Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Alanqa]

I'm a little surprised nobody is talking about this.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I'm a little surprised nobody is talking about this.

Did they say Hero and Banjo do NOT take up the remaining 14 WoL slots??

How and why

 

[SKX31]

MOBA is subgenre I haven't considered for Smash. I'm not against it, but that'd be a legit surprise and a discussion I'd have to genuinely research to properly comment on. How many people realistically see it happening? Is there a large request for this? Who are likely candidates? This is kind of interesting.

My RTC % hovers around 25-30 % combined right now. SMITE's already been ported to the Switch, and Tencent ported their own mobile LoL ripoff to the Switch too. So it's technically possible to port the main games too if they go that route (but I strongly doubt that). If there's a port of either spin off game, my % rises to somewhere around the 40-50 % mark. Again, we have no idea of Sakurai's tastes here, and that's going to be the deciding factor.

Well, I believe me, 3BitSaurus and Lesley Black Velvet (her avatar was previously Miss Fortune IIRC) are the only ones here with significant MOBA experience. Still, I've seen people in the MOBA communities be pretty positive to a theoretical Smash appearance, that includes both fans and creators of both LoL and Dota 2. They don't have main characters as such, so poster children would have to do.

The likely candidates (Ahri, Ryze, Lux as well as Lina and Anti Mage) are gonna be spoilered:

Spoiler: The likely candidates

Ahri has been LoL's face since she was released, and she's the most likely one IMHO. If I had to guess she'd play like a Rosa / Palu combo, annoying opponents with projectiles while lifestealing occassionally from successful spell hits. She also has a unique Charm spell, so that's another possible mechanic. Fragile and somewhat onedimensional though.

Ryze was LoL's face during the early days, and still retains an important spot in its roster. He'd be much more of a magical pressure character - I've guessed he'd have to choose between landing the big magical wombo combo or keep a consistent magical pressure, but not both because of MP. His passive would need to be reworked though.

Lux is another icon of LoL's design philosophy, Focused on slowing, rooting and dealing damage in that order. She'd also be a very commital character, so that's worth keeping in mind. Final Spark deserves extra note, since it's a very wide laser that would be a very likely follow up to a slow or root. She'd also be a bit more durable than the other two LoL reps.

Then we get to Dota 2's design philosophy and hoo boy, Lina exemplifies that. She's not just a early poster child for when Valve announced the game, she's also been consistently played. But "Nuker" sums her up really well. Cast spells and get move / attack speed. Again, fragile but devastating magical damage if she can land it. Hugely commital - Laguna Blade deals Kafrizz-level damage but can be shielded / evaded in the home game, so her kit translates well into Smash.

Anti-Mage is the prototypical carry hero whom others - from both games - draw upon. While he'd need some adjusting as well (converting Mana Break into a mark, like Lux / Ryze), he'd be based around a constant offensive game and teleporting around with a short cooldown. Oh, he has a Reflector too in Counterspell. Also rather fragile and reliant on his Blink, but would not hesitate to get into someone's face.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Did they say Hero and Banjo do NOT take up the remaining 14 WoL slots??

How and why

Sakurai's trying to throw us off the scent.

 

[ChronoBound]

I am not sure if people here have read it, but I want to make a notice of the essay I made in support of Dixie Kong's inclusion. Ultimate's roster has been extremely fantastic, and that this point Dixie is the last character left that is dear to me (especially from childhood) that is not yet on the roster. She is a legendary heroine, and one of Nintendo's finest characters in general. I hope people here check out when they have time. Dixie Kong is a character I feel most of the contemporary Smash Bros. fanbase sleeps on.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...-dukemon102-on-post-8131.446464/post-23549985

She is a treasure. A Nintendo character of the caliber to which was on par in importance to their franchise as much of Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl's additions (and Ridley and K. Rool). Its strange that there is far less interest in her than there should be. DKC2, DKC3, and Tropical Freeze are fantastic titles, and part of their charm was the one made through Dixie, both from her personality and gameplay abilities. Give the link a read, I am sure it will give you some more appreciation to just how special Dixie Kong is, and how in many ways is the ultimate heroine.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

My RTC % hovers around 25-30 % combined right now. SMITE's already been ported to the Switch, and Tencent ported their own mobile LoL ripoff to the Switch too. So it's technically possible to port the main games too if they go that route (but I strongly doubt that). If there's a port of either spin off game, my % rises to somewhere around the 40-50 % mark. Again, we have no idea of Sakurai's tastes here, and that's going to be the deciding factor.

