Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Flik]

Why the discussion about having two Ryus? Hayabusa should be just Hayabusa, I thought it was a no brainer

 

[DarthEnderX]

You can argue the Koei Tecmo audience, but DoA is more or less their flagship title at the moment where Kasumi makes more sense.

Except, unlike Kasumi, Ryu represents DoA AND classic Nintendo.

Also, Koei Tecmo's flagship title will always be Dynasty Warriors.

 

[StormC]

But I do think that people applying identity politics to the fighter pass are being a little bit hypocritical/self centered/white centric. After all, there is all this uproar over "what if they do a fighter pass and none of them are female? that is unfair for gender equality." And yet Smash has arguably 1 Black character. Arguably. Heck, Smash is a Japanese game, yet how many characters can you honestly say are asian? as a guy who has no interest in Ryu, does Ryu Hayabusa not get representation credit for being a Japanese guy? Does represenation only count in reference to white people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Heres my thoughts on the leak, sorry for relaying the same information but i think it helps shed some light on why I feel 50/50 on this.

• August 28th, 2018 - Claims Incineroar, Ken and Isabelle will be revealed, Rathalos, Dracula and Marx being bosses in Spirits, and the next reveal will be Isabelle
• September 13th, 2018 - Isabelle was revealed to be the next character in Smash
• October 31st, 2018 - Mentions Piranha Plant is in a pot, uses spiked balls, poison and fire as it's attacks, which no leaker (to my knowledge, not even noatesty did this despite having access to the character) has mentioned.
• November 1st, 2018- revealed Incineroar and Ken, and Piranha Plant as the first DLC character
• August 30th, 2019 - claims the next fighter will be Ryu Hayabusa

It is quite possible that iamshifty has insider info, the Piranha Plant leak makes me quite suspicious. It is most common for leaks to occur shortly before events. Loz18 did leak quite a bit of Ultimate’s initial reveal, and there are other cases such as Sabi leaking the DLC announcement for Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. With recent talk of a September Direct coming up, it could be the same for why Ryu Hayabusa is being talked about again.

While I have my doubts about this, it is also very suspicious that Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa constantly pop up in leaks. Of course it was sparked by the 5ch leak that has been debunked, but the inclusion of both is very unusual, at least in my opinion. It is possible that similarly to Erdrick and Banjo, they constantly pop up because of murmur but no leaker is 100% certain about their inclusions.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Hayabusa represents more than just a franchise. He's THE Video Game Ninja. Has been since the NES.

 

[Deleted member]

You can argue the Koei Tecmo audience, but DoA is more or less their flagship title at the moment where Kasumi makes more sense.

I'd say the Warriors franchise is Koei-Tecmo's flagship title over Ninja Gaiden and DoA and would make a lot more sense to put a Musou character in Smash than Kasumi and possibly even Hayabusa. The amount of Warriors games they have released speak for themselves, and even all the video game franchises with a Warriors spinoff are in Smash as well. People say Nintendo and Sakurai probably wouldn't even consider adding the franchise to Smash because the characters don't originate from video games, but I don't believe that for a second since it'll be Koei-Tecmo's version of the characters and not some completely original design for Smash.

And while we're on the topic of female characters in Smash, the Musou series does have its fair share of potential female characters for Smash. Wang Yuanji, Gracia, and Naotora Ii happen to be some of the most popular Musou characters in Japan and could potentially bring very unique movesets that a lot of other characters probably won't be able to bring (I mean **** I would hate going up against Yuanji since she'd most likely zone the hell out of me with her throwing knives). Though it's getting memed on a lot and very likely fake, I think it'd be incredibly wild if that 4chan leak was actually real and 1 of them happen to be revealed at TGS.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Heres my thoughts on the leak, sorry for relaying the same information but i think it helps shed some light on why I feel 50/50 on this.

