Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Shroob]

I feel like we aren't hearing the whole story. Obviously pretty much every character was looked over. They don't make these decisions hastily. We're only hearing some of what happened behind the scenes. Now that doesn't mean that Spring Man's AT status was or wasn't a factor. But there's just not enough for us to go off of. Either way, the trailer and the artwork that followed does give you the impression that Spring Man would have been the natural choice.

Pretty much.


The trailer and art make it very clear that "Spring Man was the obvious choice."


But then Sakurai himself admits "I was considering Ninjara for the position..."


It really does seem like Spring Man wasn't going to get it no matter what.

 

[TheCJBrine]

As I said before, you could make everything work (with some liberties) except for Geno Flash with the standard visual alterations in the special Mii costume moveset. Geno Whirl for example could be recreated pretty damn well in a costume.

Yeah but they wouldn’t work like Geno’s actual moves. You couldn’t recreate all of his moves with just one Mii type, either.

And I don’t think Gunner has a move similar to Geno Whirl unless you’re talking about the pea shooter laser shots or the stealth thing, which aren’t quite like it (especially not the laser shots, and the other thing is kinda there but eh).

Of course they’re still gun moves so they still work somewhat, and he could still be a costume, I’m just saying is all, personally I don’t think the moves match. The costumes don’t change the appearance of moves, either.

 

[N3ON]

It's serendipitous that Yabuki's favourite character is also the most popular one, but you'd be naive to think if his was the least popular character, that'd still be the one we'd get.

Min Min got in due to her popularity. Her being Yabuki's favourite was probably just the cherry on top.

 

[StrawHatX]

"Isn't Spring Man the main character?"

"Well, everyone is the main character, you know."


He did tell us about Spring Man, in a very roundabout way. EVERYONE in Arms is the main character.

Right. But I still feel like it would have been more damning if Sakurai had said something in only a way he could like “You might be wondering why not Spring Man? Well, he’s already represented in the game and doing battle as an Assist Trophy!”

I understand why people are hesitant on AT’s being viable, but I guess I’m just not one to put too much stock into “fan rules” which should just be called “fan theories”. There’s only one rule when it comes to Smash characters. No fourth parties.

I always thought the Spirit deconfirming thing was ridiculous too. I guess I’d be more willing to think AT’s aren’t going to be promoted if it wasn’t for the fact that we’re in Round 2 of DLC that was not planned when they were working on the main game.

 

[Gribbo]

Kinda off-topic but I really hope they do some sort of GOTY edition once they're done with the DLC. Not just because I'm a cheap ******* who's not gonna buy all those Mii costumes individually, but also so future generations will be able to play as all these crazy characters even after the eShop goes offline. And maybe they can bring back Smash Run while they're at it. And Targets. And a proper All-Star mode. And an online that isn't complete ass. And maybe even a few new characters like Capcom did with SFV. In fact they could just put Waluigi in there and it'll sell boatloads.

 

[Ben Holt]

Pretty much.


The trailer and art make it very clear that "Spring Man was the obvious choice."


But then Sakurai himself admits "I was considering Ninjara for the position..."


It really does seem like Spring Man wasn't going to get it no matter what.

Wish I could sad react this.
But I guess Spring Man will get his chance another day, like Chrom.

Also, I don't want to start a flame war, but I do find it odd that my counter-arguers simultaneously argued that Vault Boy is a strike against Doom Slayer, but Spring Man isn't a strike against other Assist Trophies.

 

[Shroob]

Right. But I still feel like it would have been more damning if Sakurai had said something in only a way he could like “You might be wondering why not Spring Man? Well, he’s already represented in the game and doing battle as an Assist Trophy!”

I understand why people are hesitant on AT’s being viable, but I guess I’m just not one to put too much stock into “fan rules” which should just be called “fan theories”. There’s only one rule when it comes to Smash characters. No fourth parties.

