Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[StormC]

Since things are little slow in terms of speculation until we get Hero, I’ll ask a question to gauge what people think.

If you were forced to bet real life money on who you think the last two DLC characters are, who would you predict at this current time?

Ryu Hayabusa and Leon Kennedy. Depending on my mood swap Hayabusa for Heihachi.

 

[Leotsune]

Since things are little slow in terms of speculation until we get Hero, I’ll ask a question to gauge what people think.

If you were forced to bet real life money on who you think the last two DLC characters are, who would you predict at this current time?

-> $1 Phoenix Wright + Heihachi.
-> $10 Leon Kennedy + Tales rep.
-> $3 Doom Slayer + Nakoruru.

 

[TheYungLink]

I wish Sakurai didn't say the 5 Fighter's Pass characters wouldn't be Echo Fighters, because it implies the FP characters themselves won't get any. I already see people debating on whether Jill or Leon would be the Resident Evil character when, ideally, it could be both, a la Simon and Richter.

Still hoping for a couple Echo Fighters either included with the pass or sold separately from it, just to squeeze in a last few beloved characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wish Sakurai didn't say the 5 Fighter's Pass characters wouldn't be Echo Fighters, because it implies the FP characters themselves won't get any. I already see people debating on whether Jill or Leon would be the Resident Evil character when, ideally, it could be both, a la Simon and Richter.

Still hoping for a couple Echo Fighters either included with the pass or sold separately from it, just to squeeze in a last few beloved characters.

It just means if we get Echoes, they'll be separate purchases.

It's more because the idea behind the FP appears to be for unique characters who take a lot of time and energy(and money in most/all cases), while Echoes requires way less by default. I'd love some extra Echoes. Kasumi, Octolings, Dixie Kong, just to name a few that could be fun.

 

[LemonBoy65]

I was wondering: When the Hero gets released, what are the chances of us getting more Square Enix content outside of Dragon Quest (spirits, Mii costumes, etc.)? Crossing my fingers for a Crono Mii Swordfighter outfit; unlikey but it would be neat.

 

[Deleted member]

I was wondering: When the Hero gets released, what are the chances of us getting more Square Enix content outside of Dragon Quest (spirits, Mii costumes, etc.)? Crossing my fingers for a Crono Mii Swordfighter outfit; unlikey but it would be neat.

Could see Mii costumes, other content might be difficult.

 

[Idon]

I was wondering: When the Hero gets released, what are the chances of us getting more Square Enix content outside of Dragon Quest (spirits, Mii costumes, etc.)? Crossing my fingers for a Crono Mii Swordfighter outfit; unlikey but it would be neat.

Spirits are a given with how they handled Joker. And I think we'll probably get a few mii costumes like a slime hat and maaaaaybe Geno again.

 

[Will]

and maaaaaybe Geno again.

are we looking to crush the dreams of many today?

 

[Idon]

are we looking to crush the dreams of many today?

The big crush already happened. Any further crushes are only a fraction of that pain.

 

[Will]

The big crush already happened. Any further crushes are only a fraction of that pain.

what do i look like to you, a naruto villain

 

[GoodGrief741]

I was wondering: When the Hero gets released, what are the chances of us getting more Square Enix content outside of Dragon Quest (spirits, Mii costumes, etc.)? Crossing my fingers for a Crono Mii Swordfighter outfit; unlikey but it would be neat.

I think not Spirits, but we're definitely bound to get Costumes. Like you, I'm rooting for Crono, and also Geno if possible (since he won't be playable I at least want that for him).

 

[Impa4Smash]

Since things are little slow in terms of speculation until we get Hero, I’ll ask a question to gauge what people think.

If you were forced to bet real life money on who you think the last two DLC characters are, who would you predict at this current time?

Probably Jill Valentine and Lloyd Irving if I was betting real money. Though I flip flop on Doomguy too

 

[Ornl]

our interpretation of Reggie's quote is not objectively correct, and there's room for debate. Others have already explained that point.

I was saying they're arbitrary and meaningless, as an explanation why nobody cares. The argument being that they're arbitrary and meaningless.

