Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, got a character, stage, remixes and spirits.

I wouldn't call that minor.

Banjo is pretty much the only exception. And it required more than "yay there could be a Microsoft copyright on the title screen" for it to be that exception.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Admittedly stuff like Mii costumes likely requires far less communication and complex negotiation for the Smash team than a full fledged character (plus stage and songs) does.

I do think one more Western character had a decent chance, especially given the big PR Banjo's inclusion received.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Banjo is pretty much the only exception. And it required more than "yay there could be a Microsoft copyright on the title screen" for it to be that exception.

0 things to 1 thing, is a pretty big step.

Just saying.

Western IPs are no longer "impossible."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spirits are fairly minor, but Mii Costumes are pretty big too. They're playable variations on a character, and require a lot of work as well. As well as the same amount of licensing for an AT(albeit, Spirits too technically) generally.

Western stuff rarely has gotten just Spirits too. It's usually been AT's, Mii Costumes, or an outright character. Western is definitely not minor. Not just anyone gets in as an AT. Spirits are kind of like the only minor thing since it's just a snapshot and even that still requires them to give them stats, a gameplay function, and often a special battle that has its own particular battle stats alone.

...Trophies were about the only thing that were "minor". Stickers had gameplay functions and were also a lot more notable due to that alone.

 

[SirCamp]

No, Natsume and Marvelous ends their partnership in 2015 and that why there is a Harvest Moon vs Story of Seasons. Natsume owns the brand Harvest Moon and Marvelous owns the brand Story of Seasons.

Edit: To clarity, Story of Seasons is the original Harvest Moon while the current Harvest Moon is something else.

Right... That's exactly the point I was making because I figured you were referencing Harvest Moon (no one would bring up Natsume otherwise). Except that Marvelous is the company that owns Story of Seasons (like you said the original) and Natsume owns the knockoff (along with like... Reel Big Fishing??). So given that, I'm not sure why you would mention Natsume rather than Marvelous? Though admittedly Natsume has a fine relationship with Nintendo as far as I can tell, so does Marvelous. And Marvelous actually has relevant games unlike Natsume.

Point being if you're mentioning the company because you think Story of Seasons or the original Harvest Moon series could or should be repped, you should be talking about Marvelous. If you're talking about companies that have relevant titles to Nintendo, you should also still be talking about Marvelous (at least over Natsume).

 

[Guynamednelson]

...Trophies were about the only thing that were "minor". Stickers had gameplay functions and were also a lot more notable due to that alone.

To me, it's not just the majority of players mainly focusing on fighters that makes everything else "minor representation", but the fact that fighters require much more work than anything else. ATs just have a few moves, cameos have just as many if not fewer animations, costumes don't require any new animations...

 

[A.G.L.]

Fortune Street was like wii era I believe? Idk maybe that is a long time ago.
That aside idk, I guess how relatively close they are up in the air. Depends on how you look at it too.
Sure they’ve helped develop some games, or was allowed to use some of their Ips at one point, but both studios don’t seem to support the switch as much as the other consoles.

On a side note, I do believe the best way for Nintendo to compete with Sony and Microsoft is to offer developers something that they can’t. A chance to work with Nintendo properties. Could be why we are seeing this happen more often now.

I just have This feeling developers are hesitant to want to work with the switch because it probably takes too much additional work to get their games to port over when your base line is Sony and Microsoft. It’s just the odd man out.

Unfortunately the ps5 and XbsX is going to place an even wider gap between the switch hardware so who knows, we may see some more unique partnerships down the road.

Agree the Switch is a problematic system which is why Square is reluctant to work with it as much. Especially since most of Square's bigger games need more powerful systems to handle them (FF7 Remake, FF15, Tomb Raider etc). That said I think we will see moving forward they will take the approach Bandai Namco has. They move some of their popular games to the Switch, work with Nintendo to create their own games, and move their bigger more demanding games to Xbox and Playstation.

 

[SnowClaws]

Right... That's exactly the point I was making because I figured you were referencing Harvest Moon (no one would bring up Natsume otherwise). Except that Marvelous is the company that owns Story of Seasons (like you said the original) and Natsume owns the knockoff (along with like... Reel Big Fishing??). So given that, I'm not sure why you would mention Natsume rather than Marvelous? Though admittedly Natsume has a fine relationship with Nintendo as far as I can tell, so does Marvelous. And Marvelous actually has relevant games unlike Natsume.

