Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[True Blue Warrior]

It's about as dumb as the time someone said Pacman was a literal who

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not reasonable to call Punch-Out a fighting game at all. Sure you do LITERALLY fight, but in the context of video games the genre "fighting" means something completely different from Punch-Out. You would never reccomend it to someone looking to get into fighting games.

Yeah, it's definitely reasonable. The whole point is fighting an enemy with your fists. That's the concept behind it.

It's more than a fighting game, though. That's a small part of it. It's a sports game first and foremost, with fighting and puzzle elements. That's why people call it a fighting game, because it has fighting game elements.

It's not any different from people calling Zelda an rpg(when only game was a straight-out rpg with the Hyrule Warrior games have an experience system that makes it close to an rpg again).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

So, about those legal disputes.....

Something just came out today.

Namco might be using the same loophole they did when GCC owned the rights. Royalties for cabinets apply to coin operated machines, not ones without them, as these appear to be.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I had the percieved limitations and the comparision with Melee in mind (which competitive scene also started small, but became long lasting because there was confidence in the game). I'm not meaning that as a burn towards ARMS - ARMS can do well, people didn't feel that confident in it since it was seen as limited (not that ARMS is limited - the competitive scene shows it's far from - but perception = / = reality).

I feel like we're having two different conversations here.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Is this something that Namco did?

It says copyright Bandai Namco at the end.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It says copyright Bandai Namco at the end.

Well if Namco still owns Ms. PAC-MAN the character, it would have to. Could still be a 3rd party made deal though.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

For me it was , Banjo Kazooie was my main childhood game so I always wanted them in, but thought they were basically impossible due to Microsoft. Once they got revealed I still couldn't fully comprehend what happened for a week.
Is a close second, I wanted him in since forever and lost hope for a while, so seeing him in was a surreal experience too.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

Oh my gooood I remember that, the guy said Pacman was like Hitler because they're both wellknown but not exactly popular.

For the record, it was made to explain why Pacman's amiibo served solely to be shelf warmers

 

[Jomosensual]

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

Yep, happened during the Smash 4 days. Wasn't here for those days but that was talked about in here during a dry spell

And... uh.... wtf. How in the **** does anyone see anything close to Hitler in Pacman

 

[CaptainAmerica]

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

...

...

...Some people take bashing other Smash characters a bit too seriously

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The previously postponed Super #SmashBrosUltimate Online Open May 2020 regions 5 & 6 Opening Rounds have been rescheduled for 6/13, now taking place before the regions 3 & 4 Opening Rounds. Both regional finals will be livestreamed starting at 10am PT on 6/14. pic.twitter.com/j43tuHzH1f

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) June 11, 2020

Do they usually do reveals before or after these kinds of tournaments?

 

[SKX31]

I feel like we're having two different conversations here.

Yeah. We are. By mistake on my end - I wanted to expand on what you talked about and note that one of the aspects could have a major effect on a game, especially after launch.

The previously postponed Super #SmashBrosUltimate Online Open May 2020 regions 5 & 6 Opening Rounds have been rescheduled for 6/13, now taking place before the regions 3 & 4 Opening Rounds. Both regional finals will be livestreamed starting at 10am PT on 6/14. pic.twitter.com/j43tuHzH1f

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) June 11, 2020

Do they usually do reveals before or after these kinds of tournaments?

Not to my knowledge, no - last year's Open Online tournament were for 4 paid-for EVO 2019 tickets (and I guess this years' Open Onlines would've been for this year's EVO if not for the pandemic).

 

[Gentlepanda]

The previously postponed Super #SmashBrosUltimate Online Open May 2020 regions 5 & 6 Opening Rounds have been rescheduled for 6/13, now taking place before the regions 3 & 4 Opening Rounds. Both regional finals will be livestreamed starting at 10am PT on 6/14. pic.twitter.com/j43tuHzH1f

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) June 11, 2020

Do they usually do reveals before or after these kinds of tournaments?

they'd probably give a heads up if there was something at the end

 

[Perkilator]

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

Wait, WHAT?! Who said THAT and WHEN? WHY?!