Now, prove that they're not.

It's not about our interpretation, Heihachi is in Sm4sh and in Ultimate, he can't be "new to the series".
11/11 non-Echo third-party Fighters have never been seen in any form or another in Smash Bros before their release. Then, 5/5 upgrades from Sm4sh Cotsume to newcomers (Inkling, Daisy, Chrom, Isabelle, K. Rool) are in the basic game. These are newcomers but these aren't new appearances in Smash. About third-party series, a presence - or past presence - of a second-party or third-party series as any Spirit, Assist Trophee, Item, Mii Costume or Taunt or Final Smash requires permissions. This permission is proven by crediting. A first permission is "new to the series". A renewed permission is no longer "new to the series".
If an interpretation can be "arbitrary", this reasoning is factual. It's therefore not "meaningless". 3/3 of the first Fighter Pass DLC, and 100% non-Echo third-party newcomers are consistent with this reasoning.

There will always be less proofs to qualify what I say of nonsense, by several messages and many likes, than the elements that I share. The stigmatisation of nonsense is therefore unfounded. I think claiming more proofs instead of admitting to having judged nonsense too hastily isn't right.

Now prove that Sakurai has bases decisions of his on any old poll.

No need to prove anything if I didn't say otherwise. It's you who rejected the first idea that Tekken could be inferior at to Street Fighter according to Famitsu readers, rejecting Famitsu and rejecting that I share Famitsu polls. Then you want me to say that Sakurai uses Famitsu polls only to say "No!". There is an insistence to place me in cantilever with affirmations that I didn't say. But the fact is that Heihachi remains inferior to Ryu, both in the magazine in which Sakurai participates and in Ultimate (Heihachi is in a taunt).
Ryu > Heihachi. This is the choice of Sakurai, who officially refused Heihachi as a Fighter in Sm4sh. DLC for Ultimate aren't intended to be less important than DLC for Sm4sh. The ambition is greater ("never saw it coming, unique, different, different level of fun and enjoyment for the player..."). And probably greater than to envy Heihachi from the Smash-Bros-like Playstation all-Stars Battle Royale.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

View attachment 232432

Agonyyyyyyyyyy so much greater than yoooooooooours! When she'd be with you if only there were dooooooooooors!

It's not about our interpretation, Heihachi is in Sm4sh and in Ultimate, he can't be "new to the series".
11/11 non-Echo third-party Fighters have never been seen in any form or another in Smash Bros before their release. Then, 5/5 upgrades from Sm4sh Cotsume to newcomers (Inkling, Daisy, Chrom, Isabelle, K. Rool) are in the basic game. These are newcomers but these aren't new appearances in Smash. About third-party series, a presence - or past presence - of a second-party or third-party series as any Spirit, Assist Trophee, Item, Mii Costume or Taunt or Final Smash requires permissions. This permission is proven by crediting. A first permission is "new to the series". A renewed permission is no longer "new to the series".
If an interpretation can be "arbitrary", this reasoning is factual. It's therefore not "meaningless". 3/3 of the first Fighter Pass DLC, and 100% non-Echo third-party newcomers are consistent with this reasoning.

The issue with your argument is not your logic, it's that you're basing your argument off of Reggie's statement of characters being "new to the series" when no one really knows what he meant by that. If he means that the series's haven't appeared in Super Smash Bros. in any capacity, then you are 100% correct and we won't be getting Lloyd or Heihachi. If it just meant that the DLC characters will be newcomers then the statement is completely meaningless because all of the veterans are on the roster; of course all of the DLC characters will be newcomers. Until then it's not something we can put much stock into.

There will always be less proofs to qualify what I say of nonsense, by several messages and many likes, than the elements that I share. The stigmatisation of nonsense is therefore unfounded. I think claiming more proofs instead of admitting to having judged nonsense too hastily isn't right.

This reads like a research paper. lol. Dunno what the first sentence says but I think the rest of it basically says "instead of asking me for more proof you should recognize that you wrote off my argument too soon".

