Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Hydreigonfan01]

Joker's TGA teaser was shown as E10+ and clearly ended with "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate X Persona 5". I'm sure some kind of legalese or something is behind the omission of the Assassin's Creed and Fallout logos, but the rating isn't it.

The video explains that everything changed around Byleth's announcement. It was fine even in Terry's but the rules of the ESRB has changed.

Personally the only thing about the theory is that it doesn't mean anything, most people already expected an M rated rep in FP2 because we've had multiple characters who have appeared in M rated games before since Snake joined Brawl, which were Bayonetta, Simon/Richter (A Castlevania game was rated M) and Joker. Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, Demi-fiend/SMT rep, Travis, Master Chief, Doomguy, Phoenix Wright and 2B have all been talked about.

I guess one thing they could do with Dante at least is just have it be Super Smash Bros Ultimate: Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series with the sticker and everything.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, I actually think this is an incredibly solid theory, even if all it tells us is we're getting an M rated character. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see how specifically M rated game logos have been treated since Altaïr and then make the connection to the ESRB.

It just goes to show that this thread kinda throws a hissy fit whenever a new theory is proposed no matter how valid it may be. "Shut up and don't theorize! I only wish to consume product the way Nintendo intended it!"

Thing is, we don't need this theory to speculate if a character from an M-rated game will get in. We never did. What's the point?

 

[Opossum]

Most, if not all pf ths dismissal I've seen here is about how this changes literally nothing as we've frequently seen discussion on M rated characters, with Travis, 2B, Master Chief and Dante having been rather popular choices in this thread, this theory changes nothing

Something doesn't have to be a total game changer to drive discussion. Anything to break the monotony of Poképessimism should be accepted with open arms.

 

[Schnee117]

I guess it's a good thing Bayonetta got in during Smash 4 considering her series is named after her. Would be amusingly awkward to see how Nintendo would try and get around that.

 

[osby]

I guess it's a good thing Bayonetta got in during Smash 4 considering her series is named after her. Would be amusingly awkward to see how Nintendo would try and get around that.

Super Smash Bros x Cereza

 

[SKX31]

I guess it's a good thing Bayonetta got in during Smash 4 considering her series is named after her. Would be amusingly awkward to see how Nintendo would try and get around that.

"The Umbran Witch joins the battle!"

"Human Umbreon is OP, her Witch Time is as balanced as my diet."

Something doesn't have to be a total game changer to drive discussion. Anything to break the monotony of Poképessimism should be accepted with open arms.

I wasn't sure about the M Theory myself (then again, I did misjudge it back on Discord and didn't catch that it was referring to the NA trailers / ESRB specifically), but hey, there's a lot of M-rated characters that aren't talked about much. So there's a positive.

 

[Garteam]

Of all the major M-Rated candidates, this is how I would personally rank them in terms of likeliness:

1. Ryu Hayabusa
2. Travis Touchdown
3. Master Chief
4. Dante
5. 2B

Ryu just has a ton going for him in general. He's an NES icon whose parent company has been very friendly with Nintendo since the early Wii U days and has technically already down work on Smash through Byleth's trailer and the Yuri Kozutaka assist trophy. He could also be like Terry, doing double duty both for his series and company through his frequent crossovers with DoA (and, to a lesser extent, Dynasty Warriors). His only downside is his home series' lack of recent activity, but that didn't stop Mega Man, Simon, or Banjo and Kazooie.

Travis is pretty similar to Ryu overall, just with the advantage of actually having a recent game on the horizon and the disadvantage of not having the legacy or ability to be a general company rep like with Ryu. While Ryu edges him out very slightly, he's still a close second.

Master Chief is absolutely massive and Microsoft is currently very buddy with Nintendo. However, that size may ultimately be detriment if the budget for licensing is decreased relative to the last pass. Likewise, we only got one extremely big third party last pass, so he may have to compete with other juggernauts like Crash to get in.

I'll be completely honest, I never thought Dante was that likely to begin with. He's Capcom's next biggest character, but Capcom has never prioritized size in who gets what in Smash. They started with their fourth biggest series getting a character, followed by a DLC character for their third biggest franchise, a boss for their second biggest, and nothing more than a spirit event for their biggest. Likewise, his popularity for Smash (while there throughout the Fighter's Pass( only really became noticeable after he was "leaked" in January, too late to make an impact on FP2. Plus Itsuno's comments about Dante needing to be a Nintendo system read more to me as a necessary condition, rather than a sufficient one. It's not that he's guaranteed by being on the Switch, he's just more likely.

