Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Toon Link was in Smash 4.

I mean yeah but he's still coming back by virtue of not being cut.

 

[SKX31]

Then again, if Nintendo wanted Smash to gain ground in China and Korea, as much as it pains me to say, it would probably be a great way of driving discussion in these places.

Now that you mention it, yeah it would be a good way to market the franchise there. Both Chinese and Korean audiences are generally familiar with I'd say half to two thirds of the existing Smash roster, so it's not an outrageous idea to get people talking about not just LoL but also Smash as a franchise.

It might help that both the Chinese and Korean Nintendo (and Smash) communities have been growing as of late.

The series has so much to offer, and so many interesting b-tier characters, so to me sticking to different versions of the main three isn't nearly as exciting or diverse as it could be.

Which is a shame too, since Sakurai and co. added Toon Link to be a more unique Young Link essentially... but wound up not taking that idea further in Smash 4 / Ultimate. They could've added stuff like the Pegasus Boots or the items he gets in, well, loads of Zelda games. Ditto Young Link and MM / Sonic and a lot of his games. I do support a possible Ganon for similar reasons - his moveset can pull from very interesting ideas, and it's a shame to see them not utilized.

Ditto non-Triforce wielders - they could be really interesting just by potential alone. As SMAASH! Puppy pointed out though, that doesn't seem to be on Nintendo's radar.

They've taken a good step with Ganondorf, but honestly it feels as though moveset changes get put in the backburner far too often. I get why - time crunch is a major factor for Sakurai and co. Also, familiar movesets help players get comfortable with the new game's engine first (also, avoids the possible issue of alienation). Besides, several playtesters are competitive players*, and they might (speculating here, but still) favor moves they're familiar with. There's still an argument to be made that more experimentation will not hurt though.

*Ultimate's playtesters include aMSa ( player, famous for singlehandedly improving people's opinions on Yoshi), 9B ( and player, he created one of Brawl Icies' more infamous chaingrabs), Ranai ( player, known for pushing that character to new heights) and Earth ( and player, could threaten the absolute best in Smash 4). None of these are allowed to participate in Ultimate tournaments due to being playtesters.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean yeah but he's still coming back by virtue of not being cut.

It sounded like you said he was coming back after being cut, because Young Link was not present in Brawl and Smash 4.

I see your point though.

 

[Guynamednelson]

There was that post a mod made a while back (just before the Hyrule Warriors AoC announcement) saying a bunch of Japanese stores were returning their Fighter Pass 2 prepaid cards. They’re probably not flying off shelves. I’d be curious as to whether this leads to less sales overall though. Would an exciting announcement fix it? Or have they already lost momentum because people are more likely to buy what they want separately?

I don't think it has to be an exciting announcement. Just...more than one announcement.

Which is a shame too, since Sakurai and co. added Toon Link to be a more unique Young Link essentially... but wound up not taking that idea further in Smash 4 / Ultimate. They could've added stuff like the Pegasus Boots or the items he gets in, well, loads of Zelda games. Ditto Young Link and MM / Sonic and a lot of his games. I do support a possible Ganon for similar reasons - his moveset can pull from very interesting ideas, and it's a shame to see them not utilized.

Toon Link feels like the least distinct of the Brawl clone newcomers, and in Ultimate he feels like the one who's just there, not Young Link. got remixed to match BotW, was remixed to be more combo-centric, while ...uh...different forward smash.

 

[Cosmic77]

Zelda just has a long history of bad timing.

Twilight Princess came out while Brawl was in development, and Sakurai made it clear that just getting Lucario, whose game came out two months before TP, took a lot of hard work and determination from his team. Then we have BotW, and just like TP, it was released right in the middle of development. Sakurai had to play the game early to see how he could incorporate content into Ultimate.

Perhaps in both of these cases, there just wasn't enough time set aside to add a character from either of these games. I suppose Sakurai could've reserved a slot, but Zelda isn't the same as FE or Pokémon. There's no guarantee you'd have a decent character worth adding.

The only instance where development lined up perfectly is with Smash 4 and SS, and honestly, I think it's completely understandable why Sakurai had doubts about adding a character from that game.

 

[CureParfait]

What would your reaction be in the hypothetical scenario where Mipha ended up as the next DLC character?

I would be rather happy about it since it isn't an another Link or Zelda.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I don't think it has to be an exciting announcement. Just...more than one announcement.