Point being if you're mentioning the company because you think Story of Seasons or the original Harvest Moon series could or should be repped, you should be talking about Marvelous. If you're talking about companies that have relevant titles to Nintendo, you should also still be talking about Marvelous (at least over Natsume).

The question was about who Nintendo can "partner with" not who has the "relevant titles". Someone else who reply to the question of the comment has already mention Marvelous, so I decides to reply with Natsume since that company isn't a part of Marvelous and they owns the Harvest Moon brand. Marvelous is a obvious answer, but I went with the less likely answer, so people are aware of this company presence. Beside there are people who grows up with Harvest Moon with the Natsume label before the change to the current Harvest Moon, Story of Seasons.

 

[MooMew64]

I'd say Banjo being a fighter, multiple western IPs recieving content as spirits and music, and Sans, Cuphead, and Vault Boy being Mii costumes prove that being western isn't that big of a deal.

People put weird rules and limitations on things. At the end of the day, Nintendo's gonna get who they want.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what was the Japanese reaction to Vault boy in Smash. Does Fallout have a following in Japan? Because I know that Banjo, Undertale and Cuphead where pretty successful in Japan before joining Smash so I'm curious to hear if that was the case of Fallout too.

Edit: I also know that Assassin's creed is relatively popular in Japan. For know it seems that western third party are alright if they're known in Japan at least a bit, but maybe Fallout broke that "rules" ( I don't really like using the word rules in that context but for lack of better words I'm keeping it like that).

 

[SpectreJordan]

Yeah, in minor ways.

Mii costumes are a pretty big deal for Sakurai & the Smash team. It seems like if it’s involved with the gameplay then it’s valued representation to the Smash team.

Sakurai had more to say about the Sans costume than any of the Japanese Mii costumes. Undertale also has more Smash remixes than Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest Lmao

 

[Dinoman96]

To be honest, I wonder how much of the western Mii costumes/spirits were really more based on requests from their parent companies.

For example, the creators of Cuphead stated that they wanted to see Cuphead in Smash last year. Obviously the Cuphead outfit and spirits were the result of them going up to Nintendo and asking them about it.

Likewise, I'm sure we got the Warframe spirits because Digital Extremes probably went up to Nintendo and requested to have Warframe represented in Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To me, it's not just the majority of players mainly focusing on fighters that makes everything else "minor representation", but the fact that fighters require much more work than anything else. ATs just have a few moves, cameos have just as many if not fewer animations, costumes don't require any new animations...

AT's require a lot of work too. A lot more than Trophies, Stickers, or Spirits. In fact, some have a huge amount of work put into them. Alucard, Bomberman, Spring Man are examples of rather robust AT's.

That's rather large representation, all things considered. They need animations, hitboxes, often hurtboxes, and they only have simply less than a typical character other than costumes. That's hardly "minor". Trophies are the most minor due to less gameplay stuff and they still have to translate into multiple different languages. All of those small things take a lot of work. In fact, music is the smallest amount of work, with only licensing require a lot.

Calling 'em minor is way downplaying the huge amount of work these things overall take. Summon characters are pretty difficult to overall make work right(there's going to be smaller ones like Goldeen who take less work than some like Meowth, obviously, but one is an attack AT while the other does no damage), and both have a lot of unique animations to take into account too. Don't forget that even characters have had glitches related to AT's, as well as the fact AT's have hitboxes that can clash with a character, and are affected by things like Counter moves. This is intentional. They're just NPC's with overall less but still major work done. There's no world where AT's are "small" by any means.

 

[Perkilator]

AT's require a lot of work too. A lot more than Trophies, Stickers, or Spirits. In fact, some have a huge amount of work put into them. Alucard, Bomberman, Spring Man are examples of rather robust AT's.

That's rather large representation, all things considered. They need animations, hitboxes, often hurtboxes, and they only have simply less than a typical character other than costumes. That's hardly "minor". Trophies are the most minor due to less gameplay stuff and they still have to translate into multiple different languages. All of those small things take a lot of work. In fact, music is the smallest amount of work, with only licensing require a lot.

