Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Evil Trapezium]

I know it’s technically not a rule at this point, but we’re basically getting through this same charade where people overstate and say how extremely likely an Indie character is to make the roster based on their legacy and popularity, but once they actually appear in the game as something else, everyone goes a complete 180° on how them being in the game was a complete and huge honor.

Pre-August Direct: “Shovel Knight is a lock! Nintendo loves him, he’s in several cameos, has his own amiibo, and heavy Ballot presence!

*confirmed as AT* “No, guys you don’t understand how much of a big deal this is for Yacht Games, it’s an absolute honor he’s in the game!”

Pre-November Direct: “Shantae will definitely get in, she has massive history with Nintendo and huge fan support!”

*confirmed as Spirit* “WayForward is really happy to have her in the game, it’s an honor!”

Pre September Direct: “Sans isn’t just a meme, Undertale is extremely popular in Japan! A UT rep is more likely then you think!”

*Mii costume confirmed* “Wow, from someone who to went from an Earthbound ROM hacker to being presented in one of the biggest games of all time!? What a complete honor!”

You catch my drift here? Who’s to say this same thing will happen to characters like Steve, Reimu, Hollow Knight etc, and people will make exceptions on how much MUCH bigger and iconic they are then other indie and how “T-they’ll get a playable character in this time for sure!”

Again, I can be proven wrong but I’m just going to assume that only triple AAA mainstream characters will be given full playable fighter status.

Minecraft Steve is fine as long as Microsoft is willing to double dip since they own the game. Characters like Reimu and Hollow Knight probably don't have a chance as a fighter in DLC. People seem to forget that making characters, stages and music arrangements costs money to make for everyone involved, Nintendo, Sakurai and the company they want a character from so you can imagine that it'd be quite an investment to hire people to code in moves, design the characters and stage, make new music arrangements, music licensing, etc. which is why I don't think any Indie character will become a fighter for DLC.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Ogre Battle 64 was great, but the main character wouldn't be anything special, unless they tried to incorporate the game's control of an entire army.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I think the success of Undertale and other indie darlings can be largely attributed to the likes of Markiplier...

I think you mean... Er... Five Nights at Freddy's. Undertale was no doubt making splashes throughout the Earthbound community before it gained exposure. Don't know if I would attribute its success to any content creators. In fact I have a hard time attributing its success to anyone other than the admirable dedication of one Toby Fox.

 

[IAmGiles]

I think that Sakurai likes a lot of games as demonstrated by the interviews and that this framework of yours seems to ignore that Nintendo is the one calling the shots for the DLC. There are probably many games that Sakurai likes that he has never mentioned before. This whole framework of yours just seems aimed to push certain characters.

Nintendo is not calling the shots entirely, even Sakurai further explained that Nintendo actually presented him with a list of possible characters, then Sakurai himself decides which of those are "workable" (which speaking as a creative person, often this means "I find this interesting enough to work on/be inspired by").

I am also tempted to push conspiracy level thinking here in saying that Sakurai may have claimed Nintendo had more impact than they actually did, just so he could shift the blame if people accused him of playing towards his own biases. He could say, "It's Nintendo's fault I got my dream characters, and you didn't get yours, stop heckling me." (Obviously this is a stretch lol, but I think it'd be a smart move on his part)

Just to restate, I think the only common thread between the DLC so far is that they are all Sakurai dream characters. Sure, each one could benefit Nintendo in some abstract way, but each one present an entirely different benefit to the company with no commonality between them. Thus, speculating according to what might benefit Nintendo is fruitless conversation since literally any character could benefit the company in some way.

Thus I think the only reasonable throughline is the idea that each character was inspiring enough to Sakurai to keep him working on them.

Also, to address the idea that my framework is built just to push certain characters: NONSENSE SIR.

I don't care for Geno personally, and I'd rather not have him in the game. But, I think he's possible within the framework

I also don't care for Minecraft, and I actively don't want Steve in the game. But I think he's likely

Resident Evil and Dark Souls are two of my favorite game series. I think the framework does help them.

My most wanted characters are Zelda characters. I don't think any of them are getting in.

