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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Scoliosis Jones

Kept you waiting, huh?
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I find it somewhat strange that we are still having discussions about spirit promotions.

In the first Fighter's Pass, the idea that we may not get spirit upgrades made a lot more sense. Not only was there a reasonable degree of precedent behind it, but (more importantly) there was some logic behind this theory. Both the spirit list and the first Fighter's Pass were decided during the base game's development, so Sakurai had the time to ensure there would be no overlap between the base game spirits and any DLC characters or spirits.

As of the second Fighter's Pass, however, that explanation really doesn't hold water anymore. Assuming that the second Fighter's Pass was decided about half a year after the base game in June 2019, as Banjo's negotiations began in June 2018, then Sakurai couldn't have ensured there would be no overlap between the base spirit list and any characters/spirits in the second Fighter's Pass unless he deliberately went out of his way to not include reject any base game spirit from the second Fighter's Pass for one reason or another...

...which he clearly isn't holding himself to, as is evident by Min Min. If the idea of spirit upgrades really bothered Sakurai so much as to outweigh the benefits of adding an ARMS fighter and, later, Min Min, then we simply wouldn't have seen this happen. And this is the key to the entire debate, in my opinion. No one is really discussing spirit promotions for the sake of spirit promotions, but instead in the context of a handful of candidates who have a lot of things going for them but are spirits, such as Geno, Rayman, or Bandana Waddle Dee. By addressing that, no, spirits really don't seem to have any substantial impact on a character's outcome, the dynamics around these characters change. That's not to say any spirit promotion is inevitable or doesn't have factors that may make them less likely, but it no longer makes sense to fixate on that element of a character's inclusion. It's like saying "I wouldn't say Dante is likely because Capcom already has a playable character on the roster", it's a critique that no longer makes sense given what we've seen.

If I can be honest, and I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but it really feels like any attempts to keep the spirit debate alive are mostly done by people who are engaging in wishful thinking, where the absence of spirit promotions would either eliminate competition that is facing the characters they personally want or would shape the roster into their idea of what Smash Bros DLC "should" be.
I mostly agree here. That said, the argument isn’t to say, “N-no, I couldn’t possibly be wrong! P-please!” It’s more directing to, “What circumstances led to that specific character, and could those circumstances happen again? Or are they only specific to that character?”

That, I think, is the better argument, and that’s been my point since we got Min Min. I’ve honestly wavered on promotions for awhile. At first I was, “a .png file won’t stop them” then I flipped to “doubtful” and now I’m back to, “yeah it doesn’t matter”. This was around launch, to post-pass 1, to now, mind you.

But the question itself comes down to, will an “upgrade” happen again? The spirit itself has no bearing, but was Min Min a special case and will remain the only upgrade?

To add onto that, I think another question as a part of this conversation is: was the fact that ARMS had plenty of space to expand presence in the game a reason for inclusion? If so, who else could this apply to?

Beyond that I agree. Saying a character can’t happen because they’re a spirit doesn’t work.
 
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MooMew64

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I thonk anyone expecting a 2nd character to be shown tomorrow is tricking themselves
Agreed. In this new era of no more General Directs, Nintendo's been extremely clear when a new fighter is going to drop.

IMHO, the healthy expectation for tomorrow is Sephiroth explanation, his pack's content, launch date, and Mii Costumes. There's really no reason ATM to consider us getting any more other than wishful thinking.
 

chocolatejr9

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We're probably going to be wrong by using past precedent, but if we don't we're gonna see unironic Fighter's Passes with Morshu, Cirno, and Big the Cat, and that's even further off the mark. And honestly, who cares; If we knew the answers, we wouldn't be speculating in the first place. I like pinging ideas off each other and learning about new series. Plus, if we don't know who's coming next, the shock factor's just gonna be even bigger.
Hey, Big the Cat would be awesome and you know it!
 

Sc_Ev0lution

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I mostly agree here. That said, the argument isn’t to say, “N-no, I couldn’t possibly be wrong! P-please!” It’s more directing to, “What circumstances led to that specific character, and could those circumstances happen again? Or are they only specific to that character?”

