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[Veril]

One thing that could certainly improve are the throws. Having delved into them to an extent nobody else has, there are a lot of relatively minor changes that could polish them (some need more substantive fixes of course). For example, pushing back some of the FAFs on moves that create "sloppy combos" ie, absurdly massive combo windows (anything above 30 frames of advantage initially is pretty absurd). It would make it somewhat easier to read DI, which would help offset the smaller window for comboing. Some characters have throw combos in 5.0 that are very limited, and reducing the hitstun levels even slightly will make them nearly completely unusable. Throws that have a negative advantage should obviously be improved (b-throws are most often like this).

Unlike 99% of changes made, I have the hard data to support these. This makes it really really important that I know whether we are going to reduce hitstun so I know how precisely to make my changes.

 

[The Cape]

Been looking at that exact thing, looked into throws and tried to tighten the timing on alot of the combos for them, its in a more updated build than the one I have posted, but I would love to have you look at these updated ones and give me your opinions on them. I cant hard data test, but in battle test.

 

[VietGeek]

Cape, for your set's changelist, two things in particular intrigue me:

Snake
- U tilt was shrank to 6 units from 12 (initial hit still has insane range, but later hits are shorter range)

Wolf
- Bair hitbox has closer X offset; 9 dmg with compensated KB; and vBrawl ALR

1. You meant knockback and not range right? o_o

2. Are you sure KB was compensated? Wolf's bair is very weak now and seems to always set up for more bairs (good or bad thing depends on perspective and situation).

It looks a lot like the weak hitboxes are interfering since you moved the strong bair hitbox supposedly inward. I haven't checked the .pac but I assume this because "both" hitboxes seem to have around the same KB and hitlag.

You probably fixed the Wolf thing from when you posted as JCaesar plays Wolf, idk. Just saying what I observe.

 

[The Cape]

I actually hadn't. I will definetly look into that right now though. Thanks.

 

[VietGeek]

It seems the hitbox wasn't moved in at all. Instead all hitboxes had their damage reduced by 4, then hitbox A-C has 5 KBG added to the orig. 60 KBG.

According to Leaf's lazyman's compensation technique, compensation should come out something like this (most KBG values were rounded down):

Hitbox A: [1x Size; 13->9 Dmg; 60->138 KBG; 20->24 BKB; (40)°]
Hitbox B: [1x Size; 11->7 Dmg; 60->150 KBG; 20->24 BKB; (40)°]
Hitbox C: [1x Size; 10->6 Dmg; 60->160 KBG; 20->24 BKB; (40)°]
Hitbox D: [1x Size; 9->5 Dmg; 64 KBG; 0 BKB; (40)°]

 

[The Cape]

Talked to Shanus about releasing this as a nightly and he seems to be ok with it. Have a few more minor things to add + some bug fixes and I think it could be ready for a release.

The people who got to play it at BtL2 seemed to like it a good deal (including Yes and Vex) and I think its at least a good way to go for a nightly. The community seems really excited about it and we should at least let people try it out.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm pretty much in agreement with this being a nightly. Some people who have been disappointed with RC1 seem to be very eager toward trying out "Cape's set" too.

By all means go for it.

 

[Isatis]

By all means I'll even make an installer for Cape's set if you guys decide to release it as a nightly.

 

[JCaesar]

Yes, nightly please!

I'm so tired of RC1...

 

[The Cape]

Yes, nightly please!

I'm so tired of RC1...

Even though we made BANK off that ****.

 

[Team Giza]

I definitely don't mind having Cape's set as a nightly. I think it is time we get some testing on some unique changes. See how they work and don't work and then decide later whether or not some of these aspects should be part of an official release. But there seems to be problem with some of the people outside the backroom, and maybe inside too, taking Nightlies a bit too seriously. I don't know how to deal with that problem...

 

[g-regulate]

why dont we just change him back to normal?

was he REALLY that bad to begin with? absolutely not.

 

[CT Chia]

what do you mean release it as a nightly?

i just think its way too much of a change to do all at once. im starting to hear some good responses about it which puts me at ease, but do changes from it little by little in releases so we can get some actual data on it.

also, please dont start nightly updates. god no. it was the reason a lot of people quit brawl+. ninjalink and bum to name a couple top names. people hated it when the game changed so often all the time.

imo...

keep the brawl+ updater distributing out 5.0

have a download page for a test set that we say we are working on for the next main release. this should under no circumstances be used for tourneys atm. add a couple changes in from cape's set at a time, and give new updates one per week. open a new sticky thread (or not sticky if u want) in the workshop explaining the project and so it can be a place ppl can give their criticisms on the changes. by doing only a few changes at a time with a minimum of a week apart, then we can determine the effects on the game from each change.

doing things nightly will get things too out of hand, the changes and results from won't be documented well, and we wont be working how we should be. this needs to be more team oriented here. the fact that this "cape's set" wasn't even brought to the wbr until after it was made ready to be put out with so many changes really bothers me.

