Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SKX31]

It is disappointing to see Pokemon continue down it's descending trajectory ambition and, arguably, quality-wise. Especially when you compare it to how other Nintendo series with different leadership continue to evolve themselves. Prior to quarantine, I wasn't planning on even getting these games, and until I see them sort of break the mold and really bring the series into what feels like a contemporary place, I think I'm going to keep my distance.

There's an argument to be made though that Pokemon as a franchise has never had the pressure - or even the ability to innovate and cultivate ambition, quite like EA Sports / 2K / The Sims etc. (I believe one can add many mobile franchises into this list too).

1. Pokemon dominated its genre from the very start, much like how EA Sports practically monopolized NFL via Madden and soccer via FIFA. Digimon's the only competitor most can even name.

2. The ready-made audience Pokemon has generally does not mind spending $60 on a new Pokemon game every 2-3 years, because really, that's not a lot of money per 12+ months. That does discourage innovation - "why would we needlessly innovate when we have a steady source of money?". The same logic goes for EA Sports' games - its audience generally doesn't mind shelling out $60 yearly because it's a rather small price... even if the changes between releases are even smaller there. And microtransactions don't appear to be much at first glance, $5 here, $1 there... (which can easily spiral).

[EDIT: One can argue that there's a major reason why Mario / Zelda innovates beyond Miyamoto et al's reasons, and that's because they are often built with the consoles and showing off what one can do with the consoles in mind. This has generally not been the case for Pokemon, not to the same extent.]

3. The Pokemon games have historically focused on pick-up-and-play as well as being on handhelds. That doesn't leave as much room for a RPG to experiment between gens. Likewise, EA Sports' games have historically focused around making the connection to real sports that are easily grasped for say the 8 year old kid who's about to buy the first FIFA / Pokemon / whatever of his / her life.

Collorary: The mechanics introduced in battles and other places are generally interesting ideas... but it feels as if TPC / Game Freaks' spinning in place since Mega Evolutions / Z Moves / Dynamaxing occupy much of the same space. I'd argue that that shows there's a willingness within Game Freak to experiment... it's just that they appear to be stuck in the mud. As in "We need a new battle mechanic to help distinguish this upcoming gen, but we also need it to be flashy and awe-inspiring". Especially if TPC / GF indeed work on a "Time Table" of sorts.

But hey, I do believe that there is quite a lot one can do (The Alolan games showed that one could change the game's structure, I wish that they'd changed that again for SwSh). And, why not expand the interactivity between Trainer and Pokemon? Pokemon games like SwSh have made noble attempts here, so lets take that further:

genshin impact good pic.twitter.com/EaKtfHGpMr

— Tate (@oldentot) September 28, 2020

Someone pointed out to me once that Amiibo Theory is basically the end result of teachers telling you to show all your work when you can just do it in your head. When you think about it, they have a point.

I dunno why (must've been my mind drifting hardcore), but that reminded me of the time a discussion about Pac Man's pellets (his side B) derailed into the time someone OD'd on Flintstone Gummies as a kid:

 

[Cosmic77]

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if you liked Byleth but were still restraining yourself from discussing him nine months later after his reveal? He wasn't your favorite character, but you like the FE series and would enjoy discussing his playstyle. You never initiate a conversation though because you've seen how it plays out several times before. A majority of people focus entirely on the negatives and almost instinctively switch what should be a normal discussion into one about ethics, an unwillingness to listen to fans, and unwanted shill promotion.

Byleth is not the same as SwSh, but the principle behind trying having a conversation about them is. People have had MONTHS to vent and let out their frustration for both of these things. If we can reach a point where we can have a normal conversation about Byleth without things flying into "I'm still bitter" territory, why can't we do the same with SwSh? We're still unable to talk about Crown Tundra, new Pokémon, or really anything involving SwSh without everything devolving into the 158th rant about all the things wrong with Gen 8.

