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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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GoodGrief741

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A really huge deal in comparison to what? That means nothing in a vacuum. We don’t even have an fps rep if you think every genre should have a rep. One of the biggest genres in gaming. Bullet hell are one of the smallest. It’s a niche fan base even in japan.
I mean, I think even if the genre isn't the biggest ever, Smash is aiming to be a sort of museum of all gaming, and being the biggest and most influential bullet hell franchise is no small feat. Sure, big fish in small pond, but it's something worth considering.

Of course if you compare the bullet hell to the FPS you'll come up short, but that's not a fair comparison. While the bullet hell genre has a niche audience, that's not the same as obscure, people can know about something without being a consumer of it.
 

KatKit

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Ok, I know next to nothing about kos-mo. Can a fan of the character please tell me why she would be picked over any other character in the Xeno series, especially over Elma or Rex? From what I get shes a side character that has appeared in a lot of the Xeno games, but is mostly either a side character or cameo. Why her?
She isn't a side character, she's the face of the franchise. They even put her front and center on their 20th Anniversary Commemorative Website. (Fun fact: Naughty Dog couldn't even put Crash Bandicoot on their anniversary celebration because of Activision. I mentioned this to give you an idea of how close and interchangeable she is with both companies involved.)

Out of any Xeno character, including Shulk, KOS-MOS is used in crossovers/promotional materials the most. Both Bandai Namco and Monolith Soft love her, and - design, personality, plot, or some combination of all of the above - she's the inspiration for many of the characters we know and love today like Fiora and Elma.

Interestingly enough, most of her cameos are implied as canon appearances because of interdimensional travel shenanigans. Thus, she's lived on past her initial PS2 appearances.

Does she have some badass moveset potential or something im not seeing?
She is a self-classified annihilation weapon, so her moveset potential is totally bonkers. She has handguns, lasers, hammers, bows, drills, energy wings, gatling guns, shoulder mounted rail cannons, etc. Not only can she morph parts of her body into them because of nanomachines, but she can also summon them from literal hammerspace, and then have more fitted on to her. There's a reason people buy her figurines like hotcakes (just look at all of those accessories! That's not even half of it) because she's a one woman army. It's easier to show than tell, so take a look yourself:


 
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Droodle

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If we can get faces such as Ridley, Little Mac, and Banjo, Japan should get it's share of characters more favored over there. It's only fair, as long as they're not exclusive to that country or something.
Honestly speaking if I'm going to compare Touhou to any series already represented in Smash, it would be Banjo-Kazooie. A series that was popular in the West, but had a cult following in Japan. Touhou on the other hand has a cult following in the West, but it is definitely a big thing in Japan.
 

yeet123

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Honestly speaking if I'm going to compare Touhou to any series already represented in Smash, it would be Banjo-Kazooie. A series that was popular in the West, but had a cult following in Japan. Touhou on the other hand has a cult following in the West, but it is definitely a big thing in Japan.
Yall give Banjo-Kazooie no credit. Ppl gotta understand: BK are NINTENDO CHARACTERS. BK's worlds are tied to DK's, Nintendo promo'd them like any other 1st party icon, they were designed to fit in w/ Mario and the crew. I dont think theres any 3rd/4th party characters *not in smash yet* that is/are as intertwined with Nintendo as BK.



 
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Droodle

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Yall give Banjo-Kazooie no credit. Ppl gotta understand: BK are NINTENDO CHARACTERS. BK's worlds are tied to DK's, Nintendo promo'd them like any other 1st party icon, they were designed to fit in w/ Mario and the crew. I dont think theres any 3rd/4th party characters *not in smash yet* that is/are as intertwined with Nintendo as BK.



Well now that you mention it, there is one character that is tied to Nintendo in the same way as Banjo was before.

kos-mos.jpg
 

PhantomShab

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Why do people pretend that Japan just somehow didn't get all of Rare's games on their Nintendo 64s like everywhere else did?
 
D

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Why do people pretend that Japan just somehow didn't get all of Rare's games on their Nintendo 64s like everywhere else did?
It's not like Dragon Quest games weren't localized to western audiences either. However, this doesn't stop the cultural gap.
 

Droodle

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Nah.

When Xeno shares its world w/ Zelda or Fire Emblem, then we can talk
>It doesn't count because I don't want it to.

