Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Flik]

Personally I'm still rather skeptical of Heihachi due to these two quotes by Sakurai, one from when he announced Wii Fit Trainer and the other when he announced PAC-MAN.



Heihachi's got the popularity and legacy to be in Smash, but it seems that Sakurai has had trouble implementing him as an enjoyable character to play, which is the most immportant aspect since smash is a video game first and a hall of fame second. A long time has passed since the start of development of Smash 4 and it's possible that Sakurai has found a vision on how to implement Heihachi into Smash now for Ultimate DLC, but right now we have nothing to confirm that he's changed his mind.

This is why I believe Jin and Kazuya are objectively the better choices for a Tekken character in Smash Bros: They are just as important to Tekken, just as popular, have more tools to make a unique moveset with their Devil Forms - and in Kazuya's case, it would be tied to one of Tekken's gameplay mechanics - and are the characters the story of Tekken will focus from now on. In the end of the day, Heihachi would be just an boisterous old man that punches and kicks really hard - and there is nothing wrong with that, my favorite character in this game is "just another anime swordfighter" - while Jin and Kazuya would punch and kick just as hard while also being able to fly around shooting laser.

Personally, I think Kazuya would a cooler addition than Jin because he would/could be the token villain of this Fighter Pass, but that's just me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Personally, I think Kazuya would a cooler addition than Jin because he would/could be the token villain of this Fighter Pass, but that's just me.

Base Jin on his Tekken 3 self so we can have both.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I feel like the only reason Heihachi is seen as the face of Tekken is because he’s the only Mishima to be playable in every game. If Kazuya was in Tekken 3 I’d fell like he’d be seen as the face, or at least the co-face of the series.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I think it's less about Heihachi being an "enjoyable character" to play as and more about representing Tekken's gameplay in Smash in a way that Sakurai feels is faithful to the original series.

Third party newcomers are often praised because of the little details in their playstyle that make them seem closer to their original game. Mainly characters like Simon and Mega Man. Sakurai probably wasn't able to do that with Heihachi - makes sense, as he isn't "just a fighting game character", he's a Tekken character. It's the same vein that makes the RPG characters and the platformer characters different from one another - the way they borrow from their origins.

For reasons that aren't clear to us, Sakurai could not achieve that with Heihachi at a planning level, before assets for the characters were even made, so he discarded the idea - no different from a few other characters we know, like Villager and Ridley.

It's perfectly fine to be skeptical due to the situation having possibly remained the same... but nonetheless, he's still one of Namco's strongest candidates and shouldn't be counted out prematurely.

Oh don't worry I'm not completely dismissing the idea or treating him as disconfirmed, I just feel less certain of his chances than most due to this roadblock.

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

Hmm maybe Crash? I know he's not as associated with Sony now, but he was back in the day.

 

[Idon]

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

Crash Bandicoot for a more friendly image, but Kratos definitely strikes me as the "PS4 guy" of the era. Lagging waaaay behind would be someone like Nathan Drake from Uncharted but honestly... who seriously wants that guy in Smash?

 

[GoodGrief741]

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

Crash for sure.

Crash Bandicoot for a more friendly image, but Kratos definitely strikes me as the "PS4 guy" of the era. Lagging waaaay behind would be someone like Nathan Drake from Uncharted but honestly... who seriously wants that guy in Smash?

*Uncharted theme intensifies behind me*

 

[Deleted member]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

I really hope so. They can bring some cool stuff to the game.

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

As in Sony owned... that's difficult. I remember some Japanese polls mentioning Kat from Gravity Rush, Alloy is one of their popular new icons and went toe to toe with BotW 2 years ago, Nathan Drake is also relatively popular but I think Kratos would be like the main pick if there was a Sony-owned character.