I always thought the Spirit reconfirming thing was ridiculous too. I guess I’d be more willing to think AT’s aren’t going to be promoted if it wasn’t for the fact that we’re in Round 2 of DLC that was not planned when they were working on the main game.

And likewise, I feel like Sakurai's comment speaks volumes. He was considering a character which I don't think many people really paid much thought to aside from "He's cool" compared to Spring Man for the role.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. but at least from what Sakurai himself said, he was considering the position to be Ninjara, not Spring Man, it was only Yabuki who changed it to be Min Min.

 

[Sc_Ev0lution]

Kinda off-topic but I really hope they do some sort of GOTY edition once they're done with the DLC. Not just because I'm a cheap ******* who's not gonna buy all those Mii costumes individually, but also so future generations will be able to play as all these crazy characters even after the eShop goes offline. And maybe they can bring back Smash Run while they're at it. And Targets. And a proper All-Star mode. And an online that isn't complete ass. And maybe even a few new characters like Capcom did with SFV. In fact they could just put Waluigi in there and it'll sell boatloads.

This is an idea so good there's no way Nintendo actually does it.

 

[Shroob]

This is an idea so good there's no way Nintendo actually does it.

Honestly, just changing All Star Mode from the abomination that it currently is would be a godsend.

I'll never get the 100 KOs milestone in All Star Mode.

 

[Ben Holt]

Kinda off-topic but I really hope they do some sort of GOTY edition once they're done with the DLC. Not just because I'm a cheap ******* who's not gonna buy all those Mii costumes individually, but also so future generations will be able to play as all these crazy characters even after the eShop goes offline. And maybe they can bring back Smash Run while they're at it. And Targets. And a proper All-Star mode. And an online that isn't complete ass. And maybe even a few new characters like Capcom did with SFV. In fact they could just put Waluigi in there and it'll sell boatloads.

I just want Ultimate to be a game like RuneScape, League of Legends, or Team Fortress 2 where the game just gets updated and built upon as an evergreen title.

 

[Koopaul]

So I was just looking at the Gallery in ARMS. There's a picture you can unlock of Spring Man saving a child from being hit by a car. The title of the picture is "Our Hero"

I mean c'mon. Nobody is going to convince me that Spring Man was never intended to be the mascot.

 

[StrawHatX]

And likewise, I feel like Sakurai's comment speaks volumes. He was considering a character which I don't think many people really paid much thought to aside from "He's cool" compared to Spring Man for the role.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. but at least from what Sakurai himself said, he was considering the position to be Ninjara, not Spring Man, it was only Yabuki who changed it to be Min Min.

No I agree with you he seemingly wasn’t going to pick Spring Man. I’m just saying I don’t think his AT status had anything to do with that. I think Sakurai just wanted a character he liked like Ninjara, but then went for Min Min due to being requested by Yabuki.

 

[TheShiningAbsol]

Also, I don't want to start a flame war, but I do find it odd that my counter-arguers simultaneously argued that Vault Boy is a strike against Doom Slayer, but Spring Man isn't a strike against other Assist Trophies.

I assume you're talking about me since I'm the only person that said anything about Vault Boy. I literally only asked why you thought Vault Boy actually increased his chances. And regardless, aren't those kind of... entirely different things?

 

[Koopaul]

Honestly I think its the fact that ARMS is so young that it could get away with using anyone. With any other series it would be ridiculous NOT to add someone like Ryu or Cloud. They're legends. No one in ARMS is a legend. So it wouldn't be blasphemy not to use the mascot. Or even not use the popular one and go with Ninjara. Heck. If they put in Kid Cobra people mightve thought that was odd but they wouldn't be outraged. ARMS doesn't have that kind of leverage yet.

 

[N3ON]

I'm confused, what do you mean by that?

