Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[3BitSaurus]

Is it bad that I find these spirits to be already more Square content than Final Fantasy?

Even if that's it for the Board, it's certainly way more content than FF already.

Heck, if you count the Hero's potential four Fighter Spirits, that's almost as many Spirits as Joker came with.

 

[Megadoomer]

yes, yes it is,
And on a side note why is Square-Enix being so restrictive with when comes to smash(Compare to other third party studios).

Maybe they handle things like artwork and music differently than other companies? I don't know much about copyright when it comes to specific companies, but Dragon Quest's composer got his own credit in Hero's trailer, which was rather unusual.

Then again, Tetsuya Nomura was involved in Smash 4 (drawing Cloud's newcomer poster) and Nobuo Uematsu was involved in Brawl (composing the main theme), so I can't think they'd have any issue with having their work appear in Smash. Maybe Square-Enix just wanted too much money for more than the barest minimum to be used.

 

[Sari]

Well this took me a while but here it is just like I promised:

My analysis on Heihachi's chances.​

[Putting it in a spoiler tag since it turned out to be very big]

Spoiler: Heihachi Analysis

Things that Heihachi has going for him:

• Tekken is one of Namco's biggest series and probably the biggest fighting game franchise after Street Fighter. Tekken 7 recently surpassed 4 million copies sold which helps to emphasize this.
• Heihachi was briefly considered for SSB4 before they decided on Pac-Man as a Namco rep. Heihachi would later appear as a mii costume.
• The fact that he's the most important character in the series and that Sakurai considered him makes him the true frontrunner for a Tekken rep.
• Namco helped with SSBU so another rep from them makes sense.
• Despite the lack of mainline games on Nintendo systems in recent years, we've gotten games like Tekken Tag Tournament 2 (which even had Nintendo themed costumes) so Nintendo unfamiliarity is not an issue at all.

Now I'll bring up some common arguments used against Heihachi and lend my two cents on whether they actually matter or not:

"We have Ryu as a fighting game rep so there can't be another!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Absolutely not
This is one of the silliest arguments used to downplay Heihachi's inclusion. There is no rule saying we can't get more than one fighting game character and thinking that there is one would be like thinking Cloud is our sole JRPG rep. Ryu's moves and Heihachi's moves are different enough to make Heihachi a completely different fighter than Ryu.

"Heihachi's VA passed away so his character is retired!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Not really
On August 13th 2018, Unsho Ishizuka - the current VA of Heihachi at the time - passed away. His death was very unfortunate as he voiced many other amazing characters aside from Heihachi such as Professor Oak and Joseph Joestar. Many people have said that because of his death, Heihachi is done for in Tekken-related media. This has been recently proven to be false as Heihachi will be appearing as a guest-star in the King of Fighters All-Stars mobile game. What is interesting about this is that all of the characters in KoF All-Stars are fully voiced, meaning that Heihachi will have to be voiced by someone when he is available.

When I brought this topic up a few days ago, I said that AFAIK all of the KoF All-Stars characters had completely new voice lines. While this is true for most of the characters, others such as Kyo and Iori seem to have their voiceclips reused from KoF XIII. This opens up the possibility of Heihachi's voiceclips being reused from Tekken 7, which would show that Namco is fine with doing the same thing in other games such as Smash. I don't see anything wrong with doing so as it'd be a nice tribute to the late Unsho Ishizuka. Of course there is the issue of Sakurai just throwing away the whole Tekken rep idea since his VA passed, but I'll get to this later. Otherwise he'll have to have a new VA which would be used for Smash.

On a somewhat related note, I'm pretty sure the whole "if a Japanese VA dies, their character dies too" thing is either made up or greatly exaggerated. One of Heihachi's older VA's passed away before Unsho Ishizuka started voicing him, and off the top of my head Hiromi Tsuru (who voiced Bulma in Dragon Ball for over 30 years) got replaced in less than 3 months for a bath cleaning commercial and had a role in the new Broly movie. Maybe I'm wrong on this tradition so if I am please tell me.

"Heihachi dies at the end of Tekken 7, so his character is done for!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Absolutely not
I didn't even think this was a real argument used against Heihachi, but I saw it get brought up in the Lloyd Irving thread. If we based characters chances on whether they are alive or not, then Ganondorf should've never been in Melee since he dies all the time, Marth should've been cut in SSB4 since by the time of Awakening he is already deceased, and Ridley should've never been in Ultimate since he died in Super Metroid (and his clone died in Other M). Also the fact that Heihachi will be appearing in the KoF All-Stars mobile game flat out deconfirms that Heihachi can't appear in spin-offs anymore.

