Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[osby]

A big thing holding back non game characters seems to be liscencing. We have prescidence in content with non game origins with the likes of Dracula and stuff.

From what I can tell, Amaterasu as a mythological figure is public domain, so I think she'd be in the clear.

I'm sure she'd be fine. We have a lot of Kid Icarus content that outright references Ancient Greek mythology and Palutena's name is literally comes from Pallas Athena. Same with Joker's Persona being Arsene Lupin.

They're all very loosely faithful video game adaptations of public domain characters with their own, distinct identities so it's not like taking a manga character and putting them into Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly, I think if Guilty Gear or BlazeBlue get a Fighter at all, it would like;ly be handled like ARMS. In which that the Fighter would likely be some random one off since ArcSys doesn't have a consistent mascot. May could be very sick not gonna lie. Milla Rage, so many others. It could be very hype.

Sol is literally the titular Guilty Gear and both Sol and Ragna have major story significance, not to mention that unlike every other game where you beat people up besides Divekick, ARMS characters literally all share the same moves outside of their gimmick

 

[kirbsmash]

I want sol oh so much.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think unlike ARMS, Guity Gear has had enough installments to establish Sol Badguy as the lead character or face of the series.

 

[kirbsmash]

I think unlike ARMS, Guity Gear has had enough installments to establish Sol Badguy as the lead character or face of the series.

What gave you that impression? That he has an 2nd form that is called Order-Sol or the fact he's voiced by his creator.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

We have Bayonetta. So I'm assuming that only extreme cases like Mai are prohibited.

nawww Jack o 100% wouldnt pass

 

[JOJONumber691]

May and Milla aren't one-offs and have appeared in every Guilty Gear game, though? And while I guess ArcSys may not have a clear mascot, it's clear from GG's and Blazblue's advertising who those series' mascots are.

I was referring to characters outside of Sol and Ky, but whatever.

 

[KillerCage]

Honestly, I think if Guilty Gear or BlazeBlue get a Fighter at all, it would like;ly be handled like ARMS. In which that the Fighter would likely be some random one off since ArcSys doesn't have a consistent mascot. May could be very sick not gonna lie. Milla Rage, so many others. It could be very hype.

May and Milla aren't one-offs and have appeared in every Guilty Gear game, though? And while I guess ArcSys may not have a clear mascot, it's clear from GG's and Blazblue's advertising who those series' mascots are.

If Blazblue does get a character in Smash, it would be either...

or...

Ragna is the protagonist while Noel could be seen as the mascot.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

The ironic thing about that is the fact that Mai's series is predominantly T-rated for one reason or another here in the States, while Bayo is a hard M. It's just funny to think about for some of us.

pretty sure Bayo is M for the tortures she uses on the angels, Iron Maiden, Guillotine, Cooked alive via rotisserie, being pulled up by a chain around the neck and all that

 

[Michael the Spikester]

People are arguing against Amaterasu because she's based off on a Japanese goddess?

Whelp best to remove Dracula then because he too is based off of a non-video game character.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The ironic thing about that is the fact that Mai's series is predominantly T-rated for one reason or another here in the States, while Bayo is a hard M. It's just funny to think about for some of us.

At least Bayonetta’s wearing pants, Mai gives off the illusion of going commando

 

[Cutie Gwen]

People are arguing against Amaterasu because she's based off on a Japanese goddess?

Whelp best to remove Dracula then because he too is based off of a non-video game character.

Please point out which post genuinely argued that as the only one I saw is "Hey isn't it funny how people argue this occaisonally but Ammy never faces that argument?"

 

[TwiceEXE]

People are arguing against Amaterasu because she's based off on a Japanese goddess?

Whelp best to remove Dracula then because he too is based off of a non-video game character.

Nope, not arguing against. Simply making discussion. It's just an interesting scenario that some characters find themselves in. Like Lu Bu and Amaterasu: origins outside of video games but with a distinctly unique video game representation.

I'm not debating the merits of their inclusion, only discussing the grey area they live in.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Hasn't Guilty Gear been around since the 90s?