 

[Jomosensual]

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

For me its Joker easily. I loved Persona 5 and it also helped that we didn't know it was a Smash trailer coming in. My 2 brothers and I woke up the rest of the house screaming at the reveal.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Around last E3, was there a similar tournament and were Hero and Banjo announced before or after said tournament?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Wait, WHAT?! Who said THAT and WHEN? WHY?!

Here was my reaction 5 years ago to that analogy.

 

[zeldasmash]

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

...Ladies and gentleman....if this doesn’t prove absurdity and stupidity....I genuinely don’t know what does...

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Unpopular opinion, but I think Taizo Hori from Dig Dug would make not only a cool 2nd Bamco rep, but also a 3rd party retro rep.

I mean, Dig Dug is a classic, but there's a zero percent chance he ever gets called Taizo Hori if he was to get into Smash. He'll be Dig Dug if anything (and also personally, I feel like emphasizing only the arcade classics of Bandai Namco is just ignoring their very successful and beloved modern history in gaming a bit too much... Especially since Pac-Man is already pulling so much weight of exactly that classic arcade era).

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Here was my reaction 5 years ago to that analogy.

This is your captain speaking, we’re approaching a bruh moment

 

[SKX31]

Around last E3, was there a similar tournament and were Hero and Banjo announced before or after said tournament?

The Online Opens aren't structured around character reveals (at least not so far): The tournament I talked about - Online Open June 2019 - was for those 4 EVO tickets and not related to last E3. The Online Open took place June 29th and June 30th. After the reveals.

(They also have held more Online Opens since then, I just recalled. One in August 2019 for spots in the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate World Challenge Cup (October 2019). The Japanese VOD of the Challenge Cup final is here.)

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The Online Opens aren't structured around character reveals (at least not so far): The tournament I talked about - Online Open June 2019 - was for those 4 EVO tickets and not related to last E3. The Online Open took place June 29th and June 30th. After the reveals.

(They also have held more Online Opens since then, I just recalled. One in August 2019 for spots in the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate World Challenge Cup (October 2019). The Japanese VOD of the Challenge Cup final is here.)

So hopefully we’ll see the ARMS character and maybe FP7 revealed before this tournament... just not usable yet obviously

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So hopefully we’ll see the ARMS character and maybe FP7 revealed before this tournament... just not usable yet obviously

I doubt reveal will be related to the tournament at all.

 

[Deleted member]

The previously postponed Super #SmashBrosUltimate Online Open May 2020 regions 5 & 6 Opening Rounds have been rescheduled for 6/13, now taking place before the regions 3 & 4 Opening Rounds. Both regional finals will be livestreamed starting at 10am PT on 6/14. pic.twitter.com/j43tuHzH1f

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) June 11, 2020

Do they usually do reveals before or after these kinds of tournaments?

At best we'd get an announcement for a Sakurai Presents much like we did with EVO 2018 and the August Direct but even then I don't really expect it as Smash has never revealed much at tournaments beyond just that. They have no history of announcing stuff at tournaments beyond that one-off.

 

[SNEKeater]

It's because fighting games are extremely niche. They are extremely specific in what they do, most series being almost copy pasted from one another. You can capture almost all of the genre's essence with a handful of characters. Of course you can give all characters different movesets, but despite that, do you really see that huge a difference between Ken and Terry?

On the other end, platformers and rpgs are super vague. There's no given structure to those games, and they can feel extremely different from one another. Take... Portal for example, which has clear platforming aspects, and yet is also a FPS and a puzzle game. Which is nowhere near what Mario is all about. Or that Goose simulator game. Or even close-to-home series like Metroid. And the same goes for rpgs, which can go from Gauntlet to TWEWY, to Personna or Dragon Quest, or Skyrim.