"Sakurai had trouble thinking of a moveset for him in SSB4!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Possibly
A common misconception is that Heihachi was going to be in SSB4 but got scrapped just because Sakurai had trouble creating a moveset for him. This is not true as he was only briefly considered before they went with Pac-Man, who is way more popular and had an easier to make moveset. All Sakurai said about Heihachi is that "implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult." As far as we know they didn't actually work on making a professional moveset for him.

Unlike most fighting games such as Street Fighter that have just normal attacks and specials, Tekken uses a left/right limb system with each button representing one of your limbs. For a grounded 3D fighter like Tekken it works very well, though translating that into Smash seems nearly impossible given that we only have an attack and a special button. Even with Playstation All-stars having 3 attack buttons they didn't even properly implement the limb system into Heihachi's moveset in that game. Of course they could just forget about the limb system altogether, but it's a big part of Tekken that it'd have to be incorporated if they wanted Heihachi to stay true to his character (hence why Sakurai said it'd be difficult to implement his moveset to begin with). I haven't been able to find a fanmade moveset for Heihachi that properly utilizes the limb system, though considering what Sakurai has done in the past I don't think it'd be too impossible.

"Heihachi appears in Pac-Man's taunt!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Possibly
In terms of Heihachi being able to appear at the same time as the Heihachi sprite, the taunt means absolutely nothing. There are a ton of instances of characters appearing multiple times such as Chrom in Robin's FS and Mario in the Piranha Plant victory screen. To say that they wouldn't add Heihachi because there'd be a small pixelated version of him also present during a match is just downright silly.

However, some may view the Pac-Man Heihachi sprite as a consolation prize to have Heihachi in Smash in some form due to issues in trying to make him playable. In other words the sprite can be viewed as "sorry Heihachi couldn't be playable whether it be due to his VA's recent passing or implementing his moveset, here he is represented in some form." Heihachi wasn't the only new Pac-Man taunt character added as we also got the Katamari Prince, so maybe they just wanted to add some more Namco characters to the Pac-Man taunt. One thing that should be worth noting is that the Heihachi sprite is taken directly from Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and wasn't just made for Smash. I'm not sure what to make of it though I certainly don't see it as a good thing for Heihachi.

"He has to compete with a Tales character!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Yes
I don't see us getting more than two Namco reps for this season as I think Nintendo is going to get another company represented for one of the remaining slots. So if we get someone from another Namco franchise I think it is over for Heihachi. One of the frontrunners for a Namco rep is a Tales rep, the main candidate being Lloyd Irving who Sakurai said would be the best way to represent the Tales series. Lloyd seems to be a much more popular Smash pick and like Heihachi he also has some past Smash presence in the form of a mii costume in SSB4. He is definitely the biggest hurdle for Heihachi.

So overall while I'm still not too confident on Heihachi making it in (mainly because of the Pac-Man taunt, Tales, and the issues with his moveset) I do think some people are really sleeping on him. If I had to give him a chance % I think I'd give him a 25% chance of happening.

Oh and in the event Heihachi turns out to be a mii costume and this entire post becomes obsolete, it should be remembered that Tekken is one of Namco's biggest series so the chances of us getting a Tekken rep are always good for a Smash game as long as Namco is willing to cooperate.

 

[SimonferSmash]

I am one to not act like any character or third party company is a lock, guarantee, or set in stone.

Anything can happen and I'm just gonna wait and see what the last two are without much preconceived notions.

Personally speaking however, I would like the 4th and 5th to come from brand new studios since I really want some unexpected curve balls considering these might be the very last newcomers we may get for a long while.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Is it bad that I find these spirits to be already more Square content than Final Fantasy?

Even just having Spirits in the first place puts DQ above FF. FF literally only had a Cloud Fighter spirit and one for his alt.

I mean even the character alone is more content than FF. Actually being able to reference numerous games in the series. Not only is the FF representation starved on FF7 content in terms of music (no One Winged Angel and JENOVA should be a war crime) and spirits/trophies (no other FF7 characters), it pretty much pretends the other games don't exist.

