Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Rie Sonomura]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

For sure. Expecting someone like Jill or Nakoruru, hoping for KOS-MOS and/or Elma.

 

[tenworldsguy]

Also being considered isn’t some badge of honor, Sakurai has talked about many characters who were momentarily considered and quickly dismissed, it doesn’t always mean they have a great chance of appearing in the future.

If all considered characters were inevitably added to smash, then we should have gotten Toad, Dixie Kong, Blastoise, etc, years ago. But as you all may see, none have been added (much to the dismay of their fans). I believe personally that Heihechi will fall into this category as well inevitably, but the last time I said we weren't getting X character we got both I said weren't coming, so take my take with a grain of salt.

Edit: Said "any" instead of "all" by mistake, my b

 

[Deleted member]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

The only 2 viable candidates that have a possible chance of being in the Fighter Pass in my eyes happen to have other protagonists in their respective franchises that could potentially be in Smash before them (Jill from Resident Evil and Velvet Crowe from Tales). While it is possible that 1 of them or even both of them could end up being in Smash, I'm not counting on there being a female character in the DLC.

 

[Ornl]

this sentence makes no sense and has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

To clarify, when I talked about overlap, I meant gameplay overlap. Ryu and Heihachi play nothing alike and just because they're both from fighting games doesn't mean that Heihachi doesn't have 'something only he can do'. I don't know why you replied with a random statement about PSASBR when we were talking about gameplay, but I guess those are the leaps of logic required to make the arguments you're making.

Ryu/Heihachi have several similarities in their "Smash" gameplay.
And Heihachi actually has fewer personal characteristics.
Ryu trailer / Heihachi trailer.

 

[3BitSaurus]

So, uh... here's something I just found: remember the trailer that showed Hero as a "July" release? The trailer that had its name changed to "Summer" later?

Well, here's this:

It was posted about an hour ago. As we can see, it has the other two "Summer" releases that were missing: Wolfenstein and Astral Chain.

But the question remains: why two separate trailers?

EDIT: Yes, I know these are supposed to be short "ad-type" videos, and it would be hard to just shove everything together, but still... one is clearly half the size of the other. And these two are releasing farther away from the ones in the first video.

 

[Nquoid]

If any considered characters were inevitably added to smash, then we should have gotten Toad, Dixie Kong, Blastoise, etc, years ago. But as you all may see, none have been added (much to the dismay of their fans). I believe personally that Heihechi will fall into this category as well inevitably, but the last time I said we weren't getting X character we got both I said weren't coming, so take my take with a grain of salt.

Apart from Marth, Mewtwo, Bowser, King Dedede, Snake, Sonic, Lucas, Wario, Villager, Ridley, Mii Fighters and Chrom

Plenty of characters have been planned or considered and made it into future entries.

It's really hard to say which characters will fall into which camp, but considering Heihachi is one of the few third party characters we've seen mentioned, I think hes very much fair game for this speculation season

 

[Gran-Rojo]

RE1 STARS Jill would be such a cool character addition. If they add a RE character I hope it's her.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Heihachi still has that issue with his gameplay. It's more complicated compared to someone like Ridley where size is just the issue. Heihachi is more difficult to faithfully add to Smash due to adding his 3d Gameplay to a 2D game like Smash.

Well next week should IMO be the week Hero should release.

-No new Nintendo Games or other updates.
-Dragon Quest XI's anniversary is July 29th which SE probably wanted to aim for, to give the OK for Nintendo.
-Dragon Quest has a Summer festival happening on August 3rd.

https://gematsu.com/2019/07/dragon-...dragon-quest-summer-festival-2019-on-august-3

 

[GoodGrief741]

Ryu/Heihachi have several similarities in their "Smash" gameplay.

What the **** is their "Smash" gameplay?? Heihachi isn't in Smash.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

What the **** is their "Smash" gameplay?? Heihachi isn't in Smash.

By “Smash” for Heihachi I imagine he means his PSASBR gameplay

 

[Sari]

Saying that Heihachi can't get in because of Ryu is like saying DQ Hero can't get in because Cloud is a JRPG sword fighter who uses MP in his game.

Yeah Ryu and Heihachi both use martial arts. Ya know, something that's kind of a big theme in a fighting game. Even with that they both play very differently to the point where Heihachi would be much more than just a simple Ryu clone.

