Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Flyboy]

I know it's super unlikely we'll ever get a Sony character but I would love PaRappa the Rapper. Literally the protagonist of the first ever rhythm game and a unique and fun character. Colorful, humorous, and super nostalgic for me. I know Rhythm Heaven or Hatsune Miku??? would probably be in first as a rhythm character but I can dream.

 

[KatKit]

I'm down for PaRappa if Sony is. I was stoked when he was in PSABR.

On the subject of Sega reps, since April, I went from barely knowing what Sakura Wars was to highly anticipating the upcoming soft reboot and hoping Sakura Shinguji got in Smash. The support thread here was hella informative.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Arle is one of my most-wanted. Puyo Puyo Tetris is one of my favorite games ever and she's so fun and cute! That said, I would pop huge for Eggman. It's hard to decide which I want more honestly since I love Sonic as well but Arle wins out just by virtue of being from an unrepped series.

Kiryu or Majima would be super cool too. Kiryu represents an unrepped archetype and Yakuza is huge right now.

I don't have any attachment to the series, but a Yakuza character moveset would be a lot of fun from what i've seen from the game. Hitting people over the head with a bicyle sounds like fun.

I guess this could apply to any beat em up character, but I love improvised or unconventional weapons in fighting games and especially in smash bros with how slapstick the combat is. I still laugh every time someone gets hit on the head with a bowling ball with villager's forward smash.

 

[SNEKeater]

Fate has called me again to this very thread. Now for my banter for today before I sleep. And no, it won't be about female character debates...yet:

Isn't anyone tired of seeing the same picks over and over again?

Now, before you do your callouts, I'd like to say that the newcomer speculation is super homogenous. Like, every day, I wake up, and all I see are the same old songs and dances. Haya this, Dante that, Doom Slayer this, Geno that.

Like, can't anyone think of someone else? It's getting boring to see myself debate against the same characters.

Also a little hot take before I sleep: If you want Dante, you want to break the game. You want another Bayo, and you want another Smash 4 EVO 2018 Grand Finals that we don't speak of again. As much as you would want stuff for the casuals...think of the competitive party here, like me.

I mean, speculation is what it is. People usually talk about the same companies and characters, and hey, that's normal. If we do a poll like: who character you think has real chances to enter Smash? Arle Nadja or, I don't know, a Resident Evil character? I think the answer it's obvious.

There's nothing wrong if some franchises or characters are seen as likely newcomers. I agree about you say: in speculation we could talk about other characters that usually don't get the same attention. But people will talk about characters they feel as likely at the moment. I mean, we could talk about Gex, a character based on Tetris (which would be amazing btw), Nathan Drake or Goku, but talking about characters like these would probably end soon because people in general don't expect them to be in Smash.
In a certain way we could say that speculating is futile and a waste of time, because we don't have any clues about what character will be the next until we get a official announcement from Nintendo or a credible leak, like happened with Hero.

In my opinion, yeah, usually there are about 10 characters that are prominent in this thread, but a lot of other characters are frequently mentioned even if they don't dominate the thread. In fact I would say that based on my experience Smashboards is the place where I see most variety when it comes to the topic of speculation and possible newcomers.

About Dante, he's my most wanted character and nope, I don't want to break the game. I don't play Smash in a competitive way but I usually follow the competitive scene of Smash and I follow some Smash related channels. If Dante happens and he's broken that's not his fault, that would be Sakura's fault (and his team, of course). I mean, ANY character can be broken, maybe you think Dante would be dangerous because he's from the same genre as Bayo and yeah, Dante has a LOT of weapons and abilities, I guess that could mean Sakurai should be a bit more careful if he decides to put him in the game but in the end, if Dante (or any other character) is broken the character isn't responsible for that.
You could argue that after what happened with Bayo Sakurai has real experience about adding a character from an action game based on combos, he will probably the first worried about having a Bayo 2.0 so I honestly believe that Sakurai would do a great job in all aspects if he decides to put Dante or another similar character.

I mean, in the end there's always people saying that the newest DLC fighter is op and that will continue to happen with Terry and fighter 5.

Also I want to say that I'm saying all this in a good mood! Just in case haha

 

[Dee Dude]

Sans being a Mii costume and Shovel Knight as an assist trophy despite their popularity does make me wonder how Sakurai views indie characters. These two characters come from some of the best selling indie games around, yet neither of them made it to playable status. Could Sakurai only be reserving fighters for triple A publishers? It could also be a cost related issue that prevents indie developers from getting their characters to be fighters.

If so then we'll probably only see indie characters appear as Mii costumes so here is a small list of indie characters and what mii costume they could be.

Brawlers: Shantae... that's all who I can think of
Swordfighters: Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, Hat Kid, etc.
Gunners: Reimu, Quote, Cuphead, etc.

I know it’s technically not a rule at this point, but we’re basically getting through this same charade where people overstate and say how extremely likely an Indie character is to make the roster based on their legacy and popularity, but once they actually appear in the game as something else, everyone goes a complete 180° on how them being in the game was a complete and huge honor.

Pre-August Direct: “Shovel Knight is a lock! Nintendo loves him, he’s in several cameos, has his own amiibo, and heavy Ballot presence!

*confirmed as AT* “No, guys you don’t understand how much of a big deal this is for Yacht Games, it’s an absolute honor he’s in the game!”

Pre-November Direct: “Shantae will definitely get in, she has massive history with Nintendo and huge fan support!”

*confirmed as Spirit* “WayForward is really happy to have her in the game, it’s an honor!”

Pre September Direct: “Sans isn’t just a meme, Undertale is extremely popular in Japan! An UT rep is more likely then you think!”

*Mii costume confirmed* “Wow, from someone who to went from an Earthbound ROM hacker to being presented in one of the biggest games of all time!? What a complete honor!”