I pose my framework not to support my own biases, but rather to guide speculation in a way that I think is most productive.

Also, I want people to start posting Sakurai quotes of him praising games, so I can get a sense of what's likely without having to personally scour the internet lol

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Thing is, it's always statements like that that seem a little vague. I know Touhou is huge at Comiket and it won that Guiness record in 2010 (and I know some fans say the peak of the community was around 2009?) but I'm really intrigued how much of the fervour is just maintained by a really fervent fanbase. Like is Touhou ZUN's only job? When he sells the new games at Comiket does he come with thousands of copies or is if mostly downloaded?

Touhou clearly has a dedicated fanbase, but it also seems like it's far and away the most niche series I see brought up in speculation and I don't think its unfair to say that a lot of its impact hasn't necessarily been the games.

This is the same community that supports:

• Isaac: from the long dead and oft forgotten Golden Sun series, which hasn't seen a new release in almost a decade
• Geno: a secondary protagonist from a game that released over 20 years ago and that didn't see a release in Europe until 10 years ago
• Mach Rider: an obscure NES character whose game released over 30 years ago and who hasn't seen a notable appearance since

While Touhou can definitely be seen as niche, it is far from the most niche series brought up in speculation.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

I think you mean... Er... Five Nights at Freddy's. Undertale was no doubt making splashes throughout the Earthbound community before it gained exposure. Don't know if I would attribute its success to any content creators. In fact I have a hard time attributing its success to anyone other than the admirable dedication of one Toby Fox.

I don't mean to diminish the work of indie devs, Toby Fox least of all; he put in an enormous amount of care into UT which shows in the game's polish and charm, and he's been rewarded for his efforts, gotten to meet his inspirations, and got sans into smash. He's living his best life. I just think let's players, content creators, what have you, are underappreciated in their role in getting the word out about smaller/niche games and boosting moderate successes to unthinkable heights.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Nintendo is not calling the shots entirely, even Sakurai further explained that Nintendo actually presented him with a list of possible characters, then Sakurai himself decides which of those are "workable" (which speaking as a creative person, often this means "I find this interesting enough to work on/be inspired by").

I am also tempted to push conspiracy level thinking here in saying that Sakurai may have claimed Nintendo had more impact than they actually did, just so he could shift the blame if people accused him of playing towards his own biases. He could say, "It's Nintendo's fault I got my dream characters, and you didn't get yours, stop heckling me." (Obviously this is a stretch lol, but I think it'd be a smart move on his part)

Just to restate, I think the only common thread between the DLC so far is that they are all Sakurai dream characters. Sure, each one could benefit Nintendo in some abstract way, but each one present an entirely different benefit to the company with no commonality between them. Thus, speculating according to what might benefit Nintendo is fruitless conversation since literally any character could benefit the company in some way.

Thus I think the only reasonable throughline is the idea that each character was inspiring enough to Sakurai to keep him working on them.

Also, to address the idea that my framework is built just to push certain characters: NONSENSE SIR.

I don't care for Geno personally, and I'd rather not have him in the game. But, I think he's possible within the framework

I also don't care for Minecraft, and I actively don't want Steve in the game. But I think he's likely

Resident Evil and Dark Souls are two of my favorite game series. I think the framework does help them.

My most wanted characters are Zelda characters. I don't think any of them are getting in.

I pose my framework not to support my own biases, but rather to guide speculation in a way that I think is most productive.

Also, I want people to start posting Sakurai quotes of him praising games, so I can get a sense of what's likely without having to personally scour the internet lol

I doubt Sakurai cared all that much about Banjo. Banjo probably got in more based on fan demand over Sakurai bias.

Furthermore, each character has some sort of corporate synergy aspect associated with them. There's clearly more at play here than passion and bias, and to believe otherwise is to completely ignore a significant aspect of DLC speculation.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Y’know, while Minecraft used to be indie, I always found it weird and a bit annoying how some people would say Shantae or whoever had competition with Steve (as in another indie character “stealing” their slot) and how he gets put on the same level as actual indies. You can say Minecraft represents indie success (since it really does), but still, and they ain’t gonna choose a character based on that. They’re still video games; it’s possible we get one and only one indie character, but it’s not because they represent indies as a whole and they could add more than one in the same game or more in the future.

