Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[NonSpecificGuy]

I do think Smash needs more female representation but I don't think said female representation should be chosen on the main basis that they are a female. The fact that a lot of female 3rd parties aren't even being thought of is what REALLY gets me. Like, Lara Croft is RIGHT ****ING THERE.

She's the most well known female in all of video games, she's easily one of the most iconic characters ever, she was a Playstation mascot which for some reason people want all those to get I, and yet her Smash following is minuscule.

And don't get me wrong, I love Edelgard and I think Three Houses is almost certainly the best FE ever, but I do not want her in Smash because then the astigmatism of too many Fire Emblem reps will rear it's ugly head again. How about Elma? How about Dixie? How about Krystal? How about Pauline?

It seems to me that people are asking for a Female rep in hopes that their specific character gets in and when I bring up the characters above they say "ew not them".

Aside from ALL of that, female representation isn't just a problem with Smash, it's a problem with the industry as a whole.

 

[ChronoBound]

Lara Croft has not been a major popular character since the 90's/early 2000's (and only during the past several years has started to have games with accolades again), so its understandable why there is not more demand for her (she went through over a decade of bad/mediocre games, and her original titles did not age well, which meant a lot of people who did not grow up with them had little interest in her).

It is actually quite curious though why there is not more demand for the likes of Dixie Kong and Toadette though. Dixie in particular might be the biggest name Nintendo character not yet on the roster (aside from possibly the Toads/Mushroom people). Really, perhaps one of the best heroines in all of gaming, yet for whatever reason the Smash fanbase of 2019 does not care for her, when in previous epochs she would be sitting at the top of the polls (due to her credentials alone).

Read this to get a better appreciation of just how much Dixie Kong is worth as not only a Nintendo All-Star, but a heroine in general:
https://smashboards.com/threads/the...est-project-on-post-8245.446464/post-23549985

Most people really don't understand how great of a heroine she truly is, and might very well be the peak of Rare's character creations.

Toadette in particular now has a better resume than most Nintendo characters. She is a co-protagonist of Captain Toad, a major NPC in Odyssey, a playable character in NSMBUDX and Mario Maker 2. Its absolutely incredible how she went from spinoff exclusive (and she actually missed quite a few spinoffs after Mario Kart Wii, to the point where she did not make any more game appearances until Mario Kart 8, a whole six years), to being now a part of the mainline cast. She might very well be the most important Mario character not yet part of the roster after Toad and Paper Mario.

When I start seeing much more demand for these two (who actually have better credentials than most of their male cohorts in terms of the Nintendo side of things), then I will start taking the cries for more female representation seriously.

 

[Deleted member]

Lara Croft has not been a major popular character since the 90's/early 2000's (and only during the past several years has started to have games with accolades again), so its understandable why there is not more demand for her (she went through over a decade of bad/mediocre games, and her original titles did not age well, which meant a lot of people who did not grow up with them had little interest in her).

It is actually quite curious though why there is not more demand for the likes of Dixie Kong and Toadette though. Dixie in particular might be the biggest name Nintendo character not yet on the roster (aside from possibly the Toads/Mushroom people). Really, perhaps one of the best heroines in all of gaming, yet for whatever reason the Smash fanbase of 2019 does not care for her, when in previous epochs she would be sitting at the top of the polls (due to her credentials alone).

Read this to get a better appreciation of just how much Dixie Kong is worth as not only a Nintendo All-Star, but a heroine in general:
https://smashboards.com/threads/the...est-project-on-post-8245.446464/post-23549985

Most people really don't understand how great of a heroine she truly is, and might very well be the peak of Rare's character creations.

Toadette in particular now has a better resume than most Nintendo characters. She is a co-protagonist of Captain Toad, a major NPC in Odyssey, a playable character in NSMBUDX and Mario Maker 2. Its absolutely incredible how she went from spinoff exclusive (and she actually missed quite a few spinoffs after Mario Kart Wii, to the point where she did not make any more game appearances until Mario Kart 8, a whole six years), to being now a part of the mainline cast. She might very well be the most important Mario character not yet part of the roster after Toad and Paper Mario.