I've never even touched a Tekken game and I can already say that based on this Heihachi would play much more differently than Ryu. For starters he doesn't even have a projectile and is much more close-combat/air combo oriented.

And LOL at anyone who uses Heihachi's appearance in a last gen Smash clone as points against him. I guess this means Snake couldn't be in Brawl since he was in a Smash clone of his own.

EDIT: Off topic but I'm planning to do an analysis on Heihachi's chances in the coming days. Stay tuned.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Apart from Marth, Mewtwo, Bowser, King Dedede, Snake, Sonic, Lucas, Wario, Villager, Ridley, Mii Fighters and Chrom

Plenty of characters have been planned or considered and made it into future entries.

It's really hard to say which characters will fall into which camp, but considering Heihachi is one of the few third party characters we've seen mentioned, I think hes very much fair game for this speculation season

This doesn’t necessarily indicate he was or wasn’t chosen but I do find it kind of weird how open Sakurai is about his consideration and dismissal of Heihachi in Smash 4, when we did not learn of Snake or Sonic’s considerations in Melee until after they were revealed for Brawl, likewise with Pac-Man being considered for Brawl.

 

[GoodGrief741]

By “Smash” for Heihachi I imagine he means his PSASBR gameplay

I don't think he means that, Heihachi in PSASBR plays nothing like Ryu in Smash.

 

[Nquoid]

So if Hero does drop early next week because it's the last few days of July, would they be bold enough to announce a character at Evo as well? Keep us 2 characters ahead till the final reveal.

I doubt it, but if fighter 4 was Heihachi, theres no better time than Evo to announce

 

[3BitSaurus]

Saying that Heihachi can't get in because of Ryu is like saying DQ Hero can't get in because Cloud is a JRPG sword fighter who uses MP in his game.

Yeah Ryu and Heihachi both use martial arts. Ya know, something that's kind of a big theme in a fighting game. Even with that they both play very differently to the point where Heihachi would be much more than just a simple Ryu clone.

I've never even touched a Tekken game and I can already say that based on this Heihachi would play much more differently than Ryu. For starters he doesn't even have a projectile and is much more close-combat combo oriented.

And LOL at anyone who uses Heihachi's appearance in a last gen Smash clone as points against him. I guess this means Snake couldn't be in Brawl since he was in a Smash clone of his own.

EDIT: Off topic but I'm planning to do an analysis on Heihachi's chances in the coming days. Stay tuned.

Just as one final note in all of this: Simon was in that same Smash clone as Snake - along with Bomberman. Shovel Knight was also playable in both Rivals of Aether and Brawlhalla before being an AT in Smash. Franchise overlap isn't an issue.

Sari , you got me curious now. An analysis, as an RTC of sorts or a more detailed analysis? Like, gameplay aspects, what content would he bring with him and such?

 

[Deleted member]

The Ryu/Heihachi debate is silly, but there is no doubt that Ryu or Ken would be used as a base for Heihachi considering both of them come from fighting games with a lot of inputs and have similar body structures. It'd probably take less time for them to do that than develop him from the ground up.

 

[Ornl]

I don't think he means that, Heihachi in PSASBR plays nothing like Ryu in Smash.

It's your perception. Ryu trailer / Heihachi trailer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This doesn’t necessarily indicate he was or wasn’t chosen but I do find it kind of weird how open Sakurai is about his consideration and dismissal of Heihachi in Smash 4, when we did not learn of Snake or Sonic’s considerations in Melee until after they were revealed for Brawl, likewise with Pac-Man being considered for Brawl.

Best I can think of is that with DLC existing, he wanted to note earlier why Heihachi wasn't a choice. Also, didn't he tell us around when he got a Mii costume? It could be an explanation mainly for that costume(or at least timing it so it also coincidentally shows why he got a costume?).

 

[Sari]

Just as one final note in all of this: Simon was in that same Smash clone as Snake - along with Bomberman. Shovel Knight was also playable in both Rivals of Aether and Brawlhalla before being an AT in Smash. Franchise overlap isn't an issue.

Sari , you got me curious now. An analysis, as an RTC of sorts or a more detailed analysis? Like, gameplay aspects, what content would he bring with him and such?

Pretty much just an RTC type of analysis like the one I did for an SNK rep many months ago. The Heihachi analysis will be nowhere near as long as that SNK one though (it'll essentially be as big as the "arguments for an SNK rep" section).