Certainly enough time to establish Sol being the protagonist and mascot.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

People are arguing against Amaterasu because she's based off on a Japanese goddess?

Whelp best to remove Dracula then because he too is based off of a non-video game character.

Amaterasu gonna bite their ankles

 

[JOJONumber691]

If Blazblue does get a character in Smash, it would be either...

View attachment 290145

or...

View attachment 290144

Ragna is the protagonist while Noel could be seen as the mascot.

Either way Guilty Gear is more likely so point still stands.

 

[SNEKeater]

From what I heard, Blazblue was created after Arc Sys lost the rights to Guilty Gear (to SEGA I think).
It was only in the past few years Arc got GG back.
In that time, Blazblue found a foothold commercially in the East and West.

First time I heard this. I really doubt this, even if because the series has received new games/updates/spin-offs in a frequent way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilty_Gear

The biggest gap is between GG Accent Core Plus R and Xrd, which took 4-5 years.

Honestly, I think if Guilty Gear or BlazeBlue get a Fighter at all, it would like;ly be handled like ARMS. In which that the Fighter would likely be some random one off since ArcSys doesn't have a consistent mascot. May could be very sick not gonna lie. Milla Rage, so many others. It could be very hype.

I strongly doubt this. If GG/Blazblue were owned by Nintendo then maaaaaaaaaaaybe, but still, both series have more years of history, not to say both definitely have a bigger influence and importance than ARMS for the industry, even if the contribution they made it's small.

I don't see any other viable option for GG besides Sol, the same goes for Blazblue and Ragna. In Sol's case, Gwen has already said it but it's not like he's that kind of protagonist that barely has any major role in the story and the lore of it's series or that he's around the story only because he's the main character. Sol is an important character in the Guilty Gear universe.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

First time I heard this. I really doubt this, even if because the series has received new games/updates/spin-offs in a frequent way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilty_Gear

The biggest gap is between GG Accent Core Plus R and Xrd, which took 4-5 years.



I strongly doubt this. If GG/Blazblue were owned by Nintendo then maaaaaaaaaaaybe, but still, both series have more years of history, not to say both definitely have a bigger influence and importance than ARMS for the industry, even if the contribution they made it's small.

I don't see any other viable option for GG besides Sol, the same goes for Blazblue and Ragna. In Sol's case, Gwen has already said it but it's not like he's that kind of protagonist that barely has any major role in the story and the lore of it's series or that he's around the story only because he's the main character. Sol is an important character in the Guilty Gear universe.

Sammy SEGA had the rights to GG and Arc had to get them back, only doing so after making a spiritual succesor so yeah that checks out

 

[JOJONumber691]

First time I heard this. I really doubt this, even if because the series has received new games/updates/spin-offs in a frequent way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilty_Gear

The biggest gap is between GG Accent Core Plus R and Xrd, which took 4-5 years.



I strongly doubt this. If GG/Blazblue were owned by Nintendo then maaaaaaaaaaaybe, but still, both series have more years of history, not to say both definitely have a bigger influence and importance than ARMS for the industry, even if the contribution they made it's small.

I don't see any other viable option for GG besides Sol, the same goes for Blazblue and Ragna. In Sol's case, Gwen has already said it but it's not like he's that kind of protagonist that barely has any major role in the story and the lore of it's series or that he's around the story only because he's the main character. Sol is an important character in the Guilty Gear universe.

True, but Dr. Coyle is incredibly important to the ARMS Lore so why wasn't she chosen if that matters?

 

[SNEKeater]

Sammy SEGA had the rights to GG and Arc had to get them back, only doing so after making a spiritual succesor so yeah that checks out

**** I guess the title of this theme is an accurate representation of me right now

Sol Badguy now confirmed as our 4th SEGA rep let's go.

 

[KillerCage]

Hasn't Guilty Gear been around since the 90s?

Certainly enough time to establish Sol being the protagonist and mascot.

Guilty Gear first released in 1998 in arcades.
Arc Sys would lose Guilty Gear when their publisher Sammy merged with SEGA in 2004 and wouldn't get it back until 2011.
Blazblue was created during this period as a spirital successor to Guilty Gear in 2008.