When I start seeing much more demand for these two (who actually have better credentials than most of their male cohorts in terms of the Nintendo side of things), then I will start taking the cries for more female representation seriously.

Dixie Kong support mainly fell off when K. Rool got in. Hard to say she'll get in after that.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Sakurai's latest Famitsu column wasn't Smash related as it was more of him talking about TGS and awards, but 1 of the things he apparently did mention was Atelier Ryza winning something called the Future Award. After I read that part of the translation, I kinda popped hard seeing Sakurai mentioning this cause it just makes me think Atelier could somehow end up being in Smash, though it probably won't happen anytime soon.

Source:

Sakurai talks about the Future Award at Tokyo Game Show next. This is an award given to promising games shown at the event. Only attendees can vote for the awards. This year Atelier Ryza: Ever Darkness & the Secret Hideout won the top prize for having standout character design. https://t.co/JWhDNp5ecl pic.twitter.com/HdlerjuKrP

— Kody NOKOLO (@KodyNOKOLO) October 9, 2019

Okay, but Atelier is a Koei Tecmo series.

Imagine the pure outrage if we got Atelier instead of Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

I love whenever we have this female character argument because you have so many people just completely missing the point of the discussion. Yes, we know Sakurai isn't being intentionally sexist and we know that characters should have more merits to their inclusion beyond "token woman." However, that doesn't mean we can't criticize the DLC lineup for lacking substantial female representation (no, Kazooie. Doesn't. Count.) or that the disappointment isn't valid. It's kinda funny how the same people who criticize the lack of Zelda or Kirby representation are the same kinds of people who will shut down female character complaints with "lol Kazooie" or "there's enough women in the base game," as if obsessing over quotas suddenly isn't okay when it comes to women and minorities because something something keep politics out of the game featuring Cloud "ecoterrorist" Strife.

 

[NintenZ]

I have noticed a pattern, whenever someone asks for something like “more villains” or “more side characters” or whatever but when it’s a female that’s when they decide to say “We shouldn’t add characters to fill quotas”.

To those people I have something to say...

Shut up and let people enjoy what they please.

 

[DarthEnderX]

People need to just get over the fact that there are way more iconic male video game characters than there are iconic female video game characters, so of course the ratio isn't going to be even. And that's not Smash's fault, that's 40 years of video game industry's fault.

Imagine the pure outrage if we got Atelier instead of Ryu Hayabusa.

My outrage would be most refined...

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Okay, but Atelier is a Koei Tecmo series.

Imagine the pure outrage if we got Atelier instead of Ryu Hayabusa.

Lol, don't you frequently talk about the "smash bubble"? Or are you talking about the outrage in the "smash bubble"?

 

[Deleted member]

Okay I've seen this series bouncing around from time to time. I think it's an RPG and some of its music is pretty fantastic, but fill me in. What is the Atelier series and what makes it stand out from say, Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy. Gameplay, story, anything.

Well that's interesting. I've heard about the Atelier series but I'm not that well versed into it. Can you fill me up on it and it's history?

To tell you the truth, I wasn't following the series until I saw Ryza for the first time, but I have at least found this article explaining what the series is all about: https://barrelwisdom.com/info/atelier-series-guide/

Excerpt from article:

An adorable girl pursues alchemy to fulfill her dreams. Instead chasing a great evil to the ends of the universe, she’s casually bending space to give herself a better place to sleep when she’s on the road. The laws of physics and plain common sense mean nothing to a master alchemist; even the legendary philosopher’s stone isn’t so precious that it can’t be made into a pie. Maybe the world is in danger, maybe it isn’t, but Atelier is a simpler, more slice of life tale than your typical fare.
Atelier is basically the “original” item making RPG series. Everything else is a shameful imposter. Probably. More seriously, the first entry in the series, Atelier Marie, is thought to have popularized the concept of item crafting in later RPGs. Atelier remains the king, queen, and especially princess of item creation, and all others bow before it nearly 20 years later.
The series itself is thus known for incredibly deep item crafting systems, and the games — from exploration to monster drops — revolve around this aspect. They otherwise feature standard turn based battle systems. The game progression varies significantly; many have time limits and involve mild resource management, and the rest don’t have time limits at all but still vary a lot. The more recent games are further known for cute girls doing cute things. You will have opinions on Cutest Alchemy Girl and if you say it isn’t Totori you are factually wrong.

