Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[OrpheusTelos]

Random question, why do people think Edelgard would get in over Byleth? It makes no sense to me. Byleth is the character you play as. Not Edelgard.

I think it was because she was one of the first named characters shown off and people liked how she used an axe. I don't even know if we knew Byleth's name at that point, so people just kinda latched on to Edelgard and she just kinda stuck from there. Personally, Byleth has enough cool things going for them like the whip sword and time stuff that could make for an interesting moveset. I'm in the minority of people who wouldn't mind a Three Houses character just because of how great that game is. It's cast is super good and I would love to see them represented sometime in the future

 

[Deleted member]

What faith did I bring this up in? you don't know me.

And I can't know what people championing more women on the pass do or do not want, I can only refer to what I'm seeing being discussed. And what I'm seeing, is a sentiment that if the fighter pass contains no women, then it is a failure of represenation. I've seen no similar standard been put forward that there must be a Black character on the pass, and from what I've seen I don't think there would be. I think if the next two fighters were Tracer and Lara Croft, we'd hear crickets about the fighter pass failing on representation.

From the looks of it, saying that it lacks female representation is probably saying the same as getting no Black representation.

You do have a point..

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What about a character like the Prince of Persia?

Isn't The Prince of Persia a movie character?

And at what point does our value for representation become tokenizing? IMO: Elma...

That's kinda selling her short in my opinion. Even disregarding her aesthetic design she is a really cool character that stands out among the other 18 playable characters because she gets the time she needs to be fleshed out in the main story.

In my opinion, Elma's implementation wouldn't be complete without Lin and Cross at her side anyway since team composition is a big part of Xenoblade Chronicles X's combat (unless you powergame I guess).

 

[Sari]

We kinda think we have an idea.
Everyone's been saying Tracer, but we kinda want Chell, from Portal.
Just a thought...

If anything I think Portal would be better off represented as a stage.

Random question, why do people think Edelgard would get in over Byleth? It makes no sense to me. Byleth is the character you play as. Not Edelgard.

She is incredibly popular (probably even more so than Byleth) not to mention we've had cases of characters getting in over the true main characters of their games (Robin and Lucina getting in over Chrom, Lucario over any of the Gen IV starters).

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't The Prince of Persia a movie character

Nope. Video Game. The Jake Gylenhaal movie just popularized it.

 

[YezenIRl]

Isn't The Prince of Persia a movie character?

The game came first actually lol. Unless there is some 80s movie I don't know about.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

What faith did I bring this up in? you don't know me.

And I can't know what people championing more women on the pass do or do not want, I can only refer to what I'm seeing being discussed. And what I'm seeing, is a sentiment that if the fighter pass contains no women, then it is a failure of represenation. I've seen no similar standard been put forward that there must be a Black character on the pass, and from what I've seen I don't think there would be. I think if the next two fighters were Tracer and Lara Croft, we'd hear crickets about the fighter pass failing on representation.

From the looks of it, saying that it lacks female representation is probably saying the same as getting no Black representation.

You do have a point..

The difference is that black representation would have to strictly come from humans/humanoids, whereas female representation can come from literally anything: humans, animals, robots, aliens, monsters, whatever species Ms. Pac-Man is, etc. It's just a matter of pools, especially in a game like Smash Bros where so much of the cast isn't human. You can't really classify non human characters as "black" (well, you could, but that would be extremely offensive in most cases), but you can classify them as female. It's just unfortunate that most of the darker skinned protagonists in gaming are part of the Avatar class, even more so than female characters, which is why I brought up Inkling, Villager, Pokemon Trainer, etc, earlier.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

We kinda think we have an idea.
Everyone's been saying Tracer, but we kinda want Chell, from Portal.
Just a thought...

If they can figure out a way to make a portal moveset work, then I'd love to see Chell. If not, a portal level and Glados boss that insults the players would be dope too.

 

[RandomAce]

If anything I think Portal would be better off represented as a stage.


She is incredibly popular (probably even more so than Byleth) not to mention we've had cases of characters getting in over the true main characters of their games (Robin and Lucina getting in over Chrom, Lucario over any of the Gen IV starters).

I don’t think Lucario really counts considering that the three starters aren’t really main characters.