Well, I believe me, 3BitSaurus and Lesley Black Velvet (her avatar was previously Miss Fortune IIRC) are the only ones here with significant MOBA experience. Still, I've seen people in the MOBA communities be pretty positive to a theoretical Smash appearance, that includes both fans and creators of both LoL and Dota 2. They don't have main characters as such, so poster children would have to do.

The likely candidates (Ahri, Ryze, Lux as well as Lina and Anti Mage) are gonna be spoilered:

Spoiler: The likely candidates

Ahri has been LoL's face since she was released, and she's the most likely one IMHO. If I had to guess she'd play like a Rosa / Palu combo, annoying opponents with projectiles while lifestealing occassionally from successful spell hits. She also has a unique Charm spell, so that's another possible mechanic. Fragile and somewhat onedimensional though.

Ryze was LoL's face during the early days, and still retains an important spot in its roster. He'd be much more of a magical pressure character - I've guessed he'd have to choose between landing the big magical wombo combo or keep a consistent magical pressure, but not both because of MP. His passive would need to be reworked though.

Lux is another icon of LoL's design philosophy, Focused on slowing, rooting and dealing damage in that order. She'd also be a very commital character, so that's worth keeping in mind. Final Spark deserves extra note, since it's a very wide laser that would be a very likely follow up to a slow or root. She'd also be a bit more durable than the other two LoL reps.

Then we get to Dota 2's design philosophy and hoo boy, Lina exemplifies that. She's not just a early poster child for when Valve announced the game, she's also been consistently played. But "Nuker" sums her up really well. Cast spells and get move / attack speed. Again, fragile but devastating magical damage if she can land it. Hugely commital - Laguna Blade deals Kafrizz-level damage but can be shielded / evaded in the home game, so her kit translates well into Smash.

Anti-Mage is the prototypical carry hero whom others - from both games - draw upon. While he'd need some adjusting as well (converting Mana Break into a mark, like Lux / Ryze), he'd be based around a constant offensive game and teleporting around with a short cooldown. Oh, he has a Reflector too in Counterspell. Also rather fragile and reliant on his Blink, but would not hesitate to get into someone's face.

I don't know much about LoL, but I played Dota 2 a lot back in the day. I think the another poster characters would be Juggernaut, he's still used in the marketing even today if you look at the Steam page.

Still if by some off chance we got Valve content in Smash, I really hope it would be Gordon, Heavy, or Chell before any Dota character. Juggernaut would be an amazing Mii Swordfighter costume though.

 

[SKX31]

I don't know much about LoL, but I played Dota 2 a lot back in the day. I think the another poster characters would be Juggernaut, he's still used in the marketing even today if you look at the Steam page.

Still if by some off chance we got Valve content in Smash, I really hope it would be Gordon, Heavy, or Chell before any Dota character. Juggernaut would be an amazing Mii Swordfighter costume though.

Yeah, I was not sure about Juggernaut partly because he inherited Omnislash (really).

Still, the whole Valve situation is not easy on my mind at all. Sure I lean heavily towards the Dota 2 camp, but knowing that such an inclusion would leave the Orange Box trio in the cold again? Still would be in favor of Gordon and a Juggernaut Costume though.

 

[NintenZ]

Nier Automata is a critically acclaimed break out hit that SquareEnix heavily advertised before and after its release. Now, something like Lost Sphear is niche. However, Nier Automata sold over 4 million copies (and 2B has had several guest cameos outside of it) and fans have been demanding a Switch port for quite some time. Additionally, the game's director, lead designer, and producer have all stated that they'd love to do it, but that ultimately the decision is up to SquareEnix. Moreover, the original game had a cancelled PSVita version in the making that was scrapped. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up on the Switch, too. Nintendo would then have an exclusive on their hands and a way to introduce their audience to the series.

This doesn't even factor in 2B's popularity. For a modern day videogame character, she's pretty freakin' iconic. It doesn't hurt that Sakurai is a huge Drakengard/Nier fan. Yes, it's Nintendo's decision, but if the opportunity ever presented itself, he'd most likely take it. If 2B ever ended up in Smash, she can promote hypothetical Nier ports.