There's also this guide that runs down each game's story and mechanics: https://imgur.com/a/D2sCPP3

Isn't that the game with the girl with the juicy thighs? Wouldn't she be nerfed the same way Snake was? lol

Well **** that does sound possible, but then again, Joker managed to get a realistic looking firearm in Smash, so who's to say Sakurai wouldn't get away with putting Ryza's thighs in Smash?

Okay, but Atelier is a Koei Tecmo series.

Imagine the pure outrage if we got Atelier instead of Ryu Hayabusa. I'd love to see it if only for that.

I don't really think there would be that much outrage if Atelier got in Smash before Ninja Gaiden. The only real outrage that would occur if Atelier was in Smash would be some group of people REEing over more "weeb ****" in Smash or something.

 

[Aetheri]

How about this...let's just put Midna in the game as a fighter!

She's a lady!

She's a new Zelda fighter!

EVERYONE'S HAPPY!!! especially me

 

[Calamitas]

How about this...let's just put Midna in the game as a fighter!

She's a lady!

She's a new Zelda fighter!

EVERYONE'S HAPPY!!! especially me

Watch her get in only to be sold to us as "Wolf Link and Midna", with a moveset where Wolf Link still does the most.

 

[Impa4Smash]

Watch her get in only to be sold to us as "Wolf Link and Midna", with a moveset where Wolf Link still does the most.

well that’s how it works in Twilight Princess to be fair

 

[Aetheri]

Watch her get in only to be sold to us as "Wolf Link and Midna", with a moveset where Wolf Link still does the most.

I'll take it!!

 

[yeet123]

Dixie Kong is the biggest and most well-deserving Nintendo character not yet in Smash.

Good thing shes on the next pass

 

[KatKit]

Dixie Kong is the biggest and most well-deserving Nintendo character not yet in Smash.

Good thing shes on the next pass

Biggest? Subjective. One of the biggest? Maybe. I wish her luck and would be happy for her supporters, but my girl is the face of a relatively recent, multi-million unit selling Nintendo franchise that still has no playable characters.

 

[SNEKeater]

If Lara Croft doesn't have that much following is because her status isn't the same. Yeah, she's an icon, but I would argue that she was an icon. Well, not really. I think the best description is "The classic Lara Croft is an icon but reboot Lara isn't".
Also the reboot games as far as I have heard aren't super great games with some people disliking the new Lara, and I guess that and the fact she had a period of inactivity before the reboot doesn't help to increase her following.

Maybe time will prove me wrong but I honestly don't think Lara will be in Smash, at least Ultimate. Absolutely nothing against her, but I see at least Geno, Sora and 2B joining Smash before her. These three have more following for Smash, even Neku I'd say.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Lol, don't you frequently talk about the "smash bubble"? Or are you talking about the outrage in the "smash bubble"?

Outrage in the Smash Bubble. I suppose more casual fans would be confused, but another character is another character.

 

[KatKit]

If Lara Croft doesn't have that much following is because her status isn't the same. Yeah, she's an icon, but I would argue that she was an icon. Well, not really. I think the best description is "The classic Lara Croft is an icon but reboot Lara isn't".

Also the reboot games as far as I have heard aren't super great games with some people disliking the new Lara, and I guess that and the fact she had a period of inactivity before the reboot doesn't help to increase her following.

Imma let you finish, but we have BK in the game and people are asking for Crash and Spyro.

The Tomb Raider reboot is different, but still quite good. I can't say the same about any of the aforementioned (that isn't a remake). And this is coming from someone who'd prefer about 15 other different SquareEnix reps lol.

 

[ChronoBound]

Dixie Kong is the biggest and most well-deserving Nintendo character not yet in Smash.

Good thing shes on the next pass

She is probably the next Toad as far as never making it in, even though she/he should have made it in decades ago. I am quite pessimistic on her prospects.