 

[SNEKeater]

True, but Dr. Coyle is incredibly important to the ARMS Lore so why wasn't she chosen if that matters?

The big difference is that ARMS is barely 3-4 years old, it's a new Nintendo IP and it's not like Springman made enough of a big splash to make people angry or confused in case he was not chosen.
For that reason and other circumstances the whole ARMS debate made sense. They had room to go with a character that wasn't the "main guy" in this case.

Being important to the lore doesn't mean you'll get in. And Dr. Coyle being important to ARMS' lore doesn't mean she's the only one who's important in ARMS universe, by the way. Also, admittedly story and lore usually aren't what you think first when you talk about a fighting game series.

Picking anyone else instead of Sol for Guilty Gear would be really weird. I mean, Millia's probably the closest thing to a main I have in Guilty Gear Xrd, but I'd still pick Sol to rep Guilty Gear. It's the logic choice. Like, Chun-Li can be more interesting and cool for some people, but if you wanna go with Street Fighter in a mascot crossover like Smash, there's no other correct choice than Ryu.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Guilty Gear first released in 1998 in arcades.
Arc Sys would lose Guilty Gear when their publisher Sammy merged with SEGA in 2004 and wouldn't get it back until 2011.
Blazblue was created during this period as a spirital successor to Guilty Gear in 2008.

2011 is still enough time to establish Sol as the mascot and protagonist.

 

[PeridotGX]

geno supporters have their little hats to show their support for their character, it's time for the Regigigas fans to have the same

 

[CureParfait]

Honestly, I think if Guilty Gear or BlazeBlue get a Fighter at all, it would like;ly be handled like ARMS. In which that the Fighter would likely be some random one off since ArcSys doesn't have a consistent mascot. May could be very sick not gonna lie. Milla Rage, so many others. It could be very hype.

I don't think Guilty Gear would be handled like Arms but I think the chances of Blazblue being handled like Arms is a higher chance than Guilty Gear due to Ragna and Noel.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

**** I guess the title of this theme is an accurate representation of me right now

Sol Badguy now confirmed as our 4th SEGA rep let's go.

Daisuke be like "GIMME A BREAK YOU DAMN! JUST TRYIN' TO GET BACK THE RIGHTS AGAIN"

geno supporters have their little hats to show their support for their character, it's time for the Regigigas fans to have the same

Regigigas fans celebrate as they finally got Protect and Rest on their garbage mon lmaoooo maybe it can finally be somewhat usable now

 

[GoodGrief741]

it's not like Springman made enough of a big splash to make people angry or confused in case he was not chosen.

He kinda did though

 

[MooMew64]

While I know next to nothing on the Guilty Gear franchise, I just want to say on the topic of Min Min, she was very much a specific and special case due to her being a direct request from Yubuki. ARMS' "everyone is the protagonist" motto is not something every other game will share, and if something like BlazBlue or Guilty Gear were to get into Smash, their most recent protagonist or longest standing face would probably be the likeliest candidate given the precedents we currently have with Ultimate's DLC.

Basically: I think some people have been looking too deeply into Min Min's inclusion ever since June and in some cases, are applying her inclusion to mean something for characters that don't have the same factors in play for their respective series. Min Min does not circumvent the trends, she still fits them perfectly given the unique nature of Yubuki's view of the ARMS cast. I don't think using Min Min's factors for non-protagonist characters work when she directly benefited from the nature of her own series considering her a protagonist.

Those are just my two cents, though.

 

[Garteam]

I largely missed the first vs third party discussion, but I figured I'd throw my thoughts in as one of the most vocal first-party advocates in this thread.