Toon Link feels like the least distinct of the Brawl clone newcomers, and in Ultimate he feels like the one who's just there, not Young Link. got remixed to match BotW, was remixed to be more combo-centric, while ...uh...different forward smash.

Yeah, it feels like Toon Link was there just to fill out the "Everyone is here" quota.
It's also why I wasn't too upset about Ganondorf still being a Captain clone this time, since like it or hate it, Falcondorf is a part of Smash history and his current state was considered important enough to keep that mission statement in mind, warts and all.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I will say one thing though: If any character is going to have a shot, I think it's Impa, as she's the only one guaranteed to appear in future games. Problem is, she's usually either an old lady, unimportant, or both, and she never reaches the same popularity outside of Super Smash Bros. as the one-offs.

I think this is due to the fact that characters that do recur adhere to the themes of Hyrule's fate: Link is always the hero, Zelda is always the damsel, Ganon is (nearly) always the aggressor, Beedle is always a shopkeep, and Impa is seems to always be Zelda's mentor of sorts. Since Zelda is often a minor character, this makes Impa a minor character, and she's usually quite old by trade.

With recent trends though, Zelda has become much more involved in The Legend of Zelda's stories, so I can see Impa getting a similar boon. In turn, she'll probably start looking like a much better candidate for Super Smash Bros.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I want to play the Smash from the alternate universe where Skull Kid was in Melee, Zant in Brawl, Ghirahim in Smash 4, and each Ganonblight in one character is in Ultimate along with Skull Kid, Zant, and Ghirahim.

 

[Arcanir]

Honestly, I think its partially due to Ultimate being an older game.

A lot of casual players will only support a game for so long.

Pretty much, the farther you get out from a game's initial release, the harder it is to maintain attention on it without more and more people losing interest and moving on. With Ultimate in particular you also have to consider we've been having large gaps between character reveals, which allows for more people to drop out between them and lose interest.

Yeah, it feels like Toon Link was there just to fill out the "Everyone is here" quota.
It's also why I wasn't too upset about Ganondorf still being a Captain clone this time, since like it or hate it, Falcondorf is a part of Smash history and his current state was considered important enough to keep that mission statement in mind, warts and all.

To be honest, I feel Young Link suffers more from that. While he does get a combo heavy moveset, it comes exclusively from the tweaks that are made to the moves that already existed on him, he doesn't get any other changes. No new moves whereas Link got a number of them and even Toon Link got one, still reuses his OoT voice clips rather then update them, and got no notable updates despite games like MM being present to draw from. He feels more like he was just plucked out of Melee and updated to the Ultimate engine, which compared to characters like Wolf who got a number of move and animation changes on top of those tweaks, feels less notable.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

To be honest, I feel Young Link suffers more from that. While he does get a combo heavy moveset, it comes exclusively from the tweaks that are made to the moves that already existed on him, he doesn't get any other changes. No new moves whereas Link got a number of them and even Toon Link got one, still reuses his OoT voice clips rather then update them, and got no notable updates despite games like MM being present to draw from. He feels more like he was just plucked out of Melee and updated to the Ultimate engine, which compared to characters like Wolf who got a number of move and animation changes on top of those tweaks, feels less notable.

This is true, but he's been gone so long that this is actually what makes him unique imo. Due to his similarities with Toon Link, and the fact that Toon Link's playstyle didn't get tweaked at all like Young Link's did, I personally think Toon Link is the one that ends up being more stale.

 

[SKX31]

I don't think it has to be an exciting announcement. Just...more than one announcement.

Toon Link feels like the least distinct of the Brawl clone newcomers, and in Ultimate he feels like the one who's just there, not Young Link. got remixed to match BotW, was remixed to be more combo-centric, while ...uh...different forward smash.

OTOH, Toon Link had several mechanical changes to him when he was first added in Brawl (although he was probably last minute - he doesn't appear in SSE until the post-credits door). Not that many - again, last minute - but a different Nair, Bair and Up Smash is a start. Floaty arrows are also a distinct change. Not perfect, but pretty good considering the circumstances.

It's Toon Link in 4 and Ultimate I have more issues with, since it feels like wasted opportunities. Currently Toon Link is less of a zoner and more of a pressure and movement based character (due to how his frame data works), although yeah... they could've done more than just different F-Smash.

Yeah, it feels like Toon Link was there just to fill out the "Everyone is here" quota.
It's also why I wasn't too upset about Ganondorf still being a Captain clone this time, since like it or hate it, Falcondorf is a part of Smash history and his current state was considered important enough to keep that mission statement in mind, warts and all.

