be a third Tekken Tag Tournament… which could happen within the next few years since the other two were released a decade apart (TTT2 was released in 2012 I believe)

2. Jin sucks. I’m sorry. His character arc was cool, but him finding a way to live with the things he has done still makes him a terrible war criminal edgy baby. Just wait till Miguel gets in 2025. Or maybe they won’t ever bring him back to further push how “oh it’s all good now, millions are dead and WW3 is still going, but don’t worry, the guy who started it feels really bad about it!”

You shouldn’t take my opinions into account for real debate, but that’s the way it is for me.

 

[Garteam]

Gonna be frank here, but I legitimately wonder if people who complain about cinematic Final Smashes replacing some of the older ones, and especially the ones calling them "overused," have played...basically any other fighting game.

Making flashy, cinematic finishers wasn't a downgrade: it was Smash finally getting with the program. It's a staple of the genre. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Marvel vs Capcom...hell, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2, even. Most fighting game supers (or the highest level of them in cases of games with a level system) are either cinematic, or they're install supers.

I don't see how, in any world, things like Diddy's borderline non-functional Rocketbarrel Barrage, the proven-to-be-impossible-to-balance manual Super Sonic, the old "turn into a slow, lumbering monster that can get camped" versions of Giga Mac and Giga Bowser, or "play a rhythm mini game perfectly to get one of the least powerful Final Smashes" are at all preferable.

Wario Man was the only transformation Final Smash worth a damn (because it was an install that Actually Worked and was Funny), but even then, Wario's new one isn't a downgrade.

Putting aside that modern fighters have more diversity in their supers than just cinematics (which are already somewhat controversial due to reducing interactivity) and installs, the biggest issue with Final Smashes as they are now is that they're very unfocused in what they are supposed to be.

I can accept wanting to scale back Final Smashes to be more like how other fighters handle supers... but they're still not like that. Even with the decreased power of FS Meter Final Smashes, a lot of the cinematic Final Smashes are still very overpowered in a competitive setting. A sub-frame 10 move that kills anywhere on the stage starting at 30% is ridiculously powerful no matter which way you slice it. That's also not accounting for how the few Final Smashes that don't follow this formula ruin the possibility of Final Smashes ever being used competitively. Peach and Zelda would be absurdly good if Final Smashes were legal, while Mario and Jiggs would immediately be nerfed for lacking a tool that the rest of the cast has ala Melee Mr. Game & Watch.

At least with Brawl and Smash for's Final Smashes, they filled their function of being another chaotic add-on to gameplay that serves to equalize the competition between players of different skill levels. I do like the option of having FS meter, but it does send mixed signals about how seriously you're supposed to take this mechanic relative to tying Final Smashes exclusively to an item. I can accept Super Sonic being a lot better than Konga Beat when they're clearly there for the spectacle rather than being a consistent tool to be used in any context.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Gonna be frank here, but I legitimately wonder if people who complain about cinematic Final Smashes replacing some of the older ones, and especially the ones calling them "overused," have played...basically any other fighting game.

Making flashy, cinematic finishers wasn't a downgrade: it was Smash finally getting with the program. It's a staple of the genre. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Marvel vs Capcom...hell, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2, even. Most fighting game supers (or the highest level of them in cases of games with a level system) are either cinematic, or they're install supers.

That's the point, Smash isn't those games. It shouldn't have to "get with the program" because it isn't a traditional fighting game.

Ultimate's Final Smashes betray what made them special in the first place; they were wildly different in concept and execution from moves typically seen in traditional fighters. Now, they've devolved into something worse than that. Old Final Smashes actually used the spatial aspect of the platform fighting genre and they were lovingly crafted to fit most fighters. They're all the same now.

Yeah, not all of the old ones were good. Giga Mac in particular was hot garbage. But that doesn't take away from the fact that most of them were a spectacle to behold, from Yoshi turning into a dragon to Bowser becoming this massive controllable(!!!) monster. It's cool. Becoming temporarily giant monster with full access to an upgraded moveset to tear apart the Battlefield is cool. Zipping around and chasing down your foes as a lightning-fast Super Sonic to instill fear into your foes is cool.