I mean that that claim is suspicious, uncorroborated by other official metrics - which tell a different story, called into question by those with insight into the industry, and antithetical to how Nintendo proceeded with the series afterwards. It's not definitively false, but it very possibly could be.

and besides, Nintendo also gave F-Zero GX a Player's Choice release, which is know for recommending games that sold past a million copies, so it definitely sold in a success regardless if they or SEGA released the sale numbers.

I wouldn't be so sure.

All these games sold in excess of a million copies? On the Gamecube?
Shark Tale? True Crime: Streets of LA? Chronicles of Narnia: The Movie: The Game?

I think what "Player's Choice" means differs based on the system. According to this, the standard for Gamecube was 250,000 units.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So I was just looking at the Gallery in ARMS. There's a picture you can unlock of Spring Man saving a child from being hit by a car. The title of the picture is "Our Hero"

I mean c'mon. Nobody is going to convince me that Spring Man was never intended to be the mascot.

What you don't realize is that the picture title is sarcastic, Spring Man isn't saving the child, he's placing the child in front of the car to kill him after one too many remarks about his ****ty hair

 

[Ben Holt]

I mean that that claim is suspicious, uncorroborated by other official metrics - which tell a different story, called into question by those with insight into the industry, and antithetical to how Nintendo proceeded with the series afterwards. It's not definitively false, but it very possibly could be.


I wouldn't be so sure.

All these games sold in excess of a million copies? On the Gamecube?
Shark Tale? True Crime: Streets of LA? Chronicles of Narnia: The Movie: The Game?

I think what "Player's Choice" means differs based on the system. According to this, the standard for Gamecube was 250,000 units.

I bough F-Zero GX. It's my favorite F-Zero game.
But I cannot act like F-Zero isn't a niche franchise. Maybe some day we'll get a reboot.

 

[SharkLord]

I feel like there's been a bit of a misunderstanding involving Ninjara. Sakurai didn't say, "I wanted Ninjara, but Yabuki wanted Min Min instead." He said "I was considering Min Min, but I also considered Ninjara." He didn't say Ninjara was the only one considered, but that he was considered alongside Min Min.

 

[Shroob]

I feel like there's been a bit of a misunderstanding involving Ninjara. Sakurai didn't say, "I wanted Ninjara, but Yabuki wanted Min Min instead." He said "I was considering Min Min, but I also considered Ninjara." He didn't say Ninjara was the only one considered, but that he was considered alongside Min Min.

Correct, but that doesn't change much about the topic at hand.

The thing at hand is he only really mentioned Spring Man in the "Wait, isn't he the protagonist?" bit.

 

[SharkLord]

Correct, but that doesn't change much about the topic at hand.

The thing at hand is he only really mentioned Spring Man in the "Wait, isn't he the protagonist?" bit.

Yeah, it's just that I've seen "Sakurai wanted Ninjara specifically" tossed around a fair bit, and I felt like that needed to be cleared up a bit.
As for the Spring Man thing, I think it's pretty simple. Sakurai asked Yabuki, Yabuki said Min Min, and Yabuki got Min Min. Out of the ensemble cast, Spring Man got the biggest marketing push, and the devs wanted to address his larger role in the marketing, even though he wasn't chosen.

 

[ZephyrZ]

How long will Cacomallow exist on life support.

The leak happened on like, November 3rd/4th.

Terry came out November 6th, nothing.

Byleth came out late January, nothing.

Min Min comes out next week, nothing.


Is this just going to be Schrodinger's leak where a small group of people are going to keep it alive for no reason other than them wanting it to be real? It's been almost 8 months and nothing to show of it.

My prediction: Fighter Pack 11 will include the Cacamallow costumes alongside the newest fighter: Gothitelle.

It's the kind of genius move only Sakurai could think of.

 

[cosmicB]

Yeah but they wouldn’t work like Geno’s actual moves. You couldn’t recreate all of his moves with just one Mii type, either.