• August 28th, 2018 - Claims Incineroar, Ken and Isabelle will be revealed, Rathalos, Dracula and Marx being bosses in Spirits, and the next reveal will be Isabelle
• September 13th, 2018 - Isabelle was revealed to be the next character in Smash
• October 31st, 2018 - Mentions Piranha Plant is in a pot, uses spiked balls, poison and fire as it's attacks, which no leaker (to my knowledge, not even noatesty did this despite having access to the character) has mentioned.
• November 1st, 2018- revealed Incineroar and Ken, and Piranha Plant as the first DLC character
• August 30th, 2019 - claims the next fighter will be Ryu Hayabusa

It is quite possible that iamshifty has insider info, the Piranha Plant leak makes me quite suspicious. It is most common for leaks to occur shortly before events. Loz18 did leak quite a bit of Ultimate’s initial reveal, and there are other cases such as Sabi leaking the DLC announcement for Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. With recent talk of a September Direct coming up, it could be the same for why Ryu Hayabusa is being talked about again.

While I have my doubts about this, it is also very suspicious that Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa constantly pop up in leaks. Of course it was sparked by the 5ch leak that has been debunked, but the inclusion of both is very unusual, at least in my opinion. It is possible that similarly to Erdrick and Banjo, they constantly pop up because of murmur but no leaker is 100% certain about their inclusions.

If IAmShifty leaked Piranha Plant on October 31st...well, there was a 4chan leak that just claimed Piranha Plant around that day (probably before) and no one paid attention to it until after the fact, and an angry playtester or somebody claimed Piranha Plant earlier somewhere on Reddit (I think it was in September) and he also mentioned the fly swagger assist trophy from Mario Paint alongside other things that were true and revealed in the direct.

edit: oh wait nevermind, I think noatesty was the reddit leaker, and the 4chan leak didn’t mention anything other than plant being in a car (which seems like it could’ve been early development stuff especially since Bowser Jr. stuff was in Plant’s folder), though I guess insiders already knew about Plant anyway.

 

[blackghost]

When the "next character will be female" rumor was going around, I started putting together for myself a list of female characters and out of all of them that felt somewhat plausible the only one that wasn't super interesting in my eyes was Kasumi from Dead or Alive. Even then, a new series is cool in its own way.

As others have said it's not just "female character" but also "character that can appeal to a female audience" like Phoenix Wright or Professor Layton. Either option would be nice and add variety, and I just want more demographic variety in the pass which....doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

I'll appreciate what I get but I'm a human with hopes and wants just like any other.

i know how you feel when i saw that fire emblem three houses had a dark skin lord that was so incredible for me. while three houses is definitely edelgaurds game claudes existence and demeanor being as they are means a lot for people.

 

[yeet123]

It is quite possible that iamshifty has insider info,

According to the dates, it would appear that a Nintendo Direct is incredibly close. Some say this upcoming week...

 

[zferolie]

While a warriors character would be a better rep for TK as a whole, who would be the best pick?

Heres my thoughts on the leak, sorry for relaying the same information but i think it helps shed some light on why I feel 50/50 on this.

• August 28th, 2018 - Claims Incineroar, Ken and Isabelle will be revealed, Rathalos, Dracula and Marx being bosses in Spirits, and the next reveal will be Isabelle
• September 13th, 2018 - Isabelle was revealed to be the next character in Smash
• October 31st, 2018 - Mentions Piranha Plant is in a pot, uses spiked balls, poison and fire as it's attacks, which no leaker (to my knowledge, not even noatesty did this despite having access to the character) has mentioned.
• November 1st, 2018- revealed Incineroar and Ken, and Piranha Plant as the first DLC character
• August 30th, 2019 - claims the next fighter will be Ryu Hayabusa

It is quite possible that iamshifty has insider info, the Piranha Plant leak makes me quite suspicious. It is most common for leaks to occur shortly before events. Loz18 did leak quite a bit of Ultimate’s initial reveal, and there are other cases such as Sabi leaking the DLC announcement for Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. With recent talk of a September Direct coming up, it could be the same for why Ryu Hayabusa is being talked about again.

While I have my doubts about this, it is also very suspicious that Doom Slayer and Ryu Hayabusa constantly pop up in leaks. Of course it was sparked by the 5ch leak that has been debunked, but the inclusion of both is very unusual, at least in my opinion. It is possible that similarly to Erdrick and Banjo, they constantly pop up because of murmur but no leaker is 100% certain about their inclusions.