 

[Door Key Pig]

This is the same community that supports:

• Isaac: from the long dead and oft forgotten Golden Sun series, which hasn't seen a new release in almost a decade
• Geno: a secondary protagonist from a game that released over 20 years ago and that didn't see a release in Europe until 10 years ago
• Mach Rider: an obscure NES character whose game released over 30 years ago and who hasn't seen a notable appearance since

While Touhou can definitely be seen as niche, it is far from the most niche series brought up in speculation.

But those are either actually highly demanded for Smash or not a third party.

Nintendo is not calling the shots entirely, even Sakurai further explained that Nintendo actually presented him with a list of possible characters, then Sakurai himself decides which of those are "workable" (which speaking as a creative person, often this means "I find this interesting enough to work on/be inspired by").

I am also tempted to push conspiracy level thinking here in saying that Sakurai may have claimed Nintendo had more impact than they actually did, just so he could shift the blame if people accused him of playing towards his own biases. He could say, "It's Nintendo's fault I got my dream characters, and you didn't get yours, stop heckling me." (Obviously this is a stretch lol, but I think it'd be a smart move on his part)

Just to restate, I think the only common thread between the DLC so far is that they are all Sakurai dream characters. Sure, each one could benefit Nintendo in some abstract way, but each one present an entirely different benefit to the company with no commonality between them. Thus, speculating according to what might benefit Nintendo is fruitless conversation since literally any character could benefit the company in some way.

Thus I think the only reasonable throughline is the idea that each character was inspiring enough to Sakurai to keep him working on them.

Also, to address the idea that my framework is built just to push certain characters: NONSENSE SIR.

I don't care for Geno personally, and I'd rather not have him in the game. But, I think he's possible within the framework

I also don't care for Minecraft, and I actively don't want Steve in the game. But I think he's likely

Resident Evil and Dark Souls are two of my favorite game series. I think the framework does help them.

My most wanted characters are Zelda characters. I don't think any of them are getting in.

I pose my framework not to support my own biases, but rather to guide speculation in a way that I think is most productive.

Also, I want people to start posting Sakurai quotes of him praising games, so I can get a sense of what's likely without having to personally scour the internet lol

Please give me one source where Sakurai mentioned this "list of Nintendo's" everyone mentions. Is it actually something not exclusively coming from inference? And beyond Sakurai mentioning Banjo and legal reasons during Melee, did he say much else about them prior to their Ultimate inclusion? Though if Sakurai's bias was affecting the Fighter's Pass characters, it's possible #5 is Nintendo owned and just put after the bigger third party picks in terms of ordered hype, as that came before this "I'ma continue on this record with Smash right here" stuff.

Also, is some of the first party doubt that valid when they didn't scrap the "base game appropriate" surprise character of this game and instead made it a free w/ purchase for a limited time/later purchasable thing? And Banjo still is a practically dormant franchise in terms of new games for like a decade now, and was kinda notably neglected by the owners themselves up until now? Sure he was fan demanded, but does this otherwise more generally niche to the great public franchise get a pass JUST because it's not Nintendo-owned?

Minecraft Steve is fine as long as Microsoft is willing to double dip since they co-own the game with Mojang. Characters like Reimu and Hollow Knight probably don't have a chance as a fighter in DLC. People seem to forget that making characters, stages and music arrangements costs money to make for everyone involved, Nintendo, Sakurai and the company they want a character from so you can imagine that it'd be quite an investment to hire people to code in moves, design the characters and stage, make new music arrangements, music licensing, etc. which is why I don't think any Indie character will become a fighter for DLC.

Maybe Steve IS the best we could get for "indies" on that level...

 

[SpectreJordan]

Minecraft Steve is fine as long as Microsoft is willing to double dip since they co-own the game with Mojang. Characters like Reimu and Hollow Knight probably don't have a chance as a fighter in DLC. People seem to forget that making characters, stages and music arrangements costs money to make for everyone involved, Nintendo, Sakurai and the company they want a character from so you can imagine that it'd be quite an investment to hire people to code in moves, design the characters and stage, make new music arrangements, music licensing, etc. which is why I don't think any Indie character will become a fighter for DLC.