 

[Icedragonadam]

Well I just checked the Nintendo maintenance pages, there's a lot that of them will happen on the 29th. While maintanences are nothing new on Mondays, was there this much of it usually?

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Best I can think of is that with DLC existing, he wanted to note earlier why Heihachi wasn't a choice. Also, didn't he tell us around when he got a Mii costume? It could be an explanation mainly for that costume(or at least timing it so it also coincidentally shows why he got a costume?).

Pretty sure he mentioned Heihachi around the announcement of Pac-Man

 

[KillerCage]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

I don't want sound mean here, but do we really NEED more female characters? Smash 4 gave us Rosalina, Palutena, Lucina, and Bayonetta and that's not including Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Robin, and Corrin who all have female forms. Ultimate gave us Inkling Girl, Daisy, Dark Samus, and Isabelle and that's not including Pokemon Trainer who now has a female alt. Adding in Samus, Peach, Zelda, Sheik (Zelda in disguise), and Zero Suit Samus gives us a total of 21 female fighters. That's roughly a quarter of Ultimate's roster if we are including echo fighters. I am fine with more female characters, but I don't think we NEED more.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Well I just checked the Nintendo maintenance pages, there's a lot that of them will happen on the 29th. While maintanences are nothing new on Mondays, was there this much of it usually?

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp

I think joker had a lot of maintenances when he dropped, which explains why many, myself included, had trouble downloading the update required to even GET him

 

[Flyboy]

I don't want sound mean here, but do we really NEED more female characters? Smash 4 gave us Rosalina, Palutena, Lucina, and Bayonetta and that's not including Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Robin, and Corrin who all have female forms. Ultimate gave us Inkling Girl, Daisy, Dark Samus, and Isabelle and that's not including Pokemon Trainer who now has a female alt. Adding in Samus, Peach, Zelda, Sheik (Zelda in disguise), and Zero Suit Samus gives us a total of 21 female fighters. That's roughly a quarter of Ultimate's roster if we are including echo fighters. I am fine with more female characters, but I don't think we NEED more.

I think more would be cool, but that's because it's kind of annoying we didn't even get Female Erdrick as a skin and a lot of my most-wanted characters that aren't Phoenix Wright (who still has a huge female fanbase) are female - 2B, Velvet Crowe, Arle Nadja, Style Savvy Rep, Elma, KOS-MOS, etc. Even characters who aren't necessarily in my most-wanted like Jill Valentine and Ameratasu would be nice.

Again, it's all about variety to me. Variety in appearances, variety in characterization, variety in series and company representation, and so on.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

Maybe? From my perspective, if Jill Valentine doesn't happen, we probably aren't getting another female character.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I don't want sound mean here, but do we really NEED more female characters? Smash 4 gave us Rosalina, Palutena, Lucina, and Bayonetta and that's not including Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Robin, and Corrin who all have female forms. Ultimate gave us Inkling Girl, Daisy, Dark Samus, and Isabelle and that's not including Pokemon Trainer who now has a female alt. Adding in Samus, Peach, Zelda, Sheik (Zelda in disguise), and Zero Suit Samus gives us a total of 21 female fighters. That's roughly a quarter of Ultimate's roster if we are including echo fighters. I am fine with more female characters, but I don't think we NEED more.

I mean, do we really NEED any character? I get the demand for another female representative but there's not going to be a character specifically chosen for that reason and, unless it's Jill or Lara, it's unlikely to happen in general.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I think more would be cool, but that's because it's kind of annoying we didn't even get Female Erdrick as a skin and a lot of my most-wanted characters that aren't Phoenix Wright (who still has a huge female fanbase) are female - 2B, Velvet Crowe, Arle Nadja, Style Savvy Rep, Elma, KOS-MOS, etc. Even characters who aren't necessarily in my most-wanted like Jill Valentine and Ameratasu would be nice.

Again, it's all about variety to me. Variety in appearances, variety in characterization, variety in series and company representation, and so on.

The thing with Hero was probably because some (I think Eight and Eleven) don't have female forms, plus that would be two more alts to work on.

2B is my pipe dream. The only problem is that Automata is literally the one game from her franchise that is popular. Otherwise, wishing for anything from that franchise would be a never-ever (shame, because the original Nier was one of the best Action RPGs I've ever played and is grossly underrated).

Arle... maybe next time. Another puzzle character is something I would greatly appreciate and Puyo Puyo is arguably the best franchise to pick it from. I doubt it right now, though, mainly because of Joker's inclusion.

