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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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MarioRaccoon

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Like if Ultimate had a normal Newcomer roster count (in Base Roster), would Rhythm heaven character actually have made it in?
If Ultimate would had a larger newcomer roster, like 5 or 6 more characters I think we would have got Elma, Chorus Kids, Isaac, Geno, Dixie Kong and Shadow (as en echo) That would give a total of 11 newcomers + 6 echos = 17 fighters, same number as Smash 4.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I just thought of a reason I'm surprised nobody else seeme to have thought of as to why basing a rhythm moveset to the ingame songs instead of the specific attacks having timing. What about gamers who are hard of hearing or outright deaf? They'd literally be unable to play the character so on top of being a development nightmare, they'd be the biggest accessability issue in the game
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I just thought of a reason I'm surprised nobody else seeme to have thought of as to why basing a rhythm moveset to the ingame songs instead of the specific attacks having timing. What about gamers who are hard of hearing or outright deaf? They'd literally be unable to play the character so on top of being a development nightmare, they'd be the biggest accessability issue in the game
I brought it up once. Even if you could get it functioning in the context of Super Smash Bros. anyone who couldn't hear the game for whatever reason wouldn't be able to play the character, and that's a big no no.

EDIT: Even barring that, how are you supposed to keep a tempo when your match sounds like this?

Speaking of accessibility issues, Inkling color blind mode when? I'm not personally color blind, but it's an issue I'd like to see resolved nonetheless.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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Honestly, I think if Sakurai were to do a Rythmn Heaven character, I think he'd just stick to what he was likely going to do for Smash for Wii U/3DS if he had more time or the 3DS had more processing power and add the Chorus Kids.

Honestly, I'm kinda cheesed we didn't get those little guys. They're cute as HFIL.
I always forget, but were the Chorus Kids actually confirmed to be the ones that were gonna get in?

All I know is Gematsu was outdated information and that a Rhythm Heaven newcomer was probably going to be added, but ultimately got scrapped.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I always forget, but were the Chorus Kids actually confirmed to be the ones that were gonna get in?

All I know is Gematsu was outdated information and that a Rhythm Heaven newcomer was probably going to be added, but ultimately got scrapped.
While Gematsu ended up outdated, it had 'Pokemon from X and Y' instead of calling Greninja, meaning Sakurai had at least decided on who to include going off of how the Rhythm Heaven character was a specific character
 

Spongeboob

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Who are characters that you guys want to see in Smash but are rather unpopular in the roster support community? I don't mean "less popular" (such as Arvis or Intelleon) or someone who also has/would bring a lot of hate (Euden or Geno); rather I mean someone who is rarely seen, if at all (even jokingly). (Not that I want these characters, but I think a few examples are Hyde Kido from Under Night In-Birth, Crypto 137/138 from Destroy All Humans!, and Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse. (....or at least I don't see characters like these that often.))

Just Raz (Psychonauts) and Crow (Persona 5). Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.
Gooigi seems to be the meme pick at the moment actually. I think he dethroned Baboom after we stopped talking about Pokémon.

EDIT: As for me, I don't really have any intense wants, but I would be very pleasantly surprised to see Amy (Zanzarah: The Hidden Portal) or Tak (Tak).
 
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GoodGrief741

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I just thought of a reason I'm surprised nobody else seeme to have thought of as to why basing a rhythm moveset to the ingame songs instead of the specific attacks having timing. What about gamers who are hard of hearing or outright deaf? They'd literally be unable to play the character so on top of being a development nightmare, they'd be the biggest accessability issue in the game
I really don't think Smash is made with accessibility in mind tbh, but if they did, they could just have a visual indicator of the BGM's beat. That would help not only the hearing impaired, but also people with poor sense of rhythm and not make the character unplayable in a chaotic and loud multiplayer match.
 

cashregister9

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Who are characters that you guys want to see in Smash but are rather unpopular in the roster support community? I don't mean "less popular" (such as Arvis or Intelleon) or someone who also has/would bring a lot of hate (Euden or Geno); rather I mean someone who is rarely seen, if at all (even jokingly). (Not that I want these characters, but I think a few examples are Hyde Kido from Under Night In-Birth, Crypto 137/138 from Destroy All Humans!, and Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse. (....or at least I don't see characters like these that often.))