Calling 'em minor is way downplaying the huge amount of work these things overall take. Summon characters are pretty difficult to overall make work right(there's going to be smaller ones like Goldeen who take less work than some like Meowth, obviously, but one is an attack AT while the other does no damage), and both have a lot of unique animations to take into account too. Don't forget that even characters have had glitches related to AT's, as well as the fact AT's have hitboxes that can clash with a character, and are affected by things like Counter moves. This is intentional. They're just NPC's with overall less but still major work done. There's no world where AT's are "small" by any means.

This right here is exactly why I don't want AT's playable in the same game where they're AT's. Regardless of which one gets promoted, it's better to wait for the next game to promote them at all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This right here is exactly why I don't want AT's playable in the same game where they're AT's. Regardless of which one gets promoted, it's better to wait for the next game to promote them at all.

Eh, I'd say it just means we have two forms of characters with awesome work done.

But fair enough.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Good chance Forest Maze would be Geno's stage if anything.

I would take Geno if it meant we’d get Bowser’s Castle

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah, wait until the next game that won't come out years from now and will more than likely have a smaller roster than Ultimate.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's rather large representation, all things considered. They need animations, hitboxes, often hurtboxes, and they only have simply less than a typical character other than costumes. That's hardly "minor". Trophies are the most minor due to less gameplay stuff and they still have to translate into multiple different languages. All of those small things take a lot of work. In fact, music is the smallest amount of work, with only licensing require a lot.

Calling 'em minor is way downplaying the huge amount of work these things overall take

This right here is exactly why I don't want AT's playable in the same game where they're AT's. Regardless of which one gets promoted, it's better to wait for the next game to promote them at all.

Yes, it is work, but it's still much less work than a fighter. You can't seriously believe that less than 6 moves take just as much work as more than 20.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, it is work, but it's still much less work than a fighter. You can't seriously believe that less than 6 moves take just as much work as more than 20.

That's not what anybody said.

It's still pretty huge representation and a lot of work.

It's a big deal in itself and has been treated big by Sakurai too for a good reason. He treats them like Guests as well, and a pretty important part of Smash. There's a reason for that overall. And that's because he doesn't view things like AT's as some "insult" to characters like many fans do. He treats them all as something special overall to Smash. All represent is important in its own way. AT's and Mii Costumes are the second biggest thing next to Playable characters, and they're overall fairly big. One taking more work than another doesn't make one magically unimportant. Because they're still pretty important. Otherwise we'd literally have no trophies/stickers/spirits/AT's, and only Stages/Music/Playable Characters(and maybe bosses) if those roles weren't highly important to representing stuff. Shovel Knight getting an AT is a huge deal for Indies, which already were treated too often as lesser games for some silly reason.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That's not what anybody said.

It's still pretty huge representation and a lot of work.

It's a big deal in itself and has been treated big by Sakurai too for a good reason. He treats them like Guests as well, and a pretty important part of Smash. There's a reason for that overall.

Yes, but I still feel like people heavily exaggerate the work put into ATs. I don't think any of them really feel like fighters like some people say due to their extremely limited AI and movesets. Plus, wouldn't it actually be more work to disable Alucard's model in the Wii Fit mirror instead of disabling the AT altogether?

The one AT I feel is the closest to truly being a fighter is Zero, and even then it looks like they used similar Cloud/Roy moves to help with development. And anti-AT promo people are worried about THAT "precious hard work" going to waste?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, but I still feel like people heavily exaggerate the work put into ATs. I don't think any of them really feel like fighters like some people say due to their extremely limited AI and movesets. Plus, wouldn't it actually be more work to disable Alucard's model in the Wii Fit mirror instead of disabling the AT altogether?

They're not remotely exaggerating.

You're vastly underexaggerating the work needed to make them work in every situation. Do you know how easily one wrong bit of code can break a game? It's not "easy" to do them. They interact with stage elements very often and have specific rules in their abilities. Citing Alucard's disabling as the brunt of the work is just misinformed. That's the only "easy" thing about an AT, that they can be disabled with a tiny line of code. You know what isn't easy? Every animation(of which there's quite a few of), every single specific attack they can do, their hitboxes and often hurtboxes, technically any voice work(not just hiring voice actors, but they have to make sure the voices match up with each animation), and a lot of balancing of each one in gameplay so they don't break the game or are too overpowered/underpowered. And let's be real, the last thing they don't do that well. That's a pretty major job too. Especially when many were made outright from scratch.