 

[Opossum]

Random question, why do people think Edelgard would get in over Byleth? It makes no sense to me. Byleth is the character you play as. Not Edelgard.

She's incredibly popular, prominent in the marketing and merchandising (she's getting her own figma, for example), the theme song of the game, Edge of Dawn, is literally about her, and a few other spoilery reasons.

Spoiler

She's incredibly important to the game no matter what route you pick. If you pick the Crimson Flower route she's the main protagonist alongside Byleth. If you pick Verdant Wind, she's a major antagonist. If you pick Azure Moon or Silver Snow, she's the main antagonist. So even in routes that aren't her own, she is a major character.

Add in the fact that she and Byleth are unique in their possession of the Crest of Flames, which is the Three Houses version of the Fire Emblem. To reiterate, only she and Byleth possess this.

Add all of that to the fact that Sakurai has expressed that he wished more heroes used axes instead of swords when talking about Piranha Plant and the fact that Robin was chosen over Chrom despite Chrom being the de facto main character, and Edelgard certainly has a case.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...and the fact that Robin was chosen over Chrom despite Chrom being the de facto main character...

Ok this has been bothering me. Chrom may have the main focus in the first and second story arcs, but Robin is the main character of the overarching story and the entire third act. To be honest I think they both qualify as main characters.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Isn't The Prince of Persia a movie character?

Bruh

 

[Opossum]

Ok this has been bothering me. Chrom may have the main focus in the first and second story arcs, but Robin is the main character of the overarching story and the entire third act. To be honest I think they both qualify as main characters.

Robin takes a backseat to Chrom in all but the final arc after the introductory chapters. Chrom is the main lord because he's the only character that is mandatory for every story chapter. Robin is only force deployed in two chapters once you get access to the Prep Menu, if I remember correctly: the Validar chapter and the Endgame chapter. Intelligent Systems even bills Chrom as the main character over Robin when they list the Lords out. Robin is easily the second most important, don't get me wrong, but I'd absolutely argue Chrom is more important over all.

 

[blackghost]

Random question, why do people think Edelgard would get in over Byleth? It makes no sense to me. Byleth is the character you play as. Not Edelgard.

edelgaurd is the bigger and better character for a variety of reasons. but most of that is spoiler territory.
but a smash character she has a unique aesthetic, unique weapon, and brings a new personality type. she's going to have long term appeal in the FE fanbase which is something roy doesn't even have.
Byleth is fine as a character but like most avatar character can feel lifeless.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Byleth is fine as a character but like most avatar character can feel lifeless.

To be fair, that's intentional in three houses.

 

[TheYungLink]

I haven't played Fire Emblem: Three Houses yet, but after hearing about how much better handled the game was after all the bad things I heard about Fire Emblem Fates, I'm going to pick it up later when I have time.

In the meantime, does Byleth have any interesting moveset potential as a Smash character over the three house leaders (Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude were their names iirc)?

 

[Flyboy]

I haven't played Fire Emblem: Three Houses yet, but after hearing about how much better handled the game was after all the bad things I heard about Fire Emblem Fates, I'm going to pick it up later when I have time.

In the meantime, does Byleth have any interesting moveset potential as a Smash character over the three house leaders (Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude were their names iirc)?

Absolutely. Byleth has the Sword of the Creator, a sword that can also extend into a whip to do ranged damage. She can also use tactics and gambits (special commanding attacks - troops and battalions are big in the game) and can also use magic and special assist buffs and debuffs. She also has the ability to rewind time a set amount of times per battle.

Edelgard would have tactics and gambits as well, but uses heavy weapons and would have a higher focus on commanding armies as she is royalty.

Three Houses really brought so much to the series that a lot would love to see in Smash.

 

[YezenIRl]

The difference is that black representation would have to strictly come from humans/humanoids, whereas female representation can come from literally anything

I think it's possible, and even necessary to look at representation beyond just as a number or ratio game. Could Smash use more female characters? absolutely. But it's also important to think about which female characters, and what they bring to the table in terms of representation. Not just in terms of race or skin color, but also things like body type, profession, or personality.

