Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[True Blue Warrior]

It's gatekeeper bull**** o'clock huh

Claiming ARMS isn’t an actual fighting game but a tech demo is the dumbest argument I’ve read since someone argued that Ice Climber is more popular than SNK games.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I'd at least consider ARMS as more of a fighter than something like Punch-Out! which is pretty much a glorified puzzle game.

 

[Opossum]

I'd at least consider ARMS as more of a fighter than something like Punch-Out! which is pretty much a glorified puzzle game.

I mean in fairness nobody would claim Punch-Out!! is a fighting game unless they had no idea how the game worked.

Regardless, saying what amounts to "ARMS isn't a fighting game because I don't like it" is toxic gatekeeping.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

You know

today marks 1 year since hero and banjo’s reveals

would be nice if we got some character reveals today just sayin

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And that's off the top of my head. That's not even counting Ms. Pac-Man, though the rights are weird with the character, so that could be why she's not an Echo. I'm sure there's some more Bamco options too of note.

From what I've heard, Namco doesn't own her at all anymore.

Either that or the legal battle was for distribution rights, and they could still theoretically use her for purposes that have nothing to do with the Ms. PAC-MAN arcade. Kinda doubt it though.

I'd at least consider ARMS as more of a fighter than something like Punch-Out! which is pretty much a glorified puzzle game.

Hmm. I wouldn't call it a puzzle game per-se, but the challenge is more on pattern recognition and reflexes than learning how your character works in order to beat someone else, or a CPU if you don't have friends so I guess you have a point.

EDIT: Wait a minute. That's how Mega Man's bosses work. Does that make Mega Man a puzzle game?

would be nice if we got some character reveals today just sayin

Would be nice if they revealed it three months ago but, here we are.

...

Still waiting...

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'm still convinced we'll see more Bandai Namco content at some point. Nintendo still recognizes the value of working with them, and a franchise like Tekken, Tales, or Dark Souls are all popular Japanese gaming mainstays that could swing them to pick Bandai Namco characters again. Plus, Bandai Namco makes Smash, so they're probably one of the easier third parties to work with when they want more content. They supported Smash 4's DLC cycle with several Mii costumes, so I'd be surprised to see those costumes not return in any capacity.

My money is still on either Lloyd or Heihachi. Lloyd is a longtime fan request for Smash and someone Sakurai has expressed interest for in the past as the Tales rep, so I could see Nintendo going that angle. Or I could see them just recognizing how big Tekken is and recognizing the appeal of Street Fighter X King of Fighters X Tekken in addition to all of their IPs. Sure, Sakurai said he initially had trouble making Heihachi work... but as others have pointed out, he has a tendency to revisit concepts that he may have initially struggled with in prior titles and also if Nintendo chooses Tekken, I'm sure Sakurai would find a way to make it work for them even if it required a lot of work and creativity on his part.

 

[Wunderwaft]

You know

today marks 1 year since hero and banjo’s reveals

would be nice if we got some character reveals today just sayin

We will get character reveals. They'll just drop in June 30th.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We will get character reveals. They'll just drop in June 30th.

Bold of you to assume we'll get more than ARMS

 

[8-peacock-8]

ARMS IS a fighting game.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yeah fighting to stay alive

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm still convinced we'll see more Bandai Namco content at some point. Nintendo still recognizes the value of working with them, and a franchise like Tekken, Tales, or Dark Souls are all popular Japanese gaming mainstays that could swing them to pick Bandai Namco characters again. Plus, Bandai Namco makes Smash, so they're probably one of the easier third parties to work with when they want more content. They supported Smash 4's DLC cycle with several Mii costumes, so I'd be surprised to see those costumes not return in any capacity.

My money is still on either Lloyd or Heihachi. Lloyd is a longtime fan request for Smash and someone Sakurai has expressed interest for in the past as the Tales rep, so I could see Nintendo going that angle. Or I could see them just recognizing how big Tekken is and recognizing the appeal of Street Fighter X King of Fighters X Tekken in addition to all of their IPs. Sure, Sakurai said he initially had trouble making Heihachi work... but as others have pointed out, he has a tendency to revisit concepts that he may have initially struggled with in prior titles and also if Nintendo chooses Tekken, I'm sure Sakurai would find a way to make it work for them even if it required a lot of work and creativity on his part.

Lloyd and Heihachi would make sense as E3 type reveals had E3 still been a thing.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Aren’t supposedly the majority of reveals on a Thursday anyway? (What’s the source for that claim btw?)

 

[Garteam]

Don't worry guys, we're still getting the ARMS announcement in June.