If not Sony owned, probably Crash just due to the association with Sony on the 90s but I would like to see Kazuma Kiryu personally.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I feel like the only reason Heihachi is seen as the face of Tekken is because he’s the only Mishima to be playable in every game. If Kazuya was in Tekken 3 I’d fell like he’d be seen as the face, or at least the co-face of the series.

He's also by far the most characterized and likeable Mishima in the franchise.

Heihachi is a bad dude. He did some ****ed up ****. But he did it with his own personal beliefs in mind. He threw Kazuya off a cliff yes but only after he learned the dark truth of Kazumi. He found a love interest somewhere down the line and became the father of Lars. He raised Lee Chaolan as his own just for Kazuya to have rivalry with. He tricked Jin into thinking that he was something he never was. He's selfish, yes, he's a jack ass, absolutely, but he has reasons and a character behind his undoubtably villainous acts. Kazuya isn't at all interesting. He's super powerful and out for revenge. That's it. Oh wait now he's got a devil gene. Woo? Jin? Jin doesn't really have any motivation at all. He's just kind of sappy and doesn't want the power he has.

Don't get me wrong I feel like Kazuya and Jin absolutely fit with the franchise and helps it be a very interesting fighting game character wise but they're really stock characters. Of course even then most of the most interesting characters are outside the usual story circle.

Point is, Heihachi's just a so much more likeable character. He has motivations, he's evil, he's even goofy and emotional sometimes. Heihachi is the most fleshed out Mishima by far and that's why everyone loves him. That's why he's the quote unquote "face" of the series despite him not ever being a main character. He's like, the essence of Tekken.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Yeah, Crash seems the most likely to me exactly because he is no longer exclusive to Sony. And he has enough clout worldwide, too.

Wondering what his trailer would be like... maybe something similar to Pac-Man's, with him being Orange? The characters in that trailer were all from platformers.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I mean, does Jin have more of a poster boy status for Tekken than Heihachi? Could he be more a case of Cloud/Joker being the reps of their franchises?

Oh don't worry I'm not completely dismissing the idea or treating him as disconfirmed, I just feel less certain of his chances than most due to this roadblock.

Hmm maybe Crash? I know he's not as associated with Sony now, but he was back in the day.

Maybe Nintendo decided to go overseas for the two candidates that would somewhat represent both their rivals in the console business; Banjo for Microsoft and Crash for Sony!

So a question; if we were to hypothetically get a Metal Slug character over a Contra one would there be a general negative reaction? Would there be great, outright confusion as to why they would skip over the more historic, more Nintendo-associated pick whose company is already on board and instead went out of their way to go with a different company's "inferior" equivalent? Are there examples of that you can think of where they could/did pick such a "less appropriate" variety of something to potential negative response?

 

[KillerCage]

I'm not asking for more female characters i'm just saying how likely do you think we're going to get a female character.

I'm very doubtful we'll get another female character in the Fighters' Pass. Since Square Enix and Sega got their DLC characters, the chances of characters like Arle from Puyo Puyo and Lara Croft are basically shot. If Capcom gets another fighter, characters like Morrigan and Amaterasu, while iconic, I feel are too niche and obscure to be considered and Chun-li, Miss Fighting Game, is a upgrade-able spirit. Jill Valentine, while popular, doesn't have a strong link to Nintendo; Leon has that strong link with the N64 port of RE2 and the original release of RE4 on the Gamecube. If we are talking about Bamco, KOS-MOS is not well known outside the Xeno series (lumping Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade together) and Velvet is overshadowed by Lloyd and Yuri. Shantae is a spirit in World of Light and it is very likely that spirits deconfirm characters. The only female character that I think could get into Smash Bro and is fairly recognizable is Frisk from Undertale, but even then it is not clear whether or not Frisk is a girl or a boy.