 

[Shroob]

I feel as though you missed this part:


When I said, "To a lesser extent" it meant that I am far more understanding of why Pokemon fans are upset about their respective issue. Being disappointed in a game is different than being upset about a character, stage, and music among many others. However, the behavior of those who are angry is actually relatively similar. Comparisons don't have to always be 1:1 in their entirety to make a shred of sense; I am aware Byleth isn't the same size as a mainline Pokemon game, but the reactions to both of them were the same, with neither being especially effective.

Plenty of folks mad about Pokemon acted as if "Game Freak burnt my house down", which is seemingly similar to how folks essentially acted like, "How could you burn my house down, Byleth?!"

In terms of seeing a series you grow up with changing, that's just life. Things change, even if you don't want it to.

In terms of your last line, if you really thought that's what I meant then I don't really think you understood my post. I clearly said I understand that folks are upset and why they're upset. But in terms of Sword and Shield, just like Byleth, what's done is done. The game is out. You can't change that. You can advocate for changing certain things, but advocating for something is not the same as complaining and being incredibly toxic to other people in the community.

Otherwise the most effective way to not support the changes the devs make is to simply not purchase the game. I know that's not exciting and probably not what folks want to hear, but it's the truth. Unfortunately, Sword and Shield did pretty well so that may not even be effective.

And that's the thing. It did well, so all we can do is continue to voice our grievances. We know our voices won't be heard in the end because frankly, why should they care, but does that mean we should just shut up and roll over? I think not.


We're not going to stop, because the series has taken a turn we don't like, and we won't continue supporting a product like this, but just like how EA gets called out for their scummy and shady business practices, Gamefreak will not be exempt for this either. Will it 'do' anything in the end? Honestly, no. People are dedicated to the franchise, it's always going to sell, but does that mean people should also just say "Ho hum, sucks but nothing I can do?"


No.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

And that's the thing. It did well, so all we can do is continue to voice our grievances. We know our voices won't be heard in the end because frankly, why should they care, but does that mean we should just shut up and roll over? I think not.


We're not going to stop, because the series has taken a turn we don't like, and we won't continue supporting a product like this, but just like how EA gets called out for their scummy and shady business practices, Gamefreak will not be exempt for this either. Will it 'do' anything in the end? Honestly, no. People are dedicated to the franchise, it's always going to sell, but does that mean people should also just say "Ho hum, sucks but nothing I can do?"


No.

I literally said to keep doing that, and to advocate for it. I agree with you.

Being clearly angry about it isn't going to convince anybody else though. That's the thing.

 

[Teeb147]

Pokemon is cool. I think they could've done a better job with the last entries. That's about it :D

Hopefully they don't take away from the sales that the game is good as it is, cuz I did expect better for the switch, not gonna lie.
Also as a non-kid, I'd like a harder difficulty. That's all I'll say. I didn't expect this long of a convo on it

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if you liked Byleth but were still restraining yourself from discussing him nine months later after his reveal? He wasn't your favorite character, but you like the FE series and would enjoy discussing his playstyle. You never initiate a conversation though because you've seen how it plays out several times before. A majority of people focus entirely on the negatives and almost instinctively switch what should be a normal discussion into one about ethics, an unwillingness to listen to fans, and unwanted shill promotion.

Byleth is not the same as SwSh, but the principle behind trying having a conversation about them is. People have had MONTHS to vent and let out their frustration for both of these things. If we can reach a point where we can have a normal conversation about Byleth without things flying into "I'm still bitter" territory, why can't we do the same with SwSh? We're still unable to talk about Crown Tundra, new Pokémon, or really anything involving SwSh without everything devolving into the 158th rant about all the things wrong with Gen 8.

Byleth is a one and done deal. SwoShi is a game that keeps finding ways to be relevant from announcement, new info, the game's release, the DLC announcement, info on the first pack, release of the first pack, info on the second pack and release of the second pack. People ARE talking about Crown Tundra stuff, you're just ignoring the negativity which isn't bad in of itself, but you're a liar if you're saying nobody on this thread or even just this page failed to mention anything about today's news

 

[I.D.]

D...did they really just put her entire name in the acronym? Why not just call her Kosmos then?