 

[Deleted member]

The Dokm games are very popular. Doom Eternal is coming soon. Of course they'd report the other 3 Doom games to be consoles.


The Earthbound and Mother series was never unreleased because of cultural differences. Japan has different music laws than us. They can sample music as kuch as they want for games as long as it's not a Direct rip. Earthbound did that for Johnny B. Goode off the top of my head but getting rights for that song is probably far easier than the songs they sampled for Mother 3.
Nintendo could get sued really ****ing hard if these rights aren't settled out before a Western release. Which is why it's taken so long.

Never heard that the music issue was harsher for Mother 3 in comparison with prebious games, I have never played Mother 3 but I always thought the issues with the games were related to stuff like the Magypsies or that scene with the nude guy that seemed a bit awkward.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Another Spirit for DQ was found. Similar URL as the others.

Spoiler

It's the party of DQXI, under the name "Group".

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On a somewhat related note, I'm pretty sure the whole "if a Japanese VA dies, their character dies too" thing is either made up or greatly exaggerated.

I don't think it's made up, as it seems to be the reason why Phil (a normally talkative character) doesn't have any voice lines in Kingdom Hearts 3. I would agree about it being exaggerated though since other (more story important) characters in Kingdom Hearts 3 were recast because their original voice actors are deceased.

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if Heihachi was revived for some reason in Tekken 8.

 

[RileyXY1]

The first 3 Doom games now being on the Switch makes Doomguy more likely to be added, in my opinion.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

"Sakurai had trouble thinking of a moveset for him in SSB4!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Possibly
A common misconception is that Heihachi was going to be in SSB4 but got scrapped just because Sakurai had trouble creating a moveset for him. This is not true as he was only briefly considered before they went with Pac-Man, who is way more popular and had an easier to make moveset. All Sakurai said about Heihachi is that "implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult." As far as we know they didn't actually work on making a professional moveset for him.

Unlike most fighting games such as Street Fighter that have just normal attacks and specials, Tekken uses a left/right limb system with each button representing one of your limbs. For a grounded 3D fighter like Tekken it works very well, though translating that into Smash seems nearly impossible given that we only have an attack and a special button. Even with Playstation All-stars having 3 attack buttons they didn't even properly implement the limb system into Heihachi's moveset in that game. Of course they could just forget about the limb system altogether, but it's a big part of Tekken that it'd have to be incorporated if they wanted Heihachi to stay true to his character (hence why Sakurai said it'd be difficult to implement his moveset to begin with). I haven't been able to find a fanmade moveset for Heihachi that properly utilizes the limb system, though considering what Sakurai has done in the past I don't think it'd be too impossible.

"Heihachi appears in Pac-Man's taunt!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Possibly
In terms of Heihachi being able to appear at the same time as the Heihachi sprite, the taunt means absolutely nothing. There are a ton of instances of characters appearing multiple times such as Chrom in Robin's FS and Mario in the Piranha Plant victory screen. To say that they wouldn't add Heihachi because there'd be a small pixelated version of him also present during a match is just downright silly.

​

However, some may view the Pac-Man Heihachi sprite as a consolation prize to have Heihachi in Smash in some form due to issues in trying to make him playable. In other words the sprite can be viewed as "sorry Heihachi couldn't be playable whether it be due to his VA's recent passing or implementing his moveset, here he is represented in some form." Heihachi wasn't the only new Pac-Man taunt character added as we also got the Katamari Prince, so maybe they just wanted to add some more Namco characters to the Pac-Man taunt. One thing that should be worth noting is that the Heihachi sprite is taken directly from Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and wasn't just made for Smash. I'm not sure what to make of it though I certainly don't see it as a good thing for Heihachi.

"He has to compete with a Tales character!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Yes
I don't see us getting more than two Namco reps for this season as I think Nintendo is going to get another company represented for one of the remaining slots. So if we get someone from another Namco franchise I think it is over for Heihachi. One of the frontrunners for a Namco rep is a Tales rep, the main candidate being Lloyd Irving who Sakurai said would be the best way to represent the Tales series. Lloyd seems to be a much more popular Smash pick and like Heihachi he also has some past Smash presence in the form of a mii costume in SSB4. He is definitely the biggest hurdle for Heihachi.

----------

So overall while I'm still not too confident on Heihachi making it in (mainly because of the Pac-Man taunt, Tales, and the issues with his moveset) I do think some people are really sleeping on him. If I had to give him a chance % I think I'd give him a 25% chance of happening.