I might campaign for both more proactively next time around, though. For them and Dixie, mainly.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Apparently the sunflowers in that Mother spirit event image are polygonal. They did look kinda 3D tbh but I wasn’t sure myself, but someone else noticed.

I’m not expecting anything, but that would be funny if Lucas and Porky basically traded stages.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Maybe? From my perspective, if Jill Valentine doesn't happen, we probably aren't getting another female character.

Unless we get a niche Charater(Cooking Mama,Nakoruru,Neptune), you might be right since the other well known female characters such as Lara Croft/2B got their chances hurt when Hero took the Square-Enix spot for dlc.

I don't want sound mean here, but do we really NEED more female characters? Smash 4 gave us Rosalina, Palutena, Lucina, and Bayonetta and that's not including Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Robin, and Corrin who all have female forms. Ultimate gave us Inkling Girl, Daisy, Dark Samus, and Isabelle and that's not including Pokemon Trainer who now has a female alt. Adding in Samus, Peach, Zelda, Sheik (Zelda in disguise), and Zero Suit Samus gives us a total of 21 female fighters. That's roughly a quarter of Ultimate's roster if we are including echo fighters. I am fine with more female characters, but I don't think we NEED more.

I'm not asking for more female characters i'm just saying how likely do you think we're going to get a female character.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Unless we get a niche Charater(Cooking Mama,Nakoruru,Neptune), you might be right since the other well known female characters such as Lara Croft/2B got their chances hurt when Hero took the Square-Enix spot for dlc.


I'm not asking for more female characters i'm just saying how likely do you think we're going to get a female character.

i mean who's to say we won't get a THIRD Square Enix character at any point in time? (likely to be in a hypothetical second FP but whatever)

 

[ROBnWatch]

I’m not expecting anything, but that would be funny if Lucas and Porky basically traded stages.

Wouldn’t be upset with that at all. Though I do wonder how they would make the sunflower field into an interesting stage, seeing as how it’s normal appearance would just be a flat walk off. Maybe they have it as a moving stage that follows Ghost Hinawa to the cliffside and then has a few platforms off the side of the cliff, in a similar manner to Suzaku Castle?

 

[Garteam]

I think the reason Femdrick was skipped out on was the fact her and Erdrick's design are too similar. Unlike basically every other male and female alt in the game, Erdrick's male and female designs don't have very distinct clothing and hair from one another. Both wear the exact same outfit and only have slight differences in hairstyle (male's is basically spiked straight up, while her's is spiked more to the side). The main difference between the two is their size (with the female being shorter and slightly more thin than the male) and facial structure (male has the standard Toriyama protagonist face, while female has a face closer to Videl's). Size can't really be properly represented, as all alts are required to have similar proportions to match the hitbox, while the facial similarities between the two would be difficult to tell apart in the heat of battle (especially on a large, spread out stage).

Solo and Sofia don't have this issue though. I'm assuming she was left out simply because it would be weird for only one of the Heroes to have a female alt.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Wouldn’t be upset with that at all. Though I do wonder how they would make the sunflower field into an interesting stage, seeing as how it’s normal appearance would just be a flat walk off. Maybe they have it as a moving stage that follows Ghost Hinawa to the cliffside and then has a few platforms off the side of the cliff, in a similar manner to Suzaku Castle?

That could work; perhaps Tazmily Village would also be part of the stage, if it’s not already Tazmily (assuming this stuff is happening); it’s just interesting how all of the images are from Smash, including the images of the Mother games since the recolored zombie is only in Magicant’s rift and the other locations show up in it as well, and the only new things are the sunflowers which don’t appear anywhere currently. Tortimer Island has flowers, but not these, and someone checked to make sure. It was also pointed out in the Porky thread that they could be using Tortimer Island’s skybox as a placeholder during development. Hoping this leads to something and it wasn’t added just for the image, but I won’t expect it...

 

[ROBnWatch]

That could work; perhaps Tazmily Village would also be part of the stage, if it’s not already Tazmily (assuming this stuff is happening); it’s just interesting how all of the images are from Smash, including the images of the Mother games since the recolored zombie is only in Magicant’s rift and the other locations show up in it as well, and the only new things are the sunflowers which don’t appear anywhere currently. Tortimer Island has flowers, but not these, and someone checked to make sure. It was also pointed out in the Porky thread that they could be using Tortimer Island’s skybox as a placeholder during development. Hoping this leads to something and it wasn’t added just for the image, but I won’t expect it...