You catch my drift here? Who’s to say this same thing won’t happen to characters like Steve, Reimu, Hollow Knight etc, and people will make exceptions on how much MUCH bigger and iconic they are then other indie and how “T-they’ll get a playable character in this time for sure!”

Again, I can be proven wrong but I’m just going to assume that only triple A mainstream characters will be given full playable fighter status.

 

[Nquoid]

TBF, Undertale and SK are like, barely getting out of the "single game" territory at this point in time, right? Name me one of the third party characters with such a "compact" legacy, maybe Bayonetta, though she was also supposedly a ballot request? (Geno, if he gets in, may be a special case too?). Minecraft kinda has its thing in not needing a sequel (alongside some spin-offs, though all but one of those are currently upcoming), and Shantae can at the very least say she's had a series of games put out.

That is true, but then in some ways that makes it more impressive that Shovel Knight and Sans from Undertale have this insane legacy already. Apparently more than 50% of Shovel Knight's sales have come from Nintendo consoles, and then rather than making 4 separate games, they've just stacked content on top of the original release. Shovel Knight certainly isn't a series in the traditional sense, but it's definitely consistently released content.

And then Deltarune Chapter 1 released last year, so Toby Fox is certainly not leaving that universe alone.

A part of it is how relatively new these games are. Some of the games you mentioned are less than five years old and don't have a proper sequel to their initial title, we don't know what their future outlook might be. Touhou is over 20 years old with over 25 official games and it's still growing and still getting new fans to this day. It impacted the doujin scene (which you could say is the Japanese equivalent of western indies) very heavily that it became an important part of the doujin history in Japan. The Touhou series has a legacy, is still popular, and is still getting new titles. At the time of writing this post the Touhou series has had 10 official games released overseas with more on the way, and even before these games were released in the west there already was a sizeable western fanbase who were acquainted with the series.

I can understand how an outsider might see the reasoning of "popularity in Japan" quite dubious, but Touhou is something special. I recommend watching this 10 min. documentary on Touhou. Just to give some basic insight on what it exactly is.

Being a video game franchise made by a single person, with virtually zero advertising, spread mostly by word-of-mouth, while still being as popular as it is, makes it very unique as a video game franchise. If you want physical evidence of its popularity, Touhou eclipses every other franchise when it comes to fan-made artwork and music remixes. Fact of the matter is, you really can't directly compare it to other series with standard parameters like review scores, or sales, because to many people, Touhou means so much more than that. Whether this makes it deserving to be honored in Smash is entirely subjective. I think it definitely does.

Book marking that documentary for later so thank you.

But I think both of these kind of nail why I'm not 100% sold on Touhou and Reimu for Smash. Like I don't want to discredit how important or large Touhou obviously is to a lot of people. Creating anything that inspires people to make their own content is obviously doing something correct.

But we're talking about the doujin scene which is certainly not limited to fan made games and the amount of artwork and remixes. Which kind of skirts around whether or not the games are the focal point. I've been following gaming most of my life, and coming into Smash speculation was the first time I'd seen Reimu's name brought up, and she is brought up very frequently. And i'm not a complete idiot when it comes to Japanese media, but I definitely skew mainstream. I can tell my Miyazaki from my Anno and my Hosoda from my Kon. But from what I can tell, Touhou has been more adopted by the anime community (internationally at least) rather than the video game community? Which is why I don't think Reimu has a reasonable shot. Her legacy is huge, but apart from Undertale, I can't see the indelible mark that Touhou has left on the gaming community, even a lot of the fan games are brazen when they expliciltiy say that they're takes on Symphony of the Night.

The franchise is obviously emblematic of a huge culture shift in Japan, and has touched thousands of people. But I do think it's an example of a really fervent fanbase really helping her esteem, and that if she was added to Smash it would be met with a collective shrug of about 13 million people who own the game.

 

[YsDisciple]

Good morning ladies and gents! Aside from the recurring speculated names for the remaining Fighters Pass spot, and the upcoming extra DLC fighters afterwards, I thought of bringing up some names that aren't mentioned as often. I'm not saying that they have good chances of making it into the roster; simply that, they are characters too and... hey, you never know.

Capcom
Ryu (Breath of Fire)
Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers) (ok, I've seen her name a bit)
Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins)
Hidemitsu Samanosuke (Onimusha)
Strider Hiryu (Strider)

Bandai Namco
Klonoa (Klonoa)
Gilgamesh (The Tower of Druaga)
Valkyrie (Valkyrie)

Konami/Hudson Soft
Master Higgins (Adventure Island)
Kid Dracula (Kid Dracula)
TwinBee (TwinBee)

SEGA/Atlus
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles)
Aiai (Super Monkey Ball)
Ulala (Space Channel 5)
Nights (Nights into Dreams)
Beat (Jet Set Radio)
Alex Kidd (Alex Kidd)
Slash Kamei (Snowboard Kids)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)

Square Enix
Musashi (Brave Fencer Musashi)
Neku Sakuraba (The World Ends With You)
Maxim (Lufia)
Magnus Gallant (Ogre Battle 64)

Aaaaand those are all I could think of at the moment hailing from series which have not yet been represented in SSBU.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Good morning ladies and gents! Aside from the recurring speculated names for the remaining Fighters Pass spot, and the upcoming extra DLC fighters afterwards, I thought of bringing up some names that aren't mentioned as often. I'm not saying that they have good chances of making it into the roster; simply that, they are characters too and... hey, you never know.