That, I think, is the better argument, and that’s been my point since we got Min Min. I’ve honestly wavered on promotions for awhile. At first I was, “a .png file won’t stop them” then I flipped to “doubtful” and now I’m back to, “yeah it doesn’t matter”. This was around launch, to post-pass 1, to now, mind you.

But the question itself comes down to, will an “upgrade” happen again? The spirit itself has no bearing, but was Min Min a special case and will remain the only upgrade?

To add onto that, I think another question as a part of this conversation is: was the fact that ARMS had plenty of space to expand presence in the game a reason for inclusion? If so, who else could this apply to?

Beyond that I agree. Saying a character can’t happen because they’re a spirit doesn’t work.
I'd amend that slightly to base game spirits. Put as best I can manage, the more recently a spirit is added to the game, the less likely that character is to appear as a fighter. That's also before taking into account that specific character's merits and circumstances, of course.
 

SKX31

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So we got a skipped Event? Interesting.

If Cuphead is any indication, I think it's for a costume/Spirit that isn't in the game at this time and will be shown in Sephiroth's presentation. If it's Square, my bets would be on Chrono Trigger. If it's an indie, Necrodancer or Hollow Knight. If it's neither... I don't know.
I can already tell that if it is Hollow Knight with Sealed Vessel...

... People are not going to shut up about a certain leak for months. :4dedede:

Agreed. In this new era of no more General Directs, Nintendo's been extremely clear when a new fighter is going to drop.

IMHO, the healthy expectation for tomorrow is Sephiroth explanation, his pack's content, launch date, and Mii Costumes. There's really no reason ATM to consider us getting any more other than wishful thinking.
Considering the Japanese livestream outright said there'd be no additional character reveal:


Yeah. That said, have NoA / NoE (or any other Nintendo sections) said the same thing? If not, then there's evidently some disconnect between NoJ and the other Nintendo departments.
 
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CapitaineCrash

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I find it somewhat strange that we are still having discussions about spirit promotions.

In the first Fighter's Pass, the idea that we may not get spirit upgrades made a lot more sense. Not only was there a reasonable degree of precedent behind it, but (more importantly) there was some logic behind this theory. Both the spirit list and the first Fighter's Pass were decided during the base game's development, so Sakurai had the time to ensure there would be no overlap between the base game spirits and any DLC characters or spirits.

As of the second Fighter's Pass, however, that explanation really doesn't hold water anymore. Assuming that the second Fighter's Pass was decided about half a year after the base game in June 2019, as Banjo's negotiations began in June 2018, then Sakurai couldn't have ensured there would be no overlap between the base spirit list and any characters/spirits in the second Fighter's Pass unless he deliberately went out of his way to not include reject any base game spirit from the second Fighter's Pass for one reason or another...

...which he clearly isn't holding himself to, as is evident by Min Min. If the idea of spirit upgrades really bothered Sakurai so much as to outweigh the benefits of adding an ARMS fighter and, later, Min Min, then we simply wouldn't have seen this happen. And this is the key to the entire debate, in my opinion. No one is really discussing spirit promotions for the sake of spirit promotions, but instead in the context of a handful of candidates who have a lot of things going for them but are spirits, such as Geno, Rayman, or Bandana Waddle Dee. By addressing that, no, spirits really don't seem to have any substantial impact on a character's outcome, the dynamics around these characters change. That's not to say any spirit promotion is inevitable or doesn't have factors that may make them less likely, but it no longer makes sense to fixate on that element of a character's inclusion. It's like saying "I wouldn't say Dante is likely because Capcom already has a playable character on the roster", it's a critique that no longer makes sense given what we've seen.

If I can be honest, and I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but it really feels like any attempts to keep the spirit debate alive are mostly done by people who are engaging in wishful thinking, where the absence of spirit promotions would either eliminate competition that is facing the characters they personally want or would shape the roster into their idea of what Smash Bros DLC "should" be.
Personally, it's not that spirits can't happen, it's just that Arms was planned for the base game and was also a request for the director so it make sense to put Min min playable. I think Geno had his chance but Sephiroth really hurt him imo. I guess we'll see tomorrow if he have a mii or not, but I'm starting to doubt that he will happen. This isn't because of his spirits status, I just doubt we'll have that juch Square character. You could argue that I'm just "making rules" or stuff, but with so many little spot left, I think Nintendo will try to put more different developpers in the same pass.