And I don’t think Gunner has a move similar to Geno Whirl unless you’re talking about the pea shooter laser shots or the stealth thing, which aren’t quite like it (especially not the laser shots, and the other thing is kinda there but eh).

Of course they’re still gun moves so they still work somewhat, and he could still be a costume, I’m just saying is all, personally I don’t think the moves match. The costumes don’t change the appearance of moves, either.

What if they combined Mii costume movesets, but only for Geno? Like have Geno Whirl replace Mii Swordfighter's Shuriken of Light, have Geno Beam replace Mii Gunner's Laser Blaze, etc. You can make one side B or something. And this would all be entirely unique to Geno and no other Mii fighters.

 

[Ben Holt]

What if they combined Mii costume movesets, but only for Geno? Like have Geno Whirl replace Mii Swordfighter's Shuriken of Light, have Geno Beam replace Mii Gunner's Laser Blaze, etc. You can make one side B or something. And this would all be entirely unique to Geno and no other Mii fighters.

Kinda defeats the purpose of Mii Fighters.

 

[cosmicB]

I remember a rumor back Around the time the game came out that Nintendo was shocked at the Backlash to Isaac. who knows what will happen

Wasn't that just Fatman saying Nintendo thought ATs would be fine consolation prizes and were blindsided when people ended up legitimately mad? Did any other sources ever actually confirm this?

 

[TheCJBrine]

What if they combined Mii costume movesets, but only for Geno? Like have Geno Whirl replace Mii Swordfighter's Shuriken of Light, have Geno Beam replace Mii Gunner's Laser Blaze, etc. You can make one side B or something. And this would all be entirely unique to Geno and no other Mii fighters.

At that point they may as well make him a full fighter. No reason to code all this for a mii costume and not make him his own character.

Wasn't that just Fatman saying Nintendo thought ATs would be fine consolation prizes and were blindsided when people ended up legitimately mad? Did any other sources ever actually confirm this?

There was an image of a Nintendo Ambassador saying it, his name removed. I think Sabi knew of it too, he was also in contact with the ambassador thanks to a friend he talked about before in the Geno thread (Sabi was known as PolarPanda then). This was back in 2018. I think the ambassador also mentioned something else like a possible Pass 2 depending on how Pass 1 did, and possible character promotion stuff but I’m not sure about that promotion part, it just feels familiar, but hey, I guess he was right about Pass 2 haha, I actually completely forgot about that until y’all brought this up.

 

[SirBillyBob]

I can just imagine the pain they go through whenever a character gets deconfirmed in game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

View attachment 276335
I can just imagine the pain they go through whenever a character gets deconfirmed in game.

I've been stalked and accused of sending death threats but I wonder how badly customer service peeps have been treated by those same people because Smash didn't include their fav. I know the Captain Falcon discord group or whatever yelled at them for Falcon buffs

 

[ZenythSmash]

I mean that that claim is suspicious, uncorroborated by other official metrics - which tell a different story, called into question by those with insight into the industry, and antithetical to how Nintendo proceeded with the series afterwards. It's not definitively false, but it very possibly could be..

Oh, so you're just resorting to your personal conspiracy, especially with the man who produced the game with Miyamoto AND directs the Yakuza series, giving a brighter light to F-Zero GX's success.
Are you saying he's a liar or are you saying EDGE are liars? It's their sale data and they've interviewed the notable Nintendo faces before even, I'm not sure what are you trying to incite about.

All these games sold in excess of a million copies? On the Gamecube?
Shark Tale? True Crime: Streets of LA? Chronicles of Narnia: The Movie: The Game?

This it my first time knowing that the GCN Player Choice's label lower the bar on what's getting priced dropped, it's shocking really especially how dug down that article is. I don't think anybody know this.
But even then, F-Zero was still selling millions prior to its release on the GCN, so its very hard to believe it sold like shovelware (not dissing on True Crime if anything) or less than what the Yakuza's director is claiming in that interview.

