Next Set Goals & Timelines (Sign up for characters, now!)

[g-regulate]

thanks for using my name several times

1. Remove Ness fair changes. YES!


2. Remove Ness down-b changes. YES!


3. Remove Ness DJC: YES! (There's NO NEED for it, other than "it's cool". It's just another way to change a character that doesn't need changing.)


4. Change hitstun modifier from .4865 to .44: NO!!!! Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm ignorant, but this means universal hitstun change for everyone's everything right? I am SO opposed to this, that completely messed up EVERYONES COMBOS! People shouldn't have to learn a new game every version that comes out.


5. Allow limited move decay: NO! This means that everyone's moves end faster right? Again, completely changes the dynamics to everyones combos.


6. Increase landing lag on squirtles fair (to reduce its ******** advantage on block). NO! I don't feel anyone is too good to be changed, with the exception of ness.


7. Remove Wolf nair changes: NO (Again, i see no problem with Wolf)


8. Ness Up-b winddown speedup reduced to 125% from ~bazillion%: YES (Dunno why his upB stuff was changed, he's almost a completely different character now)


9. Machine Gun Jabs removed: NO! (It's a non-broken part of brawl, so i don't know what needs to be fixed about it.

 

[CT Chia]

greg with the authority

 

[g-regulate]

greg with the authority

Is anyone feelin me on this? The game just doesn't feel..... pure... to me. It feels like so many individual character changes are made, as well as a lot of universal changes from version-to-version, which kill any kind of flow from each version. I feel like i have to learn a new game each time!

 

[Veril]

G-reg, back me up.
"performs forbidden G-reg summoning ritual"

thanks for using my name several times.

Spoiler

The human sacrifice was overkill.

Now I know how to get your attention... and knowing is half the battle.

Is anyone feelin me on this?

Sorta, a game still in beta is bound to change. A lot of Cape's changes make sense, I just do not like the lowered hitstun and move decay. Have you spent time playing his set? I think a lot of the character specific changes are really good.


If you and Chibo are wbr conservatives, and Cape is a progressive, I guess I'm an independent...

 

[CT Chia]

i dont think im quite as conservative as greg lol

but yea in general iv got the conservative mindset. aka, if its not broke, dont fix it

and ****it what is wrong with the wbr, have u all forgot samus was a character?

 

[Veril]

The only thing really wrong with Samus is the silly self-comboing jab... which was brought up really early on in this thread.

The problem with the "if its not broke" mindset is that the game really could be quite a bit better if some of the non-essential character balance changes are made. Stale moves is O.o and lowered hitstun is overkill for fixing problems that might be removed by: 1. fixed ALRs, 2. changed angles on A FEW throws, 3. deep-frying falco (seriously, he'll taste just like chicken), 4. stop pumping Ness full of win juice (irl win juice is a combination of a grape flavored energy drink, modafinil and an aqueous solution of amphetamine salts... Ness's little heart was never meant to handle win juice).

I tried out Cape's set without the hitstun reduction, stale moves or NADT and... it was awesome...er than 5.0

 

[JCaesar]

After playing Cape's set quite a bit, I think the most important change was the slight shieldstun reduction and fixed ALRs.

I'm still highly in favor of slight hitstun reduction (.46 feels great to me, .44 was overkill) and NADT. They get rid of most of the silly autocombos and greatly increase the importance of strings, baiting, and chasing in the air game. Things that should work but don't anymore due to reduced hitstun can be fixed on a case by case basis if need be.

I'm not completely sold on stale moves though. Straight damage staling would be great but what we have now is less than ideal. The fresh move bonus would be a great strategic element with kill moves, but with the fresh move bonus in addition to lower hitstun, it's ****ed up a lot of low % and throw combos which kind of annoys me. I see the purpose of stale moves, but I think it may just have too many unintended consequences.

 

[GHNeko]

It's a shame we can't disable fresh move bonus for throws, and only allow specials/A moves.

I've always been pro fresh moves.

 

[The Cape]

As much as I like the stale moves and fresh bonus mechanic its just too ugly for the way the game is now. I'll pull it out for the upcoming "beta release": or "nightly" or whatever the **** we are calling it.