Recursive acronym - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Check the fictional examples section for additional info.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Can we go back to talking about Geno?

 

[N3ON]

There's an argument to be made though that Pokemon as a franchise has never had the pressure - or even the ability to innovate and cultivate ambition, quite like EA Sports / 2K / The Sims etc. (I believe one can add many mobile franchises into this list too).

I agree, and said something to that extent in the quoted part of that post, so I didn't bother restating it. The backlash to their complacency is hardly tangible in the face of their continued success.

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if you liked Byleth but were still restraining yourself from discussing him nine months later after his reveal? He wasn't your favorite character, but you like the FE series and would enjoy discussing his playstyle. You never initiate a conversation though because you've seen how it plays out several times before. A majority of people focus entirely on the negatives and almost instinctively switch what should be a normal discussion into one about ethics, an unwillingness to listen to fans, and unwanted shill promotion.

Byleth is not the same as SwSh, but the principle behind trying having a conversation about them is. People have had MONTHS to vent and let out their frustration for both of these things. If we can reach a point where we can have a normal conversation about Byleth without things flying into "I'm still bitter" territory, why can't we do the same with SwSh? We're still unable to talk about Crown Tundra, new Pokémon, or really anything involving SwSh without everything devolving into the 158th rant about all the things wrong with Gen 8.

Probably because Sw/Sh keeps getting content and Byleth doesn't, and today there was more content revealed, so it puts it back into active discussion, but the new content wasn't compelling enough to change peoples' opinions on the total product, so you hear the same opinions resurface.

Let's be real, the day of a Sw/Sh presentation isn't the best day to ask why people won't stop talking about Sw/Sh.

You'll notice that once the conversation shifted towards ARMS and Min Min, the conversation around Byleth diminished. Once a new Pokemon game falls into the spotlight, the discussion around Sw/Sh will decrease. And that will probably be next year.

You can bet that if we somehow got another FE character, the conversation around Byleth would come roaring back. Hell, it'll probably come back if and when we just get another FE game. Is any of it productive? No. But productivity isn't really the point of any of this. All of this is more a diversion than anything.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Anyway, Geno is IN and there's nothing you can do about it.

Days since last Geno discussion: 0.

Muahahaha

Swamp Sensei I would ALMOST say you ninja'd me, but that would take away the sheer power this turn of events has revealed.

 

[Teeb147]

Don't forget there's Tracer too. But people don't want to entertain it XD

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Don't forget there's Tracer too. But people don't want to entertain it XD

Bruh I wish- it seems like she's disconfirmed though considering Jeff Kaplan has said, "Nintendo can take whoever they want for Smash!" since Min Min was revealed.

Sadly it looks like we won't get the heroes Smash wants from Overwatch...

Unless...

Spoiler: The Hero we need

 

[Hokori]

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if you liked Byleth but were still restraining yourself from discussing him nine months later after his reveal? He wasn't your favorite character, but you like the FE series and would enjoy discussing his playstyle. You never initiate a conversation though because you've seen how it plays out several times before. A majority of people focus entirely on the negatives and almost instinctively switch what should be a normal discussion into one about ethics, an unwillingness to listen to fans, and unwanted shill promotion.

Byleth is not the same as SwSh, but the principle behind trying having a conversation about them is. People have had MONTHS to vent and let out their frustration for both of these things. If we can reach a point where we can have a normal conversation about Byleth without things flying into "I'm still bitter" territory, why can't we do the same with SwSh? We're still unable to talk about Crown Tundra, new Pokémon, or really anything involving SwSh without everything devolving into the 158th rant about all the things wrong with Gen 8.

As a fan of FE, sometimes I sit back and think about the Smash fans that haven't played an FE game. This was mainly the case right after the Byleth reveal.

Are they thinking...

A) Hm, there are so many Fire Emblem characters, maybe I'll give the series a try sometime just to see why it's so popular.

or...

B) Yooo, wtf are all of these anime sword fighters doing all over my video game?! I'd rather burn my tongue on hot soup than see another one of these characters take up a slot! Waste of space! **** Fire Emblem, who asked for them?!