About Rayman, well first he was never popualr in Japan. And right now his franchise is dormant (and with Michel Ancel leaving the video game industry, I honestly doubt we'll see Rayman back soon). I just don't see why they would go with him now when nothing really change for his situation between now and 2016/2017 (when base game roster was chosen). Also I think that the Rabbids mii costume hurts him even more.

I will agree with bandana dee tho. I don't think he's a front runner, but seeing Sephiroth make me think that side character have more chance than what I think for dlc. Kirby also have pretty much yearly release, and I have the feeling that in 2021 we will se a mainline Kirby. But my point is that just becasue one spirit happen don,t mean that every spirit can. You said in your post "candidates who have a lot of things going for them but are spirits, such as Geno, Rayman, or Bandana Waddle Dee", but really Rayman doesn't have a lot going for him. It's just the reality, not just because he's a spirit.
 

3BitSaurus

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I can already tell that if it is Hollow Knight with Sealed Vessel...

... People are not going to shut up about a certain leak for months. :4dedede:
Honestly? Even if it ends up being fake, I'd love to see that.

Brings something new to the equation and it happens to relate to my wants, so I'm not complaining ~ :roll:
 
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MooMew64

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Yeah. That said, have NoA / NoE (or any other Nintendo sections) said the same thing? If not, then there's evidently some disconnect between NoJ and the other Nintendo departments.
NoE and NoA haven't said anything, but I imagine it's either due to miscommunication or more than likely just the social media managers of those branches not seeing the need to clarify, like you said.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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NoE and NoA haven't said anything, but I imagine it's either due to miscommunication or more than likely just the social media managers of those branches not seeing the need to clarify, like you said.
Honestly it's ****ing pathetic that it needs to be clarified every time if you ask me. I don't see what's so hard to understand about "We're showcasing Character X in a presentation all about them and the content they bring" only talking about Character X
I can already tell that if it is Hollow Knight with Sealed Vessel...

... People are not going to shut up about a certain leak for months. :4dedede:
Wait am I out of the loop? What leak?
 

Þe 1 → Way

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We skipped a spirit event?
Thats for Sephiroth or the mii costume.
Still holding out hope for Hollow Knight representation, even if its just a mii. I may not have been able to beat Hollow Knight, but I still respect and love the hell out of it.
 

Scoliosis Jones

Kept you waiting, huh?
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To be fair, I think saying Sephiroth helps Bandanna Dee...well, look. It’s not that I think it’s incorrect, it’s just things it’s hard to really determine that.

I believe it’s known that I don’t care much for BWD as a Smash pick (that doesn’t mean he’s objectively a bad pick, just not my cup of tea!), so if you think it’s just me being biased then that’s fine, but comparing him as a side character to...Sephiroth?

Sephiroth is waaaaaaay more than just a side character. He’s among the most iconic characters in the industry, especially so with villains.

We don’t need 1:1 comparisons for everything, don’t get me wrong. On the basis of “not the protagonist” then yeah that could work. But I always come back to, if the reasoning for Sephiroth getting into Smash are reasons that wouldn’t apply to BWD, in what way does Sephiroth truly help him? It’s the same thing with Eggman, in my humble opinion.

I’m just not sure that comparing supporting character/sometimes playable Bandanna Dee to Sephiroth really works, is what I mean. Thoughts?
 

Aerospherology

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We skipped a spirit event?
Thats for Sephiroth or the mii costume.
Still holding out hope for Hollow Knight representation, even if its just a mii. I may not have been able to beat Hollow Knight, but I still respect and love the hell out of it.
The event would be for a costume, since the spirits are included in Challenger Pack 8.
 
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cothero

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What do you guys think about this "40 names list"? It just came to my knowledge now, watching the last Papa Geno's video: https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/#
I've been very skeptical with leaks since the Grinch Leak, but to have Sephiroth and Terry in a leak that was posted back in May 2019... Hmmm...
Also, the only fighter we got so far who's not mentioned in the list in Min Min. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt, but i found it interesting to share with you all anyways.
Oh, and sorry if this leak was discussed already.
 