First, I think this entire debate is built on a misunderstanding that causes a lot of tension in this discussion. Namely, both sides assume the other is adopting the most radical position possible. Those advocating for first parties often see third-party supporters as exclusively wanting their desired characters from across gaming's landscape to build Smash into their own official M.U.G.E.N, trampling any potentially unique or fun characters that don't fit this idea of what Smash ought to be in the process. Similarly, third-party supporters often see first-party supporters as gatekeepers trying to keep fun and unique characters out of Smash to maintain some sense of brand purity. However, it's rare to find someone who wants exclusively first or third parties. While people's exact preferences may lean one way or another, most people want some combination between Nintendo's lads and cool characters from across other great games.

That being said, I think the argument that Sakurai ought to focus primarily on third parties because casting the widest net possible requires leaning heavily on third parties' characters is pretty flawed.

Yes, Dixie Kong, Bandana Waddle Dee, Rex, and Impa are not the characters that are going to have Joe Schmo jumping out of his seat. However, it is unlikely Dante, 2B, Lloyd, or Sol Badguy will do this either. The very general public is interested in a specific set of characters that have essentially transcended the medium and become modern pop culture icons, characters like Crash Bandicoot, Master Chief, and Ezio. Yes, this set of "pop culture icons" people desire in Smash does consist mostly of third parties, but that has to do with the fact that most of Nintendo's pop culture icons like Mario, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, and Link have been in Smash for a long time. In fact, that's why I think it's so weird that people are using Waluigi of all characters as their example of a first-party that wouldn't catch much attention. Most people who have played a video game in the last 20 years know who the character is because nearly everyone has played Mario Kart and his exclusion from Smash was such a meme that it was picked up by mainstream news outlets like Washington Post. As such, I think people are indulging a little too much in wishful thinking when they believe that their characters who are, in the grand scheme of things, relatively obscure in the overall pop culture pantheon would receive Steve levels of attention just because they aren't a Nintendo character.

I honestly think the best demonstration of this is something Smashtuber Little Z said upon Steve's reveal (WARNING: SWEAR WORDS):

Little Z: "I always want Avatar Aang, Waluigi, Crash, or... anyone I ****ing recognize."
Bigwinbeer: "Yeah, recently I don't know any of the characters."
Little Z: "I didn't know anyone in the last Fighter's Pass or Min Min."

Even with 4/5 characters in the first Fighter's Pass being third parties, the "big net" a lot of people have been discussing in this thread has not been cast. My friends are relatively knowledgable on what's going on in the gaming world, but they thought Joker was from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, questioned why Banjo and Kazooie were added when Duck Hunt was already there, and claimed Terry looked like the fusion of a trucker and a member of 90's boy band. They didn't know who any of those characters were, so they definitely weren't excited over their possible inclusion. The only exception to this in the first Fighter's Pass was Hero, but even he has only transcended into a mainstream icon in certain countries. Third parties aren't guaranteed to catch the attention of the entire public.

However, is this a bad thing? Of course not. In spite of lacking an all-star lineup of mainstream icons, the first Fighter's Pass was awesome. It included a ton of enjoyable characters with awesome new playstyles. Ever since Melee, where Sakurai realized he had enough of his bases covered to begin experimenting with weird ideas in the roster, Smash has been an expert at giving us things we never knew we wanted. Few went to bat for the Ice Climbers, a Game and Watch character, R.O.B, the trainer from Wii Fit, or the dog from Duck Hunt with a duck on his back, but even fewer argue against their inclusion now. While none of the characters discussed, be it first or third-party, really reach this range of obscurity, but the general principle remains the same. Dante's inclusion would be a lot of fun, so who cares if some people are unfamiliar with the character? Same thing with Bandana Waddle Dee, Dixie Kong, Lloyd, Geno, 2B, or anyone else who isn't a massive star. There are 20 million people who own a copy of Smash Ultimate, some people are not going to know who certain characters are, and that's okay. Arguing that the Smash roster ought to primarily be decided by who will get the biggest initial reaction amongst the greatest number of people seems to be a short road to throwing out lots of would-be cool ideas and gutting a lot of the flavour that's made Smash's rosters so great in the past.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

He kinda did though

Outside of 1 person, everyone I saw who felt Spring Man got shafted only wanted him so they could go "SEEEEEE ASSISTS STILL HAVE A CHANCE", so that's not really Spring Man's impact