 

[Isatis]

Sunday, November 15th: Post balance change suggestions in this thread. Don't go posting a list of changes with no support. Our last set we had too many hands in the pie and a lot of poor communication with people not knowing what was going in for what reason. Every change proposed should be debated, acknowledged, etc. This is designed to work like Neko's queue system for each character where every change must be discussed to be incorporated.

Glad to see we're working on this? /sarcasm

 

[CT Chia]

the good ideas went away when cape decided to post a new set with 8 months worth of changes

 

[g-regulate]

I vote to change ness back to NORMAL.

NO fair adjustments
NO downB adjustments
NO DJC

tournament results AND various frame data has proven that ness combos are retardedly easier to do than anyone else in the cast, SPECIFICALLY because of these changes. meanwhile, theres no proof that his "normal" set handicaps him whatsoever.

 

[Veril]

some changes we could actually vote on

I vote to change ness back to NORMAL.

NO fair adjustments
NO downB adjustments
NO DJC

Voting...

1. Remove Ness fair changes.
-Gregulate: Yes
-Veril: Yes
-anyone sane?: Yes

2. Remove Ness down-b changes.
-G-regulate: Yes
-Veril: Yes

3. Remove Ness DJC:
Gregulate: Yes
Veril: No

4. Change hitstun modifier from .4865 to .44:
Cape: Yes
Veril: Undecided

5. Allow limited move decay:
Cape: Yes

6. Increase landing lag on squirtles fair (to reduce its ******** advantage on block).
Veril: Yes

7. Remove Wolf nair changes:
Veril: Yes

8. tbc when I finish my chem hw

 

[goodoldganon]

Voting...

1. Remove Ness fair changes.
-Gregulate: Yes
-Veril: Yes
-anyone sane?: Yes

2. Remove Ness down-b changes.
-G-regulate: Yes
-Veril: Yes

3. Remove Ness DJC:
Gregulate: Yes
Veril: No

4. Change hitstun modifier from .4865 to .44:
Cape: Yes
Veril: Undecided

5. Allow limited move decay:
Cape: Yes

6. Increase landing lag on squirtles fair (to reduce its ******** advantage on block).
Veril: Yes

7. Remove Wolf nair changes:
Veril: Yes

8. tbc when I finish my chem hw

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No. It's fun and adds a lot of depth. It's the other two changes we made that made Ness too good, DJC just threw him into the WTF category. Remove the other two and DJC is fine.
4. If combined with NADT (or the hybrid one I desperately want)

5. No. All it does is randomly make you go' Oh I should have died from that. Cool beans!' It's also unneccessary punishment to the heavies. For example Ganondorf and Ike will approach with F-airs but they are also solid 'go-to' killers. No one thinks Ike or Dorf is too good. It doesn't add any strategy to the combo system and it makes getting kills with some characters annoying. Of everything in that set, damage stalling is the 1 thing I despise.

6. Yes
7. What exactly is too good about Wolf's n-air now? What did I miss?

I'll edit mine if you add more questions.

 

[CT Chia]

1. yes
2. o god yes
3. undecided. if its removed for ness than it should be removed for everyone.
while it does open up some deeper gameplay for them, it was a thing that was just added cause it was in melee. if it was in melee we woulda never thought to put it in. when thinking about it though, it makes no sense at all that a character can just completely halt their double jump. im almost leaning towards remove it from all characters for the sheer fact that it doesnt make sense.
4. whats so bad about the hitstun now. if its not broke dont fix it.
5. no decay
6. why? this is also the first time iv seen this mentioned. is it because mexi won btl again? lol. plenty of characters have fair options like that on shield, such as marth or wario. squirtles not OP imo, so dont touch him
7. yes

 

[leafgreen386]

1. Remove Ness fair changes.
- yes

2. Remove Ness down-b changes.
- fine, but it's his upB that's the real problem (although we were nerfing that anyway)

3. Remove Ness DJC:
- no

4. Change hitstun modifier from .4865 to .44:
- try it

5. Allow limited move decay:
- I still don't like the idea. If we could hijack the kb formula to read directly from the pac data, it'd be fine, but since we have yet to do so, it just doesn't seem very wise to include it at this point.