Just Raz (Psychonauts) and Crow (Persona 5). Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.
Bangs Table HARUKA AMAMI



The IDOLM@STER Started as a Video game in Japanese arcades in 2005 and it is developed by Bandai Namco, so it already has connections to Smash, IDOLM@STER has exploded into this massive multimedia franchise that has become Iconic in it's own right with several games on Mobile devices and the Xbox 360. It has even crossed over with Tales Of and Granblue. Does she actually have a chance, A small one but the thing that really kills Haruka Amami's chances are the fact that none of the games have released outside of Asia, That probably kills her chances but it's fun to dream.
 
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SharkLord

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View attachment 291762Who are characters that you guys want to see in Smash but are rather unpopular in the roster support community? I don't mean "less popular" (such as Arvis or Intelleon) or someone who also has/would bring a lot of hate (Euden or Geno); rather I mean someone who is rarely seen, if at all (even jokingly). (Not that I want these characters, but I think a few examples are Hyde Kido from Under Night In-Birth, Crypto 137/138 from Destroy All Humans!, and Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse. (....or at least I don't see characters like these that often.))

Just Raz (Psychonauts) and Crow (Persona 5). Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.
The Beheaded from Dead Cells, for one. I made a support thread for him and that got almost no traction at all.

Stinks

Beyond that, there's Miriam from Bloodstained, though she does seem to have a small but steady following here. Also Sakuna from Sakuna: Of Rice and Ruin, but that's understandable because the game literally just released. As in, less than a week ago just released. Should probably get around to making her support thread soon.

I'm probably going to get crucified for this but I think I could add Amiya to the list since I'm slowly getting into Arknights
 

Cutie Gwen

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I really don't think Smash is made with accessibility in mind tbh, but if they did, they could just have a visual indicator of the BGM's beat. That would help not only the hearing impaired, but also people with poor sense of rhythm and not make the character unplayable in a chaotic and loud multiplayer match.
Again, I feel the solution is having the attacks be set and that it'd have both audio and visual cues to indicate when to do the next attack, Chorus Kids especially make it easier to work with as you have 1 kid and during a specific part of the animation, on hit or not, the next kid attacks and during that kid's part of the animation, you have the final one. One issue I see here is hitlag but they've programmed specific moves to do little to no hitlag and even patched them so it'd be much more feasible. The other issue is of course, online play being completely unviable for the character which is why I don't think a rhythm or timing based character could ever work
 

Iko MattOrr

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I just thought of a reason I'm surprised nobody else seeme to have thought of as to why basing a rhythm moveset to the ingame songs instead of the specific attacks having timing. What about gamers who are hard of hearing or outright deaf? They'd literally be unable to play the character so on top of being a development nightmare, they'd be the biggest accessability issue in the game
If one person can't hear then they probably are also unable to play any original Rhythm Heaven game, not just the fighter... so what's the point...
RH is a rhythm game where you have to play with the music, a RH rep should include this in the moveset else it would not be a RH rep, at least IMO.
Donkey Kong's final smash in Brawl was already a rhythm game btw.
 

Spongeboob

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Pft. Just have online that doesn't suck. It'll be better for everyone.
The worst part is: they were so close...
“There are also requests for a rollback method, and we did inspect it during development, but we passed up on it. The side effects were too big.”
1600352267953.jpg
I get that it's best to used a wired connection, but come on.
If one person can't hear then they probably are also unable to play any original Rhythm Heaven game, not just the fighter... so what's the point...
RH is a rhythm game where you have to play with the music, a RH rep should include this in the moveset else it would not be a RH rep, at least IMO.
Donkey Kong's final smash in Brawl was already a rhythm game btw.
While I'd say it's not impossible to play a rhythm game if you're deaf (They're not handicapped; they're handi-capable!), I'd agree that, to some extent, defeats the purpose for a deaf person to play a rhythm game because they're not able to hear the music. It's like describing the color blue to a blind person.
 