 

[osby]

Ryu > Heihachi. This is the choice of Sakurai, who officially refused Heihachi as a Fighter in Sm4sh. DLC for Ultimate aren't intended to be less important than DLC for Sm4sh. The ambition is greater ("never saw it coming, unique, different, different level of fun and enjoyment for the player..."). And probably greater than to envy Heihachi from the Smash-Bros-like Playstation all-Stars Battle Royale.

There's no reason we can't have both.

Sakurai also rejected PAC-MAN, Miis, Ridley and Villager before, all of them are playable in Ultimate.

Haihachi not being unique enough is not a great argument. We just got an "anime swordsman" and "cereal mascot". Not to mention Tekken outsells both Banjo-Kazooie and Persona. He's not a pick without his merits.

Also, just because a character appeared in a crossover fighting game before doesn't mean they can't join to Smash. Look at Simon or Mega Man.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I think not Spirits, but we're definitely bound to get Costumes. Like you, I'm rooting for Crono, and also Geno if possible (since he won't be playable I at least want that for him).

Nah didn't Sakurai say every one of the FP fighters will come with DLC spirits?

It's not about our interpretation, Heihachi is in Sm4sh and in Ultimate, he can't be "new to the series".
11/11 non-Echo third-party Fighters have never been seen in any form or another in Smash Bros before their release.

Incorrect! Banjo Kazooie and Final Fantasy have mention within Brawl's chronicle, so technically that counts!
Also something about a Fire Emblem Shin Megami Tensei character or something that got a spirit in the base game...

I wish Sakurai didn't say the 5 Fighter's Pass characters wouldn't be Echo Fighters, because it implies the FP characters themselves won't get any. I already see people debating on whether Jill or Leon would be the Resident Evil character when, ideally, it could be both, a la Simon and Richter.

Still hoping for a couple Echo Fighters either included with the pass or sold separately from it, just to squeeze in a last few beloved characters.

I have to wonder if you could squeeze in Dixie Kong as one of those or if it wouldn't do her justice like Delzethin said. Maybe the fans would be up for such a compromise but IDK. I mean Ken's actually listed on SmashWiki as a semi-clone with all his differences, even if some of those came about to his differences within the original games. But there's technically a precedent for that level of clone for echo fighters, even if they're 3rd party.

So on that note, Tails for Sonic's echo!!

 

[3BitSaurus]

It's not about our interpretation, Heihachi is in Sm4sh and in Ultimate, he can't be "new to the series".
11/11 non-Echo third-party Fighters have never been seen in any form or another in Smash Bros before their release. Then, 5/5 upgrades from Sm4sh Cotsume to newcomers (Inkling, Daisy, Chrom, Isabelle, K. Rool) are in the basic game. These are newcomers but these aren't new appearances in Smash. About third-party series, a presence - or past presence - of a second-party or third-party series as any Spirit, Assist Trophee, Item, Mii Costume or Taunt or Final Smash requires permissions. This permission is proven by crediting. A first permission is "new to the series". A renewed permission is no longer "new to the series".
If an interpretation can be "arbitrary", this reasoning is factual. It's therefore not "meaningless". 3/3 of the first Fighter Pass DLC, and 100% non-Echo third-party newcomers are consistent with this reasoning.

There will always be less proofs to qualify what I say of nonsense, by several messages and many likes, than the elements that I share. The stigmatisation of nonsense is therefore unfounded. I think claiming more proofs instead of admitting to having judged nonsense too hastily isn't right.

No need to prove anything if I didn't say otherwise. It's you who rejected the first idea that Tekken could be inferior at to Street Fighter according to Famitsu readers, rejecting Famitsu and rejecting that I share Famitsu polls. Then you want me to say that Sakurai uses Famitsu polls only to say "No!". There is an insistence to place me in cantilever with affirmations that I didn't say. But the fact is that Heihachi remains inferior to Ryu, both in the magazine in which Sakurai participates and in Ultimate (Heihachi is in a taunt).
Ryu > Heihachi. This is the choice of Sakurai, who officially refused Heihachi as a Fighter in Sm4sh. DLC for Ultimate aren't intended to be less important than DLC for Sm4sh. The ambition is greater ("never saw it coming, unique, different, different level of fun and enjoyment for the player..."). And probably greater than to envy Heihachi from the Smash-Bros-like Playstation all-Stars Battle Royale.