Capcom
Ryu (Breath of Fire)
Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers) (ok, I've seen her name a bit)
Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins)
Hidemitsu Samanosuke (Onimusha)
Strider Hiryu (Strider)

Bandai Namco
Klonoa (Klonoa)
Gilgamesh (The Tower of Druaga)
Valkyrie (Valkyrie)

Konami/Hudson Soft
Master Higgins (Adventure Island)
Kid Dracula (Kid Dracula)
TwinBee (TwinBee)

SEGA/Atlus
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles)
Aiai (Super Monkey Ball)
Ulala (Space Channel 5)
Nights (Nights into Dreams)
Beat (Jet Set Radio)
Alex Kidd (Alex Kidd)
Slash Kamei (Snowboard Kids)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)

Square Enix
Musashi (Brave Fencer Musashi)
Neku Sakuraba (The World Ends With You)
Maxim (Lufia)
Magnus Gallant (Ogre Battle 64)

Aaaaand those are all I could think of at the moment hailing from series which have not yet been represented in SSBU.

Missed a couple:
Bandai Namco - Nightmare and KOS-MOS
Capcom - Amaterasu
Square Enix - anyone from Bravely Default or Octopath Traveler

...also, Bill Rizer (Contra) for Konami

Ps. Thank you for mentioning Neku

 

[GoodGrief741]

So you're telling me that instead of just whining around, I should go start a forum up in this joint. Because that is what I'm gonna do in the future. You're telling me I'm a whiner who just complains about everything. I'm not perfect, but please don't be too aggressive.

You took that simple suggestion way more aggressively than it was, but hey, if it pushes you to go ahead with your plans...

 

[TheAJJohnson]

OK. Let's inject some variation into this thread. I think we can get an interesting discussion going about Scorpion from Mortal Kombat.

Full disclaimer: Hanzo Hasashi, more recognizable by his code name, Scorpion, is, by far, my favorite video game character of all time. I feel like he and his franchise have quite a bit going for them, but I also understand that he has a lot of things working against him.

Do you think we have a chance of seeing Scorpion as a playable character? I have points to counter either side of the aisle, so let's start discussing! I'm excited to see what arguments are brought to the table.

 

[Deleted member]

Good morning ladies and gents! Aside from the recurring speculated names for the remaining Fighters Pass spot, and the upcoming extra DLC fighters afterwards, I thought of bringing up some names that aren't mentioned as often. I'm not saying that they have good chances of making it into the roster; simply that, they are characters too and... hey, you never know.

SEGA/Atlus
Aiai (Super Monkey Ball)

Super Monkey Ball 2 was a favorite of mine growing up, so I'd totally be down for Aiai in Smash. I also hope the HD remake of Banana Blitz does well enough for a new installment to the franchise cause God Knows it's long overdue.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

If Scorpion were to be added, I see little getting in the way of adding him gameplay-wise. Corrin and Ridley impale people in Smash all the time, so Scorpion chain-knifing people into the blastzone wouldn't be too difficult to translate.

I think the only issue is that hyper-blood and gore is kind of integral to Mortal Kombat's identity. Unlike DOOM, which without the demon guts could still fall back on being the grandfather of first-person shooters, MK was designed specifically to stand out against the likes of Street Fighter. In my opinion then, Scorpion's moveset, while not necessarily spine-rippingly horrific, would need to at least be the most brutal fighter in the game.

 

[GoodGrief741]

OK. Let's inject some variation into this thread. I think we can get an interesting discussion going about Scorpion from Mortal Kombat.

Full disclaimer: Hanzo Hasashi, more recognizable by his code name, Scorpion, is, by far, my favorite video game character of all time. I feel like he and his franchise have quite a bit going for them, but I also understand that he has a lot of things working against him.

Do you think we have a chance of seeing Scorpion as a playable character? I have points to counter either side of the aisle, so let's start discussing! I'm excited to see what arguments are brought to the table.

As a fellow fan, I would say I'm willing to compromise on the bloof and gore to get him in Smash, and moveset isn't an issue, but Mortal Kombat is very unpopular in Japan. As much as Sakurai claims he's doing a crossover for all games, Smash is clearly Japanese centric, so I think that more than anything might hurt his chances.

But I'd love for it to happen. Ryu vs. Scorpion is something that I need to see during my lifetime.

 

[DarthEnderX]

"Indie" does not mean one person made it.

It damn sure doesn't mean 50 people made it either.

All it means is "independent" i.e. something is independently owned

That means everything owned by Capcom, or SquareEnix or namco is "indie"

Personally I think trying to gatekeep who's indie and who isn't based on number thresholds is a bad road to go down on.

I think it beats your definition, which makes most games ever created "indie" game and is a gross misuse of the term.

I was bored so I decided to make dlc wishlist, so it's not a prediction, just some characters I think would be cool.

Fighter Pass 5# Doomslayer

Fighter Pass 2:
Geno
Leon/Jill
Shantae
Ryu Hayabusa
Crash

Fighter Pass 3:
Lloyd
Spyro
Sora
Phoenix Wright/Dante (not sure which namco rep to go for)
Rayman

And for ****s and giggles I'm going to throw in Fawful as a random extra character.

It's weird that your "not a prediction" wishlist has every most predicted character on it. Almost in order...

 

[SKX31]

If Scorpion were to be added, I see little getting in the way of adding him gameplay-wise. Corrin and Ridley impale people in Smash all the time, so Scorpion chain-knifing people into the blastzone wouldn't be too difficult to translate.

I think the only issue is that hyper-blood and gore is kind of integral to Mortal Kombat's identity. Unlike DOOM, which without the demon guts could still fall back on being the grandfather of first-person shooters, MK was designed specifically to stand out against the likes of Street Fighter. In my opinion then, Scorpion's moveset, while not necessarily spine-rippingly horrific, would need to at least be the most brutal fighter in the game.