And so mix those two together, and you'd have what I assume a conscious decision not to make Smash too close to fighting games. Because it doesn't want to look as elitist as fighting games, and because the design space is very small compared to other genres. And yet at the same time, it wants to celebrate that genre properly too, and it's why Ryu, Ken and Terry made it. Maybe a fourth is coming (to cover beat'em-ups), but seeing how SNK gave almost everything they had, I'd say that was one hell of a celebration, and also where it ends.

In normal circumstances I'd answer every part of your post, but seriously... By reading you it's clear that you won't change your stance about it, and it's really sad, because some of the things you have said are, at best, REALLY really questionable.

But I'll answer one thing: beat'em-ups aren't fighting games.

Imo, all eyes should be on the PS5 event tomorrow

If there is anything Bloodborne and RE8 related, we should start taking notice of it.

Not really. Resident Evil 8 has been rumoured to appear tonight since weeks, and leaks about the game's setting and plot already appeared a few months ago. RE8 appearing at PS5 event is a safe bet. Bloodborne Remastered rumour started 4-5 days ago as well, so it wouldn't be really surprising if it happens.

I've seen the leaks.

And without spoiling anything, the game ruined itself anyways with its "NO FUN ALLOWED" mentality.

Honestly, I find this perspective really dumb. I don't think it's really hard to understand that certain games or genres aren't really supposed to bring joy and tears of happiness. Of course, this is an exaggeration, but I think my point is clear.
It's a game with a heavy emphasis in survival, crudity and rawness. You will feel tension while playing, just like happened with the first game, or just as happens with horror games in general. You're usually tense while playing games such as Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Fatal Frame, and more. You're not supposed to be like "wow haha this funny game is funny" while playing those kind of games, but to feel fear, nervous and careful. If people can or can't enjoy that, that's another matter.

If anything, I'd call it a different type of fun.

Also: TLOU2 previews were out early this month and all the journalists who played it we're constantly praising everything about the gameplay: action, stealth, violence, tension, enemy AI, level design, and more. So it's not like people can't enjoy a game that has a serious and raw tone.

 

[Sari]

What, somebody actually did that? Wow, that is bad, but not as bad as the time someone compared him to Hitler (which yes was a thing that happened in this very forum).

I still think the king of awful takes was the guy who said "Terry got into Smash because Sakurai was in a gay relationship with his creator."

(And yes, someone unironically said that in this very thread)

 

[cool6012]

Yeah, it's definitely reasonable. The whole point is fighting an enemy with your fists. That's the concept behind it.

It's more than a fighting game, though. That's a small part of it. It's a sports game first and foremost, with fighting and puzzle elements. That's why people call it a fighting game, because it has fighting game elements.

It's not any different from people calling Zelda an rpg(when only game was a straight-out rpg with the Hyrule Warrior games have an experience system that makes it close to an rpg again).

I literally acknowledged that you do indeed fight. Idk why you ignored that.

When you talk about fighting games, you're talking about Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Guilty Gear, King of Fighters, Dragon Ball FighterZ, BlazBlue, Killer Instict, Smash. Punch-Out has absolutely nothing in common with any of these games except that you fight, and even then fighting in Punch-Out is conducted in a completely different way to any actual fighting game. Punch-Out is a boxing game and it is a sports game, but it definitely isnt a fighting game.


EDIT: And also by your logic any game that includes fighting is a fighting game. So Zelda is and a fighting game and so is Streets of Rage.

 

[Perkilator]

Question: if Haley Joel Osment couldn't reprise his role as Sora if Sora got in, what's the more likely scenario:
-His Japanese voice actor's clips are used for overseas versions
OR
-Someone who could pull off a Haley Joel Osment impression is used as Sora's English VA for Ultimate

 

[Phoenixio]

In normal circumstances I'd answer every part of your post, but seriously... By reading you it's clear that you won't change your stance about it, and it's really sad, because some of the things you have said are, at best, REALLY really questionable.

But I'll answer one thing: beat'em-ups aren't fighting games.

I don't usually answer posts like these, because you seem stuck to your opinion and won't change it, and because your arguments are flawed. But just for the record: beat'em-ups are really similar to fighting games.