They could very well be thinking something else, but I only felt like including two options

I'm at the point where I don't even bother discussing Fire Emblem characters unless I'm talking to irl friends that are also fans of the series. No fun entering a chat when FE is the topic and unknowingly triggering someone on Character Crush Wednesday because I'm not outright dumping on Byleth's inclusion and Byleth is the reason why their waifu isn't in the Fighters Pass, yadda yadda.

As for my own opinion on Byleth's inclusion, even though I'm a fan of the series, I definitely didn't care to see him since there's a bunch of others I still want to see in Smash over yet another FE character, but I'm not gonna lose my **** over it. But I will say the team definitely did a good job with them, imo.

But anyway...

Upcoming CP7 character...I'd love for a surprise and see someone like Isaac (there's a bunch of others, but Isaac is the one I feel like pointing out atm).

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Unless...

Spoiler: The Hero we need

View attachment 287292

Pepsiman?

Pffffftttt Everybody knows the real caffeinated drink rep we deserve is Dunkaccino

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well if you want an actual new topic...

How about Agumon? Do you think a Digimon has a place in Smash?

 

[Wunderwaft]

Can we go back to talking about Geno?

For his Side B he uses Geno Whirl

 

[Teeb147]

Bruh I wish- it seems like she's disconfirmed though considering Jeff Kaplan has said, "Nintendo can take whoever they want for Smash!" since Min Min was revealed.

Sadly it looks like we won't get the heroes Smash wants from Overwatch...

Unless...

Developers can say whatever they want. So long as they don't reveal if they're in.
Lowers the chances slightly, but come on, dunno why people gotta deconfirm everything, then you have nothing to talk about.

 

[Shroob]

As a fan of FE, sometimes I sit back and think about the Smash fans that haven't played an FE game. This was mainly the case right after the Byleth reveal.

Are they thinking...

A) Hm, there are so many Fire Emblem characters, maybe I'll give the series a try sometime just to see why it's so popular.

or...

B) Yooo, wtf are all of these anime sword fighters doing all over my video game?! I'd rather burn my tongue on hot soup than see another one of these characters take up a slot! Waste of space! **** Fire Emblem, who asked for them?!

They could very well be thinking something else, but I only felt like including two options


I'm at the point where I don't even bother discussing Fire Emblem characters unless I'm talking to irl friends that are also fans of the series. No fun entering a chat when FE is the topic and unknowingly triggering someone on Character Crush Wednesday because I'm not outright dumping on Byleth's inclusion and Byleth is the reason why their waifu isn't in the Fighters Pass, yadda yadda.

And then there's me

Someone who actually wanted 8 FE characters just so we could unironically do 8 man Smash with just FE.

 

[SKX31]

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if you liked Byleth but were still restraining yourself from discussing him nine months later after his reveal? He wasn't your favorite character, but you like the FE series and would enjoy discussing his playstyle. You never initiate a conversation though because you've seen how it plays out several times before. A majority of people focus entirely on the negatives and almost instinctively switch what should be a normal discussion into one about ethics, an unwillingness to listen to fans, and unwanted shill promotion.

Byleth is not the same as SwSh, but the principle behind trying having a conversation about them is. People have had MONTHS to vent and let out their frustration for both of these things. If we can reach a point where we can have a normal conversation about Byleth without things flying into "I'm still bitter" territory, why can't we do the same with SwSh? We're still unable to talk about Crown Tundra, new Pokémon, or really anything involving SwSh without everything devolving into the 158th rant about all the things wrong with Gen 8.

I have experience with the FIFA / NHL franchises myself (having multiple FIFA and NHL games in my collection). And well... the yearly releases complaints have been going on since I was a teen at least. "They only changed the roster!" and all that.

And that was before Ultimate Team became a part of FIFA / NHL, and Ultimate Team is one of the main reasons why microtransactions and lootboxes exist today in the state that they are. Now, the previous complaints are mixed with "They're neglecting other modes and just working on Ultimate Team!". My point is, it does become a major aspect of how a lot of people talk about the franchises.