I don't expect any Nintendo characters as DLC for Ultimate. The closest will be Geno (who is technically third-party). We might get another Corrin (promotional Nintendo character), but I doubt any long running Nintendo characters will be DLC. I think Dixie Kong just had a lot of very bad luck, and as a result, missed the boat on ever making the roster in most circumstances going forward. In a reboot situation, she has a very hard time justifying her spot on

I also do agree on your first sentence. She really feels like the last missing piece to the puzzle on the Nintendo side of things. The only other Nintendo character I think that seems odd about their absence at this point are the Toads (Toad, Toadette, Captain).

Its really funny how every "impossible" roster dream I had was fulfilled with this title (Ridley, Castlevania, every character returning, even pleasant surprises like Dark Samus), yet the one thing I thought was plausible/somewhat likely (Dixie) was ironically the one thing that did not happen and might never happen. Pretty amusing. This roster is pretty miraculous. I doubt anyone would have believed we would ever get the likes of Young Link back and/or that Metroid would be the first franchise to four playable characters out of DK, Kirby, Star Fox, and Metroid, when Ridley seemed ruled out and Dark Samus was irrelevant for over a decade.

I feel like a spoiled child to even being asking for Dixie, Ultimate gave me 95% of everything I wanted to see in Smash Bros.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Dixie Kong is the biggest and most well-deserving Nintendo character not yet in Smash.

That is very debatable

Let's not throw around subjective terms and try to pose them as absolute fact

 

[Deleted member]

Outrage in the Smash Bubble. I suppose more casual fans would be confused, but another character is another character.

Outrage in the Smash Bubble? I thought the general consensus on Hayabusa were mixed rather than the majority being highly in favor of seeing him in Smash because of how predictable he seems to be at the moment.

Then again, I only follow this thread, so maybe there is a good amount of people on the Hayabusa Hype Train than I originally thought.

 

[yeet123]

That is very debatable

Let's not throw around subjective terms and try to pose them as facts

ill do what i want, thanks. Especially if you dont offer a counter point.

Name another Nintendo character thats not represented in Smash (sorry, Toads in a moveset) thats as big as Dixie Kong and not in the game.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

It's kinda funny how the same people who criticize the lack of Zelda or Kirby representation are the same kinds of people who will shut down female character complaints with "lol Kazooie" or "there's enough women in the base game,"

I have noticed a pattern, whenever someone asks for something like “more villains” or “more side characters” or whatever but when it’s a female that’s when they decide to say “We shouldn’t add characters to fill quotas”.

I wonder what Smashboards you guys are using, because every time the female character debate comes up, its always the same exact outrage and people having the same type of discussion over and over, I haven't seen any of this opposing force.

I think theres a very clear difference between people wanting more interesting characters to be added, rather than whoever's the protagonist/most popular; and wanting/saying the same 5 female characters need to be DLC just because of how uneven the roster is.

I do think Smash needs more female representation but I don't think said female representation should be chosen on the main basis that they are a female.

People need to just get over the fact that there are way more iconic male video game characters than there are iconic female video game characters, so of course the ratio isn't going to be even. And that's not Smash's fault, that's 40 years of video game industry's fault.

Thank you, someone finally said it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Name another Nintendo character thats not represented in Smash (sorry, Toads in a moveset) thats as big as Dixie Kong and not in the game.

Hint: Look at the alternate version to Pokemon: Let's Go Pikachu.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Black Eagles isn't the only route, Gwen. Is this what you see when you think of Three Houses?

Literally as soon as the Three House leaders were shown in the February direct and as soon as I saw Edelgard's dead stare I knew exactly which house would be receiving the most bias, both from the game and from fans. Though I'm glad Dmitri at least gets a decent amount of attention as well, seen plenty of post timeskip art of him.

I wonder what Smashboards you guys are using, because every time the female character debate comes up, its always the same exact outrage and people having the same type of discussion over and over, I haven't seen any of this opposing force.

I think theres a very clear difference between people wanting more interesting characters to be added, rather than whoever's the protagonist/most popular; and wanting/saying the same 5 female characters need to be DLC just because of how uneven the roster is.