At this point, I just have to ask... what characters do you think are possible?

Because if we go by the standards and "rules" you talked about here and in the RTC thread over the past few weeks... then everyone is dead. There's literally no one left.

 

[RileyXY1]

Reggie's statement mean different things to different people. So, it's understandable that people have different interpretations of what "characters new to the series" means.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Nah didn't Sakurai say every one of the FP fighters will come with DLC spirits?

Yeah, but Hero is bound to come with only DQ Spirits.

But the fact is that Heihachi remains inferior to Ryu

Prove Sakurai thinks that. For the love of God man, give proof of something!

'Well Heihachi is inferior to Ryu because he isn't in Ultimate'. Then every character was "inferior" before being added, so that makes your point moot.

 

[yeet123]

The final two fighters are Heihachi and Crash.

Echo Pass is Dixie Kong, Octoling, Black Shadow, Jeanne, and Proto Man.

Nintendo Pass is Waluigi, Rex, Bandana Dee, Porky, and Toad.

 

[IsmaR]

You've posted the same exact thing 3 separate times now. I think we get the point.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I don’t even think it’s an actual leak anymore, if it were he would have shown proof like a Ken style screenshot

 

[RileyXY1]

I don’t even think it’s an actual leak anymore, if it were he would have shown proof like a Ken style screenshot

Yeah. It's pretty much a wishlist at this point, albeit one that he keeps spamming everywhere.

 

[Ornl]

Prove Sakurai thinks that. For the love of God man, give proof of something!

It's simple: non-Echo third-party Fighters are particularly unique and different:
According to Sakurai, 2015, it’s important to have something only that character can do. Every character needs to have a reason to be in. The decision takes into account if there is no conflict with other characters."No matter how suited a character may be to fighting, if I cannot meaningfully distinguish them from other characters, or create fun unique characteristics of the characters, then that’s the end for them."
So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time. Sakurai chose Ryu and refused Heihachi. Then Heihachi became a taunt sprite. Ryu > Heihachi.

 

[3BitSaurus]

It's simple: non-Echo third-party Fighters are particularly unique and different:
According to Sakurai, 2015, it’s important to have something only that character can do. Every character needs to have a reason to be in. The decision takes into account if there is no conflict with other characters."No matter how suited a character may be to fighting, if I cannot meaningfully distinguish them from other characters, or create fun unique characteristics of the characters, then that’s the end for them."
So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time. Sakurai chose Ryu and refused Heihachi. Then Heihachi became a taunt sprite. Ryu > Heihachi.

This is incorrect. Heihachi was considered for the base game in Smash 4, before Ryu, even. But Sakurai found him hard to implement, and that's how we got Pac-Man instead.

It's in this interview right here.

Besides, saying that they can't be distinguished from one another only makes sense if you've never played the games. The way Tekken and Street Fighter play is very, very different.

 

[Ornl]

This is incorrect. Heihachi was considered for the base game in Smash 4, before Ryu, even. But Sakurai found him hard to implement, and that's how we got Pac-Man instead.

It's in this interview right here.

Besides, saying that they can't be distinguished from one another only makes sense if you've never played the games. The way Tekken and Street Fighter play is very, very different.

Sakurai chose Ryu and refused Heihachi. Or Sakurai refused Heihachi then chose Ryu. It's the same result -__-

 

[3BitSaurus]

Sakurai chose Ryu and refused Heihachi. Or Sakurai refused Heihachi then chose Ryu. It's the same result -__-

There's no causal relation between the two choices, though. Sakurai didn't choose Ryu because he rejected Heihachi or vice-versa.

Sakurai rejected Heihachi because he found it hard to implement something closer to Tekken's 3D limb-based system in Smash. Then, later on, he went for Ryu, probably because of how iconic he is, as well as his series. There is nothing else standing between these two characters being together and no relation between these two facts.

It was what you implied, when you said "So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time", wasn't it?