June 2021, that is.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Dark Souls are all popular Japanese gaming mainstays that could swing them to pick Bandai Namco characters again.

Japan likes Dark Souls?

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Id still rather have Yuri in smash then Lloyd

 

[Mushroomguy12]

From what I've heard, Namco doesn't own her at all anymore.

Either that or the legal battle was for distribution rights, and they could still theoretically use her for purposes that have nothing to do with the Ms. PAC-MAN arcade. Kinda doubt it though.

Still don't understand why she was allowed on the Pac-Land stage but nothing else, not even a Spirit.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Id still rather have Yuri in smash then Lloyd

Well I'd still rather have Lloyd in Smash than Yuri so it appears we're at an impasse.

But I know what to do:
CP 7: Lloyd
CP 8: Yuri

Tales of fans win.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as Ms. Pac-Man, the situation with her is a bit of legal nightmare as this video details:

Basically after a 2006 lawsuit, certain releases of the original Ms. Pac-Man arcade game meant Bandai-Namco had to pay royalties to GCC, the original developers of the game. This has led to a gradual de-emphasis of the character in various marketing and media, to the point where various international stores/mobile games have an unrelated female Pac character in her place. It got even more muddled when Bandi-Namco sued ATGames, most famous for releasing dubious plug and play consoles, for making an unauthorized Ms. Pac-Man cabinet. To make matters worse, ATGames ended up buying those aforementioned royalty rights from GCC, meaning Bando-Namco, (for specific Ms. Pac-Man re-releases) has to give royalties to a company they not terribly inclined to work with given ATGames' shenanigans.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Basically after a 2006 lawsuit, certain releases of the original Ms. Pac-Man arcade game meant Bandai-Namco had to pay royalties to GCC, the original developers of the game. This has led to a gradual de-emphasis of the character in various marketing and media, to the point where various international stores/arcades had an unrelated female Pac character in her place for ads. It got even more muddled when those royalty rights were purchased by the ever dubious ATGames, most famous for releasing dubious plug and play consoles. Basically Bandi-Namco is stuck potentially paying money to a company that they sued for making an authorized Ms Pac-Man arcade cabinet back in 2019.

Do they have to pay royalties for using the characters at all or just the arcade game?

 

[SKX31]

Japan likes Dark Souls?

Yes. The first Dark Souls started strong (2011 article) and and III likewise did really well (2016 article) there on release.

In other news:

Will also be released in China on the same day. Technically the first Tencent developed game to launch on Switch in China.

In the West they already released Arena of Valor a while back. https://t.co/QkXdBdL2MO pic.twitter.com/yYzaXp3hxz

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) June 11, 2020

Doesn't have to do with Smash specifically, but it's evidence that Nintendo's collabs with Tencent isn't just limited to "releasing the Switch in China".

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Do they have to pay royalties for using the characters at all or just the arcade game?

Just the arcade game, but there could be a mindset that they have no interest in promoting a character whose most notable game to re-release is one they're stuck paying royalties for. Plus they might just be playing it safe in regards to use of the character for various games just in case. That's just speculation, but it does seem telling that her appearances in Pac-Man marketing have noticeably fallen the past 15 years.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

ARMS is a fighting game.

It has a multitude of characters who play differently from each other, on a stage and the game is centered around one on one melee combat. Just because it's from behind the shoulder, doesn't have a strong backstory or there's a limited number of moves doesn't make it not a fighting game.

To think we'd hear this argument from freaking Smashboards of all places.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, it doesn't really matter if certain people don't consider ARMS a fighting game (it totally is, but that's besides the point.)

It's already confirmed to be part of the DLC, so if you're just saying that in an attempt to belittle something you don't like, you might as well just save your breath and wait for F7 while the people who do care about ARMS enjoy F6.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Id still rather have Yuri in smash then Lloyd

I hope that whichever one gets in we end up with music from multiple tales of games and not just the one they picked for the playable roster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Punch-Out is a Sports game with puzzle elements as the core idea behind the gameplay. The type of sports game it is, boxing, makes it reasonable to call it a fighting game too.

As for Ms. Pac-Man, it sucks, but it makes sense. Only the bare minimum is used(Pac-Land) since that was the only Pac-Man course that didn't have a 3DS exclusive mechanic. Which is why it didn't come back. I don't agree with it and would be fine with losing the mechanic, and they could've remade it using a different Pac-Maze setup so it's not the same exact stage, just without what makes it interesting(besides music). It'd be like Sector Z being changed out for Corneria in the way it'd be changed(I want most stages back, though I'm okay with "if a stage was updated, but is the same official stage, you can leave it be". For the most part, the only two unique stages are Final Stage, the original variant of Final Destination, and Fighting Polygon Cave, the original Battlefield, that kind of stand out. Though they're not as unique as Sector Z is to Corneria, but I'll take those two old variants over multiple Battlefields/Final Destinations re-added so it's "all stages back". There's a ton of cool cut ones, besides Non-Playables. Jungle Hijynx, for instance).