Werent isabelle, ken, and inceniroar leaked before that? I'll give the man credit on PP though, that was most likely solid insider info.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

Now that I think about it it feels like E3 was ages ago. I hope we see a lot of stuff outside of Smash at this potential direct.

 

[Untouch]

Lu Bu is pretty massively the most popular Warriors character, I don't know if being actually based on a real person would hurt his chances though.
https://twitter.com/koeitecmous/status/929030903812317185?lang=en

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

If IAmShifty leaked Piranha Plant on October 31st...well, there was a 4chan leak that just claimed Piranha Plant around that day (probably before) and no one paid attention to it until after the fact, and an angry playtester or somebody claimed Piranha Plant earlier somewhere on Reddit (I think it was in September) and he also mentioned the fly swagger assist trophy from Mario Paint alongside other things that were true and revealed in the direct.

It doesn't matter who was the first to leak Piranha Plant, iamshifty was the only one to talk about how the character was portrayed, and accurately. In my opinion that says his source knew of the direct ahead of time, similarly to how Loz18 mentioned specifics of Ultimate's reveal like Everyone Is Here

 

[tenworldsguy]

According to the dates, it would appear that a Nintendo Direct is incredibly close. Some say this upcoming week...

I know this is a Smash speculation board and I'll prolly be ignored/warned for this, but
What do you guys want to see at the direct? I think what I'm hyped for is a little obv, but Pikmin 4 would be nice to see

 

[zferolie]

According to the dates, it would appear that a Nintendo Direct is incredibly close. Some say this upcoming week...

I think we are getting a ditect next week or the week after at the latest. They want to get this info out before tgs i assume, and early to mid Sept is when the past fall dorects have been

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This topic is kind of...ugh. I think I'll just bow out of the semi-political discussion for now and be happy (or indifferent) to the remaining fighters regardless of their gender or ethnicity.

...though I feel Jigglypuff is definitely female).

Jigglypuff is female coded, but there aren't any gender dimorphisms for the species so it still could be male.

EDIT: Or rather, you could say it's male and not be inherently wrong. This applies to calling it female as well.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I know this is a Smash speculation board and I'll prolly be ignored/warned for this, but
What do you guys want to see at the direct? I think what I'm hyped for is a little obv, but Pikmin 4 would be nice to see

Xenoblade X Switch port, if the Wii U Switch ports rumor is true. Elma with it would be the icing on the cake

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Not that I don't consider diversity important, or wouldn't be happy with more women (give me Tracer, Lara Croft or Jill Valentine over generic Ninja Guy any day).

But I do think that people applying identity politics to the fighter pass are being a little bit hypocritical/self centered/white centric. After all, there is all this uproar over "what if they do a fighter pass and none of them are female? that is unfair for gender equality." And yet Smash has arguably 1 Black character. Arguably. Heck, Smash is a Japanese game, yet how many characters can you honestly say are asian? as a guy who has no interest in Ryu, does Ryu Hayabusa not get representation credit for being a Japanese guy? Does represenation only count in reference to white people?

Ignoring your whataboutism, pretty much all of the plausible darker skinned characters that are talked about in the fanbase right now happen to be women as well: Elma, Twintelle, Urbosa (or a Gerudo in general), Marina (as part of a duo), etc. Heck, Shantae has been pretty much one of the most popular female character requests for a long time and has been the top voted female character on numerous polls. No reason we can't kill two birds with one stone.

For Asians, Chun-Li, Min-Min, Mai Shiranui, Sakura, and Kasumi would be great women of color to add to complement Ryu and the all male group of fighting game characters.

In regards to the darker skinned characters already in, Villager, Inkling, and Pokemon Trainer all have darker skin alts, and obviously the Mii Fighter could as well. Ganondorf is a gerudo so he could arguably be classified as Arab/Middle Eastern. So it's not just 1. An Octoling echo would probably also have darker skinned alts like the Inkling, and would almost certainly have female as the default (also like the Inklings) as male Octolings in the traditional sense didn't even exist until the 2nd game's DLC.