I agree, let's quit beating a dead horse here. DLC will get in based on who Sakurai wants, there's no quotas to fill.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

ill do what i want, thanks. Especially if you dont offer a counter point.

Name another Nintendo character thats not represented in Smash (sorry, Toads in a moveset) thats as big as Dixie Kong and not in the game.

Let's see, I'll give you a couple. I'll try to be as objective as possible here

Waluigi
Isaac
a Rhythm Heaven character (personal bias aside, of course)
Bandana Waddle Dee
Rex

The list goes on

I personally feel all of these have just as many reasons as Dixie does in terms of Smash viability

 

[Schnee117]

And don't get me wrong, I love Edelgard and I think Three Houses is almost certainly the best FE ever, but I do not want her in Smash because then the astigmatism of too many Fire Emblem reps will rear it's ugly head again.

People being over-entitled manchildren isn't stopping me from wanting more FE content in general.
If people want to whine about her or any other TH character just because their logo is the Falchion then they can keep on crying honestly.
I only have four words for them

 

[yeet123]

Hint: Look at the alternate version to Pokemon: Let's Go Pikachu.

Eevee is in Smash already

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

We'll stop complaining about people wanting Fire Emblem content when they stop calling video game icons "discount cereal box mascots". It's extremely disrespectful.

 

[yeet123]

Let's see, I'll give you a couple

Trying to be as objective as possible here

Waluigi
Isaac
a Rhythm Heaven character (personal bias aside, of course)
Bandana Waddle Dee
Rex

The list goes on

Waluigi is in the game (would be a dope add)
Isaac is in the game
Rhythm Heaven has no reps that are as deserving as Dixie (but chorus kids would be dope)
Bandana Dee.... maybe.
You could make an argument for Rex as well (even tho we have 25 jrpg swordsmen in the game....)

 

[KatKit]

ill do what i want, thanks. Especially if you dont offer a counter point.

Name another Nintendo character thats not represented in Smash (sorry, Toads in a moveset) thats as big as Dixie Kong and not in the game.

When Dixie Kong gets 4 standalone (or spinoff) titles in less than a decade that sell at least ~3 million units in Europe alone, hit my girl up. Style Savvy is bigger.

 

[yeet123]

When Dixie Kong gets 4 standalone titles in less than a decade that sell at least ~3 million units in Europe alone, hit my girl up. Style Savvy is bigger.

While undeniably a popular series, I find it incredibly hard to argue that the style savvy girl has made more of an impact on nintendo/gaming history than dixie kong.

sales doesnt determine a smash character's addition either. Shoutout to Banjo, the best character addition in Ultimate (lol).

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Rhythm Heaven has no reps that are as deserving as Dixie (but chorus kids would be dope)

Are we just gonna forget the fact that like Dixie, a Rhythm Heaven character was actually planed for Smash at one point, yet ended up being scraped?

 

[Will]

y'all really arguing if characters deserve to be in smash again like anyone does

except if you're waluigi because he subobjectively does

 

[yeet123]

Are we just gonna forget the fact that like Dixie, a Rhythm Heaven character was actually planed for Smash at one point, yet ended up being scraped?

No, were not.

HOWEVER, there isnt a singular character in rhythm heaven thats as well known or bigger to Nintendo than Dixie. Facts

 

[Will]

No, were not.

HOWEVER, there isnt a singular character in rhythm heaven thats as well known or bigger to Nintendo than Dixie. Facts

putting dixie in before my boy dr. kawashima?

my grandma would main him so hard

 

[Schnee117]

putting dixie in before my boy dr. kawashima?

my grandma would main him so hard

He has a role in game already so he doesn't count according to these arbitrary rules

/s

 

[Deleted member]

putting dixie in before my boy dr. kawashima?

my grandma would main him so hard

Come on, Sakurai. Gives Will's grandma what she wants.

 

[yeet123]

y'all really arguing if characters deserve to be in smash again like anyone does

except if you're waluigi because he subobjectively does

This message board is LITERALLY made for ppl to discuss why they believe a character deserves to be in Smash. What do you expect?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

This message board is LITERALLY made for ppl to discuss why they believe a character deserves to be in Smash. What do you expect?

Better persuasive arguments.