His Spear, iconic as it is, would not be the only thing Scorpion relies on. Teleports / flying in from the other side of the screen and hellfire for starters. And I'd argue you could make him the most brutal by just including the hit sounds or similar sounds. Doomguy's hits would function in a similar manner - when either of those two connect with their attacks, they hurt. Doesn't have to have blood or gore really.

And to preempt the "MK is banned in Japan" that is repeated here when MK comes up, I don't get the impression that the IP's banned. It's the games that are barred from official releases - due to CERO being really strict about their censorship practices. I could def. see a MK manga / anime being released over there when Japan has a long legacy of similar stuff (FotNS / Berserk most notably).

As a fellow fan, I would say I'm willing to compromise on the bloof and gore to get him in Smash, and moveset isn't an issue, but Mortal Kombat is very unpopular in Japan. As much as Sakurai claims he's doing a crossover for all games, Smash is clearly Japanese centric, so I think that more than anything might hurt his chances.

But I'd love for it to happen. Ryu vs. Scorpion is something that I need to see during my lifetime.

AFAIK MK does have an underground Japanese fanbase, so I believe it's more or less up to Sakurai. Heihachi or other Tekken reps are more likely a priority for him, but I don't get the impression he'd be against MK on principle. Not when we have Snake, Bayo and Joker in the game.

 

[Flyboy]

If we were to ever get Street Fighter versus Mortal Kombat, I think Smash is probably the best platform for it. Neither has to compromise on their mechanics, and fans of Mortal Kombat know that you can tone down an MK character and their violence without losing the soul of the character (See: Injustice). Ridley really showed that you can have a violent or scary character in Smash without resorting to blood and guts, and while I don't see that it ever could happen due to MK not being big in Japan, I would not be opposed at all. Scorpion is awesome and I've loved Mortal Kombat for a long time, so low-key I hope he's one of the upcoming DLC characters. Not in my most wanted or anything but I can't lie, having so many fighting game icons as a huge fighting game fan is like a pipe dream for me. Let's get Sol Badguy and Heihachi in here too!

 

[Sari]

Honestly I could see Scorpion becoming a mii costume. He's a pretty popular character in the West who has trouble being an actual playable character due to MK not being big in Japan. His face would even be mostly covered up so he could be a popular costume like Sans. Add in the iconic MK theme with his costume and you got yourself a prime mii costume candidate.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Not in my most wanted or anything but I can't lie, having so many fighting game icons as a huge fighting game fan is like a pipe dream for me. Let's get Sol Badguy and Heihachi in here too!

That's my mindset on fighting game characters as well. I love the genre and Smash is a good platform to get as many iconic fighting game franchises in one game.

 

[GoodGrief741]

His Spear, iconic as it is, would not be the only thing Scorpion relies on. Teleports / flying in from the other side of the screen and hellfire for starters. And I'd argue you could make him the most brutal by just including the hit sounds or similar sounds. Doomguy's hits would function in a similar manner - when either of those two connect with their attacks, they hurt. Doesn't have to have blood or gore really.

And to preempt the "MK is banned in Japan" that is repeated here when MK comes up, I don't get the impression that the IP's banned. It's the games that are barred from official releases - due to CERO being really strict about their censorship practices. I could def. see a MK manga / anime being released over there when Japan has a long legacy of similar stuff (FotNS / Berserk most notably).



AFAIK MK does have an underground Japanese fanbase, so I believe it's more or less up to Sakurai. Heihachi or other Tekken reps are more likely a priority for him, but I don't get the impression he'd be against MK on principle. Not when we have Snake, Bayo and Joker in the game.

Don't know how big that underground fanbase is or how relevant it is to the chances, but I'll take anything I can get.

Hell, anything similar to the following Touhou has in the West and I'm switching over to camp "not an issue".

 

[Flyboy]

That's my mindset on fighting game characters as well. I love the genre and Smash is a good platform to get as many iconic fighting game franchises in one game.

I know some people would complain, and I understand why, but I really wish Chun-Li and M. Bison could get in too. They're icons! Obviously I don't want all DLC to be fighting game characters and would especially love some non-fighters like Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton, Cooking Mama, or Style Savvy, but man...the fact that we could get Street Fighter vs. KOF vs. Tekken vs. Guilty Gear vs. Mortal Kombat is the stuff dreams are made of.

 

[IAmGiles]

Maybe an interesting topic of conversation, instead of just characters, would be discussing the framework by which characters are decided?

It seems to me that the only common thread in dlc so far is that the characters selected were Sakurai's "dream picks".

He has clearly stated that Persona 5 is one of his favorite games in recent years, and it clearly influenced ultimate's UI.

He has stated outright that he's always dreamed of dragon quest in smash and it was only just now possible.

He's wanted to add B&K since Melee, but that was made impossible by circumstance.

And King of fighters is one of Sakurai's favorite game series as it clearly influenced Smash Brothers.

Sakura has also clearly said that he doesn't like DLC in general.

It seems clear to me that Nintendo convinced Sakurai to continue making smash DLC by essentially promising him his wish list of characters.

That combined with his statement that he is making ultimate as a tribute to his mentor makes me think that the only thing that matters for DLC selection are characters that Sakurai has always wanted and make a big splash on their reveal, making ultimate as ultimate as it can be.

This makes me think that first party characters will not be added as DLC. Would Sakurai really be convinced to continue working so that he could add Isaac? Has Sakurai always dreamed of adding bandana waddle Dee but never had the chance until now? Would adding octoling as an echo fighter truly expand iwata's legacy in a significant and impactful way?

No. I don't think so.

That's not to say that first party characters aren't deserving or would not be fun additions. Heck my Most wanted newcomers are all Zelda characters.

However, first-party characters will always be available to Sakurai should he choose to continue making Smash Brothers. With smash DLC Sakurai has been given the opportunity to make his once-in-a-lifetime pics become a reality. By definition, first-party characters are not once-in-a-lifetime picks, they are always available.