I have yet to see any "minor" stuff from AT's, mainly because they're still a huge amount of work. Frankly, Characters(except Echoes) are a colossal amount of work in comparison. Echoes are much closer to AT's, and they still take a lot more(especially with new animations like Chrom, who blatantly took a lot more work than someone like Daisy).

 

[Guynamednelson]

of which there's quite a few of

Yeah, a few. Because they have much less work put into them than fighters.

every single specific attack they can do, their hitboxes and often hurtboxes

Which they don't put as much work into as fighters, not just because of their tiny movesets, but because random items don't need to be as balanced as fighters, or are balanced instead by RNG favoring certain items over others.

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like there was some talk about Koei-Tecmo earlier, and it really raises an eyebrow when you look at their status in regards to Smash. Fatal Frame is the only series from them in the Base Game, and while Byleth isn't owned by them, Koei-Tecmo were apparently credited for making the trailer. They don't have any DLC Mii Costumes in Smash whereas Ubisoft, Bethesda, Toby Fox, and Studio MDHR do, and neither has there been a KT series that got a spirit event like Arc System Works and whoever develops the Warframe series do currently (though I will say I do believe there will be an ASW rep in Smash). Will they get a character in Smash? Did Nintendo skip out on their franchises for a potential inclusion? We won't know until either KT content comes to Smash or Vol 2 ends without it.

Also because I brought up ASW, I think it's highly likely there will be a Kunio Mii Brawler Costume. Maybe it'll come if Billy and Jimmy from Double Dragon get a spot in Vol 2.

 

[Opossum]

This right here is exactly why I don't want AT's playable in the same game where they're AT's. Regardless of which one gets promoted, it's better to wait for the next game to promote them at all.

I'm the total opposite. Why gamble on one of your favorites MAYBE being included six years from now (at the earliest) when you can get them NOW instead? Especially when there's a good chance some of my favorites that are currently here won't be there in the inevitable sub-sixty character Smash 6?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm the total opposite. Why gamble on one of your favorites MAYBE being included six years from now (at the earliest) when you can get them NOW instead? Especially when there's a good chance some of my favorites that are currently here won't be there in the inevitable sub-sixty character Smash 6?

Too many people forget how long it'll be before the next Smash. Just like they forget that the only possible way one could think ATs have just as much work put into them as fighters is if you only press A during fights to pick up items.

 

[SharkLord]

I'm the total opposite. Why gamble on one of your favorites MAYBE being included six years from now (at the earliest) when you can get them NOW instead? Especially when there's a good chance some of my favorites that are currently here won't be there in the inevitable sub-sixty character Smash 6?

I don't see the logic in telling someone to wait until next game for their favorites. That just comes off as unnecessarily rude and dismissive, like you're going "Oh, your opinion doesn't matter, moving on." What's the point in that?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't see the logic in telling someone to wait until next game for their favorites. That just comes off as unnecessarily rude and dismissive, like you're going "Oh, your opinion doesn't matter, moving on." What's the point in that?

An obsession with purity and consistency that is restricted to this community.

Just look at the comments on this trailer. No one's whining or even bringing up that 17 was already an assist. **** it, at some point I should've posted an image of Android 17 accompanied by "Share to scare a Smash player. No, not because of the Luminary".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I understand not thinking a character who is an AT has a chance until next game.

But to say people shouldn't want ATs promoted now seems.... odd.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Yeah, wait until the next game that won't come out years from now and will more than likely have a smaller roster than Ultimate.

I'm the total opposite. Why gamble on one of your favorites MAYBE being included six years from now (at the earliest) when you can get them NOW instead? Especially when there's a good chance some of my favorites that are currently here won't be there in the inevitable sub-sixty character Smash 6?

I don't see the logic in telling someone to wait until next game for their favorites. That just comes off as unnecessarily rude and dismissive, like you're going "Oh, your opinion doesn't matter, moving on." What's the point in that?

At some point, this question really needs to be asked: How many times do supporters of certain fan favorites have to be told "wait until the next game" before the character is eventually included or said supporters just give up entirely?

 

[Guynamednelson]

At some point, this question really needs to be asked: How many times do supporters of certain fan favorites have to be told "wait until the next game" before the character is eventually included or said supporters just give up entirely?