 

[RileyXY1]

There's no causal relation between the two choices, though.

It was what you implied, when you said "So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time", wasn't it?

Yeah. Had Sakurai found a way to port over Tekken's mechanics into Smash, we could have most likely seen Ruy and Heihachi playable together.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

It's simple: non-Echo third-party Fighters are particularly unique and different:
According to Sakurai, 2015, it’s important to have something only that character can do. Every character needs to have a reason to be in. The decision takes into account if there is no conflict with other characters."No matter how suited a character may be to fighting, if I cannot meaningfully distinguish them from other characters, or create fun unique characteristics of the characters, then that’s the end for them."
So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time. Sakurai chose Ryu and refused Heihachi. Then Heihachi became a taunt sprite. Ryu > Heihachi.

That is not even correct, Heihachi was going to be in the base game but because he was difficult to implement into smash bros the idea was drop.(and this was before Ryu was considered).

 

[GoodGrief741]

It's simple: non-Echo third-party Fighters are particularly unique and different:
According to Sakurai, 2015, it’s important to have something only that character can do. Every character needs to have a reason to be in. The decision takes into account if there is no conflict with other characters."No matter how suited a character may be to fighting, if I cannot meaningfully distinguish them from other characters, or create fun unique characteristics of the characters, then that’s the end for them."
So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time. Sakurai chose Ryu and refused Heihachi. Then Heihachi became a taunt sprite. Ryu > Heihachi.

Prove that Ryu and Heihachi couldn't have appeared at the same time. Because as far as we know, they could have. There is very little overlap between Ryu and Heihachi's abilities.

 

[Ornl]

It was what you implied, when you said "So in Sm4sh, it couldn't have both Ryu and Heihachi appear at the same time", wasn't it?

That is not even correct, Heihachi was going to be in the base game but because he was difficult to implement into smash bros the idea was drop.(and this was before Ryu was considered).

Ryu arrived as 2nd Capcom rep. Heihachi could have arrived as 2sd Bamco rep. But no, Sakurai chose Ryu, and rejected Heihachi because he didn't reconsider him.

Prove that Ryu and Heihachi couldn't have appeared at the same time. Because as far as we know, they could have. There is very little overlap between Ryu and Heihachi's abilities.

Ryu/Heihachi overlap in Smash/PlayStation All-Stars (Smash-like).
Ryu trailer / Heihachi trailer.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Ryu arrived as 2sd Capcom rep. Heihachi could have arrived as 2sd Bamco rep. But no, Sakurai chose Ryu, and rejected Heihachi because he didn't reconsider him.

do you have actually proof about Sakurai rejected heihachi for dlc.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Ryu arrived as 2sd Capcom rep. Heihachi could have arrived as 2sd Bamco rep. But no, Sakurai chose Ryu, and rejected Heihachi because he didn't reconsider him.

But there’s no proof Ryu was chosen over him. He didn’t add Heihachi because he couldn’t figure out how to get his mechanics to fit into Smash at the time, he said nothing about choosing Ryu over him and we shouldn’t just put words in his mouth. He could reconsider Heihachi this time around and if he doesn’t, then we probably won’t know, but it’s very unlikely Ryu will have anything to do with it; that’s also if Heihachi happens to be a character Nintendo had in mind.

And PlayStation All-stars is an old game, isn’t it? Why does this matter? I really doubt Namco and Nintendo care. I guess Shovel Knight shouldn’t be an AT since he’s playable in Brawlhalla.

 

[Nquoid]

Just going to put this out there. The quote where people say there are no other strong Namco Bandai reps doesn't actually say that.

The exact quote is:

Interviewer: Between Bandai and Namco, were there any other strong candidates for inclusion as a fighter?

Sakurai: There were none. We basically thought of all the characters at the start of development. We decided on characters we knew we could make. However, there were a few in consideration, such as Heihachi from “Tekken.”