Xenoblade is 100% Nintendo, just as much as Mario/DK/Metroid/Zelda; in fact it is more Nintendo then Fire Emblem because unlike Intelligent Sytems, Monolith-Soft is owned entirely by Nintendo at this point.
 
D

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Yes.
Us dumb dirty Westerners don't know anything about gaming except pew pew shooty shooty.
That's honestly a shame for the Smash community to bear. If we're gonna become a celebration of gaming, we need to open our doors to franchises we never heard of. Maybe one can find their new favorite video game with that in mind. It's sad to see the Smash community being too close-minded.

I for one am willing to know more about franchises that are added to Smash that I have never heard of before.
 

perfectchaos83

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Yes.
Us dumb dirty Westerners don't know anything about gaming except pew pew shooty shooty.
While I'm not going to pretend I know Japan's Smash fanbase (I really don't), but the reactions this side of the fanbase has given to Joker, Hero and Terry does paint that picture. At the very least in terms of the core that speculate the roster. Casuals don't seem to give all that much of a ****.
 
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yeet123

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>It doesn't count because I don't want it to.

Xenoblade is 100% Nintendo, just as much as Mario/DK/Metroid/Zelda; in fact it is more Nintendo then Fire Emblem because unlike Intelligent Sytems, Monolith-Soft is owned entirely by Nintendo at this point.
You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not hating on your best girl.

I am saying that a 3rd party game made for playstation systems is not as intertwined in Nintendo as a second party game w/ direct ties to 1st party nintendo IP (DK)

Also Xenosaga****** which is what were discussing here, is not Nintendo.
 
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D

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While I'm not going to pretend I don't know Japan's Smash fanbase (I really don't), but the reactions this side of the fanbase has given to Joker, Hero and Terry does paint that picture. At the very least in terms of the core that speculate the roster. Casuals don't seem to give all that much of a ****.
They're called casuals for a reason, y'know.
 

NoBS

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Yes there are many important characters, and there are also limited slots. In the end, not every important character will make it in.

There are dozens of more important characters than Joker, Banjo, and Terry. Banjo got in because the fans wanted him in; Joker because Sakurai considers Persona 5, one of his favorite games, and Terry because Sakurai likes the SNK games.

So in short, Sakurai is going to add in whoever he wants to add as long as the characters are somewhat recognizable. Reimu and KOS-MOS are definitely somewhat recognizable, so Sakurai can add them if he wants to.

Inb4 Reimu and KOS-MOS are obscure in the West. Yes they are, but so what? They are definitely both iconic in their own way, especially in Japan.
Nah he doesn’t add whoever he wants. Let’s put it plain and simple for the whole world to see.


There are three reasons a character makes it into smash.

1) it’s a dear franchise/creator/character to sakurai.

2) it has massive fan request.

3) it’s advertisement for a game/character for Nintendo or a collaborating company with Nintendo which only generally happens because they want to advertise that series for the future.

All characters are essentially decided be these 3 criteria, then there are subdivisions in this criteria like does the company have a rep? And so forth.


Reimu isn’t massively fan requested, she doesn’t qualify there, there is no relation to Nintendo at all, and a big part of her popularity is just grass roots fan made stuff, there isn’t much reason for Nintendo to pick her on this criteria.


You are relying solely on the first option, to say maybe sakurai holds something dear about her series? Is there anything about her from sakurai? I asked for evidence that bullet hell is even one of his favorite genre and you ignored me. That isn’t even strong evidence that he likes touhou anyways. You guys are reaching hard.


Also you’re speaking to someone who probably knows more about Japanese culture than you. Touhou is still niche there. Kosmos isn’t popular there either.
 

Ben Holt

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While I'm not going to pretend I don't know Japan's Smash fanbase (I really don't), but the reactions this side of the fanbase has given to Joker, Hero and Terry does paint that picture. At the very least in terms of the core that speculate the roster. Casuals don't seem to give all that much of a ****.
The last time I, an ignorant Westerner, didn't recognize a character was during Melee.
I was 7.
 

Will

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Yes.
Us dumb dirty Westerners don't know anything about gaming except pew pew shooty shooty.
That's not quite the ignorant I'm going for but keep trying, you'll get there eventually :4pacman:
 

TheTuninator

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Why do people pretend that Japan just somehow didn't get all of Rare's games on their Nintendo 64s like everywhere else did?
Japan also got Punch-Out, but I don't think there's any doubt that Mac's inclusion was overwhelmingly aimed at the Western fanbase.
 