Microsoft doesn’t co-own Minecraft, they straight up own it. They own Mojang the studio just like they do Rare. They’ve just let Mojang run things largely as usual instead of heavily tying them into the Xbox brand.

I just beat Shantae: Half-Genie Hero & I’m still confused as to why she’s so heavily requested in the Smash community.

It was a fun little game, but nothing special; I’d give it like a 7/10. & it didn’t convince me that she’s as important as the likes of Frisk, Quote, Cuphead, Shovel Knight or Minecraft Steve (former Indie, but Minecraft was a massive game even before MS).

The only thing it convinced me of was her moveset potential. & that I should play the other games if they’re ever on Xbox GamePass (how I played this game) or if they’re on sale.

I liked the game, just don’t get what the big deal is especially when it comes to an indie rep.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think he was one of many LPers who fell victim to commenters DEMANDING he play it a certain way instead of discovering things on his own

To be fair, Undertale is a MUCH better game played some ways than other. And unless you're planning to do multiple playthroughs right from the start, it makes sense that some fans would want you to have the best experience.

Anyway, the Steam Train LP of the game is pure magic.

I just beat Shantae: Half-Genie Hero & I’m still confused as to why she’s so heavily requested in the Smash community.

It was a fun little game, but nothing special; I’d give it like a 7/10. & it didn’t convince me that she’s as important as the likes of Frisk, Quote, Cuphead, Shovel Knight or Minecraft Steve (former Indie, but Minecraft was a massive game even before MS).

Shantae the character is actually better than Shantae the games.

 

[Aetheri]

Microsoft doesn’t co-own Minecraft, they straight up own it. They own Mojang the studio just like they do Rare. They’ve just let Mojang run things largely as usual instead of heavily tying them into the Xbox brand.

I just beat Shantae: Half-Genie Hero & I’m still confused as to why she’s so heavily requested in the Smash community.

It was a fun little game, but nothing special; I’d give it like a 7/10. & it didn’t convince me that she’s as important as the likes of Frisk, Quote, Cuphead, Shovel Knight or Minecraft Steve (former Indie, but Minecraft was a massive game even before MS).

The only thing it convinced me of was her moveset potential. & that I should play the other games if they’re ever on Xbox GamePass (how I played this game) or if they’re on sale.

I liked the game, just don’t get what the big deal is especially when it comes to an indie rep.

HGH is far from the first title in the series. In fact that's one thing Shantae has over most other indies is a history.

 

[Deleted member]

Uh oh, I'm actually not aware of this controversy, what happened?

Here's Markiplier talking about why he stopped his first Undertale LP:

Yeah, he did went back and livestreamed Undertale again after some time and said he really enjoyed it, but a bad experience with a game, whether if it's because of the things in or out of it, is not going to highlight why it was successful.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Microsoft doesn’t co-own Minecraft, they straight up own it. They own Mojang the studio just like they do Rare. They’ve just let Mojang run things largely as usual instead of heavily tying them into the Xbox brand.

I just beat Shantae: Half-Genie Hero & I’m still confused as to why she’s so heavily requested in the Smash community.

It was a fun little game, but nothing special; I’d give it like a 7/10. & it didn’t convince me that she’s as important as the likes of Frisk, Quote, Cuphead, Shovel Knight or Minecraft Steve (former Indie, but Minecraft was a massive game even before MS).

The only thing it convinced me of was her moveset potential. & that I should play the other games if they’re ever on Xbox GamePass (how I played this game) or if they’re on sale.

I liked the game, just don’t get what the big deal is especially when it comes to an indie rep.

Right. That should have been obvious to me. My bad.

As for Shantae, I'm not a fan of the games but you played the weakest game of the bunch. The general consensus is that Shantae and the pirates curse is the best of the series and a lot of the reasons for people wanting her stem from her originating back on the Game Boy Colour in 2002.