Cutie Gwen

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What do you guys think about this "40 names list"? It just came to my knowledge now, watching the last Papa Geno's video: https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/#
I've been very skeptical with leaks since the Grinch Leak, but to have Sephiroth and Terry in a leak that was posted back in May 2019... Hmmm...
Also, the only fighter we got so far who's not mentioned in the list in Min Min. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt, but i found it interesting to share with you all anyways.
Oh, and sorry if this leak was discussed already.
Yeah this was discussed well over a year ago lmao. As for the list, if you throw a big enougj net, you're bound to catch something, coincidentally, this list came out after Vergeben's Square Seven list, which included Sephiroth too. There's no possible explanation on why Min Min, or even 'ARMS character' isn't on there at all either.
 

SharkLord

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I can already tell that if it is Hollow Knight with Sealed Vessel...

... People are not going to shut up about a certain leak for months. :4dedede:
That would be interesting to see.

On one hand, rando 4chan LoL leak that got some Spirits and a Mii right.

On the other, rando 5chan Crash-Reimos leak that got Sephiroth right.

Only one can be right and both are probably wrong anyways

And lord forbid us getting a 5chan leak character for CP9 after getting the Knight with Sealed Vessel in Sephiroth's pack. That's gonna be a warzone.
 
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chocolatejr9

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What do you guys think about this "40 names list"? It just came to my knowledge now, watching the last Papa Geno's video: https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/#
I've been very skeptical with leaks since the Grinch Leak, but to have Sephiroth and Terry in a leak that was posted back in May 2019... Hmmm...
Also, the only fighter we got so far who's not mentioned in the list in Min Min. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt, but i found it interesting to share with you all anyways.
Oh, and sorry if this leak was discussed already.
Yeah, we've talked about this before. On the one hand, it COULD be that they got incredibly lucky (they're bound to get at least ONE right from a list of 40 characters). On the other hand, that list has so far only missed one character (Min Min). Personally, I suggest we wait and see on this one.
 

SKX31

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I love how the video thumbnail presents itself.

35 MINUTES OF SEPHIROTH

PLUS

NO NEW FIGHTERS!
HOPE YOU LIKE 35 MINUTES OF OMNIOUS LATIN CHANTING!

Wait am I out of the loop? What leak?
The LoL leak from back in April, who talked about Trials of Mana spirit, LoL games on consoles and that specific Mii costume with Sealed Vessel (and of course, a LoL rep).

4chan leak though, so yeah, be very careful about that. Vergeben said he'd "look into it" but haven't said anything about that since.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
What do you guys think about this "40 names list"? It just came to my knowledge now, watching the last Papa Geno's video: https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/#
I've been very skeptical with leaks since the Grinch Leak, but to have Sephiroth and Terry in a leak that was posted back in May 2019... Hmmm...
Also, the only fighter we got so far who's not mentioned in the list in Min Min. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt, but i found it interesting to share with you all anyways.
Oh, and sorry if this leak was discussed already.
It’s neat but the lack of anything ARMs related means it’s just someone throwing darts and hoping some land due to the sheer quantity.
 

Lyncario

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What do you guys think about this "40 names list"? It just came to my knowledge now, watching the last Papa Geno's video: https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/#
I've been very skeptical with leaks since the Grinch Leak, but to have Sephiroth and Terry in a leak that was posted back in May 2019... Hmmm...
Also, the only fighter we got so far who's not mentioned in the list in Min Min. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt, but i found it interesting to share with you all anyways.
Oh, and sorry if this leak was discussed already.
Looking at it now and conisdering how Sakurai said himself that he himself thinks that there's too many FE characters in Smash, why would he pick Byleth over Rex, or anyone else on this list? This is a big part of it that doesn't make sense to me and makes me think that this is very fake, and that's not talking the lack of Arms rep/Min Min on it.
 