I'm starting to wonder if "they could be in the next game!" has some darker intentions. Like you're actually saying "STFU about this character, I don't want to pay for them."

Even though clearly they care about what kinds of characters you'd prefer to pay for. Isn't that right, Byleth?

 

[Perkilator]

I'm starting to wonder if "they could be in the next game!" has some darker intentions. Like you're actually saying "STFU about this character, I don't want to pay for them."

Even though clearly they care about what kinds of characters you'd prefer to pay for. Isn't that right, Byleth?

What? Not me at all. All I'm saying is, there's always future games.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What? Not me at all. All I'm saying is, there's always future games.

You may not be directly saying STFU, but your refusal to listen to anything that isn't "I must submit to this AT and its limited moveset, low-poly model, and the fact that I wouldn't even get to see it most of the time" is indirectly saying it.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

What? Not me at all. All I'm saying is, there's always future games.

Yes, there's always future games... which, as has been stated, won't be coming for at least several years from now, and even then the chances of *insert fan-favorite Assist Trophy character* becoming playable still aren't guaranteed.

 

[SharkLord]

At some point, this question really needs to be asked: How many times do supporters of certain fan favorites have to be told "wait until the next game" before the character is eventually included or said supporters just give up entirely?

With a fanbase as unflinching and stubborn as this one, built around the biggest video game crossover in history (So far)? Probably until Ultimate's life cycle ends. Everyone will be feeling pretty down because the hype train has stopped, and even if another Smash game comes around, it'll be hard to top Ultimate in terms of sheer scale, even with a tighter, more concise roster.

What? Not me at all. All I'm saying is, there's always future games.

But future games are unlikely to be at the same scale as Ultimate. If Assist Trophies are the one group that isn't available for the hype train, it's just a kick in the teeth for their fans. I say let everyone have their chance until they get Mii'd or Spirited in new post-launch content; Everyone in the base game or not represented at all is up for grabs.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Banjo is pretty much the only exception. And it required more than "yay there could be a Microsoft copyright on the title screen" for it to be that exception.

I mean...

Banjo might be the only exception, RIGHT NOW. But the fact that Nintendo saw the outpouring of support for this character that was owned by a console competitor and still added them in is a HUGE sign that they’re very open to working with Western companies. And yeah you could say that the support from fans and the recent cooperation of Microsoft was integral to what got Nintendo to consider Banjo but at what point do we draw that line? If fan support and company cooperation is all we need what makes that any different than Doom Slayer and Crash? Banjo was MORE requested, yeah, but saying they’re going to stop there because they got the most requested character in is leaving A lot of money and potential business deals on the table.

 

[Goombaic]

Speaking of Fighterz, wonder how long until suggesting different versions characters already in the game becomes widely popular in Smash speculation. Paper Mario, Mega Man X, and Alph (to an extent) are some that have some traction already. Y'all ready for Bowser Jr. (Sunshine) to become a Top 10 requested character?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Speaking of Fighterz, wonder how long until suggesting different versions characters already in the game becomes widely popular in Smash speculation. Paper Mario, Mega Man X, and Alph (to an extent) are some that have some traction already. Y'all ready for Bowser Jr. (Sunshine) to become a Top 10 requested character?

A damn long time when three Links is controversial.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

What? Not me at all. All I'm saying is, there's always future games.

The way I see it, Ultimate is gonna be the peak of Smash. It can already be argued as one of the biggest crossovers period. They'll never be another smash like it. Any future game will probably have a really dumbed down roster in comparison.

One of the main draws and a notable charm of Smash is it's crossover aspect and it's crazy matchups that can happen. Mario vs Cloud Strife, Link VS Ryu, Pikachu VS Persona 5's Joker, it's quite insane once you really think about it. The less characters there are the more that charm fades.

Needless to say, I'd much rather have my character in the Smash with greater matchup possibilities. Why wait for future games when we know they'll likely be inferior in that department? What you're doing feels like unnecessary gatekeeping

 

[SirBillyBob]

The phrase “just wait until the next game” is such a weak mindset. You are ok with what happened, being deconfirmed, the loss of a playable role. When you stop being passionate after losing, you’ve lost twice.

 

[Goombaic]

A damn long time when three Links is controversial.

Isn't the main grievance with the Links the fact that they could be unique from each other and take from other games inn the series rather than being copy-paste movesets with alterations between?