Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[DarthEnderX]

That is the one advantage Spring Man had over her. He has a basic attack. Min Min doesn't.

Other than all her kicks...

 

[ZeldaPlayer87]

I'd be interested to see the individual sales of each DLC character, as well as the sales numbers of the Fighters Pass 1, because those arguing about Geno’s marketability wouldn't mean much if people are just buying the pass outright, which people tend to do with games that have a pass, because they want all the content they can get.

It's pretty standard that individual DLC wouldn't mean much when it comes to marketability if everyone just buys the pass anyway. Sure, people can pick and choose what characters they want, but I would bet you my life savings that a majority of Smash players have all of the characters and bought Pass 1, and will more than likely buy Pass 2.

 

[Shroob]

I'd be interested to see the individual sales of each DLC character, as well as the sales numbers of the Fighters Pass 1, because those arguing about Geno’s marketability wouldn't mean much if people are just buying the pass outright, which people tend to do with games that have a pass, because they want all the content they can get.

It's pretty standard that individual DLC wouldn't mean much when it comes to marketability if everyone just buys the pass anyway. Sure, people can pick and choose what characters they want, but I would bet you my life savings that a majority of Smash players have all of the characters and bought Pass 1, and will more than likely buy Pass 2.

I don't think you'd even have to bet that, the first pass couldn't have been at a more perfect time.

Launched with the game: Check
December: Check
HUGE DROP literal hours before it was available to buy?: Check

It hit both Christmas for the west, and New Years for Asia, two of the biggest holidays for both sides of the globe respectively, and Nintendo themselves thought it big enough to bring up how much a success the 1st pass was.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Can someone tell me what's that event for Nintendo Online subs about?

 

[Opossum]

One word... no.

Last time Nintendo did this, fans voted stupid characters like Goku, Shrek, Spongebob, Freddy Fazbear and characters who are assists like Waluigi.

If your problem with the ballot was who other people voted for, then you were part of the actual problem with it: the toxic people who would demean others for what they voted for.

 

[Vintage Creep]

If your problem with the ballot was who other people voted for, then you were part of the actual problem with it: the toxic people who would demean others for what they voted for.

Also votes like those are automatically counted out so what's the problem.
Thanks to the Smash Ballot we got Bayonetta in Smash 4, and it's probably the reason why we got Ridley, K. Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus and Daisy in Ultimate. Probably got something to do with Banjo being added as well.
Please do another Ballot Sakurai, if it's not too late.

 

[Mamboo07]

If your problem with the ballot was who other people voted for, then you were part of the actual problem with it: the toxic people who would demean others for what they voted for.

I wasn't part of the ballot long time ago back in 2015, way before I came here.

 

[Flyboy]

My issue with a new ballot is a little more logistical.

With no game planned after Ultimate and no need to make one yet, there's not really a fallback plan or need to gather suggestions for the next game which was partially the motivation for the first. Plus let's say they do a ballot before pass 2 is fully revealed and I put all my chips behind Travis Touchdown. Then Travis Touchdown is in Pass 2. I just wasted my vote, I guess.

But let's say instead they do a ballot after pass 2 concludes. That would mean that they would need a month or so to collect data, and then several months to draw up a project plan based on that data, and then the two-year dev cycle, leading to a pretty prolonged experience.

I don't think it's a terrible idea, just not a necessary one and one that has some issues I can't really get over.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

In the day of social media and stuff where we can retrieve information at the click of a mouse or tap of a phone, I'm just not sure another ballot is even necessary anymore.

Sakurai and Nintendo have definitely kept track of what was popular, even after that ballot.

For example, they specifically mentioned Sans was a popular request, henceforth, the Mii costume. But here's the kicker, Undertale released in September 2015 about a month before the ballot deadline and really didn't blow up til a couple months later, so I'm doubtful he got many votes in that.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

In the day of social media and stuff where we can retrieve information at the click of a mouse or tap of a phone, I'm just not sure another ballot is even necessary anymore.

Sakurai and Nintendo have definitely kept track of what was popular, even after that ballot.

For example, they specifically mentioned Sans was a popular request, henceforth, the Mii costume. But here's the kicker, Undertale released in September 2015 about a month before the ballot deadline and really didn't blow up til a couple months later, so I'm doubtful he got many votes in that.

Didn’t Toby Fox himself approach Sakurai or something?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

One word... no.