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cothero

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Yeah this was discussed well over a year ago lmao. As for the list, if you throw a big enougj net, you're bound to catch something, coincidentally, this list came out after Vergeben's Square Seven list, which included Sephiroth too. There's no possible explanation on why Min Min, or even 'ARMS character' isn't on there at all either.
Yup, the seven Square characters listed by Vergeben could explain Sephiroth, but as for Terry... It's was a very lucky guess.
 

Momotsuki

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We're probably going to be wrong by using past precedent, but if we don't we're gonna see unironic Fighter's Passes with Morshu, Cirno, and Big the Cat, and that's even further off the mark. And honestly, who cares; If we knew the answers, we wouldn't be speculating in the first place. I like pinging ideas off each other and learning about new series. Plus, if we don't know who's coming next, the shock factor's just gonna be even bigger.
I think it's nice to have a healthy mix of evaluating precedent - being open to the idea it may not hold up - and even still, taking just a couple of shots in the dark. Trying too hard to be right, or just going completely batty with one's predictions, both easy ways to end up way off. There's a happy medium!
 
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MarioRaccoon

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That 4chan 40 name list is curious. For example; it lists Phoenix Wright, Monster Hunter, Arthur and Amaterasu from Capcom but no Dante, and generally, someone that wants to invent a fake leak, probably would include Dante as he is a common wanted/speculated fighter

Maybe this was a initial list they made for FP1, and for FP2 they updated with new names, who knows. There is also the chance that the list is incomplete. Its interesting that in mentions names like Ezio that got included as a mii costume. Take of course,with extreme gain of salt.
 
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Momotsuki

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Would anybody like to show me this list of 40? I haven't seen it. Nevermind, I might be an idiot. I found it a few posts back.
Aaaaand nevermind again, I have seen this before and it's a load of rubbish.
 
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D

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Sephiroth's presentation comes in a day, and we're talking about leaks? Leak talk is so boring.
 

XorahnGaia

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That 4chan 40 name list is curious. For example; it lists Phoenix Wright, Monster Hunter, Arthur and Amaterasu from Capcom but no Dante, and generally, someone that wants to invent a fake leak, probably would include Dante as he is a common wanted/speculated fighter

Maybe this was a initial list they made for FP1, and for FP2 they updated with new names, who names. There is also the chance that the list is incomplete. Its interesting that in mentions names like Ezio that got included as a mii costume. Take of course,with extreme gain of salt.
The AssCreed Mii costume wasn't Ezio though, it was Altair.
 
D

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Just having a list of 40 characters isn't enough IMO. assuming you just list some of the most popular requests the odds that you get at least one right is significantly higher than the odds you do not. If we can find proof that this list is even something the boys at Nintendo did(a scan of the original document for example) , then that would be a different story, but for right now I'm not gonna put any creedence into this "leak" for the time being.
 
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Michael the Spikester

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I don't know If anyone else noticed this but with the next wave of amibos coming out on march 26th, you know what else releases on march 26? Monster hunter rise!
I'm taking the crazy prediction we're actually gonna get Palicos coming with the returning Monster Hunter Mii.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Just having a list of 40 characters isn't enough IMO. assuming you just list some of the most popular requests the odds that you get at least one right is significantly higher than the odds you do not. If we can find proof that this list is even something the boys at Nintendo did(a scan of the original document for example) , then that would be a different story, but for right now I'm not gonna put any creedence into this "leak" for the time being.
Indeed. Like, I probably would've gotten 2 at most at this point(Banjo & Kazooie and Steve), but we know my track record for guesses is horrid.

A broken clock is right twice a day, after all.
 

TheTuninator

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What do you guys think about this "40 names list"? It just came to my knowledge now, watching the last Papa Geno's video: https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/464169792/#
I've been very skeptical with leaks since the Grinch Leak, but to have Sephiroth and Terry in a leak that was posted back in May 2019... Hmmm...
Also, the only fighter we got so far who's not mentioned in the list in Min Min. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt, but i found it interesting to share with you all anyways.
Oh, and sorry if this leak was discussed already.
The least obvious inclusion we've gotten so far (Min-Min when everyone expected Spring Man or Ribbon Girl for ARMS) not being in any given leak is more than enough to torpedo it. Doubly so given that if you pick 40 names and still miss somebody you really have zero credibility.
 
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