Sure it would be nice to have Lara Croft, Tracer and Jill Valentine. After all, I like all of those characters and I think they are all big enough for Smash. But at a certain point, you also have to consider how many women in gaming have the same skinny, super model body type. Or how many women in Smash are essentially Princesses. So to me, I think it's not just about adding more women to reach a better ratio, but also about the women they add. Someone like Frisk brings something to the table representation wise that Mai Shiranui or Sophitia do not.

Am I saying I wouldn't want someone like Lara Croft in smash? absolutely not. I'm just saying representation is not just about how many women there are, or whether one is in the fighters pass.

I know that as a man this is not necessarily my place to say what ideal feminist representation is, but I'm sure there are women out there that will agree with me on this one.

 

[SpectreJordan]

i dont think smash is gonna drop a stage called hell. sounds like attention nintendo rather not draw. Also limiting an open-world game is completely different from expanding one with narrow halls as part of its identity.
also yes ive played doom.
personally im not into a gun based character nor do i think the competitive scene would actually like it once the novelty wears off. even killer instinct when they added a halo character choose to go with arbiter OVER master chief becuase there's more to work with.



this so much this. laura croft would fix this. so would chun-li.
some people have stated they would like a nintendo based dlc fighter pack (becuase this one is all gonna be 3rd party) and i think think thats the only way we would see elma or edelgaurd get in.

You clearly haven’t played the new Doom as it features lots of “arenas” where you fight an onslaught of enemies.

 

[tenworldsguy]

Ive been wanting Pikmin 4 since it was "almost done" in 2015. A new DKC would be great, as well as either MK9 or MK8 Expansion packs. I dont expect MP4 to get a trailer, but at least an update saying "Hey, Retros hard at work!" Or something. Maybe a sneak peak at the next 3D Mario too. Were probably due for another Kirby game soon too, it has been a while since Star Allies.

I've been wanting Pik4 since 3 was done! Miyamoto should have done us all a favor and not dropped that vague tease, we've been aching ever since...

We kinda think we have an idea.
Everyone's been saying Tracer, but we kinda want Chell, from Portal.
Just a thought...

Chell would be a really unique character (token diversity aside, because apparently that matters in smash) as a Fighter. Her specials would probably be all or mostly nondamaging, but she would be able to pull some really cool stuff in the right hands- think Brawl Olimar in that brick-wall learning curve and weird specials.

Random question, why do people think Edelgard would get in over Byleth? It makes no sense to me. Byleth is the character you play as. Not Edelgard.

Spoiler: 3H spoilers

not only would Byleth be yet another FE MC but Edelgard would be the first unique female (Wendy is skin, DS is echo) and first FE villian by technicality

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I heard Vergeben and sabi have joined the action on this ryu claim

They both think it’s not gonna happen but they just hopped in and this is probably a opinion for now

 

[OrpheusTelos]

I think it's possible, and even necessary to look at representation beyond just as a number or ratio game. Could Smash use more female characters? absolutely. But it's also important to think about which female characters, and what they bring to the table in terms of representation. Not just in terms of race or skin color, but also things like body type, profession, or personality.

Sure it would be nice to have Lara Croft, Tracer and Jill Valentine. After all, I like all of those characters and I think they are all big enough for Smash. But at a certain point, you also have to consider how many women in gaming have the same skinny, super model body type. Or how many women in Smash are essentially Princesses. So to me, I think it's not just about adding more women to reach a better ratio, but also about the women they add. Someone like Frisk brings something to the table representation wise that Mai Shiranui or Sophitia do not.

Am I saying I wouldn't want someone like Lara Croft in smash? absolutely not. I'm just saying representation is not just about how many women there are, or whether one is in the fighters pass.

I know that as a man this is not necessarily my place to say what ideal feminist representation is, but I'm sure there are women out there that will agree with me on this one.

Not to be "that person," but I really wouldn't count Frisk as a female character because they really don't have a canon gender. They're basically in the same camp as most of the Pokemon where their gender mostly depends on personal headcanons and whatnot. Otherwise I agree with you, it's just that there's not a ton of notable female video game characters that don't fit into those categories. There's a lot that could be said about this being part of a bigger problem of how women are portrayed in video games as a whole, but I won't open that can of worms here

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The men in Smash are generally all fit, whether they be merely thin or body builders. The only exception is Wario, and his physique is somewhat played as a joke. (Other exceptions might be children or cartoony characters, but I don't count them.) I don't think this is a productive line of debate.