Including parts of Tazmily Village would be nice. Just don’t make it bad like Pac-Land.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, do we really NEED any character? I get the demand for another female representative but there's not going to be a character specifically chosen for that reason and, unless it's Jill or Lara, it's unlikely to happen in general.

Pretty much. The closest we had was Zero Suit Samus to fill a "Metroid niche" but that was it. And it wasn't for the sake of a female, but for the sake of giving Metroid another workable character. The timing worked well too, since it gave Samus a very defined alternate form to use. Ridley wasn't even considered during Brawl, directly mentioned by Sakurai in a short interview. He might've never even considered the idea of a villain from the franchise at that point. Though I do wish we got more neat costumes for regular Samus even then.

Pretty sure he mentioned Heihachi around the announcement of Pac-Man

Then it was probably just "hey, I considered him. Why not say something since Namco stuff exists." It's one of two good times to mention it, since the most relevant is while Namco stuff just got announced or during the costume DLC announcement.

 

[Wyoming]

The background of the spirit event is Tortimer Island, isn't it? Do not read much to it, they wouldn't hint at a DLC character that way.

 

[yeet123]

The background of the spirit event is Tortimer Island, isn't it? Do not read much to it, they wouldn't hint at a DLC character that way.

Give me Tortimer as a Bowser echo

 

[TheCJBrine]

The background of the spirit event is Tortimer Island, isn't it? Do not read much to it, they wouldn't hint at a DLC character that way.

I talked about why the sky may be Tortimer Island’s assuming they didn’t slap new flowers on the stage just for the image.

I wouldn’t think it’s a hint, just a goof. They’ve goofed before, showing stuff by accident.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Personally I'm still rather skeptical of Heihachi due to these two quotes by Sakurai, one from when he announced Wii Fit Trainer and the other when he announced PAC-MAN.

To be blunt, if I think I can do it then I can envision a concrete embodiment of the character, but if I cannot do that the character cannot be made.” This is a big factor. Of course getting permission and understanding from the original creators is necessary, but whether the image of the character in my head is dancing powerfully, or not. This is of the utmost importance. On the contrary, no matter how suited a character may be to fighting, if I cannot meaningfully distinguish them from other characters, or create fun unique characteristics of the characters, then that’s the end for them.

Sakurai: There were none. We basically thought of all the characters at the start of development. We decided on characters we knew we could make. However, there were a few in consideration, such as Heihachi from “Tekken.”

Interviewer: Heihachi!

Sakurai: That’s right. However, implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult…

Heihachi's got the popularity and legacy to be in Smash, but it seems that Sakurai has had trouble implementing him as an enjoyable character to play, which is the most immportant aspect since smash is a video game first and a hall of fame second. A long time has passed since the start of development of Smash 4 and it's possible that Sakurai has found a vision on how to implement Heihachi into Smash now for Ultimate DLC, but right now we have nothing to confirm that he's changed his mind.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Personally I'm still rather skeptical of Heihachi due to these two quotes by Sakurai, one from when he announced Wii Fit Trainer and the other when he announced PAC-MAN.

Heihachi's got the popularity and legacy to be in Smash, but it seems that Sakurai has had trouble implementing him as an enjoyable character to play, which is the most immportant aspect since smash is a video game first and a hall of fame second. A long time has passed since the start of development of Smash 4 and it's possible that Sakurai has found a vision on how to implement Heihachi into Smash now for Ultimate DLC, but right now we have nothing to confirm that he's changed his mind.

I think it's less about Heihachi being an "enjoyable character" to play as and more about representing Tekken's gameplay in Smash in a way that Sakurai feels is faithful to the original series.

Third party newcomers are often praised because of the little details in their playstyle that make them seem closer to their original game. Mainly characters like Simon and Mega Man. Sakurai probably wasn't able to do that with Heihachi - makes sense, as he isn't "just a fighting game character", he's a Tekken character. It's the same vein that makes the RPG characters and the platformer characters different from one another - the way they borrow from their origins.

For reasons that aren't clear to us, Sakurai could not achieve that with Heihachi at a planning level, before assets for the characters were even made, so he discarded the idea - no different from a few other characters we know, like Villager and Ridley.

It's perfectly fine to be skeptical due to the situation having possibly remained the same... but nonetheless, he's still one of Namco's strongest candidates and shouldn't be counted out prematurely.