The question that should fuel further speculation then, is which characters and which series are Sakurai's own pipedream picks that he can only add to ultimate?

As far as I'm aware, the only character left that Sakurai himself has stated he would like to add to Smash Brothers is Geno. Therefore I think Geno has a pretty good chance of being added, maybe the greatest chance out of any character.

The question then is which other series has Sakurai praised to the level of persona, dragon quest, and King of fighters?

To my knowledge he has "praised" Minecraft, Dark Souls, and even Resident Evil.

Heck the only statement so I can find from him about Resident Evil is that Resident Evil Revelations was the most impressive game on the 3DS. He even said many things he saw in Resident Evil Revelations helped inspire some things in Kid Icarus uprising. Jill is the protagonist of Resident Evil Revelations therefore I think she has a pretty good likelihood of being added.

He has also mentioned that Doom has been influential in general. However it's hard to say that Doom influenced him. So I don't know how likely Doom is.

I also have never seen any statement from him about Ninja Gaiden, so that makes Hayabusa feel less likely in my opinion.

So what does everyone think of this way of framing the discussion? I would be particularly interested in seeing any Sakurai quotes that praise games or say that they're one of his favorite games, as that would really help drive speculation in my opinion.

 

[cj.]

To be honest I feel that "not being popular in Japan" is not a good argument
Smash was created in Japan, but that doesn't mean they should focus completely on them, Smash has a huge community outside of Japan that gives Nintendo good profits
And most MK characters can be perfectly represented without the use of blood or extreme violence
Example: Scorpion in Injustice, Raiden & Sub-Zero in Injustice 2 or Johnny Cage in WWE Inmortals

 

[Sour Supreme]

I know some people would complain, and I understand why, but I really wish Chun-Li and M. Bison could get in too. They're icons! Obviously I don't want all DLC to be fighting game characters and would especially love some non-fighters like Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton, Cooking Mama, or Style Savvy, but man...the fact that we could get Street Fighter vs. KOF vs. Tekken vs. Guilty Gear vs. Mortal Kombat is the stuff dreams are made of.

Don't know why Bison isn't brought up more as another SF rep. He's definetely my choice, puts another villain on the roster.

Good morning ladies and gents! Aside from the recurring speculated names for the remaining Fighters Pass spot, and the upcoming extra DLC fighters afterwards, I thought of bringing up some names that aren't mentioned as often. I'm not saying that they have good chances of making it into the roster; simply that, they are characters too and... hey, you never know.

Capcom
Ryu (Breath of Fire)
Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers) (ok, I've seen her name a bit)
Arthur (Ghosts 'n Goblins)
Hidemitsu Samanosuke (Onimusha)
Strider Hiryu (Strider)

Bandai Namco
Klonoa (Klonoa)
Gilgamesh (The Tower of Druaga)
Valkyrie (Valkyrie)

Konami/Hudson Soft
Master Higgins (Adventure Island)
Kid Dracula (Kid Dracula)
TwinBee (TwinBee)

SEGA/Atlus
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles)
Aiai (Super Monkey Ball)
Ulala (Space Channel 5)
Nights (Nights into Dreams)
Beat (Jet Set Radio)
Alex Kidd (Alex Kidd)
Slash Kamei (Snowboard Kids)
Vyse (Skies of Arcadia)

Square Enix
Musashi (Brave Fencer Musashi)
Neku Sakuraba (The World Ends With You)
Maxim (Lufia)
Magnus Gallant (Ogre Battle 64)

Aaaaand those are all I could think of at the moment hailing from series which have not yet been represented in SSBU.

Ooh I want Arthur man. Super Ghouls N Ghosts just came to Switch Online. That game was nutty hard for me as a kid, and I loved playing the dude in Marvel vs. Capcom.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Good morning ladies and gents! Aside from the recurring speculated names for the remaining Fighters Pass spot, and the upcoming extra DLC fighters afterwards, I thought of bringing up some names that aren't mentioned as often. I'm not saying that they have good chances of making it into the roster; simply that, they are characters too and... hey, you never know.

Bandai Namco
Klonoa (Klonoa)
Gilgamesh (The Tower of Druaga)
Valkyrie (Valkyrie)

Aaaaand those are all I could think of at the moment hailing from series which have not yet been represented in SSBU.

I'd throw in The Prince of All Cosmos as well (taunt cameo isn't stopping Heihachi speculation), along with an Idolm@ster rep.

Also thank you for mentioning Aiai, he'd make for a great second SEGA rep if the more popular options aren't chosen and he has a lot going for him!

In regards to Scorpion, even taking western catering into account how much would he actually sell in Japan as a DLC fighter. They could tone him down but still, he's essentially advertising a banned game series, which wouldn't make much sense. I know Nintendo takes the whole world into consideration but they do consider the Japanese market as they know it best, so even if it wasn't banned I don't see Scorpion selling too well as a character over there. Same goes for Doom Slayer and Tracer as they never caught on over there (I know there's a Japanese fan project but it's still very niche), though I don't want to beat a dead horse.

 

[Flyboy]

Maybe an interesting topic of conversation, instead of just characters, would be discussing the framework by which characters are decided?

It seems to me that the only common thread in dlc so far is that the characters selected were Sakurai's "dream picks".

He has clearly stated that Persona 5 is one of his favorite games in recent years, and it clearly influenced ultimate's UI.

He has stated outright that he's always dreamed of dragon quest in smash and it was only just now possible.

He's wanted to add B&K since Melee, but that was made impossible by circumstance.

And King of fighters is one of Sakurai's favorite game series as it clearly influenced Smash Brothers.

Sakura has also clearly said that he doesn't like DLC in general.