The point is that GX did in fact sold in a success. There's no other evidence saying it sold much less than X and the whole stuff about F-Zero being shelved is more on about what to do next and how to make it better than, or as good as. the last ones. The man himself even cited fears about that, seems like the game is in fact vital to F-Zero's successes according to Nintendo.

saying Smash's help was useless is a bit preposterous, Uprising might've sold worse than Star Fox Assault if Pit wasn't futureproofed in Brawl

 

[ZelDan]

View attachment 276335
I can just imagine the pain they go through whenever a character gets deconfirmed in game.

OMG WHY DID YOU DECONFIRM ISAAC AND ASHLEY WHERE IS SHANTAE CAN I HAVE SANS THE BAD TIME SKELETON PLEASE ALSO GIVE US COOL NINJA HAYUBASA! WHY HAVEN'T YOU ADDED GENO YET!?

Intern: (literally what is any of this stuff?)

 

[Shroob]

View attachment 276335
I can just imagine the pain they go through whenever a character gets deconfirmed in game.

"Stu, it's 4 in the morning, why on Earth are you [responding to Smash Bros fans]?"

"Because I've lost control of my life."

 

[DarthEnderX]

Probably because the chance of any character being added is extremely small. There are thousands of video game characters that fit the traditional Smash criteria, and only 5 of them will be chosen.

Logically yes. But Riley only comes here to be negative and pessimistic to try sour people's optimism and kill hope.

But I guess Spring Man will get his chance another day, like Chrom.

I dunno man. ARMS doesn't strike me as the kind of franchise that's going to get another rep anytime soon.

 

[ZenythSmash]

Is it me? or does it really feel like that each Pokemon rep they add is based the Pokemon featured of the movies and anime seasons?

It's obviously a coincidence, but I feel like it's worth mentioning.

It's not a conincidence, it's a fact.

Read the top right interview.

 

[Luigi580]

Yeah, it's just that I've seen "Sakurai wanted Ninjara specifically" tossed around a fair bit, and I felt like that needed to be cleared up a bit.
As for the Spring Man thing, I think it's pretty simple. Sakurai asked Yabuki, Yabuki said Min Min, and Yabuki got Min Min. Out of the ensemble cast, Spring Man got the biggest marketing push, and the devs wanted to address his larger role in the marketing, even though he wasn't chosen.

Yeah, I believe you're right for that case.

Honestly, I feel like we would've gotten Min Min regardless of Yabuki's request. If we were to completely ignore the existence of said request, Sakurai only stated that he considered Min Min and Ninjara, so it seemed like Spring Man wasn't even in the running anyway.

Let's compare Min Min with Ninjara' popularity first. Both are popular, with both characters reaching the finale of the final Party Crash Bash. Obviously we wouldn't know if Min Min's victory would've given the push for certain, but it certainly was a game changer in the lore of ARMS itself, basically making Min Min the canon victor of the tournament. Official artwork of a victorious Min Min with the champion belt circled the web, which boosted her already impressive popularity even further. By the time Sakurai was looking for an ARMS fighter, Min Min was already one of the more recognizable characters outside of the boxart duo. Ninjara certainly had his fans for sure, but they paled in comparison to the Ramen Bomber.

And then we compare the two mechanically. I don't doubt that Sakurai could make a fun moveset for Ninjara, but compared to Min Min, his special abilities aren't nearly as welcoming to Smash. He's all about evasive capabilities, so he would be able to air dash safely and invisibly (which would just be an air dodge) and avoid moves instead of taking chip damage (not sure how you incorporate that in. Sakurai could probably pull it off, but it'd definitely take some creative thinking... or a counter). Then you look at Min Min: not only does she get a fun little power boost to her left arm after certain conditions are met, but she get a whole slew of moveset potential thanks to canonically using kicks. Sure, I guess you could let anyone use kicks for a small, fast pace move, but Min Min makes by far the most sense since she kicks in her own game.