I'm very, very hesitant on 2B for one reason alone: Sakurai first met Yoko Taro in December, after FP2 would have been finalized. As we've seen through Yuji Hori's involvement with Hero, Greg Mays' involvement with Banjo, and Yabuki's involvement with Min Min, Sakurai takes a lot of effort to give a series' original creator some role in the initial negotiations for the character. As such, while 2B is technically still possible if you assume that she was negotiated and included without Taro's approval, it requires a big jump in the pattern of Smash's development that I personally find hard to swallow.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Im stll confused about the Layton twitter said about not playing their ace in the hold until nessesary and then went silent

 

[osby]

"We'll get a character from an M-rated game."
"Well, duh."

Speculation has come so far.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

"We'll get a character from an M-rated game."
"Well, duh."

Speculation has come so far.

I feel like doing the "We know" meme from this.

 

[Megadoomer]

"We'll get a character from an M-rated game."
"Well, duh."

Speculation has come so far.

I'm glad to see that people are so willing to accept this, given that characters like Snake and Bayonetta were dismissed during the Smash 4 speculation because their games were M-rated, so they "wouldn't fit".

 

[SNEKeater]

Nah, screw all your choices. I want builder Ike now. We don't have a jackhammer-wielding character in Smash yet.

You're not alone. I also want Builder Ike. Give it to me as an alt for Ike, Sakurai.

 

[MooMew64]

I'm already kind of expecting Dante so while this theory is interesting, it doesn't really change much for me personally lol.

That said...Kiryu, please? He's M.

 

[osby]

That said...Kiryu, please? He's M.

Does that mean Majima is an S?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Cue the next Nintendo Direct where an M Rating appears at the beginning of it... only for Conker to pop in, saw it in half with a chainsaw. and put the Smash logo in its place.

Conker: Ah that's more like it. wink

 

[MooMew64]

Does that mean Majima is an S?

You know it.

Mad Dog for Smash, let's get it.

 

[RileyXY1]

Something doesn't have to be a total game changer to drive discussion. Anything to break the monotony of Poképessimism should be accepted with open arms.

Especially Min Min, who killed the rule that Spirits can't be playable.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

What's the deal with Kiryu? Like I know a lot of people here like the Yakuza series but do people think he has a decent shot of being in Smash Bros? The series is themed around the Yakuza which is a real life Japanese criminal organisation. Would that stop him getting in? Could they easily remove any references to the Yakuza if it is a problem?

I'm not opposed to Kiryu joining Smash, Just curious to see where the series stands in regards to Smash Bros.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

My problem with M-theory is that there isn't any way that it actually means what people think it means. It's interesting as it gives us a better look at ESRB, but it shouldn't really affect anything regarding characters for the following reasons:

1) The people making the North American versions of directs/presentations aren't on the Smash team.
2) People outside the Smash team and a few select executives don't know who all the characters are.

It's very likely the people editing the presentations are just doing theoretical future-proofing. They don't know who all the characters are. So are they supposed to just start adding logos in with the chance of having to remove them again? That would look kind of silly, so I think they're taking the approach that an M-rated game is possible (not guaranteed) and removing the logos so they don't have to worry about it down the line.

What I think is interesting is how the presentations will be handled if we do get an M-rated character. I don't think they can just purge every mention of the game/series like they can with mii costumes. It seems likely that we'd get a presentation rated E 10+ to M, which would be a partial giveaway at the beginning of the presentation, assuming the reveal hasn't happened already.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

The only 2 real horses I have in this M race are Hayabusa and Master Chief

I feel like Hayabusa's pretty likely, while Master Chief is uh... Yeah I ain't holding my breath.

As for likely M characters in general, I think both Dante and Travis got a decent shot. I could also see 2B and someone from SMT as potential dark horse picks.

 

[Opossum]

Especially Min Min, who killed the rule that Spirits can't be playable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

[Souless_shadow]

Oh hey we're back! I felt completely cut off from any smash/nintendo news since I wasn't able to lurk here

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Does Phoenix Wright count as rated M? He was in an M game

 

[zriL]

I'll be completely honest, I never thought Dante was that likely to begin with. He's Capcom's next biggest character, but Capcom has never prioritized size in who gets what in Smash. They started with their fourth biggest series getting a character, followed by a DLC character for their third biggest franchise, a boss for their second biggest, and nothing more than a spirit event for their biggest. Likewise, his popularity for Smash (while there throughout the Fighter's Pass( only really became noticeable after he was "leaked" in January, too late to make an impact on FP2. Plus Itsuno's comments about Dante needing to be a Nintendo system read more to me as a necessary condition, rather than a sufficient one. It's not that he's guaranteed by being on the Switch, he's just more likely.