It seems clear to me that Nintendo convinced Sakurai to continue making smash DLC by essentially promising him his wish list of characters.

That combined with his statement that he is making ultimate as a tribute to his mentor makes me think that the only thing that matters for DLC selection are characters that Sakurai has always wanted and make a big splash on their reveal, making ultimate as ultimate as it can be.

This makes me think that first party characters will not be added as DLC. Would Sakurai really be convinced to continue working so that he could add Isaac? Has Sakurai always dreamed of adding bandana waddle Dee but never had the chance until now? Would adding octoling as an echo fighter truly expand iwata's legacy in a significant and impactful way?

No. I don't think so.

That's not to say that first party characters aren't deserving or would not be fun additions. Heck my Most wanted newcomers are all Zelda characters.

However, first-party characters will always be available to Sakurai should he choose to continue making Smash Brothers. With smash DLC Sakurai has been given the opportunity to make his once-in-a-lifetime pics become a reality. By definition, first-party characters are not once-in-a-lifetime picks, they are always available.

The question that should fuel further speculation then, is which characters and which series are Sakurai's own pipedream picks that he can only add to ultimate?

As far as I'm aware, the only character left that Sakurai himself has stated he would like to add to Smash Brothers is Geno. Therefore I think Geno has a pretty good chance of being added, maybe the greatest chance out of any character.

The question then is which other series has Sakurai praised to the level of persona, dragon quest, and King of fighters?

To my knowledge he has "praised" Minecraft, Dark Souls, and even Resident Evil.

Heck the only statement so I can find from him about Resident Evil is that Resident Evil Revelations was the most impressive game on the 3DS. He even said many things he saw in Resident Evil Revelations helped inspire some things in Kid Icarus uprising. Jill is the protagonist of Resident Evil Revelations therefore I think she has a pretty good likelihood of being added.

He has also mentioned that Doom has been influential in general. However it's hard to say that Doom influenced him. So I don't know how likely Doom is.

I also have never seen any statement from him about Ninja Gaiden, so that makes Hayabusa feel less likely in my opinion.

So what does everyone think of this way of framing the discussion? I would be particularly interested in seeing any Sakurai quotes that praise games or say that they're one of his favorite games, as that would really help drive speculation in my opinion.

I think this bears merit. One of the points brought up in the Joker thread before he was revealed was that it was pretty obvious that Sakurai loved Persona 5 and that smashes you on was clearly inspired by it. This makes me excited because one of my other pipedream most wanted picks, 2B, is in the exact same boat as Joker, as Sakurai is a huge fan of the Nier series so she could be possible especially when you consider that Classic Mode's end credits game is probably inspired directly by the latest game, NieR Automata, as well.

It's also has me excited for characters like Travis Touchdown, Heihachi, or Lloyd Irving. I don't think it's the end-all-be-all of speculation, but it's worth considering if nothing else.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Nintendo has been said to pick all the DLC for Ultimate, not Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

In regards to Scorpion, even taking western catering into account how much would he actually sell in Japan as a DLC fighter. They could tone him down but still, he's essentially advertising a banned game series, which wouldn't make much sense. I know Nintendo takes the whole world into consideration but they do consider the Japanese market as they know it best, so even if it wasn't banned I don't see Scorpion selling too well as a character over there. Same goes for Doom Slayer and Tracer as they never caught on over there (I know there's a Japanese fan project but it's still very niche), though I don't want to beat a dead horse.

Wait, Overwatch isn't popular in Japan?

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Wait, Overwatch isn't popular in Japan?

Being a shooter didn't help, but apparently it didn't do too well. I have a friend in Japan who plays it but overall it never made it big.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The whole "is WayForward and indie company" thing has been bugging me so I tried to look up what exactly constitutes for an indie developer. Surprise surprise, it depends on who you ask. The only definition that I found to be somewhat concrete is from (ugh) Wikipedia.

The definition of what qualifies for independent video game development is vague. The term itself bore out from the independent music arena, where "indie" refers to publishing music without using a major record label, such as using smaller independent labels or via self-publishing.[21] One simple definition, described by Laura Parker for GameSpot, says "independent video game development is the business of making games without the support of publisher".[22] However, this independent nature can be seen described from two broad directions.[23]

• Financial independence: In such situations, the developers have paid for the development and/or publication of the game themselves or from other funding sources such as crowd funding, and specifically without financial support of a large publisher.
• Independence of thought: In this case, the developers crafted their game without any oversight or directional influence by a third party such as a publisher.

The term "indie development" has been broadly applied to small development teams, realizing small and non-traditional non-AAA game titles on small budgets without financial help of a larger publisher.[21] Some notable instances of games that are generally considered "indie" but challenge this definition include:

• Journey was created by thatgamecompany, but had financial backing of Sony as well as publishing support. Kellee Santiago of thatgamecompany believes that they are an independent studio because they were able to innovate on their game without Sony's involvement.[21]
• Bastion, similarly, was developed by Supergiant Games, but with publishing by Warner Bros. Entertainment, primarily to avoid difficulties with the certification process on Xbox Live.[24] Greg Kasavin of Supergiant notes they consider their studio indie as they lack any parent company.[21]
• The Witness was developed by Jonathan Blow and his studio Thekla, Inc. Though self-funded and published, the game's development cost around $6 million and was priced at $40, in contrast to most indie games typically priced up to $20. Blow believed this type of game represented something between indie and AAA publishing.[25]
• No Man's Sky was developed by Hello Games, though with publishing but non-financial support from Sony; the game on release had a price equal to a typical AAA title. Sean Murray of Hello Games believes that because they are still a small team and the game is highly experimental that they consider themselves indie.[26]