Iko MattOrr

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While I'd say it's not impossible to play a rhythm game if you're deaf (They're not handicapped; they're handi-capable!), I'd agree that, to some extent, defeats the purpose for a deaf person to play a rhythm game because they're not able to hear the music. It's like describing the color blue to a blind person.
It's not even just that, it's that in the RH series there are minigames that are completely impossible to be played without hearing. Some hints are only audio, some minigames have parts when the screen is covered and you have to just listen (like the cloud part of Air Rally).

Deaf people can still feel the rhythm in other ways though, so if accessibility is an issue, you can, for example, make them "sense" the rhythm by activating the rumble a bit at each beat (aside of visual hints, that can also be directly on the character and not just on the gui). Switch Lite and some controllers have no rumble, ok, but still better than nothing.
 

Guynamednelson

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While I'd say it's not impossible to play a rhythm game if you're deaf (They're not handicapped; they're handi-capable!), I'd agree that, to some extent, defeats the purpose for a deaf person to play a rhythm game because they're not able to hear the music. It's like describing the color blue to a blind person.
It's possible for a blind person to play Rhythm Heaven, because it's all about using sound cues and trying to ignore visual ones. Obviously the same can't be said for deaf people.
 

SnowClaws

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View attachment 291762Who are characters that you guys want to see in Smash but are rather unpopular in the roster support community? I don't mean "less popular" (such as Arvis or Intelleon) or someone who also has/would bring a lot of hate (Euden or Geno); rather I mean someone who is rarely seen, if at all (even jokingly). (Not that I want these characters, but I think a few examples are Hyde Kido from Under Night In-Birth, Crypto 137/138 from Destroy All Humans!, and Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse. (....or at least I don't see characters like these that often.))

Just Raz (Psychonauts) and Crow (Persona 5). Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.



Too many characters to listed, but here some are that I wanted to see in Smash rather they are fighter, spirit or mii costume:
Skullomania, Talis (Metal Max Xeno), Reiji Arisu & Xiaomu, Etrian Odyssey, The Medic (The Stretchers), Umihara Kawase, Patty Pepper, Power Pro, Shiori Fujisaki, Won Pairon, Raymond Bryce, Sam Fisher, Gunvolt, Bullet Kin, Lilac, Yooka-laylee, Diogenes, etc.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Pft. Just have online that doesn't suck. It'll be better for everyone.
Sadly I don't trust Nintendo, the company who says "For good online, buy an accessory because we didn't put a LAN cable port in the console itself lmao", to do that as much as it's needed
If one person can't hear then they probably are also unable to play any original Rhythm Heaven game, not just the fighter... so what's the point...
RH is a rhythm game where you have to play with the music, a RH rep should include this in the moveset else it would not be a RH rep, at least IMO.
Donkey Kong's final smash in Brawl was already a rhythm game btw.
I have loved ones who are hard of hearing so I see them and others with hearing issues as people who have the right to play video games too and not deserving of being left out because of devs deliberately choosing to make **** too complicated instead of having a much more reasonable timing requirement from the moves

Yeah and damn near everyone hated that Final Smash and it got visual cues in Smash 4 to make it usable without the audio cues
 

Spongeboob

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It's possible for a blind person to play Rhythm Heaven, because it's all about using sound cues and trying to ignore visual ones. Obviously the same can't be said for deaf people.
Both are screwed. I'd say that a blind person can get by in a minigame such as Ringside or especially Figure Fighter, but a deaf person has a better chance when it comes to minigames such as Night Walk and Karate Man.
 

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Staarih

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With not getting too much into "who can/can't play rhythm games", if a character with some type of rhythm/timed attacks should get in Smash, I'd figure they would have visual cues as well (ala DK's previous Final Smash). And the rhythm-aspect would likely just make the attacks reach their full potential, not completely be relied on the timing (as in, still make damage either way).