 

[SKX31]

ARMS is a fighting game.

It has a multitude of characters who play differently from each other, on a stage and the game is centered around one on one melee combat. Just because it's from behind the shoulder, doesn't have a strong backstory or there's a limited number of moves doesn't make it not a fighting game.

To think we'd hear this argument from freaking Smashboards of all places.

It's worth noting that ARMS fell off since it didn't get the confidence / support it needed. There were some tournaments - EVO Japan 2018 for example - but things went somewhat awry already by then:

Like most of the small scenes that dot the competitive video game landscape, the ARMS scene is propped up by its players, who form teams and organize tournaments to keep competition active. Though a few players are sponsored by teams, for the most part it is a community effort; a wrinkle highlighted by news of Joseph “TenTanMan” Mills being let go from his small sponsorship.

Mills is the No. 1 ARMS player in the United States, an achievement he tells Compete was initially “a joke to pull people in.” Less than a month away from the game’s biggest event yet [EVO Japan 2018], one of the top players in the world had to open a crowdfunding platform to pay for his ticket to the main stage. (His goal, however, was met in just two hours.)

The playerbase is there, but it's difficult for them to grow if there's not much confidence in the game from outside the playerbase. I do believe that FP6 is Nintendo's way to try and push the reset button on ARMS and start fresh (it sold pretty well but tapered off hard, leaving the small competitive scene). If anything, ARMS could do well - I just think it could use some changes. Expanded modes or whatever.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Seems chances are leaning the 16th rumor being perhaps true. Have to wait and see on Tuesday.

 

[Perkilator]

I'm still convinced we'll see more Bandai Namco content at some point. Nintendo still recognizes the value of working with them, and a franchise like Tekken, Tales, or Dark Souls are all popular Japanese gaming mainstays that could swing them to pick Bandai Namco characters again. Plus, Bandai Namco makes Smash, so they're probably one of the easier third parties to work with when they want more content. They supported Smash 4's DLC cycle with several Mii costumes, so I'd be surprised to see those costumes not return in any capacity.

Unpopular opinion, but I think Taizo Hori from Dig Dug would make not only a cool 2nd Bamco rep, but also a 3rd party retro rep.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Happy Dreams-Come-True day, everyone!

For a ton of people Banjo-Kazooie and Hero are the two most hype reveals to ever grace Smash Bros. And I think that’s even a bit of an understatement.

Ever since the early days of Melee people have been asking for these two characters.

Japan was adamant about the Dragon Quest Series to the point the series has become a phenomenon. Each release was met with jaw dropping fanfare one after the other and rightly so. The series has managed to do what almost nothing else in Japan has. It crossed generations, it sparks conversations between the introverts, the popular kids, the girls, the boys, the inbetweens, the old, the young, the gamers, and the non gamers, and has become something that in Japan just IS. Even when a Dragon Quest character seemed in reach it seemed impossible for them to all come together. It was a self made rule that no Dragon Quest Heroes could crossover with each other at Enix and Sakurai was able to shatter that rule. He created a SINGLE character that was able to cross all of DQ history. So to all my fellow Dragon Quest fans. You did it. Happy 1-year.

Ever since I can remember Banjo-Kazooie was a part of the Nintendo Family. While everyone else’s first games around my age we’re Halo, or God of War, mine was Diddy Kong Racing. All those characters together in that game and Mario Kart made me think of Banjo, Conker, Mario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and the rest as one big happy family. So as a baffled 4 or 5 year old opening up Smash Bros. And going “Where’s Banjo?” I was certain I wasn’t the only one. Melee cane and went and then the family was shattered with the buy out of Rare. It seemed like there was no possibility for a competing Console Manufacturer to allow Banjo-Kazooie in Smash. And this Project Dream was dead. Or it was until about 5 years ago. The release of Minecraft but Microsoft came and Phil Spencer said he would like to see Banjo in Smash. Years went by and we got nothing. We figured it was just marketing for Phil to say something like that. But then after Minecraft, and Cuphead, and New Super Lucky’s Tale, and another tweet from Phil it seemed like a glimmer of hope was getting brighter. And then, today a year ago, Project Dream came true. Welcome back to the Nintendo family, Banjo-Kazooie. Happy 1-year fellow Banjo-Kazooie fans. You did it.