Games that are not as large as most triple-A games, but are developed by larger independent studios with or without publisher backing and that can apply triple-A design principles and polish due to the experience of the team, have sometimes been called "triple-I" games, reflecting the middle ground between these extremes.[27][28]

To me it seems that if you aren't a AAA company, and aren't owned by one, then you're an indie dev. However, what makes you a AAA dev is unclear, and we just know that the likes of Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Konami, Sega, Capcom, and Namco are AAA.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

One last thought on Touhou before the conversation shifts (even more than it has. whoops). The main reasons for Touhou's rise back in the late 2000's are the characters, music, and fan works, especially memes. For every meme that has a Touhou version, there is an originally-Touhou meme that has been iterated upon. Of course, a lot of people upon seeing this type of content probably went down the rabbit hole and discovered the game origins, while many didn't. There's nothing in, say, Cirno's Perfect Math Class that inherently indicates that it's a derivative work of a game, certainly not if you're looking for it. So because the spread was by non-game means it never had a chance to be ingrained in the gaming community and was folded into the anime community by necessity, though the Touhou fandom itself has always remained quite distinct. Not that the games haven't done well for themselves because they have, it's just... the fanbase is bigger than the games, I guess. Even still in the Touhou community there are gatekeeping, with people who haven't played the games being labeled "secondaries." And honestly, I can't blame them too much. Today Touhou games are extremely available, with the 10 most recent on steam and 15.5 (official fighting game spinoff) coming to the Switch some time next year, but back in the day it was difficult to source cds second hand and no western storefronts had the games

Spoiler: Yar Har

or you could've just pirated them

tl;dr, even if the games themselves remain relatively obscure, the influence of Touhou is felt far and wide. How much of that is due to gameplay, music, characters, or fan works is up for debate, but the series is relevant. I've seen Touhou called the interent's best kept secret and I think I'd agree. It's not always obvious when something is Touhou related, but once you're in the know you begin to see Touhou everywhere. As a quick example (and why I started typing this monstrosity) this emote is derived from Touhou.

I'd also like to say fan games are a long ways away from the days of knockoffs and reskins (Hi MegaMari and Super Marisa World!) and are now well made indie games in their own right: Luna Nights, Gensou Sky Drift, Azure Reflections, NitorInc, and the soon to be released 3rd Eye just to name a few. As well, many Touhou fan games have been released on the switch to moderate success, though none have matched the chart topping performance of Kobuto Burst Battle V (the game itself is mediocre, if fun, but is notable for debuting #2 behind Mario Odyssey during the latter's release month).

As an aside, I think people underestimate the power of let's players and other YouTubers on the success of games, particularly indie games whose advertising is typically much smaller than AAA games. I think the success of Shovel Knight, Undertale, FNaF and other indie darlings can be largely attributed to the likes of Markiplier, Pewdiepie, and the Game Grumps. These creators are impactful because they're basically word-of-mouth endorsements, but from trusted personalities in entertaining packages that can go viral. Also, many creators never want to be behind a trend, so if a gameplay vid does well on one of the channels they all dog pile on the game. Nothing to do with a games quality, but some games just happen to make the rounds. Contrast that with some other games and, well... for Azure Striker Gunvolt, aside from Game Soup (a small channel that does a lot of indie games, check 'em out!) the only notable gameplay channel I can think of is a GDQ stream. Shantae and the Pirates Curse had a full playthru on Grumpcade and Alpharad has a Half Genie Hero vid, but both of those came years after the original release and in the case of the former didn't involve Dan or Arin. As for Touhou, Mike Matei streamed Touhou 6 and 8, Vinny from Vinesauce played a bunch of fan games, and Alpharad mentioned Touhou in both his Mario 3 speedrun vid and in the RoA workshop vid where he played as Sakuya, oh and I guess that one time Pewdiepie said Touhou music was "lit" but not much else. Gaijin Goomba was actually gonna do a vid on Luna Nights but ultimately decided against it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

To me it seems that if you aren't a AAA company, and aren't owned by one, then you're an indie dev.

Which is why it's ridiculous, because it means the vast majority of video games are indie. And seems like a disservice to the people the term was intended to be used for.

 

[Flyboy]

Nintendo has been said to pick all the DLC for Ultimate, not Sakurai.

It seems to be a lot more collaborative than we thought. Taking what we know about Hero for example it seems Nintendo asked for a Square character and the two decided on DQ. The parties then sat down with Squeenix who originally suggested Slime, but then they all came to the conclusion of Hero. Square then suggested eight different Heroes (Sakurai was only going to do Three and Eleven) but only four got in. Either way it appears that all parties have control over various steps of the process and that includes Sakurai himself.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe an interesting topic of conversation, instead of just characters, would be discussing the framework by which characters are decided?

It seems to me that the only common thread in dlc so far is that the characters selected were Sakurai's "dream picks".

He has clearly stated that Persona 5 is one of his favorite games in recent years, and it clearly influenced ultimate's UI.

He has stated outright that he's always dreamed of dragon quest in smash and it was only just now possible.

He's wanted to add B&K since Melee, but that was made impossible by circumstance.

And King of fighters is one of Sakurai's favorite game series as it clearly influenced Smash Brothers.

Sakura has also clearly said that he doesn't like DLC in general.

It seems clear to me that Nintendo convinced Sakurai to continue making smash DLC by essentially promising him his wish list of characters.

That combined with his statement that he is making ultimate as a tribute to his mentor makes me think that the only thing that matters for DLC selection are characters that Sakurai has always wanted and make a big splash on their reveal, making ultimate as ultimate as it can be.

This makes me think that first party characters will not be added as DLC. Would Sakurai really be convinced to continue working so that he could add Isaac? Has Sakurai always dreamed of adding bandana waddle Dee but never had the chance until now? Would adding octoling as an echo fighter truly expand iwata's legacy in a significant and impactful way?