Nier Automata is a popular game, yes, but Drakengard as a whole was what I was referring to as being “niche” in the sense that none of the games have really taken off even after the release of Automata, and it’s also not a legacy franchise like many of the other third-party franchises in Smash that either are or have roots to a legacy franchise (Except Bayonetta but Nintendo co-owns her) and has almost no connections to Nintendo whatsoever.

Now you do bring up a really good point about the cancelled Vita port which, if ported to Switch, could significantly boost 2B’s chances, but we’ll have to see in all honesty if that happens.

However in terms of Square Enix characters, there’s a lot I see before her but it isn’t necessarily because she’s not indicative of the modern gaming industry it’s moreso other franchises from them that are significantly bigger to the company.

These include Crono from Crono Trigger, Lara Croft from Tomb Raider, Randi from Secret of Mana, and Sora from KH (Although he could count as a Disney character).

All-in-all though that’s just my personal thoughts on her chances, it’s all subjective and I think anything at this rate is a possibility but in all honesty I just feel other characters may take priority before her is all, but really, who knows?

 

[perfectchaos83]

Did they say Hero and Banjo do NOT take up the remaining 14 WoL slots??

How and why

It could be a bit of a miscommunication. It could be that, alongside Hero and Banjo, There's still 14 Slots left from before they were added.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Did they say Hero and Banjo do NOT take up the remaining 14 WoL slots??

How and why

I’m guessing they added two more or copy + pasted two and filled ‘em in.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Did they say Hero and Banjo do NOT take up the remaining 14 WoL slots??

How and why

They added a new one and put them in it.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a little surprised nobody is talking about this.

All it really tells us is that we could get even more characters than what was said in the WoL slots and while that's unlikely I never would've ruled it out as that happened before in Smash 4 and that game was a million times less successful than Smash Ultimate.

 

[Ben Holt]

Until Sakurai says "this is the last DLC fighter" or if a 17th fighter is revealed, I'm gonna lean toward the dummy slot theory being true.
Though I'd certainly be ok with more.
16 characters may seem like a lot, but aside from several echo fighters, we only got six new characters in the base roster. 6+16 = 22, which follows the trend of newcomers added in each new installment.
And remember that Sakurai said during Smash 4 that we got Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit because they had extra time in development, but not enough to make a brand new character. So it stands to reason that 1 unique fighter is worth AT LEAST 3 Echo Fighters. So we may get an Echo Pass for 5 bucks or less.

 

[Dee Dude]

Hey guys?

I’m in the process of making a wish/prediction list for the Smash Fighter Pass/Extra DLC and I can’t decide which Namco & Capcom characters to use, I could use some suggestions.

Namco: Agumon, Lloyd, or Heihachi?

Capcom: Phoenix, Leon, or Monster Hunter?

 

[Ace C.R.O.S.S.]

Hey guys?

I’m in the process of making a wish/prediction list for the Smash Fighter Pass/Extra DLC and I can’t decide which Namco & Capcom characters to use, I could use some suggestions.

Namco: Agumon, Lloyd, or Heihachi?

Capcom: Phoenix, Leon, or Monster Hunter?

Namco: Lloyd, he's kind of fan requested
Capcom: Definitely Phoenix Wright!!!!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hey guys?

I’m in the process of making a wish/prediction list for the Smash Fighter Pass/Extra DLC and I can’t decide which Namco & Capcom characters to use, I could use some suggestions.

Namco: Agumon, Lloyd, or Heihachi?

Capcom: Phoenix, Leon, or Monster Hunter?

My preferences are Agumon and Phoenix Wright.

 

[Door Key Pig]

So is it possible that Steve may be the closest thing we're getting to an Indie fighter for Smash if he gets in? Or could like, Shantae get the elusive part? Because after getting both Shovel Knight as an AT and Sans as the most convincing Mii costume ever, maybe there could be a little hope for a straight up playable Indie/former Indie character whose legacy is stronger in a historical sense than either SK or Undertale?