Last time Nintendo did this, fans voted stupid characters like Goku, Shrek, Spongebob, Freddy Fazbear and characters who are assists like Waluigi.

Dark Samus
Ridley
Chrom

All of them were explicity said to have gotten in due to fan demand (aka ballot)

And all three of them had non-playable roles in Smash 4 already, being an assist, a stage boss and a Final Smash respectively.

I think it's fair to assume that the devs sort through the bull**** like Shrek and Powerpuff Girls.

 

[Aetheri]

Dark Samus
Ridley
Chrom

All of them were explicity said to have gotten in due to fan demand (aka ballot)

And all three of them had non-playable roles in Smash 4 already, being an assist, a stage boss and a Final Smash respectively.

I think it's fair to assume that the devs sort through the bull**** like Shrek and Powerpuff Girls.

Fairly certain KRool and Banjo's inclusions were influenced by the ballot as well.

Also "Everyone is here" as during Bayonetta's reveal it was stated that veterans (likely Wolf, Ice Climbers, and Snake being the big three that weren't added at the time) received a lot of requests as well.

 

[Perkilator]

Can Donkey Kong control the power of nature and rhythmic sound IN Ultimate?
Can Donkey Kong take the Ink mechanic and make it into someting that can boost and alternate their moves in Smash, instead of damaging on the terrain?
No?

I mean, he could do the former in Jungle Beat.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Fairly certain KRool and Banjo's inclusions were influenced by the ballot as well.

Also "Everyone is here" as during Bayonetta's reveal it was stated that veterans (likely Wolf, Ice Climbers, and Snake being the big three that weren't added at the time) received a lot of requests as well.

K. Rool and Banjo didn't have a chance to appear during Smash 4's gameplay. I was mostly just countering Mamboo's point about NPCs being "stupid votes"

 

[Garteam]

Honestly, talks of a new Smash game are probably less far off than we think.

By the time FP2 is done in December 2021, Ultimate will be three years old and the Switch will be approaching its fifth birthday in three months. The average life for a console in the past two generations was about 7 years, so R and D on the Switch's successor would need to begin in year 5 at the very least. Likewise, given that one of the major factor of the Switch's success was a strong first and second year that were planned out far in advanced, it wouldn't surprise me if they were began developing titles for the Switch successor in 2022. Seeing how Ultimate's been such a massive success, the next Smash game would assuredly be on that list.

Plus, starting development on the next Smash game three years after Ultimate isn't that strange if you look back historically. Brawl and Wii U/3DS began development four years after the release of Melee and Brawl respectively, so we're dealing with a difference of one year. Plus, if the next Smash game is just a deluxe port of Ultimate with a few new unique characters, 2-3 echoes, a new stage, and a new mode then that could realistically be turned around in time to be launch title.

As such, I could see a new Ballot being introduced sometime next year if they really wanted some new data before development of the next Smash began. Ultimate's iron is still hot, so you'd get a large amount of data right when it would be at its most useful.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Why has it become fashionable to take a dump on the ballot?
Because a of a few meme picks?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Why has it become fashionable to take a dump on the ballot?

Has it?

 

[Faso115]

The Ballot was a mistake. - Hayao Miyasaki

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Oh great, Crashboards again.

 

[StarBot]

the Hero presentation was meant to be completely "Dragon Quest-focused" (the showcasing of the then-upcoming amiibo for Isabelle, Pokemon Trainer, and Pichu goes against that anyway),

They showed the first wave of amiibo in the Persona focused presention, I really don't understand this gotcha?

Some people just don't want a Mii costume, and even with a smaller fanbase, believing in what you want is powerful, and it is ultimately the happiness of fans that is the real cost here. Happiness is what should matter if fans are happy and those who try him out and like him are happy. Just saying.

Not going to lie, I fell like this kind of logic is reason why Smash other features that isn't has been the main game mode, has been getting lackluster as of lately

"Here is a extra thing!"
"This extra thing sucks, I wanted a fighter, not this consolation prize"
"Oh okay, time to put more of our focus to the fighters then"
"Wtf what happened to ______"

I respect your opinion that not every one likes Mii costumes, but I always keep saying that Smash

 

[Rie Sonomura]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From what I read elsewhere there won’t be another delay unless there’s another COVID-19 spike, and Japan seems to have gotten the virus under control unlike the rest of the world

belated E3 “presentation” in July, anyone? Aside from ARMS and Pokémon this month was mostly like Paper Mario, Clubhouse games and other stuff that isn’t close to being a “big deal”

if this gets repeat posted blame Crashboards

 

[ZenythSmash]

Read the section again.