I'd argue - au contraire - that it is possible to still discuss the games, but one has to steer the conversation a bit more. If I want to talk about lets say FIFA / NHL but don't want to get dragged into microtransaction talk? The recent changes to those games are a start. Or the new features. It's not going to solve the thing entirely, but it reduces the problem a bit.

As for my own personal opinions on Crown Tundra etc...

I've never been super-interested in Sword / Shield myself, although. Maybe it's because I've simply sated my Pokemon fix - the most recent I've played is Sun (and my most recent Sports game is NBA 2K17, just before the 2K series got too micro-transaction-y for my liking). Still though, Calyrex looks quite neat, but I have no ****ing clue how that one would fight in Smash. If it had been in Pokken Tournament I'd have more of a clue (because lets face it, I would've also been a giant ? re: Chandelure's moveset if it weren't for Pokken. I'm amazingly innovative, I know). If you'd ask me to pick a Gen 8 rep for FP2, I'd be kinda boring and pick Urshifu...

...But then give Urshifu many moves from Kuma / Panda and give it the craziest, most disrespectful taunts.

EDIT: And I'm pretty neutral on Sword / Shield. Haven't played it, but it looks decent at least.

Anyway, Geno is IN and there's nothing you can do about it.

Days since last Geno discussion: 0.

Muahahaha

Swamp Sensei I would ALMOST say you ninja'd me, but that would take away the sheer power this turn of events has revealed.

For his Side B he uses Geno Whirl

Does Geno Whirl do 1000 % damage?

Well if you want an actual new topic...

How about Agumon? Do you think a Digimon has a place in Smash?

Maybe it does? I could see Agumon working, although I'd have no goddamn clue how he'd work. Still, he'd likely be really quirky.

As long as he doesn't pancake all over the place and have the stupidest Dash Attack in the game (Yes I hate Pikachu's Dash Attack with a fiery passion).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well if you want an actual new topic...

How about Agumon? Do you think a Digimon has a place in Smash?

Sure. Tamagotchis are video games as LCD games clearly count so Aguman can apply to the one rule we know for a fact. Though I'd be disappointed as I loved Digimon Rumble Arena as a kid so Agumon not being able to digivolve throughout the match would suck and that's the realistic option

 

[JOJONumber691]

Honestly, Byleth was really cool, unlike Roy. Roy is actual trash not gonna lie.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

This newcomer speculation thread managed to turn into a full-blown modern Pokemon quality debate thread today.

Newcomer speculation has truly died during the wait for CP7.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if you liked Byleth but were still restraining yourself from discussing him nine months later after his reveal? He wasn't your favorite character, but you like the FE series and would enjoy discussing his playstyle. You never initiate a conversation though because you've seen how it plays out several times before. A majority of people focus entirely on the negatives and almost instinctively switch what should be a normal discussion into one about ethics, an unwillingness to listen to fans, and unwanted shill promotion.

Byleth is not the same as SwSh, but the principle behind trying having a conversation about them is. People have had MONTHS to vent and let out their frustration for both of these things. If we can reach a point where we can have a normal conversation about Byleth without things flying into "I'm still bitter" territory, why can't we do the same with SwSh? We're still unable to talk about Crown Tundra, new Pokémon, or really anything involving SwSh without everything devolving into the 158th rant about all the things wrong with Gen 8.

I mean you can’t really force people to talk about what you want to talk about yeah, but there are people you can talk about this with. There are people out there who think SwSh is the best Pokémon games. People have criticisms about the game. It’s just how it is. People did the same thing with Brawl complaining about how slow and clunky it was. I can’t talk about Skyward Sword without people saying it’s bad. You just gotta take stuff in strides. Complaining about people criticizing the game instead of bringing up good things that the game HAS done isn’t really changing that impression either. Because it’s reinforcing that you don’t want to talk about the flaws and ONLY the good things. There’s room for both but complaining about the opposite side is just emphasizing that side.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Yeah. Then Steve gets announced lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, Byleth was really cool, unlike Roy. Roy is actual trash not gonna lie.