A rhythm-based moveset would be kinda new though so I'm all for it. Rhythm Heaven redemption, let's go!
 
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GenoDoge

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View attachment 291762Who are characters that you guys want to see in Smash but are rather unpopular in the roster support community? I don't mean "less popular" (such as Arvis or Intelleon) or someone who also has/would bring a lot of hate (Euden or Geno); rather I mean someone who is rarely seen, if at all (even jokingly). (Not that I want these characters, but I think a few examples are Hyde Kido from Under Night In-Birth, Crypto 137/138 from Destroy All Humans!, and Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse. (....or at least I don't see characters like these that often.))

Just Raz (Psychonauts) and Crow (Persona 5). Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.
A character from Them's Fightin' Herds honestly, my pick would be Arizona or Oleander. It's a decently popular indie fighting game, but rarely talked about in Smash speculation.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Btw I should have said this earlier but every rhythm game I've seen uses visual cues. Guitar Hero, Just Dance, We Sing, DDR, Yakuza, Kingdom Hearts, Necrodancer, Rhythm Heaven, Taiko no Tatsujin, Osu, Tadpole Treble, Harmoknight, etc. Anyone saying visual cues would ruin the mechanic or be inaccurate either never noticed these somehow or never even as much as looked at the genre
 

Curious Villager

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I think a visual cue is probably the best option for the character, like DK's previous Final Smash, either placed by the character's fighter portrait like all the other characters with meter gimmicks and whatnot, or probably a single larger one at the top or bottom of the screen since all players who use the Rhythm character in the same match would pretty much use the same one anyway and have clearer and quicker access to it too over a tiny one in a corner by the characters fighter portrait I think. Unless their stage has some kind of gimmick where every character can make use of their rhythm gimmick there...

Rumble cues would probably help too.
 
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osby

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I think a visual cue is probably the best option for the character, like DK's previous Final Smash, either placed by the character's fighter portrait like all the other characters with meter gimmicks and whatnot, or probably a single larger one at the top or bottom of the screen since all players who use the Rhythm character in the same match would pretty much use the same one anyway and have clearer and quicker access to it too over a tiny one in a corner by the characters fighter portrait I think. Unless their stage has some kind of gimmick where every character can make use of their rhythm gimmick there...

Rumble cues would probably help too.
It depends on the direction they take with the moveset, but why not place the visual cues on the fighter's own animations?

Timing-dependant moves like Deep Breathing already make use of it and I personally didn't experience any problems with it.
 

Curious Villager

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It depends on the direction they take with the moveset, but why not place the visual cues on the fighter's own animations?

Timing-dependant moves like Deep Breathing already make use of it and I personally didn't experience any problems with it.
I suppose that works too.

Just thinking where best to place them during the heat of battle and the player can have a quick and easy glance at them without having to quickly look at the other side of the screen or something...
Especially if they aren't rhythm savvy or have hearing problems but can take visual cues and all.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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I suppose that works too.

Just thinking where best to place them during the heat of battle and the player can have a quick and easy glance at them without having to quickly look at the other side of the screen or something...
Especially if they aren't rhythm savvy but can take visual cues and all.
I think that'd depend on the attack used, if using say, a jab, have the first hit be a karate chop and part of the animation will have the hand clench into a fist with a quick flash of sparkles or something, if you hit the A button again during that sparkle it becomes a punch, the next cue should be on the other hand and has a similar cue to connect to the third hit, another punch.
 

ShrimpScampi

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Btw I should have said this earlier but every rhythm game I've seen uses visual cues. Guitar Hero, Just Dance, We Sing, DDR, Yakuza, Kingdom Hearts, Necrodancer, Rhythm Heaven, Taiko no Tatsujin, Osu, Tadpole Treble, Harmoknight, etc. Anyone saying visual cues would ruin the mechanic or be inaccurate either never noticed these somehow or never even as much as looked at the genre
The only rhythm game (or rhythm minigame I guess) I know of that doesn't have consistent visual cues is the Drakengard 3 route D final boss. I say "consistent" because it starts out with the glowing rings being an okay visual indicator, but then the camera absolutely goes rogue in the later sections. The uncooperative camera, combined with the fact that you can't miss a single ring without restarting the whole challenge, makes this one infamously hard / annoying.
(Also, that ding you hear at 7:07 after it fades to black and the dialogue starts? That's the last note you have to hit. In total darkness.)