I don't care if they aren't balanced because they're impossible to balance and there's no way they'd be used in competitive no matter how much Nintendo tries to push that FS meter, so they shouldn't bother. Like Garteam said, it's more of the spectacle that matters. And when everyone has the same super special move, nobody ends up special.

Except Piranha Plant who for some reason has one of the best Final Smashes in Ultimate (not like there's much competition). It's so weird that he's one of the few characters to not have a cutscene, but I'm not complaining. I'll take what I can get. Summoning a massive Petey Piranha to hop around the stage and command grab foes before slamming them down is flippin awesome, more of that please. I love the kind of collateral damage it can cause too, it's the perfect chaotic finisher in a game otherwise devoid of creativity for its finishers.

"A Unique secret technique" to every character. Capable of "even provid[ing] a chaotic finish that's sure to leave you laughing until you cry".
They were never intended to be traditional finishers and that's exactly why I loved them, you can't get anything like Negative Zone or Wario-Man in a traditional fighting game. Trying to make them fit the mold due the introduction of FS meter is akin to brute-forcing a round, Smash-Ball emblazoned peg into a square hole.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Why do some people think Jin should be a clone or echo when he doesn't even fight anybody else in his series?

 

[Will]

Yeah, not all of the old ones were good. Giga Mac in particular was hot garbage. But that doesn't take away from the fact that most of them were a spectacle to behold, from Yoshi turning into a dragon to Bowser becoming this massive controllable(!!!) monster. It's cool. Becoming temporarily giant monster with full access to an upgraded moveset to tear apart the Battlefield is cool.

And then I fly to the other side of Temple and start camping you (you will take 100% before you transform back, making your ultimate move and stock totally worthless)

 

[Garteam]

Why do some people think Jin should be a clone or echo when he doesn't even fight anybody else in his series?

Jin was a Kazuya clone in Tekken 3 and Tag Tournament. A lot of people (myself included) want a Ken situation where they base the character on an older, established entry in the interest of making them work as an echo fighter.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Ultimate Final smashes are weird because they have some slight differences, mostly the starting hitboxes and the max number of fighters they can catch, but past that, 75% of them are pretty much exactly the same.
At this point they should just make them universal. Maybe they could actually be somewhat balanced then.

But yeah the Brawl ones were more fun.

 

[Gorgonzales]

And then I fly to the other side of Temple and start camping you (you will take 100% before you transform back, making your ultimate move and stock totally worthless)

There will always be matchups that are unfavorable or don't work, not just for Final Smashes but for entire characters. That doesn't make me want the old Final Smashes back any less, because for every match where there's a camper on a huge stage willing to play lame, there will always be more matches where I get to wreck the other three (or in the best case scenarios, seven) players on the battlefield as a towering kaiju. It's a power fantasy that becomes an ultra-cathartic reality, and it's unlike anything else not just in Smash but in fighting games as a whole.

 

[Will]

There will always be matchups that are unfavorable or don't work, not just for Final Smashes but for entire characters. That doesn't make me want the old Final Smashes back any less, because for every match where there's a camper on a huge stage willing to play lame, there will always be more matches where I get to wreck the other three (or in the best case scenarios, seven) players on the battlefield as a towering kaiju. It's a power fantasy that becomes an ultra-cathartic reality, and it's unlike anything else not just in Smash but in fighting games as a whole.

I’m aware, I’m not being serious.

In 2009, that was me getting camped by that Pit on Temple. Do you remember pre-SSB4 Bowser? The fact I was even able to break the Smash Ball was more accomplishing than being Giga Bowser for 30 seconds.

 

[Noipoi]

As long as the DK bongos don’t come back.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Jin was a Kazuya clone in Tekken 3 and Tag Tournament. A lot of people (myself included) want a Ken situation where they base the character on an older, established entry in the interest of making them work as an echo fighter.

Those games were older games and made over 20 years ago. It doesn't represent the character anymore, nor does it make any sense now that Kazuya is around. Jin's current style is him now. He's been using that in all of his previous crossover appearances. There's no reason to go back to the old one.