 

[Nquoid]

This is the same community that supports:

• Isaac: from the long dead and oft forgotten Golden Sun series, which hasn't seen a new release in almost a decade
• Geno: a secondary protagonist from a game that released over 20 years ago and that didn't see a release in Europe until 10 years ago
• Mach Rider: an obscure NES character whose game released over 30 years ago and who hasn't seen a notable appearance since

While Touhou can definitely be seen as niche, it is far from the most niche series brought up in speculation.

And Touhou is more niche than all of those.

And I don't think I need to explain why the franchise developed by Nintendo featuring Nintendo characters for Nintendo platforms might possibly lend more credence to Nintendo characters. Especially when I'd wager more people have played Super Mario RPG, Mach Rider and Golden Sun than any single Touhou game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And Touhou is more niche than all of those.

I dunno. I see quite a bit more Tohou stuff than Mach Rider and Golden Sun stuff.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Why do people think "indie" characters are competing against each other more than any other character? Why would there be a limit on how many "indie" characters can get in?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Why do people think "indie" characters are competing against each other more than any other character? Why would there be a limit on how many "indie" characters can get in?

I think it's because most people believe we will get one or none at all.

 

[Nquoid]

I dunno. I see quite a bit more Tohou stuff than Mach Rider and Golden Sun stuff.

That's not what niche means though.

denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.

Just because people talk about Touhou a lot doesn't mean it's less niche than games that have sold millions of copies

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Minecraft Steve is fine as long as Microsoft is willing to double dip since they co-own the game with Mojang. Characters like Reimu and Hollow Knight probably don't have a chance as a fighter in DLC. People seem to forget that making characters, stages and music arrangements costs money to make for everyone involved, Nintendo, Sakurai and the company they want a character from so you can imagine that it'd be quite an investment to hire people to code in moves, design the characters and stage, make new music arrangements, music licensing, etc. which is why I don't think any Indie character will become a fighter for DLC.

They don't out source hire from companies to make DLC characters. Literally, all 3rd parties have to do is allow licensing. Nintendo/Sakurai takes care of literally everything else.

 

[osby]

Why do people think "indie" characters are competing against each other more than any other character? Why would there be a limit on how many "indie" characters can get in?

Because Smash fandom is obsessed with "reps" and like to think Sakurai picks characters to fill imaginary quotas.

Yes, I know about Pokemon but let's be honest, most fighter choices don't work like that.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Why do people think "indie" characters are competing against each other more than any other character? Why would there be a limit on how many "indie" characters can get in?

Because just one of them is still unprecedented, plus in terms of properly Western ones we only have Banjo as a properly Western character right now? If there IS some Indie character that gets in, it's fair that it'd kinda have to be a big enough one to do so, to justify such a monumental position in the game.

And Touhou is more niche than all of those.

And I don't think I need to explain why the franchise developed by Nintendo featuring Nintendo characters for Nintendo platforms might possibly lend more credence to Nintendo characters. Especially when I'd wager more people have played Super Mario RPG, Mach Rider and Golden Sun than any single Touhou game.

Do you think there could be examples of games of say, a certain genre, and whether Nintendo would be more likely to take from their own equivalent or a third party's?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

But those are either actually highly demanded for Smash or not a third party.

The argument isn't about demand or first/third party. It's about how "niche" the series is.

Granted, niche is a subjective term, and I feel like it is and has been thrown around rather liberally around these parts.

And Touhou is more niche than all of those.

And I don't think I need to explain why the franchise developed by Nintendo featuring Nintendo characters for Nintendo platforms might possibly lend more credence to Nintendo characters. Especially when I'd wager more people have played Super Mario RPG, Mach Rider and Golden Sun than any single Touhou game.

Is this really the hill you want to die on? Because we're talking about a game series that defined the entire bullet hell genre.

If you've played a bullet hell game, you've played some variation of Touhou.

That's not what niche means though.


Just because people talk about Touhou a lot doesn't mean it's less niche than games that have sold millions of copies

So you're arguing semantics?

Because myself and others here would argue that discussion and overall impact certainly denote whether a series is niche or not.

 

[Dee Dude]

In other news, I’ve finished up my post-Fighter Pass prediction/wish list.