 

[YezenIRl]

Not to be "that person," but I really wouldn't count Frisk as a female character because they really don't have a canon gender. They're basically in the same camp as most of the Pokemon where their gender mostly depends on personal headcanons and whatnot. Otherwise I agree with you, it's just that there's not a ton of notable female video game characters that don't fit into those categories. There's a lot that could be said about this being part of a bigger problem of how women are portrayed in video games as a whole, but I won't open that can of worms here

That's fair, though I think that canon of worms is central to the representation debate, in games and outside of games even.

I didn't know that about Frisk, I had always assumed that Frisk was canon female, since that's all I've ever seen them depicted as. Though knowing that, that sort of gender non conforming sort of character might be another area of representation Nintendo hasn't even considered, but would probably be positive. Or they could just depict her as a girl. Depends on Toby Fox hypothetically I guess.

Either way, I was just trying to point out that the whole representation thing isn't just about the number of characters of a certain demographic.

The men in Smash are generally all fit, whether they be merely thin or body builders. The only exception is Wario, and his physique is somewhat played as a joke. (Other exceptions might be children or cartoony characters, but I don't count them.) I don't think this is a productive line of debate.

Well this depends where you draw the line of "cartoony" but there are different kinds of "fit" for men though. Link is fit, and Ganondorf is fit, and Ryu is fit, Captain Falcon is fit, and Megaman is fit. Still different body types. Then there are Mario, Luigi, who are arguably fit too, but also have different shapes. This kind of diversity of build isn't as much a thing for the women of Smash.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Then there are Mario, Luigi, who are arguably fit too, but also have different shapes.

Mario and Luigi have very weird bodies if you try to make them real.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The only exception is Wario, and his physique is somewhat played as a joke. (Other exceptions might be children or cartoony characters, but I don't count them.)

I don't think I want to see a non-cartoony version of Wario.

Though knowing that, that sort of gender non conforming sort of character might be another area of representation Nintendo hasn't even considered...

Link was originally intended to be this way, but he became more masculine in the jump to 3D. His appearance does sometimes have subtle things that are usually given to females like earrings (Twilight Princess) and the ponytails (Breath of the Wild).

...and Megaman is fit.

Can a robot be considered fit?

 

[zferolie]

I heard Vergeben and sabi have joined the action on this ryu claim

They both think it’s not gonna happen but they just hopped in and this is probably a opinion for now

I was looking that up just now. That is interesting. So verge and sabi both havent heard this from their sources, but they arent saying its fake yet, until they can confirm huh?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Megaman is fit.

Can a robot be considered fit?

Megaman is a child.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Megaman is a child.

Mega Man is a robot child.

EDIT: Mega Man is a robot created by Dr. Light whose original purpose was to help around the lab. After Dr. Wily attacks he volunteers to be upgraded to become a "Super Fighting Robot" in order to stop him. In the Boxing Ring stage, his alias is Blue Metal Hero. While he does look like a kid in a costume, this isn't actually the case. Mega Man Volnut and Geo are the only iterations of Mega Man that are human.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

That's fair, though I think that canon of worms is central to the representation debate, in games and outside of games even.

I didn't know that about Frisk, I had always assumed that Frisk was canon female, since that's all I've ever seen them depicted as. Though knowing that, that sort of gender non conforming sort of character might be another area of representation Nintendo hasn't even considered, but would probably be positive. Or they could just depict her as a girl. Depends on Toby Fox hypothetically I guess.

Either way, I was just trying to point out that the whole representation thing isn't just about the number of characters of a certain demographic.

I definitely think if it were up to Toby Fox, he'd definitely want to keep Frisk's gender ambiguous because that's how they're portrayed in the game and promotional material. Nintendo's localization team has used they/them pronouns when referring to characters in Fire Emblem: Three Houses, so I don't think Frisk would be that much of a problem. The only place I could see that being an issue is localization for languages that are heavily gendered, but I'm sure those localization teams will just label them as male or female and call it a day.

Mario and Luigi have very weird bodies if you try to make them real.