No. I don't think so.

That's not to say that first party characters aren't deserving or would not be fun additions. Heck my Most wanted newcomers are all Zelda characters.

However, first-party characters will always be available to Sakurai should he choose to continue making Smash Brothers. With smash DLC Sakurai has been given the opportunity to make his once-in-a-lifetime pics become a reality. By definition, first-party characters are not once-in-a-lifetime picks, they are always available.

The question that should fuel further speculation then, is which characters and which series are Sakurai's own pipedream picks that he can only add to ultimate?

As far as I'm aware, the only character left that Sakurai himself has stated he would like to add to Smash Brothers is Geno. Therefore I think Geno has a pretty good chance of being added, maybe the greatest chance out of any character.

The question then is which other series has Sakurai praised to the level of persona, dragon quest, and King of fighters?

To my knowledge he has "praised" Minecraft, Dark Souls, and even Resident Evil.

Heck the only statement so I can find from him about Resident Evil is that Resident Evil Revelations was the most impressive game on the 3DS. He even said many things he saw in Resident Evil Revelations helped inspire some things in Kid Icarus uprising. Jill is the protagonist of Resident Evil Revelations therefore I think she has a pretty good likelihood of being added.

He has also mentioned that Doom has been influential in general. However it's hard to say that Doom influenced him. So I don't know how likely Doom is.

I also have never seen any statement from him about Ninja Gaiden, so that makes Hayabusa feel less likely in my opinion.

So what does everyone think of this way of framing the discussion? I would be particularly interested in seeing any Sakurai quotes that praise games or say that they're one of his favorite games, as that would really help drive speculation in my opinion.

I think that Sakurai likes a lot of games as demonstrated by the interviews and that this framework of yours seems to ignore that Nintendo is the one calling the shots for the DLC. There are probably many games that Sakurai likes that he has never mentioned before. This whole framework of yours just seems aimed to push certain characters.

Plus regarding Banjo, what he said it was that they were considered just like James Bond not planned or wanted. Unless there is a more recent interview that states something like this.

To be honest I feel that "not being popular in Japan" is not a good argument
Smash was created in Japan, but that doesn't mean they should focus completely on them, Smash has a huge community outside of Japan that gives Nintendo good profits
And most MK characters can be perfectly represented without the use of blood or extreme violence
Example: Scorpion in Injustice, Raiden & Sub-Zero in Injustice 2 or Johnny Cage in WWE Inmortals

The main issue with this argument is the double standard that comes with people complaining about characters that are not known in the west.

 

[SKX31]

Don't know how big that underground fanbase is or how relevant it is to the chances, but I'll take anything I can get.

Hell, anything similar to the following Touhou has in the West and I'm switching over to camp "not an issue".

It's definetely underground, but the best method is going to Youtube and searching for Mortal Kombat in katakana (モータルコンバット). Found quite a few vids that comfortably exceed 100K views.

Being a shooter didn't help, but apparently it didn't do too well. I have a friend in Japan who plays it but overall it never made it big.

Can confirm that it's not that big in Japan. It's niche, but the best evidence for that is arguably that there's no Overwatch League team in Tokyo (when there are in America, EU, China and Seoul) and the best Japanese players play in the Tier 2 circuit, not Overwatch League.

For example, this picture is of fans of Hangzhou Spark watching an Overwatch League game versus the Los Angeles Gladiators at a mall:

Now, the entry fee for OWL is $20 Million or so (might be higher now), so any prospective teams must be comfortable that they'll bring in a lot of fans on Game Day. That's not the case in Japan / Tokyo.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the success of Undertale and other indie darlings can be largely attributed to the likes of Markiplier...

Oh jeez. Markiplier wouldn't be the first name I'd bring up as a contributor to Undertale's success given the circumstances of his Undertale LP.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

Oh jeez. Markiplier wouldn't be the first name I'd bring up as a contributor to Undertale's success given the circumstances of his Undertale LP.

Uh oh, I'm actually not aware of this controversy, what happened?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Uh oh, I'm actually not aware of this controversy, what happened?

I think he was one of many LPers who fell victim to commenters DEMANDING he play it a certain way instead of discovering things on his own

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Which is why it's ridiculous, because it means the vast majority of video games are indie. And seems like a disservice to the people the term was intended to be used for.

True, though if taken literally it does make sense for the term to be pretty broad. To be honest I think the term "indie" is going to start to apply to any new startup, and the mentality behind them will be "once an indie, always an indie" until they're bought out, or become big enough to start buying other companies and/or crank out multiple large titles like Super Mario Odyssey and Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze simultaneously.

As far as WayForward is concerned, it looks like they had a huge batch of games from 2011-2014, however considering that has slowed way down now I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it was shovelware. 2015 has a lot of games as well but most of them are on phones. 2016 and 2017 have only three games total, and this year they put out four, but two of them are colabs, and one of them is a mobile game. Overall it looks like they're big enough to multitask and make a bunch of small games but they don't have the staff to make the bigger ones (simultaneously) without help. You could make the argument that that's too big to be in indie dev, but I don't think the definition is concrete enough to beat the argument of "they are because everyone says they are".

 

[Deleted member]

I think he was one of many LPers who fell victim to commenters DEMANDING he play it a certain way instead of discovering things on his own

Basically like those people who forced me to play the entire Doom series alongside some really specific hacks on specific difficulties.

I hate those kinds of people.

 

[He-Was-Number-Wan]

Shoutout to @Evil Trapezium for making this for me.
I think this is an ideal realistic set of Fighter's Passes to fill the 16 World of Light slots.
View attachment 239827

there’s not much of a chance for a 1st-party pass, BUTT

https://imgur.com/gallery/JWBUw8E