Above: Fighter Pass
Below: More DLC

The characters are essentially a combination of who I want & expect to get in.

If I’m up to the task, I might make a 100 character roster if Sakurai is indeed aiming for that goal.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

They don't out source hire from companies to make DLC characters. Literally, all 3rd parties have to do is allow licensing. Nintendo/Sakurai takes care of literally everything else.

What about the fact that the art designer for Diddy Kong Racing, Paul Cunningham was the one to design Banjo & Kazooie's render in Smash Ultimate?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's not what niche means though.


Just because people talk about Touhou a lot doesn't mean it's less niche than games that have sold millions of copies

Yes but just because a game sold millions of copies doesn't mean it's all that relevant in today's standards, and I'd say Touhou currently has cult status in general while Golden Sun and Mach Rider aren't relevant at all outside of Smash.

EDIT:

What about the fact that the art designer for Diddy Kong Racing, Ben Cunningham was the one to redesign Banjo & Kazooie's design in Smash Ultimate?

It doesn't really look like a redesign though. They just made him look like he did in Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie rather than Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts.

 

[perfectchaos83]

You really don't get much more "lifetime achievement" than Shovel Knight, as it's kind of one of the landmark titles for indie games. Calling it and Undertale novelties is just plain wrong, but hey, you do you.

I call them novelties for a simple reason. They're young and unproven. What's to say that in 10 years Shovel Knight and Undertale disappear? I'm not saying they will, but look at all the 3rd parties in Smash, they've all withstood the test of time with the arguable exception of Bayonetta at the time of her inclusion (Who really, imo, was put in for other reasons). Both of these franchises should mature first before being in Smash and, imo, that's why they aren't. I said it earlier, Sakurai has never been one to pick character because they are popular here and now. He's always been meticulous and multi-faceted in his decisions. I find their inclusions now to be "Maybe one day it will happen, keep it up and it will. But that day is not today".

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

What about the fact that the art designer for Diddy Kong Racing, Paul Cunningham was the one to design Banjo & Kazooie's render in Smash Ultimate?

I assume you mean Paul Cunningham, one of the many MANY artists on Diddy Kong Racing despite the character designs being handled by Steve Mayles. At which point I ask, where is your source for Paul coming back for that? From what I know he wasn't a part of the franchise. Nevertheless, someone being tasked freelance to do concept art is FAR FAR different from hiring another team from another company to help develop a single character in a game they have no experience with or develpment knowledge about.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I assume you mean Paul Cunningham, one of the many MANY artists on Diddy Kong Racing despite the character designs being handled by Steve Mayles. At which point I ask, where is your source for Paul coming back for that? From what I know he wasn't a part of the franchise. Nevertheless, someone being tasked freelance to do concept art is FAR FAR different from hiring another team from another company to help develop a single character in a game they have no experience with or develpment knowledge about.

Here it is: https://www.videogameschronicle.com...ponsible-for-banjo-kazooie-smash-bros-design/

 

[Opossum]

I call them novelties for a simple reason. They're young and unproven. What's to say that in 10 years Shovel Knight and Undertale disappear? I'm not saying they will, but look at all the 3rd parties in Smash, they've all withstood the test of time with the arguable exception of Bayonetta at the time of her inclusion (Who really, imo, was put in for other reasons). Both of these franchises should mature first before being in Smash and, imo, that's why they aren't. I said it earlier, Sakurai has never been one to pick character because they are popular here and now. He's always been meticulous and multi-faceted in his decisions. I find their inclusions now to be "Maybe one day it will happen, keep it up and it will. But that day is not today".

Honestly that just seems like a way to gatekeep post-Wii characters.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

I'm down for PaRappa if Sony is. I was stoked when he was in PSABR.

On the subject of Sega reps, since April, I went from barely knowing what Sakura Wars was to highly anticipating the upcoming soft reboot and hoping Sakura Shinguji got in Smash. The support thread here was hella informative.

The series was super big when it was the 90s

This guy made a whole hour long video about it's influence and its honestly amazing this series saved the Sega Saturn for a bit and was super big in japan for a time

 

[Ornl]

In other news, I’ve finished up my post-Fighter Pass prediction/wish list.