Your ranking of capcom series seems strange, can you provide details ? I don't even know what's your "biggest" capcom franchise from what you said.
I believe Dante is much more likely than you think, especially when you compare him to Travis. I can't see why Travis would be more likely when Dante is basically stronger than him in every aspect (sales, legacy, popularity, moveset, etc). That's why Travis has virtually zero chance in my opinion, because Dante would get in first anyways.

edit : ok it's Resident Evil, but your ranking still seem quite arbitrary and it's very easy to justify RE and MU not being in the game as fighters. Especially for MU since they said themselves they don't want a playable character.

 

[Bee Card]

Don't forget Travis Touchdown from a M-rated game.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Don't forget Travis Touchdown from a M-rated game.

I don't think anyone has forgotten about Travis, he seems like a pretty likely candidate for an M rated rep.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Happy 20th Anniversary to Paper Mario N64!

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Spoiler

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[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ugh. Now the quote text is on a separate line from the quote signifiers. Now I'm gonna have to fix it every time or it's gonna bother me. I'm sure it's supposed to make things more readable but that's not going to stop my brain from hating it. lol

I'll be completely honest, I never thought Dante was that likely to begin with. He's Capcom's next biggest character, but Capcom has never prioritized size in who gets what in Smash. They started with their fourth biggest series getting a character, followed by a DLC character for their third biggest franchise, a boss for their second biggest, and nothing more than a spirit event for their biggest. Likewise, his popularity for Smash (while there throughout the Fighter's Pass( only really became noticeable after he was "leaked" in January, too late to make an impact on FP2. Plus Itsuno's comments about Dante needing to be a Nintendo system read more to me as a necessary condition, rather than a sufficient one. It's not that he's guaranteed by being on the Switch, he's just more likely.

I'm not sure any of this makes him unlikely though. Mega Man and Street Fighter might not be their most highly selling franchises right now, but they are two of their most widely known, and I believe they're second and third only to Resident Evil because of all of those really popular action flicks. Even if they're not, it's not like their willingness to allow whatever with their properties is a barrier to entry. So really it just depends on whether or not Nintendo would want Dante in, and I don't think there's really any indication as to why they wouldn't.

As for Itsuno's comment, it should probably be discarded at this point. Even if he was laying down ground rules (though it seemed more like a simple deflection to me) the requirements he had in place were likely already in the works so it wouldn't have even meant anything.

I don't think anyone has forgotten about Travis, he seems like a pretty likely candidate for an M rated rep.

May I ask why? The only reason I remember being brought forth is the fact that Sakurai knows the devs, which doesn't make him more likely in the slightest since it's not Sakurai who's being chosen. There's also the fact that the series is quite small and other series of No More Heroes's caliber tend to get much less content if anything at all.

It seems like the series is in the same position as the Bayonetta series, but without the support of the Smash Ballot behind it, which was the main reason why Bayonetta got in Super Smash Bros. in the first place so...

 

[zeldasmash]

The video explains that everything changed around Byleth's announcement. It was fine even in Terry's but the rules of the ESRB has changed.

Personally the only thing about the theory is that it doesn't mean anything, most people already expected an M rated rep in FP2 because we've had multiple characters who have appeared in M rated games before since Snake joined Brawl, which were Bayonetta, Simon/Richter (A Castlevania game was rated M) and Joker. Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, Demi-fiend/SMT rep, Travis, Master Chief, Doomguy, Phoenix Wright and 2B have all been talked about.

I guess one thing they could do with Dante at least is just have it be Super Smash Bros Ultimate: Featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series with the sticker and everything.

Final Fantasy also had an M rated game with Final Fantasy Type-0. When it comes to Castlevania, Simon appeared in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate which was M rated, though 3D Castlevania as a whole is a more M rated series. Ace Attorney had Dual Destinies while the others mentioned have almost always been rated M (though Halo and Shin Megami Tensei have had rated T games with Halo 5 and I think the Devil Survivor games were rated T as well).