 

[Will]

I mean, does Jin have more of a poster boy status for Tekken than Heihachi?

it's either heihachi or jin. IMO it's heads or tails, no wrong answer for picking either one

we just know heihachi more, he ain't an old man for no reason

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

If not Sony owned then Crash Bandicoot.
If Sony Owned then Kratos.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I'm very doubtful we'll get another female character in the Fighters' Pass. Since Square Enix and Sega got their DLC characters, the chances of characters like Arle from Puyo Puyo and Lara Croft are basically shot. If Capcom gets another fighter, characters like Morrigan and Amaterasu, while iconic, I feel are too niche and obscure to be considered and Chun-li, Miss Fighting Game, is a upgrade-able spirit. Jill Valentine, while popular, doesn't have a strong link to Nintendo; Leon has that strong link with the N64 port of RE2 and the original release of RE4 on the Gamecube. If we are talking about Bamco, KOS-MOS is not well known outside the Xeno series (lumping Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade together) and Velvet is overshadowed by Lloyd and Yuri. Shantae is a spirit in World of Light and it is very likely that spirits deconfirm characters. The only female character that I think could get into Smash Bro and is fairly recognizable is Frisk from Undertale, but even then it is not clear whether or not Frisk is a girl or a boy.

Velvet shouldn't be written off just yet. Sure Lloyd and Yuri are the top choices but Velvet is a darkhorse character. She's the most recent protagonist of the Tales series right now much like how the Luminary and Joker are the most recent ones from their series. She's still decently popular in the Tales fanbase. She would also be very unique. Although any Tales character can unique with the Tales Series gameplay and the arte combo tree system implemented, Velvet also hasher demon arm(her Break Soul ability that Berseria uses) that slowly drains her health but boosts her power. And she would perfectly draw in a demographic, mainly female gamers not into Smash yet, since Tales Of has a notable female fanbase.

 

[GoodGrief741]

He's also by far the most characterized and likeable Mishima in the franchise.

Heihachi is a bad dude. He did some ****ed up ****. But he did it with his own personal beliefs in mind. He threw Kazuya off a cliff yes but only after he learned the dark truth of Kazumi. He found a love interest somewhere down the line and became the father of Lars. He raised Lee Chaolan as his own just for Kazuya to have rivalry with. He tricked Jin into thinking that he was something he never was. He's selfish, yes, he's a jack ***, absolutely, but he has reasons and a character behind his undoubtably villainous acts. Kazuya isn't at all interesting. He's super powerful and out for revenge. That's it. Oh wait now he's got a devil gene. Woo? Jin? Jin doesn't really have any motivation at all. He's just kind of sappy and doesn't want the power he has.

Don't get me wrong I feel like Kazuya and Jin absolutely fit with the franchise and helps it be a very interesting fighting game character wise but they're really stock characters. Of course even then most of the most interesting characters are outside the usual story circle.

Point is, Heihachi's just a so much more likeable character. He has motivations, he's evil, he's even goofy and emotional sometimes. Heihachi is the most fleshed out Mishima by far and that's why everyone loves him. That's why he's the quote unquote "face" of the series despite him not ever being a main character. He's like, the essence of Tekken.

In other words, he's the main character. He gets the kind of development and focus a main character gets, the story revolves around him, he's the main character.

A rare case of a villain protagonist, but there's no doubt he's the one.

I mean, does Jin have more of a poster boy status for Tekken than Heihachi? Could he be more a case of Cloud/Joker being the reps of their franchises?

Not at all.

So a question; if we were to hypothetically get a Metal Slug character over a Contra one would there be a general negative reaction? Would there be great, outright confusion as to why they would skip over the more historic, more Nintendo-associated pick whose company is already on board and instead went out of their way to go with a different company's "inferior" equivalent? Are there examples of that you can think of where they could/did pick such a "less appropriate" variety of something to potential negative response?

I don't think there'd be. For all of Contra's iconicness, Bill and Lance have really very little personality, and not as much moveset potential, compared to the Metal Slug crew. In a character focused crossover, I could see them going for MS.