.46 hitstun is also what I have been running with and with the addition of the NADT (two compliment each other very well) it actually creates a much more in depth game as is. Also caught a few minor glitch (like ZSS D tilt being dropped 20 degrees instead of 10) and have updated those. Doing some more testing with Caesar this weekend and we should be good to go on a nightly.

Glitches fixed:
Lucario upB autosnap
Side B autosnaps
Wolf upB freeze

Needs found:
Ledge snap during hitlag removal.

 

[Veril]

good s***, Cape!

 

[leafgreen386]

Game is feeling so much better now without stale moves in there. NADT and .46 hitstun feels pretty nice. I need to play with it more, but so far I like it.

 

[CT Chia]

those ledge snaps are not glitches. well, lucarios practically is, not not side ones. why remove them? who was broken with side ledge snapping?

whats NADT? iv heard ppl mention it but dunno what it is

how is no move staling ugly for how the game is.

 

[GHNeko]

NADT = no air dodge during tumble

 

[Magus420]

Ledgesnapping while moving upwards wasn't a glitch either.

The only reason the side moves autosnap is because the no ASL code was made to prevent grabbing while moving upwards, instead of made to only allow ledge grabs while moving downward. Because of that the code doesn't cover situations where you are neither moving up or down so they end up autosnapping as a result. You could argue that the way the code functions is a 'glitch' just the same.

 

[GHNeko]

i thought the code checked the position of a character relative to the ledge, and checks y-axis position vs last frame and if its negative, it snaps, and if its positive, it doesnt?

 

[Magus420]

...and if it's 0 it snaps because it only prevents it if it's positive, instead of only allowing it if it's negative.

 

[GHNeko]

cant the code be altered so that it doesnt snap if the net is 0? wouldnt that also fix the hitlag autosnap issue as well?

 

[Magus420]

Yes it would, but that involves someone knowing how/willing to do that.

 

[GHNeko]

ugh, sucks that Almas/PK aren't here and Dant is busy doing his own stuff.

Isnt NASL PSA-able?

 

[shanus]

ugh, sucks that Almas/PK aren't here and Dant is busy doing his own stuff.

Isnt NASL PSA-able?

we do not know how to measure the characters current velocity. We only know how to alter it, and how to disable ledgegrabbing.

 

[CT Chia]

I don't really see any problem with the current ledge situations tbh. The only one I would be interested in fixing would be Lucarios. He has too much going for him for his recovery to also be amazing (sweetspotting or going on stage to attack out of it). Normally characters that are crazy beast like him on stage need a weakness somewhere else, and since he's not particularly light and doesn't die easily, recovery should be one of those problems as it was meant to be in Brawl, what with no hitbox and all.

 

[GHNeko]

you dont see a probably with autosnap side b and hitlag forcing recoveries going up to snap simply because you hit a character or a character's shield?

 

[CT Chia]

No, I actually found ledge snapping while coming in contact like that an interesting defensive option to go toe and toe ledgegarding

 

[goodoldganon]

I agree with Chibo, but it is certainly nothing I'll miss. The faults and benefits go both ways. If we can remove it then cool, but I'm not losing sleep over it's inclusion or possible removal.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, personally I don't mind the sweetspot on hitlag. Also, FAWK Sheik's air to ground chain edgeguard without that mechanic to at least make it not completely ******** on some characters.

 

[GHNeko]

Sweetspot on hitlag has personally bugged me becaues it doesnt make sense to me really. I shield your attack becaues you're not sweetspotting properly so I can punish you, right?

no. sweetspot on hitlag saves the day.

 

[The Cape]

The sweetspot on hitlag can be argued either way from what I can see.

If the opponent is stupid enough to get hit it allows you to snap the ledge as you would be safe if you attack connected anyway (this is the current support theory anyway)

But on the other side, it also does not allow you to complete your attacks from the ledge at all. Example: Link upB hits the opponent, then snaps the ledge. Now Link is actually in a WORSE situation as he has some trouble getting off the ledge, but if the attack had completed it would have knocked the opponent away, giving Link a free getup onto the stage.

So it can be argued either way, but I personally would like to remove sweetspot during hitlag as it restricts more options and its only real positive action is basically babying the player for not sweetspotting correctly in the first place.

 

[goodoldganon]

That and punishing overzealous defenders. The cons slightly outweigh the pros but I feel like their are bigger fish to fry and from the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like this will be a 2 second fix.