See how useful that was as a comment? I made my opinion sound like a fact, used a condescending tone, and brought nothing to the actual conversation but salt. That's what you just did. And you could have skipped that whole comment whatsoever, really. We were just discussing: you don't have to agree with what I say, but my perception and opinion is as good as yours, on a topic as trivial as the under/over representation and affiliation to pure fighting games.

I think beat'em-ups and fighting games are extremely niche, with little variations from game to game, similar to each other in gameplay, and that means little design space for Smash content. If my opinion doesn't answer your question/comment about why people think they're over-represented and less likely to appear again as DLC, just ignore it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I literally acknowledged that you do indeed fight. Idk why you ignored that.

When you talk about fighting games, you're talking about Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Guilty Gear, King of Fighters, Dragon Ball FighterZ, BlazBlue, Killer Instict, Smash. Punch-Out has absolutely nothing in common with any of these games except that you fight, and even then fighting in Punch-Out is conducted in a completely different way to any actual fighting game. Punch-Out is a boxing game and it is a sports game, but it definitely isnt a fighting game.

Which is how genres work. When you have specific elements from a genre, you are labeled part of that genre. Including officially. It's a sports game specifically. With fighting game elements and puzzle game elements. It's no different from calling it a puzzle game as well. In the end, the core genre is sports. People still don't properly acknowledge that despite being more accurate than fighting.

This is no different from the Zelda games being labeled rpg's when they have just as many rpg elements as Punch-Out!! has fighting game elements. That's why people will continue to label it a fighting game, as it has outright elements of a fighting game. It's meant to literally be one-on-one fights between two people throwing punches. Boxing is a fighting-based sport to begin with. Martial Arts fall under sports at times too, but are still a form of fighting as well. It's no different.

Games can be multiple genres at once. It's completely reasonable to say it's a fighting game because it properly falls under that genre in the end. It's not strange at all. Now, the strange part is ignoring it's a sports game in itself. People tend to forget that's the core thing.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Question: if Haley Joel Osment couldn't reprise his role as Sora if Sora got in, what's the more likely scenario:
-His Japanese voice actor's clips are used for overseas versions
OR
-Someone who could pull off a Haley Joel Osment impression is used as Sora's English VA for Ultimate

They would probably get his JP voice. While Id be sad if Haley wasnt able to get his role, his Jzp voice is good enougn for me

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Question: if Haley Joel Osment couldn't reprise his role as Sora if Sora got in, what's the more likely scenario:
-His Japanese voice actor's clips are used for overseas versions
OR
-Someone who could pull off a Haley Joel Osment impression is used as Sora's English VA for Ultimate

They'd probably just pull a Banjo and rip the voices from the games

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Question: if Haley Joel Osment couldn't reprise his role as Sora if Sora got in, what's the more likely scenario:
-His Japanese voice actor's clips are used for overseas versions
OR
-Someone who could pull off a Haley Joel Osment impression is used as Sora's English VA for Ultimate

Why would he not be able to? Is he unionized?

 

[Tako Tuesday]

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

Where's ? Him and were the hypest reveal for me.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Where's ? Him and were the hypest reveal for me.

I had forgotten that Mega Man was an highly requested character before Sm4sh. He'd definitely be listed with those others in that case.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Question: if Haley Joel Osment couldn't reprise his role as Sora if Sora got in, what's the more likely scenario:
-His Japanese voice actor's clips are used for overseas versions
OR
-Someone who could pull off a Haley Joel Osment impression is used as Sora's English VA for Ultimate

Probably use his Japanese voice actor like Cloud. What I'm wondering is how much content Nintendo will get for Sora. Does Kingdom Hearts suffer the same rights issues as Final Fantasy?