That's very much true - it's worth noting that according to the official Melee website Ganondorf wasn't even planned for Melee - but his popularity plus, well, his model being similar to Falcon's made it possible. Also, we have an idea of just how little time Sakurai and co had with Ganondorf:

• In the 1.0 version of Melee, if Ganondorf had a Bunny Hood equipped, he would perform a second jab during his neutral attack, an apparent leftover from Captain Falcon's moveset. This second jab had no hitboxes however, and was removed in the subsequent versions of Melee.

And well, here we are. Falcondorf is indeed a part of history (as someone who likes it overall, despite wanting to change him just a bit further) - people such as Bizarro Flame have created distinct playstyles with Ganondorf. Him going over the top and even disrespectful feels fitting for his character IMHO, weirdly enough.

Pretty much, the farther you get out from a game's initial release, the harder it is to maintain attention on it without more and more people losing interest and moving on. With Ultimate in particular you also have to consider we've been having large gaps between character reveals, which allows for more people to drop out between them and lose interest.

As someone who's seen "large gaps between character releases and patches" plague a game (Dota 2) and cause some people to lose interest over time, yeah I agree. Doesn't help that Valve can be as tight-lipped as Nintendo. That said, I don't think it's as bad for Smash since it can easily be played offline, and these recent months have been somewhat of an anomaly.

 

[Guynamednelson]

OTOH, Toon Link had several mechanical changes to him when he was first added in Brawl (although he was probably last minute - he doesn't appear in SSE until the post-credits door). Not that many - again, last minute - but a different Nair, Bair and Up Smash is a start. Floaty arrows are also a distinct change. Not perfect, but pretty good considering the circumstances.

I am aware of that, but he also debuted in the same game as Lucas and Wolf, characters more distinct from Ness and Fox.

 

[Arcanir]

This is true, but he's been gone so long that this is actually what makes him unique imo. Due to his similarities with Toon Link, and the fact that Toon Link's playstyle didn't get tweaked at all like Young Link's did, I personally think Toon Link is the one that ends up being more stale.

That is true, but I'd counter that Pichu was gone as long and still got more out of the transition (whether due to their own changes or adapting Pikachu's from the past few games). Young Link didn't even get that much, he's very much a product of his Melee self and (presentation-wise at least) he probably gained the least out of any returning character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If any character is going to have a shot, I think it's Impa, as she's the only one guaranteed to appear in future games.

Slight correction: There is another notable character that is...well, was recurred quite often, and that's Tingle. There are a few problems with Tingle though. He's a gag character for the most part, but his style of humor is very Japanese, and doesn't really land/can even be downright creepy in America. This has lead to America absolutely hating the character from what I can tell. Top it off with his last major appearance being in The Legend of Zelda: The Minsh Cap, and last major 3D title appearance being in The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker (and from what I gather it's quite an annoying one at that), his fate seems to be uncertain.

Seeing as how they treated Yoshi and Wario though, I wouldn't be surprised if Tingle was classified as a Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland character rather than a The Legend of Zelda character. He'd probably get most of his moveset inspiration from there too since he doesn't do much in any of his appearances. He's mostly just a map maker there.

...Sigh, all this speculating and they're probably going to add a Cucco next or something. lol

That is true, but I'd counter that Pichu was gone as long and still got more out of the transition (whether due to their own changes or adapting Pikachu's from the past few games). Young Link didn't even get that much, he's very much a product of his Melee self and (presentation-wise at least) he probably gained the least out of any returning character.

Near as I can tell, Pichu only got one new move, the ability to crawl, and some electrical properties added to certain attacks. It probably feels more distinct from Pikachu than Young Link does from Toon Link because there aren't three Pikachus, which gives it more room to specialize.

Really, all three Links have huge amounts of missed potential, but in my personal opinion, I think Toon Link got the shortest end of the stick here.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I still can’t get over this image of Young Link...

Ultimate is a beautiful game where it counts with tons of great visuals...but sadly some areas are reeeeeeally bad. The shield looks great but that’s some Mattel-like hair there.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The only instance where development lined up perfectly is with Smash 4 and SS, and honestly, I think it's completely understandable why Sakurai had doubts about adding a character from that game.

Everyone has criticisms of Skyward Sword but characters are the last thing that is the problem. The characterization in Skyward Sword is better than 90% of all other Zelda games.