I said included.

Pichu was included due to being an easy to make clone. That was the reason for his inclusion, not the anime.

Every Pokemon takes cues from the anime, but Pichu and Pokemon Trainer weren't added because of it.

Understandable, sorry if i misread.

The F-Zero thing is funny because it shows all the promotion in the world is pointless if they don't sell a product that can benefit from it. Not only are there no new F-Zeros, you can't legimately play most of the series on modern consoles. Wii U at least has F-Zero, X, GP Legends and Maximum Velocity. 3DS and Switch only have F-Zero. No HD ports, no compilations, NOTHING to capitalize on years of attention.

It's a bit baffling F-Zero X still didn't get a remake/remaster with online and track editor included since the WiiU days.
same with GX.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Understandable, sorry if i misread.

It's a bit baffling F-Zero X still didn't get a remake/remaster with online and track editor included since the WiiU days.
same with GX.

Ever since Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD I’ve been hoping for non-Zelda HD GameCube remasters. F-Zero GX being an obvious choice.

also.. cries in Eternal Darkness

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Quick PSA
The devs are able to use the unironic results of the Ballot in conjunction with basic social media and news coverage. They aren't just going to base every single character in their flagship game on a ballot from 5 years ago. Video gaming is a very fast-moving type of media, and there are entirely new IPs and games (such as Astral Chain, Persona 5, Fortnite and Overwatch) which have been created since then, let alone changes in popularity from a fanbase that, in a sense, reflects the very unique media that they are fans of. The Ballot would have had some form of effect, and people did leave a lot of stupid picks, but that doesn't mean that the entire fanbase is being ignored because a few people posted haha funny green man in the Ballot.

 

[ZenythSmash]

I mean, he could do the former in Jungle Beat.

I know that, hence why i note IN Ultimate.
Seriously tho, if DK had some traits from Jungle Beat, outside his Final Smash, that would've been hella neat.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I find it kinda crazy how much the discussion turns to the next Smash game.

We’re in the middle of the Golden Age of Smash, with DLC Fighter 6 coming out on Monday (or Tuesday for some), with 5 more characters coming, and the discussion often shifts to Smash 6?

I don’t know, I just kinda find it crazy. Then again, I already know that Ultimate is the epitome of what I always wanted Smash to be, and considering Smash 6 has a very steep mountain to climb to outdo Ultimate for me, I just don’t have much of an interest in talking about what a Smash 6 looks like.

 

[Faso115]

Even smashboards is in support of Crash Bandicoot with how many times this site has gone down.

Let's make it a true Crashboards!

 

[TwiceEXE]

Smash 6 is so very far away. Work on UIt is going to continue through next year, at the least. Then there is a possibility of more DLC, a guarantee of Sakurai taking a break, and the years of development time for the new game. I would be very surprised to see a new Smash game before 2025.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I really want the next update to include a Character select organiser so we can finally order by series again.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Jeez that's a lot of 502 Bad Gateway Errors/Infinity buffers......

 

[SharkLord]

Damn right. Despite years of neglect, its status as a classic and Falcon in Smash have kept F-Zero alive and kicking in people's minds. A new F-Zero would sell, that's a guarantee. Nintendo can be incredibly short-sighted, but not capitalizing on a franchise that they've literally been advertising for decades because Miyamoto won't come up with a gimmick is one of their dumbest.

Honestly? With how long it's been sitting on the backburner, being the first F-Zero game in over a decade could be counted as a gimmick in and of itself.

I find it kinda crazy how much the discussion turns to the next Smash game.

We’re in the middle of the Golden Age of Smash, with DLC Fighter 6 coming out on Monday (or Tuesday for some), with 5 more characters coming, and the discussion often shifts to Smash 6?

I don’t know, I just kinda find it crazy. Then again, I already know that Ultimate is the epitome of what I always wanted Smash to be, and considering Smash 6 has a very steep mountain to climb to outdo Ultimate for me, I just don’t have much of an interest in talking about what a Smash 6 looks like.