 

[cashregister9]

I think when it comes to determining whether or not a series is M depends on the logo they use to represent the whole franchise. They used the First Fatal Fury logo to represent Terry, DQIXSEOAEA to represent Hero etc. Phoenix Wright would use the original Ace Attorney logo and that game is rated T.

 

[Perkilator]

I like how certain fighters (Ultimate’s newcomers especially) have a gimmick that’s made them stand out from the rest (for better or worse).

: 3-in-1 fighter
: Consumable resources
: Attack power based on damage %age
: The ability to store an item
: Power charge for a one-hit K.O.
: Consumable moveset
:Buff/debuff switching on the fly
: Traditional fighting game inputs
: A gauge for stringer special moves
: Consumable resource that can be refilled by pressing Shield and B
: Guard ability that ties into special move gauge that depletes slowly after filling it
: MP Gauge and Command Selection
: 5-use specials
: Traditional fighting game inputs AND supers at high damage
: Normal punches activated by both the A and B buttons at the cost of a side special

I made a thread for what gimmick you want for your most wanted, so click there. But either way, if you could give your most wanted a gimmick of this nature, what would it be?

 

[SharkLord]

I like how certain fighters (Ultimate’s newcomers especially) have a gimmick that’s made them stand out from the rest (for better or worse).

: 3-in-1 fighter
: Consumable resources
: Attack power based on damage %age
: The ability to store an item
: Power charge for a one-hit K.O.
: Consumable moveset
:Buff/debuff switching on the fly
: Traditional fighting game inputs
: A gauge for stringer special moves
: Consumable resource that can be refilled by pressing Shield and B
: Guard ability that ties into special move gauge that depletes slowly after filling it
: MP Gauge and Command Selection
: 5-use specials
: Traditional fighting game inputs AND supers at high damage
: Normal lunches activated by both the A and B buttons at the cost of a side special

I made a thread for what gimmick you want for your most wanted, so click there. But either way, if you could give your most wanted a gimmick of this nature, what would it be?

Pocket, Wonderwing, and Monado Arts aren't really gimmicks though, just moves with unique properties. I suppose you could make a case for Shulk since that ties into his playstyle a lot, but the other two are still just unique moves. On the other hand, you missed K. Rool and his belly armor.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I made a thread for what gimmick you want for your most wanted, so click there. But either way, if you could give your most wanted a gimmick of this nature, what would it be?

I always pictured a Bravely rep using a Brave/Default system that would buff/debuff frame data. So if you use Brave, you get better frame data for a time (let's say 5 seconds) and then you would get debuffed for the same amount of time. But if you use Default first and voluntarily take the debuff, maybe with added defense as a bonus, you would forgo the debuff period the next time you use Brave, allowing you better control over the risk and reward of using the system. This could also work with movement speed, but that seems pretty close to what Shulk already does.

 

[PeridotGX]

I like how certain fighters (Ultimate’s newcomers especially) have a gimmick that’s made them stand out from the rest (for better or worse).

: 3-in-1 fighter
: Consumable resources
: Attack power based on damage %age
: The ability to store an item
: Power charge for a one-hit K.O.
: Consumable moveset
:Buff/debuff switching on the fly
: Traditional fighting game inputs (terrible decision)
: A gauge for stringer special moves
: Consumable resource that can be refilled by pressing Shield and B
: Guard ability that ties into special move gauge that depletes slowly after filling it
: MP Gauge and Command Selection
: 5-use specials
: Traditional fighting game inputs (terrible decision) AND supers at high damage
: Normal lunches activated by both the A and B buttons at the cost of a side special

I made a thread for what gimmick you want for your most wanted, so click there. But either way, if you could give your most wanted a gimmick of this nature, what would it be?

Grovyle - I can't really think of anything. Maybe something with the Time Gears, but that doesn't seem fun or interesting

Maxwell - Adjectives. Like the Monday arts, but they can affect either you or the opponent (and last longer)

Bandana Dee - Elemental Imbuing. If Bandana Dee parries/counters/whatevers an attack with an element tied to it, Bandana Dee's spear gets that element, buffing him.

Frisk - Pacifist. You can play Frisk in a completely different way, by dodging attacks and not attacking back, which will eventually SPARE the foe (taking a stock). There's also typical Smash gameplay, labeled Genocide.

Megaman X - I can't really think of anything for him. Maybe the Air Dash?