 

[RileyXY1]

I don't think that a Dynasty Warriors character is getting in because the vast majority of the characters in those games are based on real people, and I don't know how that would go over.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As for the ones already in, Villager, Inkling, and Pokemon Trainer all have darker skin alts, and obviously the Mii Fighter could as well. Ganondorf is a gerudo so he could arguably fit as well. So it's not just 1.

Dark Pit has a dark skinned alt as well.

EDIT: I wonder...If we got a Warriors series character in this game, could we get a Fire Emblem or Hyrule Warriors OC in the next game like Goku and Barbie Rowan and Lianna or Cia and Lana?
EDIT EDIT: Or even music tracks from the aforementioned games?

 

[zferolie]

Whatever we guess and think o whteber "leakers" pop up, we will find out soonest next week.

I think Ryu deserves in smsh, but.... i dont see him being a dlc pick, if that makes sense. So gar every dlc pick has been tied to both a long running series and hs a new game coming to a Nintendo system, or had a huge fan demand(banjo). Ryu... i dont think has either of these.

Like i said, he deserves to be in smash, a legacy NES character from a long running series, but would Nintendo think that would make dlc sales? Base game, yeah i think he would get in right away, but dlc... makes me question.

 

[Deleted member]

Lu Bu is pretty massively the most popular Warriors character, I don't know if being actually based on a real person would hurt his chances though.

I read up awhile ago that Lu Bu is apparently more popular in Japan than in China because his overall character appeals more with the Japanese, and most of China sees Lu Bu as a traitorous villain in both the games and in history which would probably mean he wouldn't be playable in Smash. Now, I don't know how valid that is since there was no real proof provided and neither do I remember what the post was referring to, but if he can't be a fighter, Lu Bu would be perfect as an AT. Nothing sounds scarier than hearing his theme play while getting ready to knock your ass outta here.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I use to be dead set on Lloyd and Porky happening, but now I'm not really sure anymore. This speculation cycle is one hell of a roller coaster.

 

[GoodGrief741]

this is interesting. too often people argue and speculate over which characters alone have the history or status to get in a game like smash when often certain characters lacking one element can remove them from contention. people pushing doomguy, for instance, i genuinely wonder what music he'd bring and how does a game with long corridors translate into a stage? and more than likely a dlc stage serves as a general introduction to the game but the stage itself is small. clocktower, ff7stage, hero's stage all reflect this.

as for the female character discussion, i do think there will be at least one in the first pack i'd guess chun-li, shantae, or laura croft. Older female characters were a bug deal because they were not only female but in incredible games as well. to deny either part of that is to try to alter history. Wanting a female character or a representation of oneself is not antifeminism its human.

The LGBT community received a character in Bayonetta. There is nothing wrong in them being happy in receiving representation.

if i could pick the last two dlc characters i would be laura croft and sepiroth. the biggest videogame villain left and the only videogame character that has had multiple movies in multiple decades and continues to be popular.

If you played Doom and don't think the music is hanging then Doom certainly ain't for ya.

Do you though? You're both complaining about spoilers, but you both regularly hang out in the Smash Forums thread that is basically dedicated to leaks and spoilers.

I feel like you're calling it impossible without having made the least bit of effort to avoid them.

Oh I have tried to avoid spoilers by staying off-site. Didn't work. Social networks and simply using Google already throws spoilers my way, so I figured if I was going to be spoiled I might as well partake in the conversation.

One female fighter that doesn't get a lot of talks is Katrielle Layton. While I don't think she's will be in the game, I think she would be the perfect female fighter because her game appeal to a very large audience (like casual).

Well, she's not the protagonist of her series, so there's a big red flag.

My stance, I don't believe it. Personally, I don't see much reason for Ryu given what Nintendo has said about the DLC to begin with. I'm not sure what new demographic he brings in. You can argue the Koei Tecmo audience, but DoA is more or less their flagship title at the moment where Kasumi makes more sense. He's a legacy character that, right now, feels like he's in purgatory outside of making appearances in DoA. Ryu is very much a character that appeals to the 'old guard' that technically Banjo appeals to. To me, it seems redundant.