But yeah, Yoko Taro and his bonkers final boss design choice aside, I agree that visual cues would be needed if they were to incorporate a rhythm mechanic into Smash.
 

Cutie Gwen

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The only rhythm game (or rhythm minigame I guess) I know of that doesn't have consistent visual cues is the Drakengard 3 route D final boss. I say "consistent" because it starts out with the glowing rings being an okay visual indicator, but then the camera absolutely goes rogue in the later sections. The uncooperative camera, combined with the fact that you can't miss a single ring without restarting the whole challenge, makes this one infamously hard / annoying.
(Also, that ding you hear at 7:07 after it fades to black and the dialogue starts? That's the last note you have to hit. In total darkness.)

But yeah, Yoko Taro and his bonkers final boss design choice aside, I agree that visual cues would be needed if they were to incorporate a rhythm mechanic into Smash.
Ok that's one hell of an example but Yoko Taro's infamous for pulling stupid ass bull****, especially with Drakengard to bully completionists
 

pupNapoleon

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I thought Inklings were DLC in Wii U Versions. Then again, Splatoon came out like a year after Mario Kart 8 right, so I guess they'd be saved for Switch version


In any case, I guess perhaps an Ultimate Deluxe Version would only add few New Characters and modes gong by Precedent, but Dang it it would be the Best way to have 100 Characters or More, though I don't know how much Sakurai cares about breaking that Milestone, but Over 100 Characters could be a Big Selling point...or not
I think it is very possible we could get more than 100 characters if we count echoes. And I think we would get 5-10 more echoes if we were to get a deluxe edition.

However, I'm not sure I think Deluxe would happen. The biggest upsell to get it re-sold to the same crowd (as Mario Kart did). I don't see that happening unless they add in roll back code, and I don't know if that can be implemented to play alongside the current version.
So, I don't think they could call it deluxe. There are just too many variables.

And before someone brings up Min Min.... which I'm surprised the Min Min guy didn't do. Cute pic btw, Ramen.

ARMS is a relatively young IP that isn't quite as figured out as other fighting game IPs that have been around for decades and no, Spring Man's heavy push in the marketing and graphic novel teaser don't count yet because there's no sign of things staying that way as of today.

As a comparison, Morrigan usurped Demitri's role of main protagonist in the Darkstalkers games as he was originally intended as the protagonist before Morrigan just proved to be so popular that things had to be changed.

And almost every character in ARMS has a common theme; extendable arms. So unlike Rhythm Heaven, where all the characters are very disconnected in terms of what they represent since they all use rhythm in a different way, most of ARMS's roster actually represent the game's overall gameplay fairly well on their own.
...since I guess I'm the Min Min guy (for guessing her and defending why that made sense), I'll chime in!
There is definitely a theme to Rhythm Heaven. It's Rhythm. (Why is Min Min even relevant here? Maybe you're the Spring Man guy!?)

I'd imagine that's why the Chorus Kids were the popular idea in leaks- because having a three in one character allows rhythm to be in the character, not in extraneous details of each stage.

Reading a lot of these responses, it's clear to me a musician needs to be involved in creating the character.
 
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Perkilator

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View attachment 291762Who are characters that you guys want to see in Smash but are rather unpopular in the roster support community? I don't mean "less popular" (such as Arvis or Intelleon) or someone who also has/would bring a lot of hate (Euden or Geno); rather I mean someone who is rarely seen, if at all (even jokingly). (Not that I want these characters, but I think a few examples are Hyde Kido from Under Night In-Birth, Crypto 137/138 from Destroy All Humans!, and Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse. (....or at least I don't see characters like these that often.))