 

[3BitSaurus]

: Normal lunches activated by both the A and B buttons at the cost of a side special

This might actually be one of the best typos I've seen someone make on Smashboards, second only to that time we rated Jon Kazama from Tekken in the RTC thread.

Please don't fix this.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I like how certain fighters (Ultimate’s newcomers especially) have a gimmick that’s made them stand out from the rest (for better or worse).

: 3-in-1 fighter
: Consumable resources
: Attack power based on damage %age
: The ability to store an item
: Power charge for a one-hit K.O.
: Consumable moveset
:Buff/debuff switching on the fly
: Traditional fighting game inputs
: A gauge for stringer special moves
: Consumable resource that can be refilled by pressing Shield and B
: Guard ability that ties into special move gauge that depletes slowly after filling it
: MP Gauge and Command Selection
: 5-use specials
: Traditional fighting game inputs AND supers at high damage
: Normal lunches activated by both the A and B buttons at the cost of a side special

I made a thread for what gimmick you want for your most wanted, so click there. But either way, if you could give your most wanted a gimmick of this nature, what would it be?

Dante is my most wanted, and I'd like either a Style Switching mechanic or Devil Trigger.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I like how certain fighters (Ultimate’s newcomers especially) have a gimmick that’s made them stand out from the rest (for better or worse).

: 3-in-1 fighter
: Consumable resources
: Attack power based on damage %age
: The ability to store an item
: Power charge for a one-hit K.O.
: Consumable moveset
:Buff/debuff switching on the fly
: Traditional fighting game inputs
: A gauge for stringer special moves
: Consumable resource that can be refilled by pressing Shield and B
: Guard ability that ties into special move gauge that depletes slowly after filling it
: MP Gauge and Command Selection
: 5-use specials
: Traditional fighting game inputs AND supers at high damage
: Normal lunches activated by both the A and B buttons at the cost of a side special

I made a thread for what gimmick you want for your most wanted, so click there. But either way, if you could give your most wanted a gimmick of this nature, what would it be?

Elma: Overdrive. When the bar is full she gets a brief speed and attack power boost for the duration of Wir Fliegen playing over the regular music. It’s usually a few seconds long.
Octoling: same as Inkling’s as they’re a semi clone, EXCEPT it both depletes faster AND refills faster. Payoff is that some attacks are more powerful
Neku: ...uhhh crap I actually cant think of one rip

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I always pictured a Bravely rep using a Brave/Default system that would buff/debuff frame data. So if you use Brave, you get better frame data for a time (let's say 5 seconds) and then you would get debuffed for the same amount of time. But if you use Default first and voluntarily take the debuff, maybe with added defense as a bonus, you would forgo the debuff period the next time you use Brave, allowing you better control over the risk and reward of using the system. This could also work with movement speed, but that seems pretty close to what Shulk already does.

Another interesting way to implement it would be to have Brave cancel attacks for a combo. For example, you could Neutral Attack, then Brave to immediately do a Forward Tilt (Braving would happen automatically when you input another attack during the character's end lag or something). Defaulting could be a counter or something that gives you a Brave point in exchange for not moving for a bit.

To be honest though, I think your idea is much more synergistic. Braving increases speed and/or frame data, which allows for more combos, but Braving without any Brave points slows you down for a bit to balance things out. If you don't like this, then you can Default, which does slow you down, but it also gives you a defense boost while you Default and a Brave point when the Default state is over. Braves would be able to stack for more speed, but so does the debuff when Braving is over unless you had the points to spend on them.

EDIT: I don't think there's much overlap between this and the Monado Arts since the Monado Arts are more about managing your attributes, and Braving and Defaulting is more about a tug of war with speed, which is arguably the most important stat in the game. I think it would be a pretty deep mechanic, probably even better than Monado Arts.

Elma: Overdrive. When the bar is full she gets a brief speed and attack power boost for the duration of Wir Fliegen playing over the regular music. It’s usually a few seconds long, but if you're good enough, you can keep it going infinitely in order to both annoy your friends and never hear any of the other songs in the game.

Fixed.

 

[Perkilator]

This might actually be one of the best typos I've seen someone make on Smashboards, second only to that time we rated Jon Kazama from Tekken in the RTC thread.

Please don't fix this.

Too late, already did. I know she makes lunches but still

 

[ShrimpScampi]

Neku: ...uhhh crap I actually cant think of one rip

This would be so situational but imagine if they implemented the light puck mechanic when Neku has a teammate

he’d be the ultimate doubles character