I don't think Banjo and Ryu appeal to the same people, partly because those games are two console generations apart.

And also I think Ryu is a very big draw for the Xbox crowd, as the modern trilogy was mainly there. Also to fans of character action games (Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, God of War, etc)

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

once character 4 is announced, there's going to be a civil war of speculations(and lots of salt) on who's the last character for the pass.

 

[Deleted member]

And also I think Ryu is a very big draw for the Xbox crowd, as the modern trilogy was mainly there. Also to fans of character action games (Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, God of War, etc)

I've said this before in the RTC thread, but if he's really in Smash, Hayabusa would be way more of a Microsoft rep than Banjo-Kazooie actually are.

 

[GoodGrief741]

once character 4 is announced, there's going to be a civil war of speculations(and lots of salt) on who's the last character for the pass.

Meanwhile Imma be here happy that we didn't get no gacha characters.

Expectations in check let's gooo

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Well, she's not the protagonist of her series, so there's a big red flag.

She could be a Richter-esque echo if Professor Layton gets in. Same way Apollo and Athena could be alts/echos for Phoenix.

 

[Llort A. Ton]

I know this is a Smash speculation board and I'll prolly be ignored/warned for this, but
What do you guys want to see at the direct? I think what I'm hyped for is a little obv, but Pikmin 4 would be nice to see

Ive been wanting Pikmin 4 since it was "almost done" in 2015. A new DKC would be great, as well as either MK9 or MK8 Expansion packs. I dont expect MP4 to get a trailer, but at least an update saying "Hey, Retros hard at work!" Or something. Maybe a sneak peak at the next 3D Mario too. Were probably due for another Kirby game soon too, it has been a while since Star Allies.

 

[3BitSaurus]

once character 4 is announced, there's going to be a civil war of speculations(and lots of salt) on who's the last character for the pass.

Since no one made this joke yet: this is what the Smash community will look like between December 2019 and February 2020:

Spoiler: Video

 

[GoodGrief741]

She could be a Richter-esque echo if Professor Layton gets in. Same way Apollo and Athena could be alts/echos for Phoenix.

I don't think any of these characters could be Richter-esque Echoes.

Katrielle over Layton seems pretty impossible considering their very different physiques, plus their different personalities, plus the fact that unless Layton's moveset was completely neutered of anything that he actually does in game, it wouldn't fit Katrielle. You'd need to do a Ken at least, and I honestly don't think she's popular enough to consider.

Apollo and Athena (and Edgeworth) over Phoenix depend on what he can do. If he used stuff like the Magatama then a replacement would be required (except maybe for Edgeworth) and if Maya was involved then a new character would need to be modeled as well. Plus some Dark Samus animation changes as all these characters have very different mannerisms.

I could see maybe Apollo or Edgeworth get in Smash 6 like Ken if Phoenix gets in this DLC (or maybe Athena if she takes over as protagonist). Katrielle though? I don't see it.

 

[zferolie]

I think we will get morw pokemon news, like the middle evos, maybe a new dkc game with k rool as the bad guy. I also have been hearing rumors of more wii u ports, so i would like to get a xenoblades chronicles x and Tokyo mirage sessions, with it redone removing the dumb censorship

 

[Megadoomer]

once character 4 is announced, there's going to be a civil war of speculations(and lots of salt) on who's the last character for the pass.

"Going to be"? I thought that had been going on since the Fighter's Pass was first announced.

 

[zferolie]

I still have hope of more season passes. If SF5 is still releasing passes smash could easily do it as well.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

We kinda think we have an idea.
Everyone's been saying Tracer, but we kinda want Chell, from Portal.
Just a thought...

 

[YezenIRl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

This is exactly the problem. Rather than actually engaging with the broader point about how we look at represenation in video games from a purely white centric perspective, you're calling whataboutism and proceeding with a purely white centered discussion. It's a really nconstructive way to approach things.