Like Groose, Demise, Ghirahim, Fi, Eldin, Faron, Lanayru, Impa, Batreaux, the list goes on and on dude. Not only that but it wasn’t for the lack of ideas that a Zelda character wasn’t chosen because we got plenty of items from Skyward Sword in Smash 4. And even besides all that we got Ghirahim as an assist.

Hell Skyward Sword isn’t even a bad game. It’s probably in my Top 3 Wii games ever. It’s just not what people wanted. People, even me, wanted a game as big as Wind Waker or Twilight Princess or bigger but Skyward Sword was a more linear much more puzzle based Zelda game in stark contrast to Breath of the Wild. Not to say that SS doesn’t deserve criticism but it being not what people wanted doesn’t make it bad. It just means, like you said, it was poorly timed.

There’s some sort of weird exception to Zelda and it just kind of sucks. But it’s not because SS was “bad”. It seems like Sakurai is specifically looking for a character that can fit with the Tri-Force Trio that will stay relevant in games going forward and honestly the only one character I can think of is Impa.

or Tingle.

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly, one could make a case for Fi in Smash, seeing as she's literally the spirit of the Master Sword, the most iconic item in the franchise sans the Triforce itself. If we want recurring characters, I'm sure that's enough to count Fi

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The characterization in Skyward Sword is better than 90% of all other Zelda games.

Fi

Didn't people hate Fi?

Honestly, one could make a case for Fi in Smash, seeing as she's literally the spirit of the Master Sword, the most iconic item in the franchise sans the Triforce itself. If we want recurring characters, I'm sure that's enough to count Fi

when you realize Fi has technically been in more The Legend of Zelda games than any other character that isn't Link, Zelda, or Ganon(dorf)

 

[Arcanir]

Near as I can tell, Pichu only got one new move, the ability to crawl, and some electrical properties added to certain attacks. It probably feels more distinct from Pikachu than Young Link does from Toon Link because there aren't three Pikachus, which gives it more room to specialize.

Really, all three Links have huge amounts of missed potential, but in my personal opinion, I think Toon Link got the shortest end of the stick here.

I honestly wish they did more with both Toon Link or Young Link, but I'm more disappointed with the latter. Young Link had a long absence and another clone that could take over the Link moveset and thus could be updated further to differentiate himself from the other two, yet arguably he had the least to show for it presentation-wise. Even his FS, which could've been distinctive, reuses Toon Link's (who in turn reused Link's) with little changes in style and appearance, so in terms of wasted potential I feel he got it the worst.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Didn't people hate Fi?

They hated the “your battery level is low” and “you should take a break” prompts from her that, for whatever reason, Nintendo loved to shove into their games around that period. Not Fi. People really liked Fi. Quite a bit more than Navi at the very least and maybe not quite as much as Midna.

 

[skylanders fan]

To be honest my most wanted Zelda character would have been skull kid with the moon as a final smash but hey we did get both as assist trophies

 

[Rie Sonomura]

W E L P

I have a very important announcement to share today. pic.twitter.com/i4qTdNpYeD

— SUDA51/須田剛一 (@suda_51) September 10, 2020

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

To be entirely honest I don’t HAVE to have a new Zelda character. I would love one but I don’t NEED one. What I really want is for them to differentiate the Link’s completely. I want Toon Link to use more weapons from his games like the hammer, the grapple hook, and to come equipped with the Phantom Sword and I want Young Link to be the Pokémon Trainer of Zelda with Mask Transformations and The Fierce Deity as his Final Smash. Then I’d be satisfied. But if I got my favorite it’d be from my favorite Zelda, Majora’s Mask and that’s Skull Kid. If I had to choose based on the importance to the series it would easily be Impa and I guess that’s where the dilemma lies in the mind of the Smash team as well.

 

[Simplythe1]

W E L P

I have a very important announcement to share today. pic.twitter.com/i4qTdNpYeD

— SUDA51/須田剛一 (@suda_51) September 10, 2020

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

I'm mean I understand.....but still....

 

[Megadoomer]

W E L P

I have a very important announcement to share today. pic.twitter.com/i4qTdNpYeD

— SUDA51/須田剛一 (@suda_51) September 10, 2020

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

I figured this was coming; even in one of the trailers that was already shown, they had Travis saying something like "yeah, right" after the 2020 release date was shown, and that was before the Coronavirus.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

Don't wanna go to Twitter just to read this, but I am correct to assume that No More Heroes III is getting delayed? I don't think this would affect Travis's chances; If he was made playable to coincide with No More Heroes III then he's still getting made playable. The game and the character just wouldn't release at the same time. In fact, if we're looking at this from a promotional standpoint, then Travis's playable status would be a great way to tide people over until the game comes out.