It's not the same as Ken, who's always meant to fight like Ryu. Ken is a shoto and that's the point of his character. Mishima-style Karate is not Jin's character anymore.

 

[Garteam]

Those games were older games and made over 20 years ago. It doesn't represent the character anymore, nor does it make any sense now that Kazuya is around. Jin's current style is him now. He's been using that in all of his previous crossover appearances. There's no reason to go back to the old one.

It's not the same as Ken, who's always meant to fight like Ryu. Ken is a shoto and that's the point of his character. Mishima-style Karate is not Jin's character anymore.

Major Tekken 8 spoilers:
At the climax of the story, Jin purifies his devil gene and gains his Angel form, which is his Devil Jin moveset with a couple of additional, light-based attacks. He then loses this form... only to use Mishima-style karate against Kazuya anyway, regaining much of his Tekken 3 moveset. Kazuya even comments on this, with Jin replying that he's no longer averse to the martial art. Mishima-style Karate is the most relevant it has been to Jin in years.

 

[Geno Boost]

Make a decision! And pray you make the right one!!

basically i would label it as "character from a 3rd party company that has no playable character yet"

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Gonna be frank here, but I legitimately wonder if people who complain about cinematic Final Smashes replacing some of the older ones, and especially the ones calling them "overused," have played...basically any other fighting game.

Yeah, Smash isn't like any other fighting game. Heck, it's arguably if it even is at all. Even with the changes they are still unviable so why streamline them making them less unique.

Even then Final Smashes weren't to be like Fighting Game Supers but more a chaotic way for causally turn the tides in frantic battles.

Some of the changes were cool like Link, Dedede's, Wario's, Little Mac, Zelda, Bowser's but now too many characters like Meta Knight, Greninja, Sheik, Mii Brawler, DK, Chrom, Toon/Young etc all have functionally the same final smashes which is such bummer for character like Meta Knight. Meta Knightmare was a bad*** FS, now it's just whatever in Ult.

 

[Schnee117]

Sonic doing a Maximum Spider is vastly better than the uncontrollable mess with no impact he was in older games so no, the older style of Final Smashes are actually ****ing terrible. Functionality should come first and several of the old final smashes do not work in that regard, there's a damn good reason why they got changed and thank **** they were.

Heck, it's arguably if it even is at all.

Smash is objectively a fighting game. There is no argument to be had about this.

 

[Gorgonzales]

As long as the DK bongos don’t come back.

I'd love for DK's new Final Smash to be the Moon Punch from DKCR. where he leaps up and off screen to send the massive hunk of space rock crashing down into the stage.

I think his current Final Smash should be adapted into a regular move or special. Something like, if you use Giant Punch on an opponent who's shield has broken, you enter a state where you can mash the button to make DK pulverize them with a flurry of punches. The punch flurry has been one of my favorite parts of DK's moves in his games, I really wish it was implemented in a way that wasn't so lame. The fact that you don't mash the button in the current Final Smash to perform it misses the point. That, and it's stiffly animated compared to his home series. I'm glad it's there, but I want it to be better.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'd love for DK's new Final Smash to be the Moon Punch from DKCR. where he leaps up and off screen to send the massive hunk of space rock crashing down into the stage.

I think his current Final Smash should be adapted into a regular move or special. Something like, if you use Giant Punch on an opponent's shield that's broken, you can mash the button to make DK pulverize them with a flurry of punches. The punch flurry has been one of my favorite parts of DK's moves in his games, I really wish it was implemented in a way that wasn't so lame. The fact that you don't mash the button in the current Final Smash to perform it misses the point. That, and it's stiffly animated compared to his home series. I'm glad it's there, but I want it to be better.

Except I'm not going to punch the Earth, I'm going to go higher. I'm punching the moon!