Ignoring your whataboutism, pretty much all of the plausible darker skinned characters that are talked about in the fanbase right now happen to be women as well: Elma, Twintelle, Urbosa (or a Gerudo in general), Marina (as part of a duo). Heck, Shantae has been pretty much one of the most popular female character requests for a long time. No reason we can't kill two birds with one stone.

For Asians, Chun-Li, Mai Shiranui, and Kasumi would be great women of color to add to complement Ryu and the all male group of traditional fighting game characters.

In regards to the darker skinned characters already in, Villager, Inkling, and Pokemon Trainer all have darker skin alts, and obviously the Mii Fighter could as well. Ganondorf is a gerudo so he could arguably be classified as Arabic/Middle Eastern. So it's not just 1.

1. Arab*. You don't describe people as Arabic.

2. Again, calling that whataboutism is incredibly unfair. Whataboutism is a tactic used to shield something from criticism by bypassing the discussion, not to expand the discussion. I'm not using the lack of racial diversity on the fighter pass to defend Nintendo from a lack of women in their game. I hold that there should be better representation for women in Smash even though Nintendo maybe doesn't really care a whole lot. I'm using it to challenge the white centrality of the discussion.

3. Smash has arguably 1 Black character. A palette swap of a white character is not truly a Black character. Someone like Corrine or Robin can count as both a male and female character, because neither the male nor female form is truly canon nor default, though the males do appear first on the elect screen. A Palette swap of an inkling kind of works, but isn't truly a Black character. But something like a palette swap of Pokemon Trainer (who is actually known to be Red), or a palette swap of Olimar, Pit, or Mario for all I care, IMO doesn't count. A palette swap of a white character is nice, but not a Black character.

4. Sure. Elma, Twintelle, Shantae, and Urbosa are genuinely WOC, and their additions would be increase the diversity of the roster (though adding Urbosa would be very very ridiculous). You can make the same arguments in some respect for Chun-Li, or Mai, or Kasumi. But that doesn't really address my point.

The point is why is to critique the widespread notion that at least one character from the fighter pass must be female, yet there is almost no sentiment (that I've seen) that one character on the fighter pass should be a POC. When we look at the Smash roster, there are far more women than there are POC, or even non white people (not counting creatures and stuff). Again, Nintendo is a Japanese company yet most of their characters are white. Why is an addition of a white woman like Tracer or Lara Croft (who I personally prefer over Ryu), seen as a victory for representation, while the addition of an asian man like Ryu Hayabusa, seen as cause for uproar over lack of diversity?

What about a character like the Prince of Persia? How come he is never mentioned in discussions of representation/diversity?

And at what point does our value for representation become tokenizing? IMO: Elma and Urbosa.

 

[UberPyro64]

Random question, why do people think Edelgard would get in over Byleth? It makes no sense to me. Byleth is the character you play as. Not Edelgard.

 

[StormC]

This is exactly the problem. Rather than actually engaging with the broader point about how we look at represenation in video games from a purely white centric perspective, you're calling whataboutism and proceeding with a purely white centered discussion. It's a really nconstructive way to approach things.

You are literally deflecting the conversation about female representation to other topics that aren't even being discussed. How do you know the people championing more women on the Pass don't also want more characters of color? Don't even pretend you brought this up in good faith.

 

[Deleted member]

We kinda think we have an idea.
Everyone's been saying Tracer, but we kinda want Chell, from Portal.
Just a thought...

Ah...what a wonderful morning.

 

[YezenIRl]

You are literally deflecting the conversation about female representation to other topics that aren't even being discussed. How do you know the people championing more women on the Pass don't also want more characters of color? Don't even pretend you brought this up in good faith.

What faith did I bring this up in? you don't know me.

And I can't know what people championing more women on the pass do or do not want, I can only refer to what I'm seeing being discussed. And what I'm seeing, is a sentiment that if the fighter pass contains no women, then it is a failure of represenation. I've seen no similar standard been put forward that there must be a Black character on the pass, and from what I've seen I don't think there would be. I think if the next two fighters were Tracer and Lara Croft, we'd hear crickets about the fighter pass failing on representation.