Sorry, but this is literally the only thing I could think of when you said that is that "this will be graphics in 2013" meme

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

From Vergeben:

I actually haven't commented on this & haven't talked to Sabi about IAmShifty's video claims yet to be honest with you.
I am currently looking into it on my side though. Maybe she claimed I did because they specifically heard who the 4th character is and assumed I knew too? I don't know. That is kind of interesting though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The only place I could see that being an issue is localization for languages that are heavily gendered, but I'm sure those localization teams will just label them as male or female and call it a day.

Characters are really only mentioned in the third person during tips and movelists. They could probably just refer to the character by name in place of pronouns.

EDIT: That is unless there are lanugages in which verbs and such are specific to the gender of the person who carried out the action. I can't fathom why that'd be necessary but it's not impossible.

 

[zferolie]

From Vergeben:

So we are basically back where we started, no idea who is actually coming next

 

[Vycoul]

Jesus, I had to double check if I was on tumblr or Smashboards. Can we, you know, speculate about potential characters that could be DLC rather than endlessly bicker about increasingly narrow aspects of people to "represent"?

Sabi claiming to have spoken with Vergeben, but Vergeben himself saying that he didn't speak to her is a pretty interesting development. I wonder what's going on there?
And he seems pretty much neutral about Shifty's leak.

Speaking of Shifty, I think his leak is most likely true. He didn't get anything wrong, and he had info on the biggest curve-ball character ever.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Maybe Vergeben have heard other name than Hayabusa? I mean, he did know that the next fighter isn't a "female fighter in a mecha", so he must have heard something. So if Vergeben have heard something that isn't Hayabusa, but some other leak have heard Hayabusa, someone must be wrong on one side. I guess we will se how that will develop.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Characters are really only mentioned in the third person during tips and movelists. They could probably just refer to the character by name in place of pronouns.

EDIT: That is unless there are lanugages in which verbs and such are specific to the gender of the person who carried out the action. I can't fathom why that'd be necessary but it's not impossible.

I dunno about verbs being specific to gender, but there's definitely languages where being gender neutral for individuals is not really a thing.

Jesus, I had to double check if I was on tumblr or Smashboards. Can we, you know, speculate about potential characters that could be DLC rather than endlessly bicker about increasingly narrow aspects of people to "represent"?

Sabi claiming to have spoken with Vergeben, but Vergeben himself saying that he didn't speak to her is a pretty interesting development. I wonder what's going on there?
And he seems pretty much neutral about Shifty's leak.

Speaking of Shifty, I think his leak is most likely true. He didn't get anything wrong, and he had info on the biggest curve-ball character ever.

What I find really weird (besides Sabi putting words in Vergeben's mouth) is that Sabi's still talking about this **** after the C&D. Maybe she's saying stuff Vergeben 'said' but it's actually her speaking?

 

[ProfPeanut]

Credible leakers having conflicting information would make for some very interesting times until the next reveal.

I'll say this about the gender ratios: Smash can't really do anything about it. It picks based on games first and foremost, which isn't something that can be fairly judged based on whether the main character is a man or a woman. We can't do anything about the fact that the games of the frontrunning candidates mostly come from an older time when people weren't nearly concerned enough about representation.

Contemporary games are where one ought to expect proper representation, something that I think the current environment accomplishes fairly well anyway. While pursuing the ideal is a fine goal, it's not something that Smash should be forced to prioritize.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

I dunno about verbs being specific to gender, but there's definitely languages where being gender neutral for individuals is not really a thing.

What I find really weird (besides Sabi putting words in Vergeben's mouth) is that Sabi's still talking about this **** after the C&D. Maybe she's saying stuff Vergeben 'said' but it's actually her speaking?

In my opinion it's because Sabi is a liar. Getting a C&D from Nintendo right before the big Nintendo E3 direct? How convenient. The fact that she made a humongous deal about how they could end her and she has to stop leaking Nintendo content indefinitely, she still continues to talk about Nintendo content.

A cease and desist means shut your mouth. Dancing around the subject and saying things like "I can only comment on rumors/speculation" sounds like a load of ****.

 

[Deleted member]

So the fourth character is still anonymous then.

Guess I'll just pray somehow.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So the fourth character is still anonymous then.

Guess I'll just pray somehow.

I don't see how we're back to square one. We had a leak saying it's A, a person saying another person said it's not A, then said person disproving the second statement. We still have the first one standing.