How dare you insult our boy with such blasphemy.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Geno talk huh?

well

at least it’s not Goku talk

...oh no

I jinxed it frickkkkkkkkk

 

[Wunderwaft]

Does Geno Whirl do 1000 % damage?

Only if you press B again once the move connects with the tiny ass sweet spot.

 

[Teeb147]

Geno talk huh?

well

at least it’s not Goku talk

...oh no

I jinxed it frickkkkkkkkk

Sure ok. Dragon Ball Z fighters is alright. maybe nintendo will lift their video game origin thing and we'll get goku.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Geno talk huh?

well

at least it’s not Goku talk

...oh no

I jinxed it frickkkkkkkkk

Let him in

 

[SharkLord]

I dunno why (must've been my mind drifting hardcore), but that reminded me of the time a discussion about Pac Man's pellets (his side B) derailed into the time someone OD'd on Flintstone Gummies as a kid:

I never realized how much I needed commentators dying in the background of a competitive Smash match over Flintstone vitamin gummies until now.

This newcomer speculation thread managed to turn into a full-blown modern Pokemon quality debate thread today.

Newcomer speculation has truly died during the wait for CP7.

 

[Perkilator]

Can we go back to talking about Geno?

Gee, no!

In all seriousness; yes, let’s talk about something else. With Crown Tundra coming out in less than a month, I figured that CP7 will likely be revealed and/or released before then.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Alright, hear me out:

Among Us costumes for Mii Fighters.

Discuss.

 

[GoodGrief741]

As a consumer I think it's pretty dumb to expect people not to voice their criticism. Can criticism of something you like be annoying? Of course, especially if it's overblown. It's also the only way to get to the big corporations that make the products, and hopefully spur some change. And if you don't agree with the criticisms or the change that they'd cause, then you be vocal too.

"Oh but why are people still complaining years later?" If the complaints haven't been fixed I don't see a reason to stop criticizing.

 

[Hokori]

This newcomer speculation thread managed to turn into a full-blown modern Pokemon quality debate thread today.

Newcomer speculation has truly died during the wait for CP7.

I think everyone is just sick and tired of being sick and tired...of waiting.

So at this point, any discussion seems welcome outside of "So guys...AnNoUcEmEnt ToDay?"

Idk about anyone else, but I hopped off the Next Week train long ago.

I said this weeks ago, but I'm just ready to wake up and see a bunch of new pages in this thread, letting me know that there's probably been some news regarding the upcoming character, and that this waiting period can finally come to an end.

Until next time, that is

 

[Wunderwaft]

Alright, hear me out:

Among Us costumes for Mii Fighters.

Discuss.

Sounds sus
KoP must be the imposter

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Alright, hear me out:

Among Us costumes for Mii Fighters.

Discuss.

"Idk man, player 3's looking pretty sus. He still has 3 stocks."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Alright, hear me out:

Among Us costumes for Mii Fighters.

Discuss.

I think people who use the red costumes are sus.

Ironically enough because of the kill animations, they'd fit all 3 Mii classes. Among Us is surprisingly old but sadly it's newfound fame was likely far too recent

 

[JCKirbs]

And then there's me

Someone who actually wanted 8 FE characters just so we could unironically do 8 man Smash with just FE.

Meanwhile, you can't even do a full, 4-player game with the amount of Kirby characters on the roster so far.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Alright, hear me out:

Among Us costumes for Mii Fighters.

Discuss.

I wonder when Mii costumes are decided. If they are decided at the same time as the fighters (so around setember 2019), then no, since the game was not popular. If they're decided a bit later, then maybe? But honestly I don't see it happening, expect if the game release on Switch later and the final Mii costumes aren't decided yet.

 

[Hokori]

Let him in

View attachment 287294

Nah. Tell him to dye his hair blue or something and maybe I'll reconsider. Only blue-hair anime fighters in my vidya game.