 

[Nquoid]

Shoutout to @Evil Trapezium for making this for me.
I think this is an ideal realistic set of Fighter's Passes to fill the 16 World of Light slots.
View attachment 239827

Late to the party but wanted to tweak:

Move Geno to a bonus character and put 2B in his place.
Cut Spyro and put Nakoruru in instead. (Or Arle, or Chun-Li, or KOS-MOS, or Morrigan, or Lara; honestly this is kind of free space)
Amaterasu instead of Dante for the Kamiya continuation.
In a hypothetical future world where Beyond Good & Evil 2 is the biggest game ever, let's stick Jade in instead of Rayman (sorry guy, maybe Smash 6)
Add Jill to Leon as an alt (even if it really should be Chris/Jill or Leon/Claire
And finally cut Master Chief and put Tracer in instead.

There we go, I am sure no one will have issues with that. /s

 

[GoodGrief741]

Hey guys?

I’m in the process of making a wish/prediction list for the Smash Fighter Pass/Extra DLC and I can’t decide which Namco & Capcom characters to use, I could use some suggestions.

Namco: Agumon, Lloyd, or Heihachi?

Capcom: Phoenix, Leon, or Monster Hunter?

Heihachi or Lloyd for Bamco, Phoenix or Leon for Capcom.

Didn't help much but I eliminated the ones I don't see getting in at all. If I had to bet I'd got with Heihachi and Phoenix.

Late to the party but wanted to tweak:

Move Geno to a bonus character and put 2B in his place.
Cut Spyro and put Nakoruru in instead. (Or Arle, or Chun-Li, or KOS-MOS, or Morrigan, or Lara; honestly this is kind of free space)
Amaterasu instead of Dante for the Kamiya continuation.
In a hypothetical future world where Beyond Good & Evil 2 is the biggest game ever, let's stick Jade in instead of Rayman (sorry guy, maybe Smash 6)
Add Jill to Leon as an alt (even if it really should be Chris/Jill or Leon/Claire
And finally cut Master Chief and put Tracer in instead.

There we go, I am sure no one will have issues with that. /s

Most of those changes are for the worse imo. Also afaik Jade won't be in BG&E2 (to my disappointment).

 

[yeet123]

Shoutout to @Evil Trapezium for making this for me.
I think this is an ideal realistic set of Fighter's Passes to fill the 16 World of Light slots.
View attachment 239827

PUT CHIEF IN SMASH

 

[perfectchaos83]

So is it possible that Steve may be the closest thing we're getting to an Indie fighter for Smash if he gets in? Or could like, Shantae get the elusive part? Because after getting both Shovel Knight as an AT and Sans as the most convincing Mii costume ever, maybe there could be a little hope for a straight up playable Indie/former Indie character whose legacy is stronger in a historical sense than either SK or Undertale?

My thought for a long time was that the first indie will either be Shantae or Reimu. Both are franchises whose popularity cannot simply be written off as a novelty at this point. (Steve is no longer indie, so I don't count him as such). This is something that I've always felt holds indies back. They make a big splash, then tend to disappear. Just look at Shovel Knight. He had a big boon in popularity and almost nothing has happened with his series for years and its still in nearly the same situation it was in 2014.

 

[Curious Villager]

The fact that you can name all of these and still miss characters like Arle Nadja, Cooking Mama, Sakura Shinguji, Reimu Hakurei, or Velvet Crowe is wild. It just goes to show that it's not as shallow as people think. Plus from there you can spin into series' that have heavy female fanbases such as Story of Seasons, Ace Attorney, Professor Layton, even double dipping in Final Fantasy 7 with Tifa or Sephiroth... There are options, people! And encouraging that those options be explored, especially in a pass that is already varied in audience and vibe, is a good thing.

There is indeed a larger variety of options out there that can appeal to as wide of an audience as possible, and I think Nintendo and Sakurai realize that if this current pass is anything to go by. It's always good to consider those options and what they can bring to the table.

Like you said, characters that can appeal to new genres or demographics not only can pull in a larger audience, but can also include a more diverse variety of options into the game. I think it might do the community good to explore those options further, at least we wouldn't be stuck discussing the same handful of characters and be surprised when another "out of left field/Sakurai pick" character comes along...

But that's just me.

 

[Nquoid]

Most of those changes are for the worse imo. Also afaik Jade won't be in BG&E2 (to my disappointment).

In terms of size of franchise probably? But it does solve a lot of the gender issues that were discussed.

Spyro, Dante, Rayman and Chief are definitely contentious cuts to make there, but I tried to make the moves lateral at least?

 

[perfectchaos83]

There is indeed a larger variety of options out there that can appeal to as wide of an audience as possible, and I think Nintendo and Sakurai realize that if this current pass is anything to go by. It's always good to consider those options and what they can bring to the table.