 

[Jerry98]

Honestly, I find this perspective really dumb. I don't think it's really hard to understand that certain games or genres aren't really supposed to bring joy and tears of happiness. Of course, this is an exaggeration, but I think my point is clear.
It's a game with a heavy emphasis in survival, crudity and rawness. You will feel tension while playing, just like happened with the first game, or just as happens with horror games in general. You're usually tense while playing games such as Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Fatal Frame, and more. You're not supposed to be like "wow haha this funny game is funny" while playing those kind of games, but to feel fear, nervous and careful. If people can or can't enjoy that, that's another matter.

If anything, I'd call it a different type of fun.

Also: TLOU2 previews were out early this month and all the journalists who played it we're constantly praising everything about the gameplay: action, stealth, violence, tension, enemy AI, level design, and more. So it's not like people can't enjoy a game that has a serious and raw tone.

Exactly!
A game doesn't have to be fun, it has to be entertaining. I don't know if I'm using the correct words because english is not my first language, but in my mind they have a slightly different meaning. A fun game is surely entertaining, but there are a lot of entertaining games that are not fun.
An example can be To the Moon: it is not a fun game, but it entertains you and it's a masterpiece in its semplicity.
Or Death Stranding: "fun" is not a word I would use to describe the game, but the great settings and storytelling and the unusual but interesting gameplay are entertaining for the player.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Probably use his Japanese voice actor like Cloud. What I'm wondering is how much content Nintendo will get for Sora. Does Kingdom Hearts suffer the same rights issues as Final Fantasy?

consitring there is about 4 KH games on Nintendo systems, Id say they are Gucci

 

[SNEKeater]

I don't usually answer posts like these, because you seem stuck to your opinion and won't change it, and because your arguments are flawed. But just for the record: beat'em-ups are really similar to fighting games.

See how useful that was as a comment? I made my opinion sound like a fact, used a condescending tone, and brought nothing to the actual conversation but salt. That's what you just did. And you could have skipped that whole comment whatsoever, really. We were just discussing: you don't have to agree with what I say, but my perception and opinion is as good as yours, on a topic as trivial as the under/over representation and affiliation to pure fighting games.

I think beat'em-ups and fighting games are extremely niche, with little variations from game to game, similar to each other in gameplay, and that means little design space for Smash content. If my opinion doesn't answer your question/comment about why people think they're over-represented and less likely to appear again as DLC, just ignore it.

I didn't say "beat'em-ups are completely opposite to fighting games". It's not like one beat'em-ups are visual novels or something. Of course both genres share some similarities, but still, both are genres still have enough differences to be considered different genres. It's not the same case but it's like considering WRPG and JRPG games as the same thing when it's very obvious they have enough differences to be considered it's own thing.

While I don't have any problem to admit that my comment wasn't precisely very contributive, I don't really think it was that 'bad' as you seem to express. I can assure you that neither I was salty or seeking for bringing salt to the discussion. It's just that some of the things you said were completely wrong to me, but not really wrong in the sense of "well, each person has a different opinion", but more like "c'mon, this is just plain wrong".
That's why I reacted like that. As I said, I won't deny that I could have done better with my previous answer.

I mean, you can feel like you what about this matter, but I think Terry or even Ken to an extent were enough proof to show that FGC characters can offer cool and different things in comparison to each other in the context of Smash. If you really can't see that, I don't think this will lead us anywhere. About FGC or beat'em-ups being niche, I don't see why you're being persistent with that. I don't think anyone here said that both genres are the most popular ones in the world. But extremely niche? I think that's really an exaggeration, at least for FGC games.

Certainly, fighting games are mostly catered to a certain and loyal group of people, but I don't think that you really can consider a genre to be extremely niche when franchises such as Tekken or Street Fighter have sold 49 and 45 million of copies (numbers of december 2019). Yeah, those two are some of the big names of the genre and not every fighting IP sells like that, but it's one thing to be a relatively niche but still popular genre and a completely different thing is being a extremely niche genre. Maybe we have different definitions of what is "niche" and what means "extremely"? In any case, a genre that is capable to have franchises selling these numbers isn't really what you say.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Fighting games are as niche as RPGs. There's more RPGs than fighting games, but generally speaking they both sell really small numbers except for a handful of juggernauts that pull in big sales.