6. Increase landing lag on squirtles fair (to reduce its ******** advantage on block).
- How big is the advantage? I could see this being reasonable.

7. Remove Wolf nair changes:
- I'd like to try making a different version of his nair from scratch rather than revert it to normal. Since "normal" is... useless.

 

[VietGeek]

Doesn't Squirtle's fair have a finale hitbox that is kinda like a sex kick? I remember dying from a delayed fair...once long ago.

Oh and Leaf, try Cape's set; a lingering sonic-esque nair is surprisingly good.

 

[Veril]

Voting updated...

1. Remove Ness fair changes.
-Gregulate: Yes
-Veril: Yes
-GoG: Yes
-Chibo: Yes
-Leaf: Yes

2. Remove Ness down-b changes.
-G-regulate: Yes
-Veril: Yes
-GoG: Yes
-Chibo: Yes
-Leaf: Yes

3. Remove Ness DJC:
-Gregulate: Yes
-Veril: No
-GoG: No
-Chibo: undecided
-Leaf: No

4. Change hitstun modifier from .4865 to .44:
Cape: Yes
Veril: Undecided
GoG: Yes conditional upon NADT
Leaf: Yes conditional upon NADT
Chibo: No

5. Allow limited move decay:
Cape: Yes
Veril: No
GoG: No
Chibo: No
Leaf: No

6. Increase landing lag on squirtles fair (to reduce its ******** advantage on block).
Veril: Yes
GoG: Yes
Chibo: No
Leaf: undecided

7. Remove Wolf nair changes:
Veril: Yes
Chibo: Yes
GoG: undecided
Leaf: Redo Nair changes

8. Ness Up-b winddown speedup reduced to 125% from ~bazillion%
Everyone should say: Yes

9. Machine Gun Jabs removed:
Veril: Yes
Cape: Yes
Leaf: Yes

 

[leafgreen386]

On #4, when I say "worth a try," I mean it's worth trying it in a set. So yes. Although I guess more accurately, put me down for what you have gog as.

And I didn't say "undecided" to removing DJC. I said a flat out no.

On #9, yes.

---

Anyway, after playing with cape's set some, I can say that my initial impressions from reading the changelog were... well, very accurate. I was unsure on a bunch of things, because I didn't know the extent to which they were changed, but most of them seemed to check out as being pretty good changes. However, the big ones that I knew I would hate... well, I still hate.

First off, global stuff:
- brawl staling sucks; stale damage>no staling>>>>any form of brawl staling

Second off, wolf:
- fair should be reverted in its entirety to rc1
- shine is kinda worthless when it's just got SA instead of invinc... if you're removing invinc I'd like to see something else done to it, because I had already moved the starting frame of invinc back
- don't really like the new nair, so I'm gonna try to build one from scratch that isn't broken this time

Third off, marth:
- add back the dsmash change in rc1
- put in a toned down version of the rc1 upB, since yes, it was a little ridiculous before, but vbrawl upB is dumb

Fourth off, lucario:
- uthrow was fine before, so just leave it alone

Fifth off, fox:
- rc1 nair please and thank you
- vbrawl shine is too strong kb-wise... it just forces a tech on a bunch of chars at 0

 

[Veril]

Leaf, we are voting on and discussing modifications to RCI, not to Cape's set...

 

[leafgreen386]

Veril: I know. I just figured I'd put down my thoughts on cape's set now that I've tried it >_>

 

[CT Chia]

auto jabs shouldnt be taken out imo
it made some weird problems back when we used the code and with it in place now u can still do things like gentlemens combo with falcon, it just takes skill and timing

o sry, i said the word skill. pretend i didnt.

 

[GHNeko]

Are you talking about auto jabbing or machine gunning. Because there seems to be a lot of people mixing them up.

 

[leafgreen386]

Chibo: Auto-jabs are when you hold down A and it continues doing the jab combo. Machine gun jabs are when you hold down and it repeats the first jab over and over again until you hit someone. We only want to get rid of the machine gun jabs.

 

[GHNeko]

Get rid of auto jabbing. Idc about machine gunning.

But Auto jabs need to go. Because that **** is dumb.

 

[leafgreen386]

...what? Machine gun jabs are horribly stupid. How can you not care about them and then say that auto-jabs are dumb?

 

[GHNeko]

because i've never been affected by them nor do I use them so i consider my input on them invalid. I time my jabs as best as possible and no one who plays B+ in texas abuses machine gunning, except maybe sethlon, but then again, he times his jabs more often than he machine guns.