Like you said, characters that can appeal to new genres or demographics not only can pull in a larger audience, but can also include a more diverse variety of options into the game. I think it might do the community good to explore those options further, at least we wouldn't be stuck discussing the same handful of characters and be surprised when another "out of left field/Sakurai pick" character comes along...

But that's just me.

Particularly this is why I've always felt franchises on the same level of Persona are more likely than those on the level of Resident Evil.

 

[Ben Holt]

Late to the party but wanted to tweak:

Move Geno to a bonus character and put 2B in his place.
Cut Spyro and put Nakoruru in instead. (Or Arle, or Chun-Li, or KOS-MOS, or Morrigan, or Lara; honestly this is kind of free space)
Amaterasu instead of Dante for the Kamiya continuation.
In a hypothetical future world where Beyond Good & Evil 2 is the biggest game ever, let's stick Jade in instead of Rayman (sorry guy, maybe Smash 6)
Add Jill to Leon as an alt (even if it really should be Chris/Jill or Leon/Claire
And finally cut Master Chief and put Tracer in instead.

There we go, I am sure no one will have issues with that. /s

I will fight to the death for Spyro. And if you wanna replace a Capcom rep with Ammy, make it Leon. Hands off Dante!
This is MY wishlist!

 

[Wunderwaft]

So is it possible that Steve may be the closest thing we're getting to an Indie fighter for Smash if he gets in? Or could like, Shantae get the elusive part? Because after getting both Shovel Knight as an AT and Sans as the most convincing Mii costume ever, maybe there could be a little hope for a straight up playable Indie/former Indie character whose legacy is stronger in a historical sense than either SK or Undertale?

I think Steve is likelier than every indie character and also likelier than the vast majority of third party candidates. It's Minecraft, It's the pioneer of western indies. The release of the game caused a renaissance where western indie games were on the rise. If you don't like to count Steve since he's owned by Microsoft now though, then there's Reimu from Touhou, who in a similair sense pioneered the doujin scene in Japan.

 

[Nquoid]

I will fight to the death for Spyro. And if you wanna replace a Capcom rep with Ammy, make it Leon. Hands off Dante!
This is MY wishlist!

Love Spyro over Crash, but I couldn't in good concience have a fighters pass with back to back Activision characters. And even I can't deny Crash is sadly the most wanted.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Hey guys?

I’m in the process of making a wish/prediction list for the Smash Fighter Pass/Extra DLC and I can’t decide which Namco & Capcom characters to use, I could use some suggestions.

Namco: Agumon, Lloyd, or Heihachi?

Capcom: Phoenix, Leon, or Monster Hunter?

Prince of All Cosmos and Phoenix Wright (I know The Prince isn't on your list but I'm gonna include him anyway xP)

 

[Ben Holt]

Love Spyro over Crash, but I couldn't in good conscious have a fighters pass with back to back Activision characters. And even I can't deny Crash is sadly the most wanted.

I know Crash is bigger, but Crash without Spyro is like peanut butter without jelly.
I honestly see it happening like this:
Crash revealed in March Direct. Announced for Summer release. E3 rolls around and announces Spyro at the beginning of the Direct. Spyro is shadow dropped with Crash Bandicoot on that very day. Then at the end of E3, announce Dante for a Fall release.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Hey guys?

I’m in the process of making a wish/prediction list for the Smash Fighter Pass/Extra DLC and I can’t decide which Namco & Capcom characters to use, I could use some suggestions.

Namco: Agumon, Lloyd, or Heihachi?

Capcom: Phoenix, Leon, or Monster Hunter?

>Personal wish/prediction list
>Asking users on the thread for input

Isn't that paradoxical?

Why not just leave those spots open and discuss the different Capcom/Namco characters you would like to see/see as likely?

 

[GoodGrief741]

My thought for a long time was that the first indie will either be Shantae or Reimu. Both are franchises whose popularity cannot simply be written off as a novelty at this point. (Steve is no longer indie, so I don't count him as such). This is something that I've always felt holds indies back. They make a big splash, then tend to disappear. Just look at Shovel Knight. He had a big boon in popularity and almost nothing has happened with his series for years and its still in nearly the same situation it was in 2014.