Oh and in the event Heihachi turns out to be a mii costume and this entire post becomes obsolete, it should be remembered that Tekken is one of Namco's biggest series so the chances of us getting a Tekken rep are always good for a Smash game as long as Namco is willing to cooperate.

Very good analysis!

Personally I'm still rather skeptical of him due to the you points brought up in the moveset and PAC-MAN taunt section. How likely due you feel Lloyd Irving is?

 

[Izanagi97]

So I guess we are currently at around 8 spirits found for DQ so far.

 

[Deleted member]

"Heihachi dies at the end of Tekken 7, so his character is done for!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Absolutely not
I didn't even think this was a real argument used against Heihachi, but I saw it get brought up in the Lloyd Irving thread. If we based characters chances on whether they are alive or not, then Ganondorf should've never been in Melee since he dies all the time, Marth should've been cut in SSB4 since by the time of Awakening he is already deceased, and Ridley should've never been in Ultimate since he died in Super Metroid (and his clone died in Other M). Also the fact that Heihachi will be appearing in the KoF All-Stars mobile game flat out deconfirms that Heihachi can't appear in spin-offs anymore.

You know of all the reasonings behind why Heihachi probably wouldn't make the cut, I never understood why dying in the story mode would be considered a valid argument. The story of a game doesn't affect someone's chances of being in Smash unless the character themselves are spoiler heavy, so what does dying plot wise have to do with being in Smash?

 

[N3ON]

I'm big on Doom Slayer but I'm not sure whether this is actually a marked positive in terms of his Smash chances. People attribute recent or high volume releases on Nintendo to increased probability, and while they certainly don't hinder chances, the actual correlation seems tenuous.

I do think Doom Slayer still has pretty decent odds regardless, but the number of characters people suddenly consider more likely due to game(s) arriving on a Nintendo system is innumerable and typically fairly baseless. I mean, since Cloud, it's happened to virtually every character with a semblance of existing popularity when a title of theirs graces a Nintendo machine. And look at the dichotomy between those and the four third-party series added so far.

Meanwhile, if the Pete Hines tease of Doom surprises for Nintendo fans was hinting at these ports, and only these ports, then one seemingly crucial piece used to build Doom Slayer's case has been eliminated. Of course, there could still be future surprises. But, the statement has now been accounted for.

So, bottom line, this news is great for Doom fans, but whether it's great specifically for supporters of the Slayer, I'm none too sure.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The story of a game doesn't affect someone's chances of being in Smash unless the character themselves are spoiler heavy...

And even then they might just add it anyway like with Sheik and Seven (The latter isn't playable, but it's inclusion and implementation does spoil an entire major plot point in a story heavy game).

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm big on Doom Slayer but I'm not sure whether this is actually a marked positive in terms of his Smash chances. People attribute recent or high volume releases on Nintendo to increased probability, and while they certainly don't hinder chances, the actual correlation seems tenuous.

I do think Doom Slayer still has pretty decent odds regardless, but the number of characters people suddenly consider more likely due to game(s) arriving on a Nintendo system is innumerable and typically fairly baseless. I mean, since Cloud, it's happened to virtually every character with a semblance of existing popularity when a title of theirs graces a Nintendo machine. And look at the dichotomy between those and the four third-party series added so far.

Meanwhile, if the Pete Hines tease of Doom surprises for Nintendo fans was hinting at these ports, and only these ports, then one seemingly crucial piece used to build Doom Slayer's case has been eliminated. Of course, there could still be future surprises. But, the statement has now been accounted for.

So, bottom line, this news is great for Doom fans, but whether it's great specifically for supporters of the Slayer, I'm none too sure.

These ports are also going to be on the PS4 and XBox One according to the Doomguy support thread, so this isn't the surprise that Pete Hines was talking about.

 

[N3ON]

These ports are also going to be on the PS4 and XBox One according to the Doomguy support thread, so this isn't the surprise that Pete Hines was talking about.

Why not? These are still Doom surprises for Nintendo fans. He made that statement on a Nintendo Power podcast, he's not going to talk about Playstation and Xbox on there.

 

[Flik]

You know of all the reasonings behind why Heihachi probably wouldn't make the cut, I never understood why dying in the story mode would be considered a valid argument. The story of a game doesn't affect someone's chances of being in Smash unless the character themselves are spoiler heavy, so what does dying plot wise have to do with being in Smash?