If you get the reference, sorry, but I had to.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Major Tekken 8 spoilers:
At the climax of the story, Jin purifies his devil gene and gains his Angel form, which is his Devil Jin moveset with a couple of additional, light-based attacks. He then loses this form... only to use Mishima-style karate against Kazuya anyway, regaining much of his Tekken 3 moveset. Kazuya even comments on this, with Jin replying that he's no longer averse to the martial art. Mishima-style Karate is the most relevant it has been to Jin in years.

If it was used for only just that one part in the game, then it may not matter for his moveset in Smash, as it's never been his regular gameplay style. At best, his moveset could get a few attacks from it but not the whole Mishima moveset itself.

 

[Will]

If it was used for only just that one part in the game, then it may not matter for his moveset in Smash, as it's never been his regular gameplay style. At best, his moveset could get a few attacks from it but not the whole Mishima moveset itself.

And then Harada laughs and does it anyway, perfectly on-brand.

Honestly? It’s doable, imo. Kazuyas default is from Tekken 1, I wouldn’t be surprised if Jin was just his Tekken 3 incarnation by default.

 

[Louie G.]

Since we were talking newcomer predictions / wishes, I figured I'd compile a little mini-roster of where my mindset is for base game newcomers at the moment. Eventually I'll try to compile a first draft full roster but I think highlighting the new faces for now is a better idea since cuts are a whole other conversation.

Truth be told, there are still some kinks I'm working out here but I feel like this is relatively well rounded in terms of old and new, fan picks and surprises, new moveset opportunities and all that. I look at it and wish I had more surprises but I think some of these still rest outside the realm of immediate expectation.

Spoiler: First Party Reasoning

Waluigi (Super Mario) - Hard to ignore his sheer popularity at the moment, he's the one first party character really scaling up to major third party requests right now. Given that we always get a couple fan picks, and we always get a couple Mario characters, he's in a perfect spot. Not much else to say.

Skull Kid (Legend of Zelda) - Maybe the one here I'm the least sold on, but I think it's time to add someone new from Zelda and I think Skull Kid has a decent point to be made for himself so I opted for him. He's an assist trophy (and the Moon is too), he's got a really convincing Mii Costume, he can be upgraded into a four star spirit. I'm trying to keep an eye on stuff like that to determine who might have been given the most consideration outside of playability. If Sakurai were to look back into the well of previously neglected Zelda picks, I think Skull Kid is an immediate standout for their striking imagery and dark magic abilities. And Majora's Mask is always somewhat of a cult classic among fans.

Meowscarada (Pokemon) - So contrary to popular belief, I'm actually choosing Meowscarada because I find them to be the most compelling. This feels like it's become the default pick that everyone gravitates toward and will end up skipped over next game... that's probably what is going to happen, this is a bit of a placeholder. But I feel like we lack any true magician characters, someone with a lot of spectacle creating illusions and tricks, and I feel like Meowscarada is a good vessel to explore that type of character. A showman, I guess.

Lyn (Fire Emblem) - Part of me felt like skipping Fire Emblem altogether. Engage didn't make that much of a splash, and the immediate future is looking to be a remake. This could be the chance to give Fire Emblem a break, or it could be the chance to add a persisting legacy character that everyone loves. Lyn is still one of the most popular and widely marketed FE characters to date, and perhaps the major takeaway from Engage is to reassess FE's rich history. I'm a little shaky on this pick too but I think it makes sense. She's like the one FE character people have continued to ask for despite everything.

Tom Nook (Animal Crossing) - In my opinion, the single most likely character. Animal Crossing has grown exponentially, seen massive success in New Horizons that is impossible to ignore moving forward. Nook has been with the series since the beginning, and is pretty much the obvious next step with his prominence in mind as well as his heightened role in New Horizons after a slight dip in New Leaf. He's one of the most recognizable characters left to add and his inclusion would be one that excites people past the typical realm of Smash speculator and hardcore Nintendo fan.

Octoling (Splatoon) - I mean, of course it's gonna happen. In what role specifically, I'm not 100% sure. In this context I'm slotting them in as a clone, but not a full echo fighter. They share a lot with Inkling but may have slight stat differences and utilize a couple new weapons. Since they would probably be planned from the very beginning, it leaves the door open for more attention and variation than the more last minute clones of yesterday.