Just Raz (Psychonauts) and Crow (Persona 5). Maybe I'll throw Gooigi (Luigi's Mansion 3), as a Luigi clone, in there too. That's all.
First of all, nice choice of picture.

Second, I can think of plenty:
  • Sakura Shinguji
  • Adol Christin
  • Bald Bull
 

pupNapoleon

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At this point I don't even know what my stance on Geno is anymore.

He'd drum up hype for a specific crowd but the majority of the modern day playerbase would either not know who the hell he is nor care.

Sakurai wanted him in at least at one point, but Nintendo's calling the shots for the DLC this time, so their choices are naturally gonna be about profit for the most part.

And unlike BK, Geno doesn't wasn't the lead of a once-big name franchise.

If Nintendo and Square decided to and agreed on this, it'd be only for the sake of satisfying an extremely specific group of people. I'm not sure I can see that happening.
My view on Geno has been:

He inspired the Mii Gunner. Arm Cannon's arent exactly the way a shooter would generally be conceived- as seen with some of the preMiium costumes. The arm cannon was a way Sakurai could honor Geno.
... and that this is exactly why he makes the perfect preMiium. I don't think it's a coincidence we started getting the upgraded Mii's right around when the second fighters pass would have been decided. I expect a good Geno costume.

I brought it up once. Even if you could get it functioning in the context of Super Smash Bros. anyone who couldn't hear the game for whatever reason wouldn't be able to play the character, and that's a big no no.

EDIT: Even barring that, how are you supposed to keep a tempo when your match sounds like this?

Speaking of accessibility issues, Inkling color blind mode when? I'm not personally color blind, but it's an issue I'd like to see resolved nonetheless.
I brought it up too..

Also mentioned the difference between tempo (speed) and rhythm (timing). They are completely different.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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...since I guess I'm the Min Min guy (for guessing her and defending why that made sense), I'll chime in!
There is definitely a theme to Rhythm Heaven. It's Rhythm. (Why is Min Min even relevant here? Maybe you're the Spring Man guy!?)

I'd imagine that's why the Chorus Kids were the popular idea in leaks- because having a three in one character allows rhythm to be in the character, not in extraneous details of each stage.

Reading a lot of these responses, it's clear to me a musician needs to be involved in creating the character.
He's actually the Max Brass guy. I'm...not entirely sure why he brought up Min Min.

I think the Chorus Kids were the popular idea because they were in the Gematsu leak. I don't think it's an idea we would have come up with on our own. They're not really the mascots (since the series doesn't really have a consistent face) nor are they the most prominent characters (that'd be Karate Joe). If they really were an idea that Rhythm Heaven fans could get behind, I'd imagine it'd be one of those Sakurai ideas that would leave us both scratching our heads and loving every second.

He inspired the Mii Gunner. Arm Cannon's arent exactly the way a shooter would generally be conceived...
Considering how close the character is to Samus (to the point where it has all of her Special Moves) I don't think that's the case.

I brought it up too..

Also mentioned the difference between tempo (speed) and rhythm (timing). They are completely different.
Hm...I must have glossed over that statement somehow because I'm sure I read that post.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
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Sep 8, 2014
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somewhere in Canada
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Pft. Just have online that doesn't suck. It'll be better for everyone.
Why have that when you can just pressure people into buying a shoddy netcode so that they're not left behind?

I like Nintendo, but the Switch Era has done nothing but bring out their scummiest side lately, from their mobile game's aggressive gacha systems (FEH being the closest thing to an exception with how generous it can be at times) to the absolute lack of effort on the anniversary of their biggest IP (they actually just took open source fanmade emulators and called it a day), and obviously timed releases are also pretty shady.

Steve's release in general also shows how this can bleed out to other studios such as Sora Ltd. and Bandai Namco, because even after two bugfix patches, Steve is still unpolished and has a couple of glitches under his sleeves.

2020 has showed how little Nintendo cares about the consumers and how much more they care about their wallets.
 
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