As someone who has brought that up a few times, my idea at least is that Tekken after its 7th entry would start to focus more on the Jin vs Kazuya feud now that Heihachi is gone. It's less about "Heihachi is dead and this is why he can't be in Smash" and more like "It would make more sense to bring to Smash one of the characters that will protagonize/be the focus of the future games". I can't speak for everyone and sure don't know what plans Bandai Namco have to promote the franchise, it's just my opinion.

A bit off topic, but reviving Heihachi after the amazing send off he got in Tekken 7 would be a huge dissapointment. Bring him back as a playable character, either appearing in a flashback or as non-canon for the sake of his players, but bringing him back to life on the story would be lame.

 

[Sari]

Very good analysis!

Personally I'm still rather skeptical of him due to the you points brought up in the moveset and PAC-MAN taunt section. How likely due you feel Lloyd Irving is?

I feel Lloyd is much more likely since I think we'll get a Namco rep and Lloyd doesn't really have anything going against him like Heihachi does. In terms of Namco reps Lloyd seems to be the frontrunner right now and I wouldn't be too surprised if he made it in.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I feel like not being in PAS is another thing that puts Lloyd over Heihachi. Obviously it doesn't sink Heihachi by itself, but I'd rather go with the character that wasn't associated with that game.

 

[RileyXY1]

Why not? These are still Doom surprises for Nintendo fans. He made that statement on a Nintendo Power podcast, he's not going to talk about Playstation and Xbox on there.

The surprise could be something else, like an official port of Doom 64 to the Switch.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Never heard that the music issue was harsher for Mother 3 in comparison with prebious games, I have never played Mother 3 but I always thought the issues with the games were related to stuff like the Magypsies or that scene with the nude guy that seemed a bit awkward.

Actually a big reason why it took so long for Earthbound to come to VC was because of the licensing issues. Strictly speaking, the distinct mention of "The Beatles" in a dialogue conversation about one of their songs, Yesterday, was a rather large problem and that's not even mentioning the Johnny B. Goode almost complete rip off of a song was in it too.

Both of those things happen in Onett, the first town, now I think that was it for Earthbound and look how long that took. Imagine having to deal with that through an entire, what, 20 hour long RPG? That's why it's taking so long. Plus, I'm sure it's a lot easier to get rights to use The Beatles name and to use Johnny B. Goode than it is to get, oh say, Beat It by Michael ****ing Jackson.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The surprise could be something else, like an official port of Doom 64 to the Switch.

I read somewhere that Midway made Doom 64, and Warner Bros. bought out Midway. So chances are, Warner Bros. either owns Doom 64 in its entirety, or owns a big stake in it, and negotiation may not be so easy.

Which is a shame too, I liked the more survival horror esque vibe that game had, esp with its soundtrack

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I read somewhere that Midway made Doom 64, and Warner Bros. bought out Midway. So chances are, Warner Bros. either owns Doom 64 in its entirety, or owns a big stake in it, and negotiation may not be so easy.

Which is a shame too, I liked the more survival horror esque vibe that game had, esp with its soundtrack

Traditionally, the IP owner still owns the games that are developed underneath their IP. For instance Rareware definitely developed the Donkey Kong Country games but they have absolutely no rights to the games. There are some weird instances where this isn't the case, like Bayonetta 2 is owned by Nintendo but the IP is owned by Sega, but 98% of the time if you own the IP, you own everything officially developed under that IP.

 

[N3ON]

The surprise could be something else, like an official port of Doom 64 to the Switch.

Like I said, there could be additional surprises. But if there aren't, it's not like Hines' statement never came to pass.

Doom 64 seems likely, it was PEGI rated alongside the original two for PC and PS4.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So even if we get it, it won't be any different from these current releases insofar as it's for everything.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Never heard that the music issue was harsher for Mother 3 in comparison with prebious games, I have never played Mother 3 but I always thought the issues with the games were related to stuff like the Magypsies or that scene with the nude guy that seemed a bit awkward.

The Magypsies seem fine imo so idk why people would get mad about them. I guess they are magical and seem alien-like but they’re still treated well and are important characters that help you, with just one being a villain (this is a bit of a spoiler though so not gonna say who, but it’s none of the Magypsies you actually know as Magypsies for most of the game).