Above: Fighter Pass
Below: More DLC
View attachment 239935

The characters are essentially a combination of who I want & expect to get in.

If I’m up to the task, I might make a 100 character roster if Sakurai is indeed aiming for that goal.

5 series whose first appearance at Nintendo is on GBA ?

 

[osby]

I call them novelties for a simple reason. They're young and unproven. What's to say that in 10 years Shovel Knight and Undertale disappear? I'm not saying they will, but look at all the 3rd parties in Smash, they've all withstood the test of time with the arguable exception of Bayonetta at the time of her inclusion (Who really, imo, was put in for other reasons). Both of these franchises should mature first before being in Smash and, imo, that's why they aren't. I said it earlier, Sakurai has never been one to pick character because they are popular here and now. He's always been meticulous and multi-faceted in his decisions. I find their inclusions now to be "Maybe one day it will happen, keep it up and it will. But that day is not today".

I'm playing Ultimate at the present. Unless you're putting yours into a time capsule, I don't see a point in rejecting characters because of a flimsy "but what if they are not popular 10 years later?".

 

[Loungemen]

I really like Sora, and I really like KH, but I want Disney to stay far away from Smash.

Also if we're discussing female reps we're sleeping on a character here

Spoiler

 

[Roberk]

I call them novelties for a simple reason. They're young and unproven. What's to say that in 10 years Shovel Knight and Undertale disappear? I'm not saying they will, but look at all the 3rd parties in Smash, they've all withstood the test of time with the arguable exception of Bayonetta at the time of her inclusion (Who really, imo, was put in for other reasons). Both of these franchises should mature first before being in Smash and, imo, that's why they aren't. I said it earlier, Sakurai has never been one to pick character because they are popular here and now. He's always been meticulous and multi-faceted in his decisions. I find their inclusions now to be "Maybe one day it will happen, keep it up and it will. But that day is not today".

What if those "characters that withstood the test of time" eventually stop withstanding the test of time? Popularity and relevance are fickle things, only an upper echelon of characters like Mario, Pikachu, Link, etc. can be truly iconic and etched into our generation's hearts. Almost all characters included at this point have varying degrees of popularity throughout the years, just because a character can stop being popular doesn't mean they will and even then it shouldn't stop their inclusion.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Honestly that just seems like a way to gatekeep post-Wii characters.

Call it whatever you want, but I do think series longevity matters on some level for 3rd parties.

I'm playing Ultimate at the present. Unless you're putting yours into a time capsule, I don't see a point in rejecting characters because of a flimsy "but what if they are not popular 10 years later?".

At the end of the day, Smash Bros is a kind of Time Capsule.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What if those "characters that withstood the test of time" eventually stop withstanding the test of time?

If you put them in Smash, they never will.

Getting into Smash makes you immortal.

 

[Wigglerman]

I don't know how much more 'speculation' I can handle. Especially if we're going to get another years worth of content. There's just no real legitimate way to 'speculate'. There's no real pattern. No way to reasonably connect the bread crumbs (Since there really isn't any). Everything boils down to us trying to 'weed out' the least likely candidates but what we consider as unlikely might be high up on Sakurai's (or Nintendo's) list. It's just an enigma.

I'm going to have to bow out of this thread indefinitely. It's become mental gymnastics on why x should be in over y but z would be better than y but has 'less chance' and so on. Just tiring. I'll sit on the edge of my seat and just wait for the announcements and spare mental fatigue XD Been a trip to say the least while I paroosed this thread occasionally Have a good one, folks.

 

[osby]

Call it whatever you want, but I do think series longevity matters on some level for 3rd parties.

Agreed, and I'd love that to change. I know Sakurai is an old-school gamer at heart, but there are plenty of good franchises that started after 90s.

At the end of the day, Smash Bros is a kind of Time Capsule.

One that's already full of dead characters, mind you:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm playing Ultimate at the present. Unless you're putting yours into a time capsule, I don't see a point in rejecting characters because of a flimsy "but what if they are not popular 10 years later?".

I think it's because Smash characters tend to not be dropped in consecutive games, but I think we all know that isn't sustainable.