 

[Yeroc]

I'll just stop in to say that I think Cape and I went a little too far on hitstun, certain throws, or both, in his latest set. I played for about 8 hours today with 3 of the better people in NC, and .44 hitstun combined with some of the current throw kb settings literally killed all possible throw combo options for some people like Falcon and Sonic at nearly all %'s. Yeah, Falcon was probably a little too good before, but that's just overkill imo.

 

[GHNeko]

....whatever happened to character specific hitstun?

 

[leafgreen386]

....whatever happened to character specific hitstun?

Yeah... screw that. The flaws with that should be painfully obvious.

 

[GHNeko]

Must of missed it then.

 

[shanus]

I'll just stop in to say that I think Cape and I went a little too far on hitstun, certain throws, or both, in his latest set. I played for about 8 hours today with 3 of the better people in NC, and .44 hitstun combined with some of the current throw kb settings literally killed all possible throw combo options for some people like Falcon and Sonic at nearly all %'s. Yeah, Falcon was probably a little too good before, but that's just overkill imo.

This has been what I've been saying.


.44 hitstun in the melee 2.0 set is the goal because we were altering the character physics, but even comboing with RC1 Ness Fair was significantly harder, and thats saying something.

Edit: Fox seems a little overnerfed to the point of somewhat completely silly changes. For example, with removal of JC shine upsmash, downthrow upsmash, and the former beloved nair upsmash, upsmash nerf on aerial opponents is entirely unjustified (let us not forget the lower hitstun, too). Additionally, fair is in no way an awesome damage builder, I fail to see why the first three hits require a damage reduction. Removal of hitstun alone fixes fox in so many ways, as dair to anything (even shine becomes very hard to register at .44 hitstun, not positive on .46) becomes pretty much obselete, this is just overkill.

I'll need to play more to comment on the nair, but just my 2 cents on him.


Regarding Ness, I would prefer to remove the super armor on downB until all the bugs on it are removed. I also think moving PKT1 to 150% instead of 125% would be a more appropriate frame speed. Off the top of my head, I believe that results in 36 frames of endlag instead of 44.


Link: Fair change is pretty stupid. It seems like every link main hates it, too. It should restored to its former state.


Also, I hear Mushroomy Kingdom still kills people at the start? This should *Not* be included in any release set because of simply how unrefined it is.

 

[CT Chia]

Why fix whats not broken?

What harm is machine gun jabs really doing to the game?

What harm is the 5.0 RC1 hitstun value doing to the game?

These are all things that have been in for such a long time that why change them now? If you guys keep changing your minds about things the project will never be completed.

 

[leafgreen386]

Why fix whats not broken?

What harm is machine gun jabs really doing to the game?

What harm is the 5.0 RC1 hitstun value doing to the game?

These are all things that have been in for such a long time that why change them now? If you guys keep changing your minds about things the project will never be completed.

We "changed out minds" a while ago. It's just now we're actually doing something about it.

 

[JCaesar]

Chibo why are you always soooo far behind?

 

[Veril]

We should not change hitstun. The combos that are the most bogus stem from d-throws and up-tilts, all of which can be fixed without changing the modifier. its worth noting that Cape's set ALSO tweeks most of these d-throws as well as changing hitstun.

G-regulate and I talked about this a lot at BtL2. We both came to the same conclusion that "cookie cutter combos" were both less common, less of a problem, and far more escapable than most people seem to think. The exceptions are being used to prove the norm here. I (and I'm not a pro by any means) was able to escape Yes!'s fox combos specifically when they were "cookie cutters" cause I knew how to. When those combos were long, elaborate and flashy (you know, a major reason B+ appeals to me), that's when they worked. Predictable combos are only an issue if they don't allow for SDI.

Think about it, nearly every real problem combo results from the inability to DI/SDI. D-throw combos, Ness's fair, up-tilts with so little kb you can't escape regardless of what you do, etc. These are all things that need to be fixed, lowering both hitstun and making these changes (like Cape's set does) obscures the issue.

I have played Cape's set, and I think that its better than 5.0 in a lot of ways. Hitstun lowered is not one of the reasons for this, its the character specific modifications that were made in addition to the hitstun change that lead to this improvement.

G-reg, back me up. I saved a match of my Jiggs vs. your Falcon where I was trying to win without using rest at all. While I didn't, it was really close, and part of that was cause I SDI'd well, especially the nair. If there's any 2 things my opinion should count on, they are throws and ability to escape combos (DI/SDI). A lot of people saw that despite my limited tourney experience, I have really good DI, Yes! knows...



EDIT Cape changed hitstun from .44 to .46. This might work better in which case I would support it. .44 is too low.