And...I don’t remember a scene with nudity...do you mean the scene where one of the Magypsies enables Lucas to use Psi? I guess that could be taken the wrong way, but it could also be seen as something similar to a baptism or something; may just need a bit of editing...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The Magypsies seem fine imo so idk why people would get mad about them. I guess they are magical and seem alien-like but they’re still treated well and are important characters that help you, with just one being a villain (this is a bit of a spoiler though so not gonna say who, but it’s none of the Magypsies you actually know as Magypsies for most of the game).

And...I don’t remember a scene with nudity...do you mean the scene where one of the Magypsies enables Lucas to use Psi? I guess that could be taken the wrong way, but it could also be seen as something similar to a baptism or something; may just need a bit of editing...

As much as I find this conversation to be one worth having I recommend moving it elsewhere or dropping it altogether as it is off topic and could get pretty political. The last time we had a conversation of this nature it...didn't end well.

 

[TheCJBrine]

As much as I find this conversation to be one worth having I recommend moving it elsewhere or dropping it altogether as it is off topic and could get pretty political. The last time we had a conversation of this nature it...didn't end well.

I suppose so...

Maybe Mother 3 is controversial why people it’s a good videogame

 

[Garteam]

I don't think it's made up, as it seems to be the reason why Phil (a normally talkative character) doesn't have any voice lines in Kingdom Hearts 3. I would agree about it being exaggerated though since other (more story important) characters in Kingdom Hearts 3 were recast because their original voice actors are deceased.

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if Heihachi was revived for some reason in Tekken 8.

To my knowledge, smaller characters tend to be retired once their voice actors pass away, while main characters or major supporting characters are simply recast. Phil? Pretty minor in the grand scheme of Kingdom Hearts 3, so leaving him voiceless isn't an issue. Bulma? One of the most important Dragon Ball characters who is involved in major events of the story and shares the deuteragonist role with Vegeta, recast.

I'm not super familiar with Tekken, but Heihachi is the the main antagonist, major driving force in the series' plot, and serves as the face of the franchise. He's definitely too big to retire.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

To be fair they DID retire Colonel Roy Campbell after his Japanese VO passed away, but I guess in the grand scheme of things he didn’t fit in the overarching story anymore

 

[Wyoming]

Yeah...it's noble to think corporations will retire characters due to their voice actor passing away, but if there's money to be made and the character plays an important role in doing that (& still have a purpose) they won't get rid of them that easily.

Heihachi could also re-use clips from Tekken, or they could edit Incineroar's extra and/or current clips to suit him if they find nobody to do the role for Smash.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Actually a big reason why it took so long for Earthbound to come to VC was because of the licensing issues. Strictly speaking, the distinct mention of "The Beatles" in a dialogue conversation about one of their songs, Yesterday, was a rather large problem and that's not even mentioning the Johnny B. Goode almost complete rip off of a song was in it too.

Both of those things happen in Onett, the first town, now I think that was it for Earthbound and look how long that took. Imagine having to deal with that through an entire, what, 20 hour long RPG? That's why it's taking so long. Plus, I'm sure it's a lot easier to get rights to use The Beatles name and to use Johnny B. Goode than it is to get, oh say, Beat It by Michael ****ing Jackson.

There’s actually a fair deal more than just those 2 in EarthBound, but I won’t list them. You’re welcome to go searching if you want to though.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm pretty certain that these Doom ports are the surprise Pete Hines was talking about and not Smash.

 

[Nquoid]

I suppose so...

Maybe Mother 3 is controversial why people it’s a good videogame

Something can be good AND controversial. We should be willing to engage and acknowledge the flaws in our favourite media without dismissing them because we like them.

So with the Spiris existing on an allegedly Nintendo owned server, do we reckon Hero drops over the weekend or the same Tuesday/Wednesday time frame as Joker?

 

[HyruleHero]

Something can be good AND controversial. We should be willing to engage and acknowledge the flaws in our favourite media without dismissing them because we like them.

So with the Spiris existing on an allegedly Nintendo owned server, do we reckon Hero drops over the weekend or the same Tuesday/Wednesday time frame as Joker?

Probably a safe bet. I imagine we'll see his trailer either tomorrow or Monday and then he'll be out between Tuesday and Thursday.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'm pretty certain that these Doom ports are the surprise Pete Hines was talking about and not Smash.