Shovel Knight's still getting new campaigns though. Plus I'd hardly say it's disappeared when it still kicks Shantae and Touhou's butts when it comes to iconic status. I don't think it's impact can be debated at this point.

Like, would you say Undertale "made a big splash and disappeared" for the four years between it and Deltarune?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This is something that I've always felt holds indies back. They make a big splash, then tend to disappear. Just look at Shovel Knight. He had a big boon in popularity and almost nothing has happened with his series for years and its still in nearly the same situation it was in 2014.

Currently released:
Shovel Knight: Shovel of Hope (First release)
Shovel Knight: Plague of Shadows
Shovel Knight: Treasure Trove (A compilation of all four campaigns on more consoles than just the 3Ds)
Shovel Knight: Specter of Torment
Nearly complete:
Shovel Knight: King of Cards
Shovel Knight Showdown
In Development:
Shovel Knight: Dungeon Duels (A board game)
Shovel Knight Dig

Combine this with Shovel Knight cameoing in pretty much every other indie game I'd hardly call that disappearing. It may not be as mainstream as it was before, but I think Yacht Club's got a pretty decent franchise going here. And that's even with giving early purchasers five games for the price of 1 (and it was like $10 when it came out).

 

[Nquoid]

My thought for a long time was that the first indie will either be Shantae or Reimu. Both are franchises whose popularity cannot simply be written off as a novelty at this point. (Steve is no longer indie, so I don't count him as such). This is something that I've always felt holds indies back. They make a big splash, then tend to disappear. Just look at Shovel Knight. He had a big boon in popularity and almost nothing has happened with his series for years and its still in nearly the same situation it was in 2014.

Both of those franchises that exemplify the Smash echo chamber the most to me. Shantae's popularity seems to stem entirely from Matt Bozon campaigning hard. The games make very little splash when they come out, and I only see the character brought up in the context in Smash. The conversation around Shovel Knight quite often centres on the game, even if I do think its indie star has faded just by virtue of being 5 years old at this point.

As for Reimu, in a world where the Smash community lost their minds because a character from SNK made it in, that will a billion times worse. Even as a pick to cater to Japan it would be a baffling decision considering the franchise has practically zero play outside of Japan and even then the conversations I've seen seem to focus on the music rather than the games and a certain subset of fans really obsessively drawing fan art (and that is where I stop commenting on that)

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

There is indeed a larger variety of options out there that can appeal to as wide of an audience as possible, and I think Nintendo and Sakurai realize that if this current pass is anything to go by. It's always good to consider those options and what they can bring to the table.

Like you said, characters that can appeal to new genres or demographics not only can pull in a larger audience, but can also include a more diverse variety of options into the game. I think it might do the community good to explore those options further, at least we wouldn't be stuck discussing the same handful of characters and be surprised when another "out of left field/Sakurai pick" character comes along...

But that's just me.

You mean like Professor Layton?

I'm on to you Curious Villager

Being serious, I completely agree. The Smash fanbase, this thread included, loves to speculate around a core set of like, 5-10 characters at any given time, with those characters changing depending on who gets in and what popular hearsay is going around. We ought to consider much more than the popular first and third party picks of the time, lest we get blindsided by another Simon, Joker, or Terry.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...lest we get blindsided by another Simon, Joker, or Terry.

Isn't that a good thing though? The character choices can be more surprising that way. (Though discussing more than just the norm makes for more interesting conversation.)

 

[perfectchaos83]

Shovel Knight's still getting new campaigns though. Plus I'd hardly say it's disappeared when it still kicks Shantae and Touhou's butts when it comes to iconic status. I don't think it's impact can be debated at this point.

Like, would you say Undertale "made a big splash and disappeared" for the four years between it and Deltarune?

I don't think being an icon nearly matters as much as people seem to think it does and it's very subjective on what is and isn't an icon.

"Disappeared" is a bit hyperbolic. To me, Shovel Knight and Undertale are both novelties at this point in the history. Their futures as franchises are unknowns. The thing with Smash is that I've always found the rosters to be timeless and I feel Sakurai has never been the kind to add characters because they are popular right here and now. To give an example of where my thinking is going, it's similar to why Leonardo DiCaprio took forever to win the best actor Oscar despite being nominated several years in a row. It's moreso that the award itself isn't a "here in the moment" award and it's much more of a life time achievement award. It's why more storied actors get it far more than younger ones.