Off the Hook (Splatoon) - You can use this as a placeholder "additional Splatoon character" slot but I went with Off the Hook for now. And that's because I feel like the idol groups are the most popular characters in the series, and could offer a new spin on the team-up mechanics we've seen in the past. With Pyra and Mythra perfecting the swap / stance change mechanic set by Zelda / Sheik in Melee, perhaps it's time to revisit the Ice Climbers or some of the scrapped ideas from Diddy / Dixie. I envision them being more assist-oriented akin to Angry Beavers in NASB, you can swap who's taking the lead, while also attacking together for certain moves like the Ice Climbers. But you're very much in control of both of them, they function as a unit unlike Nana's CPU and will be sent flying together just as well. Without getting into too much detail on one specific fighter, I just find them compelling and think they'd bring a lot to the table. DJ Octavio is just as great a choice, but I could see Sakurai throwing him in the boss role instead. And Squid Sisters are equally valid here, I just think Pearl and Marina are more dynamic and have a greater contrast.

Isaac (Golden Sun) - With not many new Nintendo IPs to speak of between games, this might be Isaac's time. Golden Sun has always been somewhat of a preference among fans when it comes to these neglected and skipped over IPs, and Isaac's popularity has lingered for all that time. After his absence in Smash Ultimate, Isaac came back with a freshened up AT, a Mii Costume, a bunch of spirits for his series. I feel like out of any nonplayable character in the game, Isaac was treated with a particular reverence and probably would have made it if we had a few extra slots to spare. So as long as his popularity hasn't dipped too much since then, I see this being Isaac's best opportunity to move up to a playable role. The rerelease of the first two Golden Suns on NSO probably helps too, puts it back in the public eye and allows new people to play the games.

Ring Fit Trainee (Ring Fit Adventure) - Something Ring Fit is kind of obligatory, given its massive success and being practically the only notable Nintendo IP that came out in the interim between Ultimate and this upcoming new game. I've always favored Dragaux a bit, but I've been sitting on the Trainee themselves and their fiery hair, momentum based mechanics and oddball RPG magic would make them a compelling character in their own right.

Excitebiker (Excitebike) - Been trying to determine the surprise / retro pick that makes the most sense, and the answer was right in front of me the whole time. I've always been more of a Mach Rider guy, but Excitebike is a game that is always relevant to Nintendo. They love referencing it, they hold it in very high regard. Sakurai considered this character as far back as Melee and I think we're at the point now where a character perpetually mounter on a motorcycle is not nearly the weirdest or most complicated thing a character can do on this roster. So I'd love for him to revisit this idea and create a wacky mounted fighter while paying homage to one of Nintendo's most persisting classics in the process. Strikes me as very similar to Duck Hunt's situation.

Spoiler: Third Party Reasoning

Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog) - Fans have wanted more Sonic since his debut in Brawl, and I think now's the time. The series has seen a major surge in popularity and prominence lately, due to a heightened effort to expand the brand into multimedia ventures and additional crossovers. I think we're at the point where Sonic no longer needs to be bound by whatever weird stuff was going on in the previous Smash games, barring legal issues. There are four equally valid choices to follow up Sonic himself, but I choose Knuckles because I think he lies in a comfortable middleground. He's more exciting than Tails for most people, he's more evergreen and has been with the series longer than Shadow. He's an easier effort than Eggman, and he's got several X-factors in his glide, burrowing and climbing up walls. His rivalry with Sonic makes for a strong dynamic, he just had a major movie feature and is getting his own Paramount Plus series... and to top it all off, he was deliberately added as an AT in Ultimate, which reads to me as a consolation not unlike Isaac or Krystal. So I think he's got a lot of good going on in his camp, although depending on the month you might ask me and I might say Tails instead.

Chun-Li (Street Fighter) - Maybe the most important character absent from the roster. Capcom is always playing ball and typically, wherever Ryu goes Chun-Li eventually follows. I've just got a really good feeling about this. If there's an effort made to expand on mainstay third party series, Chun-Li is such an obvious pick and an easy slam dunk with massive crossover appeal.

Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden) - Another pretty obvious one, sorry that I'm not very creative. But Koei Tecmo is still the most glaring absence from the playable third party lineup and Hayabusa strikes me as being a very similar add to Mega Man or Simon. And he's not so insane where I feel like Ninja Gaiden demands some wild DLC gimmick or showiness, I think he easily gets away with being a safe base roster third party legacy pick. Still feels to me like a matter of when and how, not if.

Sans (Undertale) - Look, you guys all saw the reaction to that Mii Costume and I can tell you that Sakurai did too. He already said Sans is very popular, and Undertale's popularity has only continued to thrive over four years later. Back then you could have probably still passed it off as a big indie trend, but Undertale is turning 10 years old next year and it is still a phenomenon. I'm confident that it will see an uptick in content next game in some capacity, and I put Sans on base roster as more of a "holy ****" third party reveal mixed with his status as an independently owned indie character making him a lot more straightforward to negotiate, and likely much cheaper. Toby Fox has a good working relationship with Nintendo and, apparently, Sakurai himself. So I'll throw my hat in the ring for this easily, we could always use more modern third party picks as well and Sans is hilariously one of the most iconic video game characters of the last decade.

Spoiler: Honorable Mentions

Arle, Monster Hunter / Resident Evil - I want to include new Sega and Capcom series, but I feel like if they negotiate DLC early then they can save the expansive new IPs for DLC and then add characters from their already represented series in as cheaper and easier base game newcomers.

Oatchi - I honestly want to add him, but I'm still working out a concept that differentiates his mechanics enough from Olimar. So just wait til I get around to playing Pikmin 4, I think.

DJ Octavio - Went with Off the Hook simply because I think he can still be represented well as a boss and that might be what they opt for instead. I love the idea a lot. Regardless of who it is I think the next unique Splatoon newcomer has got to be a musical fighter. Honestly, I think having a superheavy like him would add some needed weight class variety to the roster, or Dragaux for that matter, so you can swap them in as you see fit.

Noah / Mio - I'm admittedly not convinced, but I also wouldn't be that surprised. I think people put a bit too much stock in Xenoblade following in Pokemon and Fire Emblem's footsteps though.

Another Mario Character - We usually get two of these guys, or at least Mario tangential. I'm just not sure who else I would slot in, I'm not too confident in anyone else right now.

 

[7NATOR]

Smash 6 (Part 1?) Development Cycle Theory

Spoiler: Sources and links used for Theory

Bandai Namco Studios is seriously producing an in-house game engine that can "create an open world" and is looking for developers. We asked about the development process and the human resources we are looking for - AUTOMATON (automaton-media.com)

Spoiler: Sources and links used for Theory

Organization / Technology Studio | Bandai Namco Studios Official Website

Studio 2/Studio S | Bandai Namco Studios

Nintendo First Party Software Development |ST| Nintendo Party Superstars | Page 145 | Famiboards

https://www.gameinformer.com/2020/12/31/bandai-namco-is-making-its-most-expensive-game-to-date

https://www.gematsu.com/2020/12/kat...n-most-costly-project-in-bandai-namco-history

https://gamestalk.net/post-154642/


https://gamestalk-net.translate.goog/post-154642/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

https://youtu.be/6oofzgLfSgM?t=8820

(2:27:00 - 2:30:00)

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeak...intendo_is_sending_out_switch_2_devs_kits_to/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-DnOIeasA (Video published August 2022)

List of staff (SSBU) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

https://www.mobygames.com/person/181880/katsumasa-horiuchi/

https://theorg.com/org/rakuten-international/org-chart/katsumasa-horiuchi

https://bandainamcostudios-snar-jp....ONa_hOA&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

https://bandainamcostudios-snar-jp....PuO7Dog&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en


https://www-bandainamcostudios-com..../entry/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en



https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...bros-6-launching-in-2015-namco-hiring.797720/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katsuhiro_Harada

https://www.ign.com/articles/tekken-8-interview-katsuhiro-harada

I think the Development Cycle of Smash 6 has been like this so far.