It also helps that since No More Heroes III isn't even out yet, Travis probably wouldn't even be able to be based off of his appearance there, and would likely take most of his stuff from the previous three entries in the series.

 

[cashregister9]

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now

I'm pretty sure This would not effect the chances the characters were already chosen

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'm never going to complain when a company is this upfront and transparent about a delay so best of luck to the developers for the 2021 release.

I'll say this, its damn refreshing when the announcement for postponement is actually forthright.

 

[PeridotGX]

What would your reaction be in the hypothetical scenario where Mipha ended up as the next DLC character?

If I had a nickel for every time an avian character with a bow that I wanted got passed up for a character from the same game with a primarily red color pallet, I'd have two nickels. Not a lot - but it's weird it happened twice.

 

[SharkLord]

W E L P

I have a very important announcement to share today. pic.twitter.com/i4qTdNpYeD

— SUDA51/須田剛一 (@suda_51) September 10, 2020

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

Oof. At least they're honest about it, though.
But yeah, as others have mentioned, this won't affect Travis' chances that much. The fighters are chosen in advance; Delays that only happen now wouldn't be taken into equation.

 

[Gribbo]

W E L P

I have a very important announcement to share today. pic.twitter.com/i4qTdNpYeD

— SUDA51/須田剛一 (@suda_51) September 10, 2020

Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

Sakurai: "Well, it's been months and months of hard work, money spent, and balancing issues, but we're just about finished with Travis Touchdown in Smash. We should be able to drop his reveal trailer this Thursda-"
(NMH3 gets delayed)
Sakurai: "SCRAP EVERYTHING"

 

[Rie Sonomura]

pic.twitter.com/MjcxggBEhf

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) September 10, 2020

Screw the giant angry moon, imagine if THIS threatened to crash on Termina

 

[Phoenixio]

They hated the “your battery level is low” and “you should take a break” prompts from her that, for whatever reason, Nintendo loved to shove into their games around that period. Not Fi. People really liked Fi. Quite a bit more than Navi at the very least and maybe not quite as much as Midna.

Fi is the absolute worst companion Link has ever had. She was so damn annoying, acting like a computer and all. I much prefer Navi that had actual character and provided useful insight (despite the iconic yet slightly annoying Hey! Listen!, but at least fairies have been omnipresent in almost all Zelda content). Midna was alright, tons of character development for sure, but she was only in one game.

 

[StrangeKitten]

A NMHIII spirit event would be a blow to Travis' chances since it'd soft-deconfirm him. NMHIII getting delayed just means his Smash reveal might not line up as well with the release of NMHIII as it may have otherwise, but doesn't lessen his chances since we know the characters have already been decided.

Regardless, I'm glad they went with the decision to delay the game. It's better than putting any of the devs at risk. I'd rather wait for a game knowing everyone was able to develop it safely because of that wait

 

[Michael the Spikester]

W E L P
Travis’s chances most likely dropped significantly now... but also, condolences to the fans who wanted to play this as soon as possible

This doesn't affect his chances assuming he was among the six chosen. The second Pass was planned since E3 2019.

 

[SharkLord]

Out of curiosity, where did the "FP2 started at E3 2019" thing come from? Was it said by a leaker, or is it just speculation, or what?

 

[MooMew64]

NMH3 being delayed doesn't do anything to Travis' chances IMO. These fighters are selected and negotiated way ahead of time: If he's in the pass, he's gonna come out when he's ready, regardless of NMH3's release date.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

NMH3 being delayed doesn't do anything to Travis' chances IMO. These fighters are selected and negotiated way ahead of time: If he's in the pass, he's gonna come out when he's ready, regardless of NMH3's release date.

The great truth no one wants to acknowledge.
I mean I'm not complaining, but even though Hyrule Warriors' announcement has done jack and squat in terms of raising the chances of a Zelda character making it in the pass, if it generates discussion for it over the Nth Pokemon/Geno/Fire Emblem discussion I say delude away.

 

[ZelDan]

honestly, I would have been surprised if NHMIII DID come out in 2020. The news of its delay isn't surprising to me in the slightest.

And yeah this doesn't really affect Travis' chances. FP2 was decided a while ago already and I don't think they could just remove a character this far in.