What is being said is that "No Namco Bandai rep was selected OVER Pac-Man". Considering we have never had a base game with more than 1 unique fighter from a single company, this is basically Sakurai saying that this was the obvious choice for a Bamco rep. It DOES NOT mean that there are no other characters from Bamco that could be in Smash, just that none of them were as strong a contender as Pac-Man (duh),

The only thing against Heihachi is the difficulty in translating his moveset into Smash. Nothing else. Capcom reps don't play against him. Other characters from fighting games don't play against him. And in Smash Ultimate, that quote doesn't play against him.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Ryu arrived as 2sd Capcom rep. Heihachi could have arrived as 2sd Bamco rep. But no, Sakurai chose Ryu, and rejected Heihachi because he didn't reconsider him.

Ryu/Heihachi overlap as Smash/PlayStation All-Stars (Smash-like).

None of this makes sense. I'm sorry, but at this point, I have no other way of saying this.

The reason Sakurai didn't reconsider Heihachi was because of gameplay. Why would a game director go back to reconsider something he thought he wouldn't be able to make properly? That's not how game development works.

The whole "2nd rep" thing is not a relation between the two. These are two different companies. The fact that he "could have arrived as another Namco character" doesn't matter to this discussion. At all. If that was the case, then "why didn't we get Snake back during Smash 4"? It's completely irrelevant to this development cycle. New game, new rules.

PSASBR does not interfere into Smash development unless Sakurai himself says so. Until then, PSASBR is just an old game - a flop, at that, and it doesn't factor into who Sakurai thinks will be good for Smash or not.

... I'm done with this. I feel like the delivery guy in the Boneless Pizza video. This entire time, I've tried to explain to you that no, you can't get your pizza boneless. I've literally shown you proof of what I'm saying, coming from Sakurai himself. If you wanna ignore it... be my guest, I suppose.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I don’t think Sakurai ever seriously considered adding Heihachi over Pac-Man.

Between Bandai and Namco, were there any other strong candidates for inclusion as a fighter?
Sakurai: There were none. We basically thought of all the characters at the start of development. We decided on characters we knew we could make. However, there were a few in consideration, such as Heihachi from “Tekken.”
Interviewer: Heihachi!
Sakurai: That’s right. However, implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult…

Right off the bat Sakurai says there were NOT any STRONG candidates for inclusion (in relation to Bandai Namco characters). He decided on Pac-Man from the start, and probably only briefly considered characters like Heihachi due to their iconic status, but never saw him as a strong candidate. Sakurai wasn’t trying to say that Heihachi being hard to implement prevented his inclusion; it seemed more like an observation than anything. He said it WOULD be difficult, implying that he didn’t even attempt to try to make it work.

Sakurai also said Ridley would be impossible, but he would go on to add him in a later game anyway. If Sakurai really wanted to include Heihachi into Smash he would make it work. Also there is no reason to think Ryu wasn’t considered in a similar manner as Heihachi, with Megaman taking priority and Ryu being briefly considered (and unlike Heihachi being added as DLC). This very well could have been the case, and Sakurai just stayed quiet about it.

Also being considered isn’t some badge of honor, Sakurai has talked about many characters who were momentarily considered and quickly dismissed, it doesn’t always mean they have a great chance of appearing in the future.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Ryu/Heihachi overlap as Smash/PlayStation All-Stars (Smash-like).

I know you're French so this might just be an error in translation, but this sentence makes no sense and has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

To clarify, when I talked about overlap, I meant gameplay overlap. Ryu and Heihachi play nothing alike and just because they're both from fighting games doesn't mean that Heihachi doesn't have 'something only he can do'. I don't know why you replied with a random statement about PSASBR when we were talking about gameplay, but I guess those are the leaps of logic required to make the arguments you're making.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

 

[3BitSaurus]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

Possibly. I'm banking on Jill Valentine - she seems the most likely one in that regard.

 

[GoodGrief741]

geting off-topic from the Heihaci debate.
Do you think we're going to get a female character(beside Kazooie) in the fighters pass.

No. Sorry, but the only one I think has any chance is Jill Valentine and she's behind Leon and Phoenix in my book (I could see her getting in over Leon, or even alongside him, but I think Leon has the better shot). Aside from her, who is there? Every character I can think of has another character that dwarfs her chances.