 

[Will]

So a question; if we were to hypothetically get a Metal Slug character over a Contra one would there be a general negative reaction?

i guarantee you that 90% of the people who have known or played at least the original Contra don't even know that the protag's full name is Bill Rizer

or that he has a clone but you gotta play a lot of the games for that weird plotline

 

[Deleted member]

I'm very doubtful we'll get another female character in the Fighters' Pass. Since Square Enix and Sega got their DLC characters, the chances of characters like Arle from Puyo Puyo and Lara Croft are basically shot. If Capcom gets another fighter, characters like Morrigan and Amaterasu, while iconic, I feel are too niche and obscure to be considered and Chun-li, Miss Fighting Game, is a upgrade-able spirit. Jill Valentine, while popular, doesn't have a strong link to Nintendo; Leon has that strong link with the N64 port of RE2 and the original release of RE4 on the Gamecube. If we are talking about Bamco, KOS-MOS is not well known outside the Xeno series (lumping Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade together) and Velvet is overshadowed by Lloyd and Yuri. Shantae is a spirit in World of Light and it is very likely that spirits deconfirm characters. The only female character that I think could get into Smash Bro and is fairly recognizable is Frisk from Undertale, but even then it is not clear whether or not Frisk is a girl or a boy.

I wouldn't discard Jill on the grounds of Leon being more Nintendo friendly given that we got Cloud and Joker over the likes of Terra or a SMT rep. I would say that you could have a better argument using popularity. I would say that both are fair game with a slight advantage for Leon.

Plus while a few series might seem obscure to you, we have gotten a few characters so far with that status given that we got Joker and Bayo in the game.

 

[StormC]

I'm not that invested in whether or not we will get a female character but I kinda think for the sake of business and optics it would not be a great look if the entire Pass is dudes and Kazooie. Jill would just be such an easy win in that regard, but it's very possible Nintendo doesn't care.

Velvet shouldn't be written off just yet. Sure Lloyd and Yuri are the top choices but Velvet is a darkhorse character. She's the most recent protagonist of the Tales series right now much like how the Luminary and Joker are the most recent ones from their series. She's still decently popular in the Tales fanbase. She would also be very unique. Although any Tales character can unique with the Tales Series gameplay and the arte combo tree system implemented, Velvet also hasher demon arm(her Break Soul ability that Berseria uses) that slowly drains her health but boosts her power. And she would perfectly draw in a demographic, mainly female gamers not into Smash yet, since Tales Of has a notable female fanbase.

Think the issue is Velvet is dwarfed by other characters in terms of popularity in the Tales fandom. Sakurai made a point that Cloud was far and away the most popular Final Fantasy character. Velvet's only real advantages from where I'm standing are gameplay potential, being a female character, and potentially advertising a Berseria port coming to Switch... but it really just seems like a stretch to me that she would be picked. I think by and large Tales fans would be upset that she was picked over Lloyd or Yuri, honestly.

 

[tenworldsguy]

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

Well, besides the obvious in Crash?
Kat or Kratos would be two characters from PASBR that would be really neat (despite having played neither game), as well as Spyro (who was NOT in PASBR for reasons unknown to me) who could offer a unique body type, but personally I would love Ratchet/Clank from their namesake series. Those games are based around getting a lot of weapons to kill stuff deader with, so it's not like moveset potential is a hard part. Sly would also be a cool early Playstation rep but not nearly as unique as Ratchet. There's also Abe from Ape Escape for a cool moveset/early playstation rep, but he's far too obscure to compare to the likes of Banjo or Hero (even if Smash isn't known for including the most popular last). Obscurity hinders a lot of these character's chances, to be fair.

On a slightly related topic. Suppose that Incineroar, Isabelle, and all the echoes (sans Richter) were revealed right off the bat, and Ridley, Simon, and Rool were revealed in late October or something. How different do you guys think the smash community reception would have been? Def makes you appreciate the "worst for last" thing they're going for in smash bros usually (no offense to Incin, Isabelle, Plant, etc)

 

[Will]

Kat

who in the goddamn hell is kat

 

[Megadoomer]

Changing the topics a bit: if Banjo and Kazooie are our newcomers directly from Microsoft, is there any other character heavily associated with Sony (besides Joker) that you guys and girls feel has a shot?