D

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The last time I, an ignorant Westerner, didn't recognize a character was during Melee.
I was 7.
Y'know, all this talk about ignorant Westerners makes me proud that I'm a Filipino..

all your country knows is how to play DotA, LoL, CSGO, Mobile Legends...

Great, but oh well...
 

Will

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Why do people pretend that Japan just somehow didn't get all of Rare's games on their Nintendo 64s like everywhere else did?
It isn't about "did they get released there", it's "is the demand of this character notably different between different sides of the hemisphere".

K. Rool? Relatively even.
Hero? Relatively east.
Ridley? Relatively west.

That type of stuff.
 

Ben Holt

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Japan also got Punch-Out, but I don't think there's any doubt that Mac's inclusion was overwhelmingly aimed at the Western fanbase.
Japan is not at all overlooked by the Smash team.
If anything, they have been given preferential treatment.
In Melee, they got Fire Emblem characters that never even came to the West.
And before Brawl, a Japan-only survey was given as to whom they wanted for the next Smash (Brawl). The Brawl roster was almost entirely based on that results of that survey.
Terry was evidently one popular Latin American choice, so they got a bone thrown their way.
So if anything, it's a good thing that the West is getting its turn to pick characters.
 

NoBS

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You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not hating on your best girl.

I am saying that a 3rd party game made for playstation systems is not as intertwined in Nintendo as a second party game w/ direct ties to 1st party nintendo IP (DK)

Also Xenosaga****** which is what were discussing here, is not Nintendo.

People are delusional here. Banjo was very requested in japan and a lot of people were saying they were crying they were so happy on sakurais twitter in Japanese. People here have no clue what Japanese people like.
 

PsychoJosh

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While I'm not going to pretend I don't know Japan's Smash fanbase (I really don't), but the reactions this side of the fanbase has given to Joker, Hero and Terry does paint that picture. At the very least in terms of the core that speculate the roster. Casuals don't seem to give all that much of a ****.
That's not quite the ignorant I'm going for but keep trying, you'll get there eventually :4pacman:
Having different cultural tastes does not mean "ignorant". FPS games are popular in the west, RPGs are popular in the east. I wouldnt chastise Japan for not knowing who Master Chief is. Just because you're mad those games dont appeal to our tastes doesnt mean you should sweep westerners all under the rug as FILTHY IGNORAMUS GAIJINS. Those games generally just dont appeal to westerners and that's all. Some westerners might be curious enough to check it out but with fanboys like you calling them ignorant if they don't, it's no wonder that genre stays niche here.
 
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D

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Japan is not at all overlooked by the Smash team.
If anything, they have been given preferential treatment.
In Melee, they got Fire Emblem characters that never even came to the West.
And before Brawl, a Japan-only survey was given as to whom they wanted for the next Smash (Brawl). The Brawl roster was almost entirely based on that results of that survey.
Terry was evidently one popular Latin American choice, so they got a bone thrown their way.
So if anything, it's a good thing that the West is getting its turn to pick characters.
Taking turns is good, that's what they say.

Give chance to others, that's what they say.
 

perfectchaos83

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Reimu isn’t massively fan requested, she doesn’t qualify there, there is no relation to Nintendo at all, and a big part of her popularity is just grass roots fan made stuff, there isn’t much reason for Nintendo to pick her on this criteria.
What if I told you Nintendo went out of it's way to obtain a license for Touhou music so that Daigasso Band Brothers players could upload Touhou music for their content? Then Sold that fan-made music at Touhou's bi-annual convention?

The last time I, an ignorant Westerner, didn't recognize a character was during Melee.
I was 7.
Not really the point I was making.

They're called casuals for a reason, y'know.
I know, it's what I'm trying to convey. If they don't know a character, they won't go "**** this character" like those that speculate the roster tend to do.
 

Ben Holt

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Having different cultural tastes does not mean "ignorant". FPS games are popular in the west, RPGs are popular in the east. I wouldnt chastise Japan for not knowing who Master Chief is. Just because you're mad those games dont appeal to our tastes doesnt mean you should sweep them all under the rug as FILTHY IGNORAMUS GAIJINS. Those games generally just dont appeal to westerners and that's all. Some westerners might be curious enough to check it out but with fanboys like you calling them ignorant if they don't, it's no wonder that genre stays niche.
Actually, I saw a post in a Japanese forum about Doom Slayer, and they all called him a Halo ripoff. Apparently, PC gaming is still relevant in Japan, so that's where they play Halo instead of XBox.
 