 

[GoodGrief741]

Outside of 1 person, everyone I saw who felt Spring Man got shafted only wanted him so they could go "SEEEEEE ASSISTS STILL HAVE A CHANCE", so that's not really Spring Man's impact

Nah, you just saw what you wanted to see because you were clearly dreading the possibility that Spring Man would be the pick. Every day you posted about how mad you'd be if they had given us a months-long waiting game only to end in the "obvious" and "boring" choice.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nah, you just saw what you wanted to see because you were clearly dreading the possibility that Spring Man would be the pick. Every day you posted about how mad you'd be if they had given us a months-long waiting game only to end in the "obvious" and "boring" choice.

Yeah, cause my issue would be hyping that it could be anyone only leading to the guy that would have gotten in anyway would be a letdown. If they pulled this on any franchise, I'd have the same mentality even if it was for a game I greatly enjoy. Though the fact that only that one person was still mad about Spring Man missing the cut while everyone else almost instantly forgot about him doesn't hurt my claims

 

[SNEKeater]

He kinda did though

Well, you're not wrong. But I think it was more because of "what, they're not going with the protagonist?", which is or was pretty much a staple for Smash, rather than "wait, the ARMS characters isn't gonna be Springman??".
Not dismissing Springman or his fans, I was one of those who thought he was going to be the chosen one, and in a certain sense I wanted him over anyone else from ARMS. But I don't know, Springman doesn't scream legacy or anything like that to me. he

In the other hand, it's not like Sol Badguy is as iconic and popular as Ryu or Cloud, I mean he's still from a relatively niche series, but he certainly has more history in his shoulders than Springman. ARMS situation was pretty much a one time thing, and to be honest I'm pretty convinced if ARMS had 15 or 20 years of history and therefore, a bigger/louder fanbase and a bigger impact, Springman would have been the one to get in.

 

[Goombaic]

I feel like the closest we'll get to an ARMS situation again will be with Soulcalibur as it has multiple potential "mascots."

 

[Aerospherology]

I feel like the closest we'll get to an ARMS situation again will be with Soulcalibur as it has multiple potential "mascots."

yoda is in

 

[TwiceEXE]

yoda is in

No way. Nintendo would definitely choose Link as a Soul Caliber rep.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Yeah, cause my issue would be hyping that it could be anyone only leading to the guy that would have gotten in anyway would be a letdown. If they pulled this on any franchise, I'd have the same mentality even if it was for a game I greatly enjoy. Though the fact that only that one person was still mad about Spring Man missing the cut while everyone else almost instantly forgot about him doesn't hurt my claims

"Fact"

Well, you're not wrong. But I think it was more because of "what, they're not going with the protagonist?", which is or was pretty much a staple for Smash, rather than "wait, the ARMS characters isn't gonna be Springman??"

I think the two questions mean the same, really. Nobody would have batted an eye at Spring Man getting in, nor did anyone ever question his status as protagonist before the reveal.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Why would it be weird? It's a key mechanic of CT's battle system. I think it'd be very fitting as Crono's gimmick.

sigh I'm sure Sakurai would agree with you. Which is why Crono will end up being just as unplayable to me as Hero...

A big thing holding back non game characters seems to be liscencing. We have prescidence in content with non game origins with the likes of Dracula and stuff.

From what I can tell, Amaterasu as a mythological figure is public domain, so I think she'd be in the clear.

Mostly this.

Like you say,Okami Amaterasu is even further removed from it's origin than Castlevania's Dracula is from Bram Stoker's book.

Geralt is the same goddamn character from the same book series owned by the same original author. And people who are like "But he has two swords! Completely different! Video game character!" are just grasping at straws.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As long as he yells, "JUNEN HIEN DAI YO!" It's fine by me.

So, would you be disappointed if they gave him an English voice?

True, but Dr. Coyle is incredibly important to the ARMS Lore so why wasn't she chosen if that matters?

Because they picked their favorite rather than the best representative.

 

[osby]

So, would you be disappointed if they gave him an English voice?

Bayo has an English voice and she still yells that.