Heavily associated with? I'd probably say Heihachi, Dante, or Crash Bandicoot, in no particular order. There's probably more, but those are the main ones that come to mind.

I can't think that any characters owned by Sony (such as Ratchet and Clank, as fun as it seems like they would be) stand a chance of getting in, though.

who in the goddamn hell is kat

The main character of Gravity Rush.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wondering what his trailer would be like... maybe something similar to Pac-Man's, with him being Orange? The characters in that trailer were all from platformers.

Pac-Man is my favorite platformer.

(Yes I know Pac-Man World and Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures exist, but they're not his claim to fame and have 0 representation in Smash.)

 

[OrpheusTelos]

It's kind of dissapointing that Velvet is overshadowed by Lloyd and Yuri because she seems like the coolest addition out of the three. I'm usually one to stick up for "anime swordfighters", but Velvet's gimmick seems like it'd make for a really fun moveset that'd help her stick out from the typical JRPG swordsmen that people would no doubt compare Lloyd or Yuri to

The only female character that I think could get into Smash Bro and is fairly recognizable is Frisk from Undertale, but even then it is not clear whether or not Frisk is a girl or a boy.

For all intents and purposes, I personally consider Frisk non binary. Their gender is intentionally vague so that it'd be easier for the player to project onto them regardless of gender identity, so Frisk's gender is usually the same as the player's. I don't know how gendering works in Japanese or how Frisk was addressed in Undertale's Japanese translation, but I think Frisk's gender in Smash would ultimately depend on how they're seen in Japan. I don't see why they wouldn't be addressed with they/them in the English version since that's most likely what Toby would want, but for languages that are heavily gendered such as Spanish, that's going to be a little trickier to work out.

 

[GoodGrief741]

On a slightly related topic. Suppose that Incineroar, Isabelle, and all the echoes (sans Richter) were revealed right off the bat, and Ridley, Simon, and Rool were revealed in late October or something. How different do you guys think the smash community reception would have been?

Way better. Instead of building a hype train before driving it off a cliff, it would have been continuing with the Smash 4 tradition before going into hyperdrive.

 

[KillerCage]

who in the goddamn hell is kat

I believe he referring to Kat from Gravity Rush.

Credit goes to GENZOMAN on DeviantArt for the artwork.

 

[Will]

I believe he referring to Kat from Gravity Rush.

View attachment 232523
Credit goes to GENZOMAN on DeviantArt for the artwork.

gonna have to pass

you cant trust a girl who can run in high heels

 

[Deleted member]

gonna have to pass

you cant trust a girl who can run in high heels

Jokes on you, she floats.

 

[Will]

Jokes on you, she floats.

even worse

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

even worse

From what I understand she's basically Magneto, but her method of flight is just her falling in any given direction.

Also she has a space kitty.

 

[tenworldsguy]

Spoiler: text wall

For all intents and purposes, I personally consider Frisk non binary. Their gender is intentionally vague so that it'd be easier for the player to project onto them regardless of gender identity, so Frisk's gender is usually the same as the player's. I don't know how gendering works in Japanese or how Frisk was addressed in Undertale's Japanese translation, but I think Frisk's gender in Smash would ultimately depend on how they're seen in Japan. I don't see why they wouldn't be addressed with they/them in the English version since that's most likely what Toby would want, but for languages that are heavily gendered such as Spanish, that's going to be a little trickier to work out.

I personally just assumed it simpler to not assume a gender with Frisk. All we really know about them is
A) human
B) child
Toby Fox is a cryptic creator, but if he wanted Frisk to have a defined gender he prolly would've explicitly stated what he envisioned Frisk as. All this really equates to is that Frisk shouldn't really be counted a female fighter and probably will lack a voice (the only time I'd actually be okay with making a character inexplicably mute).