I mean. Maybe? Who can really say until we see all the fighters?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Probably a safe bet. I imagine we'll see his trailer either tomorrow or Monday and then he'll be out between Tuesday and Thursday.

Ooh! I hope it's tomorrow. I wanna see what makes this character tick. (And also predict how much people are going to hate it for being projectile heavy.)

Oh! And his stage too.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Something can be good AND controversial. We should be willing to engage and acknowledge the flaws in our favourite media without dismissing them because we like them.

So with the Spiris existing on an allegedly Nintendo owned server, do we reckon Hero drops over the weekend or the same Tuesday/Wednesday time frame as Joker?

Honestly I can see how controversy may spark from a few things, it just sucks since it feels like other games get away with stuff that could be controversial too, and no one seems to actually be mad at the game/care about the stuff currently, but oh well.

Anyway, I think Hero, or at least his video, will be here by the 2nd next week at the latest.

 

[Jocario Zero]

Well this took me a while but here it is just like I promised:

My analysis on Heihachi's chances.​

[Putting it in a spoiler tag since it turned out to be very big]

Spoiler: Heihachi Analysis

Things that Heihachi has going for him:

• Tekken is one of Namco's biggest series and probably the biggest fighting game franchise after Street Fighter. Tekken 7 recently surpassed 4 million copies sold which helps to emphasize this.
• Heihachi was briefly considered for SSB4 before they decided on Pac-Man as a Namco rep. Heihachi would later appear as a mii costume.
• The fact that he's the most important character in the series and that Sakurai considered him makes him the true frontrunner for a Tekken rep.
• Namco helped with SSBU so another rep from them makes sense.
• Despite the lack of mainline games on Nintendo systems in recent years, we've gotten games like Tekken Tag Tournament 2 (which even had Nintendo themed costumes) so Nintendo unfamiliarity is not an issue at all.

Now I'll bring up some common arguments used against Heihachi and lend my two cents on whether they actually matter or not:

"We have Ryu as a fighting game rep so there can't be another!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Absolutely not
This is one of the silliest arguments used to downplay Heihachi's inclusion. There is no rule saying we can't get more than one fighting game character and thinking that there is one would be like thinking Cloud is our sole JRPG rep. Ryu's moves and Heihachi's moves are different enough to make Heihachi a completely different fighter than Ryu.

"Heihachi's VA passed away so his character is retired!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Not really
On August 13th 2018, Unsho Ishizuka - the current VA of Heihachi at the time - passed away. His death was very unfortunate as he voiced many other amazing characters aside from Heihachi such as Professor Oak and Joseph Joestar. Many people have said that because of his death, Heihachi is done for in Tekken-related media. This has been recently proven to be false as Heihachi will be appearing as a guest-star in the King of Fighters All-Stars mobile game. What is interesting about this is that all of the characters in KoF All-Stars are fully voiced, meaning that Heihachi will have to be voiced by someone when he is available.

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When I brought this topic up a few days ago, I said that AFAIK all of the KoF All-Stars characters had completely new voice lines. While this is true for most of the characters, others such as Kyo and Iori seem to have their voiceclips reused from KoF XIII. This opens up the possibility of Heihachi's voiceclips being reused from Tekken 7, which would show that Namco is fine with doing the same thing in other games such as Smash. I don't see anything wrong with doing so as it'd be a nice tribute to the late Unsho Ishizuka. Of course there is the issue of Sakurai just throwing away the whole Tekken rep idea since his VA passed, but I'll get to this later. Otherwise he'll have to have a new VA which would be used for Smash.

On a somewhat related note, I'm pretty sure the whole "if a Japanese VA dies, their character dies too" thing is either made up or greatly exaggerated. One of Heihachi's older VA's passed away before Unsho Ishizuka started voicing him, and off the top of my head Hiromi Tsuru (who voiced Bulma in Dragon Ball for over 30 years) got replaced in less than 3 months for a bath cleaning commercial and had a role in the new Broly movie. Maybe I'm wrong on this tradition so if I am please tell me.

"Heihachi dies at the end of Tekken 7, so his character is done for!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Absolutely not
I didn't even think this was a real argument used against Heihachi, but I saw it get brought up in the Lloyd Irving thread. If we based characters chances on whether they are alive or not, then Ganondorf should've never been in Melee since he dies all the time, Marth should've been cut in SSB4 since by the time of Awakening he is already deceased, and Ridley should've never been in Ultimate since he died in Super Metroid (and his clone died in Other M). Also the fact that Heihachi will be appearing in the KoF All-Stars mobile game flat out deconfirms that Heihachi can't appear in spin-offs anymore.