TheTuninator

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Japan is not at all overlooked by the Smash team.
If anything, they have been given preferential treatment.
In Melee, they got Fire Emblem characters that never even came to the West.
And before Brawl, a Japan-only survey was given as to whom they wanted for the next Smash (Brawl). The Brawl roster was almost entirely based on that results of that survey.
Terry was evidently one popular Latin American choice, so they got a bone thrown their way.
So if anything, it's a good thing that the West is getting its turn to pick characters.
I agree! I don't think I've ever said that Japan is overlooked in any way. I simply find it interesting how the pendulum has swung so far back towards the West with SSB4 and SSBU.
 
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Actually, I saw a post in a Japanese forum about Doom Slayer, and they all called him a Halo ripoff. Apparently, PC gaming is still relevant in Japan, so that's where they play Halo instead of XBox.
IF you all are gonna interpret Doom Slayer as the "Hoes Mad" of Japan, I'm just gonna roll my eyes.
 

GoodGrief741

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I think a lot of people overly simplify things, to the point where anything that's more popular in one region than another becomes obscure in the latter.

No folks, Dragon Quest isn't obscure in the West, neither is King of Fighters, nor Touhou. Banjo-Kazooie isn't obscure in Japan either, neither is Punch-Out and neither is Castlevania.

Learn that life has nuances, learn to defend or attack positions based on those. I'm ****ing tired of hearing "X is obscure", "No, it's huge in Y!". If a series is actually obscure everywhere in the world that's a problem. If a series is obscure everywhere in the world except for one country, that's a problem. Otherwise, maybe consider that lowered chances are a thing.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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Yall give Banjo-Kazooie no credit. Ppl gotta understand: BK are NINTENDO CHARACTERS. BK's worlds are tied to DK's, Nintendo promo'd them like any other 1st party icon, they were designed to fit in w/ Mario and the crew. I dont think theres any 3rd/4th party characters *not in smash yet* that is/are as intertwined with Nintendo as BK.



Yeah, he was huge back when he was on 64 but that's where the term "used to be" comes into play. Now? He may still be a pretty big deal to all of us N64 Boomers here in the West but I'm sure he had a far smaller following in Japan.

That's not to undermine that Banjo was a huge deal for Nintendo but it's safe to say that wasn't the reason he got in. He got in due to fan demand and not much more.
 

Will

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Having different cultural tastes does not mean "ignorant".
Still not my definition of ignorant. Having your own tastes is a respectable and valid opinion to hold. I don't believe anyone is arguing otherwise.

My definition of ignorance in this case is just disallowing the idea of a character's inclusion based off of an imaginary ratio of Western-loved and Eastern-loved not being totally equal because they already got X, why should we get Y?
 

PsychoJosh

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Actually, I saw a post in a Japanese forum about Doom Slayer, and they all called him a Halo ripoff.
See now that would qualify as an ignorant statement. I mean I love Halo and would prefer Chief over Doomslayer in Smash if I had to pick one, but saying things that are just blatantly wrong counts as ignorance.
 

Droodle

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You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not hating on your best girl.

I am saying that a 3rd party game made for playstation systems is not as intertwined in Nintendo as a second party game w/ direct ties to 1st party nintendo IP (DK)

Also Xenosaga****** which is what were discussing here, is not Nintendo.
In a lot of ways KOS-MOS is linked to Nintendo in the opposite way compared to Banjo Kazooie.

Banjo-Kazooie started out as a 2nd party series that was linked to the Donkey Kong universe due to Rare's great relationship with Nintendo. When Rare was bought by Microsoft, B-K went along with them. However, it's pretty clear that most of modern Rare isn't really interested in Banjo.

Xenosaga is a 3rd party series on Playstation systems. Nintendo bought out Monolith-Soft; however, unlike with Rare, Monolith-Soft did not bring along the Xenosaga IP along with them. It's pretty clear that both Namco and Monolith-Soft have a great relationship with each other, and with KOS-MOS. Xenoblade 2 makes it clear that Xenosaga occurs in the larger Xenoblade multiverse, and KOS-MOS herself can be considered an optional party member.

So while KOS-MOS may certainly not have started out as a character that is as intertwined to Nintendo as B-K was; She is definitely intertwined with Nintendo now; and while Banjo definitely was more intertwined with Nintendo during his younger years, he definitely isn't now (unless you count Smash).
 
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