We just got a new character, we've gotta wait a couple days for her to release, and we have no hints as to who's next. This leads to pointless speculation because we have no points to base it upon.
In other words, we must catalog all the current leaks not dead yet so we have something to actually focus on.

 

[Cosmic77]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

From what I read elsewhere there won’t be another delay unless there’s another COVID-19 spike, and Japan seems to have gotten the virus under control unlike the rest of the world

belated E3 “presentation” in July, anyone? Aside from ARMS and Pokémon this month was mostly like Paper Mario, Clubhouse games and other stuff that isn’t close to being a “big deal”

if this gets repeat posted blame Crashboards

Funny how not even a week and a half ago, people were saying stuff like, "It's becoming abundantly clear that Nintendo hasn't held a Direct yet because they literally have nothing else besides Paper Mario."

All will come in due time. Not sure if they have any amazing AAA reveals, but at least they have more to show us.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Plus let's say they do a ballot before pass 2 is fully revealed and I put all my chips behind Travis Touchdown. Then Travis Touchdown is in Pass 2. I just wasted my vote, I guess

Well, they pretty much did that with Bayonetta.

 

[P.Kat]

Ever since Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD I’ve been hoping for non-Zelda HD GameCube remasters. F-Zero GX being an obvious choice.

also.. cries in Eternal Darkness

I'd love an Adventures/Assault remaster for Star Fox

 

[Gribbo]

I respect your opinion that not every one likes Mii costumes, but I always keep saying that Smash

You always keep saying what?

 

[DarthEnderX]

With no game planned after Ultimate and no need to make one yet, there's not really a fallback plan or need to gather suggestions for the next game which was partially the motivation for the first. Plus let's say they do a ballot before pass 2 is fully revealed and I put all my chips behind Travis Touchdown. Then Travis Touchdown is in Pass 2. I just wasted my vote, I guess.

But let's say instead they do a ballot after pass 2 concludes. That would mean that they would need a month or so to collect data, and then several months to draw up a project plan based on that data, and then the two-year dev cycle, leading to a pretty prolonged experience.

I'll take the latter and save the ballot until after the last Ultimate character is announced.

I'd rather wait a few extra months for Smash 6 and know it was developed with the most accurate feedback possible.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

and Japan seems to have gotten the virus under control unlike the rest of the world

New Zealand: Hold my beer.

 

[SKX31]

So, why is Nintendo against unions, anyway? Would it hurt to ask?

I'd recommend AskHistorians for this (the only subreddit I can recommend - Reddit has generally too low of a bar and thus have allowed massive problems to fester for years.).

Still though, I'll try (this answer took me quite a bit to write, and even a whole re-write because I wasn't satisfied with my first attempt last night):

Hiroshi Yamauchi is a major reason why - he assumed the position of President in 1949, and stepped down in 2002. Because Japan's conservative social mores was still a major force in corporate culture back then, his status as the grandson of Nintendo's founder Fusajiro Yamauchi (President 1889 - 1929, died 1940) and the only boy born in the Yamauchi clan in three generations meant that Hiroshi was next in line after Fusajiro's son-in-law Sekiryo Kaneda (President 1929-1949). Kaneda suffered a stroke in 1948, and as such called in Hiroshi to inherit the family business. Hiroshi had just one demand to the ailing Sekiryo - Hiroshi wanted to be the only family member left in the company. As such, the weakened Sekiryo reluctantly agreed and fired Hiroshi's older cousin. It didn't take long until Sekiryo died and Hiroshi took over.

Having become President at age 21, Hiroshi proceeded to fire every manager left from Fusajiro's reign. Hiroshi was not a popular President early on - his inexperience and the sweep of long time employees did that. And his efforts to modernize and consolidate the hanafuda business resulted in deep-seated tension. Including a hunger strike in 1955. Although details of the strike (and other labor conflicts) are scant, the President wouldn't budge at all. After apparently having issued termination letters to his rivals within Nintendo, he brought his remaining workers under his heel.

“I couldn’t stand being taken for a guy who would only be the boss through blood ties,” Yamauchi was later quoted as saying about the early days. “More than anything else, I wanted to prove them wrong for underestimating me.”

Starting to sound like Kazuya there.