"Sakurai had trouble thinking of a moveset for him in SSB4!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Possibly
A common misconception is that Heihachi was going to be in SSB4 but got scrapped just because Sakurai had trouble creating a moveset for him. This is not true as he was only briefly considered before they went with Pac-Man, who is way more popular and had an easier to make moveset. All Sakurai said about Heihachi is that "implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult." As far as we know they didn't actually work on making a professional moveset for him.

Unlike most fighting games such as Street Fighter that have just normal attacks and specials, Tekken uses a left/right limb system with each button representing one of your limbs. For a grounded 3D fighter like Tekken it works very well, though translating that into Smash seems nearly impossible given that we only have an attack and a special button. Even with Playstation All-stars having 3 attack buttons they didn't even properly implement the limb system into Heihachi's moveset in that game. Of course they could just forget about the limb system altogether, but it's a big part of Tekken that it'd have to be incorporated if they wanted Heihachi to stay true to his character (hence why Sakurai said it'd be difficult to implement his moveset to begin with). I haven't been able to find a fanmade moveset for Heihachi that properly utilizes the limb system, though considering what Sakurai has done in the past I don't think it'd be too impossible.

"Heihachi appears in Pac-Man's taunt!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Possibly
In terms of Heihachi being able to appear at the same time as the Heihachi sprite, the taunt means absolutely nothing. There are a ton of instances of characters appearing multiple times such as Chrom in Robin's FS and Mario in the Piranha Plant victory screen. To say that they wouldn't add Heihachi because there'd be a small pixelated version of him also present during a match is just downright silly.

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However, some may view the Pac-Man Heihachi sprite as a consolation prize to have Heihachi in Smash in some form due to issues in trying to make him playable. In other words the sprite can be viewed as "sorry Heihachi couldn't be playable whether it be due to his VA's recent passing or implementing his moveset, here he is represented in some form." Heihachi wasn't the only new Pac-Man taunt character added as we also got the Katamari Prince, so maybe they just wanted to add some more Namco characters to the Pac-Man taunt. One thing that should be worth noting is that the Heihachi sprite is taken directly from Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and wasn't just made for Smash. I'm not sure what to make of it though I certainly don't see it as a good thing for Heihachi.

"He has to compete with a Tales character!"
Do I think this hurts his chances: Yes
I don't see us getting more than two Namco reps for this season as I think Nintendo is going to get another company represented for one of the remaining slots. So if we get someone from another Namco franchise I think it is over for Heihachi. One of the frontrunners for a Namco rep is a Tales rep, the main candidate being Lloyd Irving who Sakurai said would be the best way to represent the Tales series. Lloyd seems to be a much more popular Smash pick and like Heihachi he also has some past Smash presence in the form of a mii costume in SSB4. He is definitely the biggest hurdle for Heihachi.

So overall while I'm still not too confident on Heihachi making it in (mainly because of the Pac-Man taunt, Tales, and the issues with his moveset) I do think some people are really sleeping on him. If I had to give him a chance % I think I'd give him a 25% chance of happening.

Oh and in the event Heihachi turns out to be a mii costume and this entire post becomes obsolete, it should be remembered that Tekken is one of Namco's biggest series so the chances of us getting a Tekken rep are always good for a Smash game as long as Namco is willing to cooperate.

Very good Analysis. I agree that people kinda sleep on him. Im not that big of Tekken-Fan and only played 2 or 3 games (and if i would like to see a Tekken-character in Smash, i would prefer Asuka Kazama) but Heihachi in Smash would be so cool (+ Street Fighter and Tekken would meet again. Thats always a good thing in my book).

There is one thing i like to add to the VA-Discussion: For the Assist Trophy of Grey Fox they reused audio of Kaneto Shiozawa, his japanese voice actor who passed away in the year 2000. They did this in Brawl and Ultimate. So the death of his voice actor doesn't necessarily stop Heihachi.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I mean. Maybe? Who can really say until we see all the fighters?

You don't have to be certain, I'm just saying I am.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

You don't have to be certain, I'm just saying I am.

What makes you so certain?