2019-2021

-Somewhere between 2018-2019 is where I think the idea of the Next Smash game is being planned, at least on Nintendo’s End. After Smash Ultimate became the Fastest Selling Switch game (well at least at the time), preparations were definitely in order.


-Katsusuke Horiuchi, one of the Lead programmers on Smash Ultimate, begins work on the New engine, the one that what will be used for the next Smash game, in 2018 after Ultimate is released, with Development really starting in 2019

-In the meantime, DLC is being Developed for Smash Ultimate by Sakurai and Smaller version of the Base Development team of Ultimate. This will continue from 2018-2021

-Harada is Promoted to General Manager of Bandai Namco in 2019

-Sometime in 2020, Harada is given a Task to work on what Might be the most expensive game developed by Bandai Namco Entertainment. I believe this game is the Next Smash. I think it also involves the new engine being worked on

-Because of Covid, Harada and his Team can’t start on this project like they want to in 2020. Progress might be made but it’s probably not much

-The Engine being developed Katsusuke Horiuchi, along with Mr. Minami, Stop Development, Strengthened Development foundation, and restart Development in 2020. This actually could coincide with Harada being asked to work on this expensive project, being this new engine for the next Smash

-For 2021, Development of DLC of Smash Ultimate, and Smash Ultimate as a whole, concludes with Sora’s Release. The Smash Ultimate Team, Including Sakurai, Disband.

-While I think some of the Namco Employees are put in and/or back in positions to work on Namco’s other games, like Tekken 8 for example, I think some might be asked to help development of this engine

-For 2021-2022, I think Harada is actually the starting Director for the Next Smash game, while Sakurai is working on Smash Ultimate. However I don’t think Harada is directing the Smash Bros Elements. More-so he’s directing around the New engine that will be used in the next Smash game, making sure certain features are included in the engine that will make this Next
Smash state of the art.

2022

-2022 is where Development of the Next Smash game might likely Ramp up.

-in Early 2022, The new engine is said to need about another year before it’s ready for Game Development.

-Circulation of information on next Nintendo Console, or the Switch 2, ramps up this year. Sometime in midyear, There’s Prototypes and/or Devkits of the new console that’s ready to be used by Developers

-In August of 2022, Sakurai starts his Youtube Channel on Creating Games.

-I think around this year is when the Project Plan for the Next Smash game is being worked on, and possibly Completed, especially when Sakurai has access to the Switch 2.

-I also think this is the year Sakurai comes back on Smash Development as a Director. The videos being made might be with the same people that do Sakurai directs, which means I think some of the team is starting to form together again around this time, or already formed and working on the next Smash


-2022 is also when the Switch 2 can be in mind for how well the Engine works with the new system.



2023

-If the Project Plan wasn’t finished in 2022, it definitely was finished somewhere around 2023

-We know about the Bandai Namco Job Listings for Studio 2/S. However the work doesn’t start when the listings come out, as there already is development going on beforehand

-The Engine should be fully ready by now

-I think the focus of 2023 is getting started on the Actual Smash game portion of it. There may have already been prototypes perhaps using some of Ultimate’s assets to test how well the engine works, but this year is when the game portion of it can be the focus for Development



2024

-Sakurai is set to Stop his Youtube Channel sometime this year

-Smash Ultimate has gotten new Spirit events in the game after going Going about 2 Years and then some without Spirits. The Last Spirit added was Evil Ryu in January of 2022

-The Next Nintendo Console, the Switch 2, is most likely set to be released this year.

-2024 is the 25th anniversary of Smash Bros

-I think 2024 is where we See the first look at the New Smash, as Development is right now as we speak On Full speed


2025-2026

Somewhere around this time is when we see the Release of the game.




The Big Potential Holes in this theory, and other Facts and Factors

-The biggest hole in my Opinion is that in the articles that detail Harada working on Bandai Namco’s Most Expensive game, they outright say that the game he’s working on is not a Fighting game.