This is further highlighted when Yamauchi started a taxi company, Daiya. And sure, it was successful... but Yamauchi shut Daiya down because he grew tired of negotiating with the evidently powerful taxi unions. And while Yamauchi started other businesses like the trivia favorite the love hotels, Yamauchi wanted Nintendo to expand. And fast. Hanafuda didn't have a high ceiling, even if Nintendo's Disney cards were a major success. And the other ventures wasn't doing so hot (heh).

Thus he would go on to help establish Nintendo's "Games" division in 1969 - hiring people like Gunpei Yokoi for this endavour. And he demanded a lot out of Yokoi and other engineers - new toys, new ways to play. Since Yamauchi used both praise and scorn for this, Yokoi and other engineers effectively "lived for his [Yamauchi's] praise". So yeah, Yamauchi effectively stifled any sort of union-forming and made the executive / engineer ties the norm within Nintendo.

It didn't take long until Yokoi experimented with electronic toys, and by the 70s Nintendo were releasing light gun games and cooperating with Sharp and Mitsubishi. Yamauchi continued to pressure Yokoi and later hires like Miyamoto (hired in 1977) to come up with new ways to play. And no, Yamauchi was not satisfied with Color TV Game (you know, the AT) even if it sold a million, and pressed further. This lead Yokoi to look at the then new electronic calculators... and voila, . Meanwhile, many of Nintendo's other engineers held many, many late night meetings with Yamauchi to discuss their project modelled after Atari's consoles. A Family Computer, if you will.

It's worth to remember that Yamauchi's Nintendo was close to outright collapsing twice. First in 1975, when the oil crisis caused an economic crisis in Japan and effectively shut down Nintendo's light gun ranges. Yamauchi, Yokoi etc. saw the potential in the Pong games and made the call to shift over to video games. Which is what lead to Color TV Game. And the second time in 1980 - when Radar Scope failed miserably in America and NoA head Arakawa pleaded for help. So Yamauchi tasked Miyamoto to rework the unsold Radar Scope cabinets, with Yokoi overseeing the project. No one else was available.

The result? .. The rest, as they say, is history.

But Yamauchi's actions helped establish the R&D department and Nintendo's current culture. Yes, he's been gone from the post for 18 years now - but people like Miyamoto were hired by him and even Sakurai started his career when Yamauchi was still the head honcho. Other people in Nintendo like Iwata have helped perpetuate this culture - case in point: Iwata's work with Pokemon Gold / Silver, which was done post-haste and in relative secrecy. People like Miyamoto, Iwata and Sakurai essentially grew used to Yamauchi's ways and kept the focus around R&D and the organization contractor-centric.

Outside of Yamauchi's lingering influence, Nintendo's anti-union stance comes from their R&D section and need to minimize costs. Nintendo's consoles have generally not been powerhouses. And they've intentionally been built so Nintendo can gain profit per console sold (Sony and Microsoft lose money per console sold and make the difference back in software). Video games is, after all, the overwhelming focus for Nintendo - compare the Wii U's relative failure with the Wii and Switch's successes, and one can see how Nintendo's fortunes rest on them being successful.

Sources:

Game Over: How Nintendo Conquered the World. Google Books link here.

History of Nintendo: 1889-1980

 

[Michael the Spikester]

https://twitter.com/SSBUNews/status/1275849135271424000

Thought this would be interesting to post.

 

[Smash Monkey]

Probably the Best first Post I've read. Granted I don't think this has to mean most of the characters are First party, because Nintendo could also use this feature to promote games from Companies they are buddy buddy with, which encourages more 3rd party support

I do think this is interesting that they added this feature recently if that is true. Do you think all the characters in this pass would make use of this feature or do you think there will be a few like Joker or Banjo who don't have a game yet. Also with Persona 5 Scramble coming to Switch, will they add that in for Joker later on?

Thanks.

It's true they could do it with characters outside of Nintendo, and I could definitively see it happening with Braverly Default. I guess it's not the only reason why this pass could be first party dominated. It's telling they started with an ARMS character over something they would get people excited like Joker did. I think it was interesting that he said that and the website is changed to advertise games through these characters (doubt he knew it was changed. I mean, who religiously checks a page with just some pictures).

I figure that all the characters in this pass would have this. The first run was decided while they were still making the game, but now they can have Vol 2 have that cross promotion aspect now that they are doing it from the start. As for Joker, I guess it's because the game he actually represents, Persona 5, is not on Switch and it would seem weird to do the spin off. Like if they added Rex or Elma and advertised Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition. Still a little odd but whatever.