What could Frisk do as a fighter anyways? I don't mean to be a spoilsport but sans (heh) fan movesets there isn't much Frisk does as a combatee, from what I have observed?

I believe he referring to Kat from Gravity Rush.

Yep. The Kat that from what I understand sort of bends gravity to her whim? that's the one i refer to.
Noticable in the mentioned smash parody as she was not only DLC but easily top teir. Reminds me of a fellow witch in that regard...

 

[Will]

Toby Fox is a cryptic creator, but if he wanted Frisk to have a defined gender he prolly would've explicitly stated what he envisioned Frisk as. All this really equates to is that Frisk shouldn't really be counted a female fighter and probably will lack a voice (the only time I'd actually be okay with making a character inexplicably mute).

frisk's gender is determination

which is what i assume is toby fox saying "dude who ****ing cares"

 

[OrpheusTelos]

I personally just assumed it simpler to not assume a gender with Frisk. All we really know about them is
A) human
B) child
Toby Fox is a cryptic creator, but if he wanted Frisk to have a defined gender he prolly would've explicitly stated what he envisioned Frisk as. All this really equates to is that Frisk shouldn't really be counted a female fighter and probably will lack a voice (the only time I'd actually be okay with making a character inexplicably mute).

What could Frisk do as a fighter anyways? I don't mean to be a spoilsport but sans (heh) fan movesets there isn't much Frisk does as a combatee, from what I have observed?

Yeah, as someone who has witnessed Frisk gender debates in the past, it's usually best to just avoid gendering them. Frisk, Chara, and Kris are all meant to be proxies for the player in some capacity, so their personalities, gender, etc are all going to depend on personal headcanons and how the player sees them. Making Frisk mute would be the best option because I can't think of any practical reason to give them a voice.

As far as moveset potential is concerned, I've seen a few concepts where their attacks are based on "pacifying" their opponent and killing them with kindness, and I've seen some that make Frisk more homocidal the more damage they deal. If it were up to me, I'd do something more akin to a stance change mechanic where Frisk would swap between ACTing and FIGHTing at will and their moveset would change to reflect that, similar to Pokemon Trainer but without needing a separate character model.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I see Frisk and Chara as girls, though I’ve seen people say to others “you mean ‘they’?” instead of understanding it’s their headcanon and they’re not forcing it on anyone.

Though of course I’d see Smash sticking with “they.”

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...and Kris...

Wait there's a third one? (I should probably just pretend I didn't read this on the off chance that I'm actually able to finish playing the game.)

 

[Will]

Wait there's a third one?

it's just another anagram they used for deltarune

 

[TheCJBrine]

Wait there's a third one? (I should probably just pretend I didn't read this on the off chance that I'm actually able to finish playing the game.)

Kris is who you play as in Deltarune.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Sony were to be getting a rep. We'd be getting Kratos, Sack Boy and Nathan Drake long before we'd get Kat.

She's nowhere as iconic and popular as those three are given the former two are pretty much the current faces of Sony nowadays.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If you were forced to bet real life money on who you think the last two DLC characters are, who would you predict at this current time?

Hmm...Ryu Hayabusa and...Jill Valentine.

If Sony were to be getting a rep. We'd be getting Kratos, Sack Boy and Nathan Drake long before we'd get Kat.

Let's be real, it'd be Kratos. He was in Mortal Kombat. He was in Soul Calibur. He was in Shovel Knight. He IS Sony's crossover character.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If Sony were to be getting a rep. We'd be getting Kratos, Sack Boy and Nathan Drake long before we'd get Kat.

She's nowhere as iconic and popular as those three are given the former two are pretty much the current faces of Sony nowadays.

Sackboy seems like the current face of Sony to you?