Currently released:
Shovel Knight: Shovel of Hope (First release)
Shovel Knight: Plague of Shadows
Shovel Knight: Treasure Trove (A compilation of all four campaigns on more consoles than just the 3Ds)
Shovel Knight: Specter of Torment
Nearly complete:
Shovel Knight: King of Cards
Shovel Knight Showdown
In Development:
Shovel Knight: Dungeon Duels (A board game)
Shovel Knight Dig

Combine this with Shovel Knight cameoing in pretty much every other indie game I'd hardly call that disappearing. It may not be as mainstream as it was before, but I think Yacht Club's got a pretty decent franchise going here. And that's even with giving early purchasers five games for the price of 1 (and it was like $10 when it came out).

At the end of the day, this is still one game fulfilling promises from the original Kickstarter.

 

[Curious Villager]

You mean like Professor Layton?
View attachment 239897
I'm on to you Curious Villager

Being serious, I completely agree. The Smash fanbase, this thread included, loves to speculate around a core set of like, 5-10 characters at any given time, with those characters changing depending on who gets in and what popular hearsay is going around. We ought to consider much more than the popular first and third party picks of the time, lest we get blindsided by another Simon, Joker, or Terry.

Spoiler

But yeah, some more options in terms of variety would be nice, plus would give us more to talk about rather than lingering onto the same handful of characters all the time, we wouldn't be blindsided by the Terry's and Hero's as much either as a result..

 

[perfectchaos83]

As for Reimu, in a world where the Smash community lost their minds because a character from SNK made it in, that will a billion times worse.

In all honesty, it's what the fanbase deserves.

Even as a pick to cater to Japan it would be a baffling decision considering the franchise has practically zero play outside of Japan and even then the conversations I've seen seem to focus on the music rather than the games and a certain subset of fans really obsessively drawing fan art (and that is where I stop commenting on that)

It's incredibly popular in China and South Korea. It's western fanbase is also largely underplayed much like DQ's was. It's outside the Smash bubble, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the western anime community that doesn't know what Touhou is.

 

[DevaAshera]

One thing that cannot be debated is that while the Zelda series has many one-off characters, the series also has many mainstay RACES that have yet to be represented in any significant sense. By focusing only on Hylians, Smash is missing out on much of the wonderful diversity that makes Hyrule and other Zelda locales feel so alive.

I'm talking Gorons. I'm talking Zora's. I'm talking Deku Scrubs, Ritos, Gerudos (even though Gabondorf technically is Gerudo lol), Kokiri, Koroks, Fairies, heck even those Mole men from Skyward Sword.

At a certain point, proper Zelda representation would include a playable character from one of the non-human races that make Zelda so distinct and so fun to explore in the first place.

Who cares if it's a one off character? We need a Darunia, or a Ruto, or a Kass. This is the untapped potential of the Zelda series, and the main reason the current playable fighter representation feels so lacking, even while Link and Zelda get consistent makeovers. Makeovers mean next to nothing when so much is still missing.

I think including a character just to check off a race from the series would be a bad idea and incredibly forced. Like, I love Saria, I love Medli, but having them in Smash? I'd rather not..I'd rather have more impactful characters rather then one included just to show the diversity of fantasy races in a series.

HOWEVER, I think they could pull a Pokémon Trainer by radically revamping Young Link into his Majora's Mask version and swapping one of his moves for Mask Transformations with Deku, Zora, and Goron in addition to his default Hylian form along with Fierce Deity Link as his Final Smash.

 

[Nquoid]

In all honesty, it's what the fanbase deserves.

It's incredibly popular in China and South Korea. It's western fanbase is also largely underplayed much like DQ's was. It's outside the Smash bubble, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the western anime community that doesn't know what Touhou is.

Thing is, it's always statements like that that seem a little vague. I know Touhou is huge at Comiket and it won that Guiness record in 2010 (and I know some fans say the peak of the community was around 2009?) but I'm really intrigued how much of the fervour is just maintained by a really fervent fanbase. Like is Touhou ZUN's only job? When he sells the new games at Comiket does he come with thousands of copies or is if mostly downloaded?

Touhou clearly has a dedicated fanbase, but it also seems like it's far and away the most niche series I see brought up in speculation and I don't think its unfair to say that a lot of its impact hasn't necessarily been the games.