And Honestly, it is a pretty big hole in this theory. However the one thing I could say is depending on the actual wording, he might not be deconfirming that the game he’s working on is another Fighting game like Smash. It could be a deflection and perhaps a reflection of his thoughts when he was approached with the offer to work on this project. Here’s the video (And the actual source) which contains the information

https://youtu.be/6oofzgLfSgM?t=8820

2:27:00 - 2:30:00

Now I can’t speak Japanese so I used the Youtube English auto translate. From my end, it could read that he’s saying he does alot of other things, and that Tekken is enough and that it’s like his pet. He won’t say anything, but he expects alot of Fighting game guess in the comments (Cause they were responding to chat)


This might be taken to mean that he’s deconfirming the idea of a Fighting game being what he is working on, but from my ends, the Fighting game mentions is in the context that

-He’s mainly only worked on Tekken when it comes to Directing positions, which is true. Bar Soul Calibur 4 where he was a Co-Director, all other games he’s Directed has been Tekken games. His last game Directed was Tekken 7

-He expects alot of guesses for Fighting game works.


If someone does know Japanesse, it would be a great help to Translate the Transcript


There’s also the fact that Harada has said that Sakurai is likely the only one that could make a Game like Smash

https://www.ign.com/articles/harada-praises-sakurai-smash-bros-tekken

Which is why I think if Harada is Directing any part of this New Smash game, it is not from the standpoint of how to represent the characters and I.Ps and such like that, but from the more technical elements, especially in regards to the engine. One example could be Rollback

-On Tekken 8, This Tekken game shares the distinction with Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 in being games where he’s an Executive Producer instead of a Director (Not counting Tekken 1 or 2 since he got Started Directing with Tekken 3)

With Tekken 6, he was Co-Directing Soul Calibur 4, and with Tekken Tag Tournament 2, he was Co-Directing Street Fighter X Tekken.

-Katsuke Horiuchi, One of the 2 guys that were interview about the New Engine being used, might be using an Alias, at least in regards to the Credits of Smash Ultimate. In the credits, there’s listed a person with a Similar name in “Katsumasa Horiuchi”

I looked up the Katsumasa name and there was a picture of him. Comparing the Image in that profile listing and the picture of Katsuke in the Article about the new engine, there could be a Match. I only bring this up in the case people look up the name from the article and are confused when they can’t find him

-On Studio 2. It seems they are the ones doing a 3D Game of sorts, said to be some sort of Remake. If you go to the hiring page for Studio 2 and Studio S, you'll see that for Studio 2, they aren't hiring anymore, and that in the "Desirable Experience and Abilities" Category, they list experience in Unreal or Unity, implying that they are using one of those 2 engines for this 3D Game

For the Job Applications for Studio S and the 2D Action game, there's no such thing, that and also they are still hiring.



I might do a Part 2, Adding more info, Tidying up the format, and then some. Also in the case we get the New console reveal soon, that will be big factor. this was alot to write. I hope this fuels speculation about the Next Smash game

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I will never understand why people go for Knuckles first when it comes to new Sonic characters.

Tails would add the main sidekick and second most prominent hero in the franchise.
Shadow would add the most popular non Sonic character and the main rival.
Eggman would add the main villain and the second most prominent character after Sonic.

Knuckles adds none of that. I feel like personal bias guides most Knuckles predictions.

 

[CannonStreak]

I will never understand why people go for Knuckles first when it comes to new Sonic characters.

Tails would add the main sidekick and second most prominent hero in the franchise.
Shadow would add the most popular non Sonic character and the main rival.
Eggman would add the main villain and the second most prominent character after Sonic.

Knuckles adds none of that. I feel like personal bias guides most Knuckles predictions.

Well, unlike Sonic, he doesn't chuckle, so there is at least that.

Seriously, though, Knuckles would not be a bad addition to a Smash Bros. game. He is one of the main characters after all, and he is one of the original rivals to Sonic.

 

[Schnee117]

If you're adding a Sonic character it's absolutely gonna be Shadow at this point and as a bonus, he won't be an echo fighter. He's genuinely too popular to just be an echo.