To me, a year hasn’t seemed like a year. It’s still surreal for me to see those two on the character selection screen just knowing the amount of people they made happy.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It's worth noting that ARMS fell off since it didn't get the confidence / support it needed. There were some tournaments - EVO Japan 2018 for example - but things went somewhat awry already by then:





The playerbase is there, but it's difficult for them to grow if there's not much confidence in the game from outside the playerbase. I do believe that FP6 is Nintendo's way to try and push the reset button on ARMS and start fresh (it sold pretty well but tapered off hard, leaving the small competitive scene). If anything, ARMS could do well - I just think it could use some changes. Expanded modes or whatever.

I'm not sure what that means in reply to my comment. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite's playerbase crashed and burnt too but that doesn't make it not a fighting game either.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Just the arcade game, but there could be a mindset that they have no interest in promoting a character whose most notable game to re-release is one they're stuck paying royalties for. Plus they might just be playing it safe in regards to use of the character for various games just in case. That's just speculation, but it does seem telling that her appearances in Pac-Man marketing have noticeably fallen the past 15 years.

So basically, the only way Ms. PAC-MAN is coming back is if they try and bring back PAC-MAN World?

Namco! Get to it! The PAC-MAN series needs to be more than just a bunch of arcade re-releases!

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

Well I wasn't a part of Super Smash Bros. Brawl's hype cycle, and the rest of these characters are just ok in my opinion, so...All of them?

To be honest, I think Piranha Plant got a better reaction out of me than these others, though I think my best reaction was for PAC-MAN because I didn't get invested in the speculation cycle until after Mega Man was revealed, and PAC-MAN's timing could not have been more impeccable for me.

 

[SKX31]

I'm not sure what that means in reply to my comment. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite's playerbase crashed and burnt too but that doesn't make it not a fighting game either.

I had the percieved limitations and the comparision with Melee in mind (which competitive scene also started small, but became long lasting because there was confidence in the game). I'm not meaning that as a burn towards ARMS - ARMS can do well, people didn't feel that confident in it since it was seen as limited (not that ARMS is limited - the competitive scene shows it's far from - but perception = / = reality).

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

for me. Easily.

(Though I actually prefer where is now. Permanent limit break and up-airs that lasted forever are two things I'm glad to see nerfed.)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

For me it was definitelywith bothandcoming an close second.

 

[4ZURE]

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

Obviously Crash when he inevitably gets in...Please

 

[Hadokeyblade]

What do you guys consider to be the most hypest character reveal?

If I had to guess it'd come down toand

Guess it came down to/or

Sonic was hype because he was like the only Brawl character with a proper trailer. I will never forget the level of excitement my 10 year old self had when he was revealed back in 07. It was the same feeling I had with Megaman at Smash 4's reveal and Joker at the game awards, those characters resonated with me more than anyone else.

 

[cool6012]

Punch-Out is a Sports game with puzzle elements as the core idea behind the gameplay. The type of sports game it is, boxing, makes it reasonable to call it a fighting game too.

It's not reasonable to call Punch-Out a fighting game at all. Sure you do LITERALLY fight, but in the context of video games the genre "fighting" means something completely different from Punch-Out. You would never reccomend it to someone looking to get into fighting games.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

As far as Ms. Pac-Man, the situation with her is a bit of legal nightmare as this video details:

Basically after a 2006 lawsuit, certain releases of the original Ms. Pac-Man arcade game meant Bandai-Namco had to pay royalties to GCC, the original developers of the game. This has led to a gradual de-emphasis of the character in various marketing and media, to the point where various international stores/mobile games have an unrelated female Pac character in her place. It got even more muddled when Bandi-Namco sued ATGames, most famous for releasing dubious plug and play consoles, for making an unauthorized Ms. Pac-Man cabinet. To make matters worse, ATGames ended up buying those aforementioned royalty rights from GCC, meaning Bando-Namco, (for specific Ms. Pac-Man re-releases) has to give royalties to a company they not terribly inclined to work with given ATGames' shenanigans.

So, about those legal disputes.....

Something just came out today.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So, about those legal disputes.....

Something just came out today.

Is this something that Namco did?

 

[Jomosensual]

Claiming ARMS isn’t an actual fighting game but a tech demo is the dumbest argument I’ve read since someone argued that Ice Climber is more popular than SNK games.

It's about as dumb as the time someone said Pacman was a literal who