So yeah, through fan popularity, creator popularity, and just pure moveset potential, it felt like Min Min was an inevitable pick.

I do feel bad for Spring Man though. He looked so happy in Min Min's trailer, only to get punched in the face. And then you see him sadly watching on in the background of the promotional poster. Better luck next time, buddy!

 

[Koopaul]

Ninjara also kicks when he throws someone in ARMS. So it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary to have Ninjara kicking. His teleporting could be used as an Up Special.

Also, Min Min's ARMS are so unique that the Smash team had to change how the Dragons work just so she could have a normal punch! That's right. Min Min is one of the ARMS fighters that doesn't have a normal punching move. So they had to make her Dragon punch. That is the one advantage Spring Man had over her. He has a basic attack. Min Min doesn't.

 

[TheCJBrine]

So I was just looking at the Gallery in ARMS. There's a picture you can unlock of Spring Man saving a child from being hit by a car. The title of the picture is "Our Hero"

I mean c'mon. Nobody is going to convince me that Spring Man was never intended to be the mascot.

He’s also referred to as “Our springed hero” in the Popularity Contest artwork’s description, further suggesting he could be a known superhero of sorts in the general ARMS lore.

 

[ZenythSmash]

Only Pichu and Pokemon Trainer weren't added due to the anime.

Tecnhincally wrong on one part: Pichu in Smash is directly inspired from the Pikachu short where you can see where the "recoil" gimmick came from. The short was also the first demonstration of the Pokedex's description of Pichu's inexperience with eletricity.

I want a fully evolved Grass starter, but I'm not really feeling Rillaboom. Smash already has a bigass gorilla.

Can Donkey Kong control the power of nature and rhythmic sound IN Ultimate?
Can Donkey Kong take the Ink mechanic and make it into someting that can boost and alternate their moves in Smash, instead of damaging/slowing on the terrain?
No?

Good, Rillaboom sounds like a fresh and fun primate addition for DLC to me.

 

[AEMehr]

At the end of the day, it was pretty evident min min had all the resources needed to be selected imo.
popularity, a versatile kit, developer favoritism, iconic/unique design, unique name, etc.

whether you feel spring man "deserves" the spot or not is subjective. i agree with the notion that every character is leading, because they all lead their own story. the only notion that would suggest otherwise is the ARMS teaser comic released for free comic book day a couple years ago, and who knows if that will remain relevant when or if ever we get the comic.
Spring Man and Ribbon Girl were the faces for the Switch reveal event and appeared on the box art, sure. But that support was only really early when ARMS was just being revealed.
Beyond that, ALL of the characters got promotional art. Every character were given motivations and goals to lead their own story for Grand Prix. Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are merely a couple of the many competitors in the game. As far as the in-game universe is concerned, the only characters actually pivotal to the world are really Dr. Coyle and Max Brass for creating the sport and being the acting champion.

i mean sure spring man would have been picked if they added a character earlier, but not because he's an assist trophy now, it's because he would have been the only character with a ready design to give to the smash team / sakurai. please don't fool yourself otherwise.


this argument/take is just the perfect encapsulation of "just because you try hard doesn't mean you join the battle".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Tecnhincally wrong on one part: Pichu in Smash is directly inspired from the Pikachu short where you can see where the "recoil" gimmick came from. The short was also the first demonstration of the Pokedex's description of Pichu's inexperience with eletricity.

Read the section again.

I said included.

Pichu was included due to being an easy to make clone. That was the reason for his inclusion, not the anime.

Every Pokemon takes cues from the anime, but Pichu and Pokemon Trainer weren't added because of it.

 

[PSIGuy]

The F-Zero thing is funny because it shows all the promotion in the world is pointless if they don't sell a product that can benefit from it. Not only are there no new F-Zeros, you can't legimately play most of the series on modern consoles. Wii U at least has F-Zero, X, GP Legends and Maximum Velocity. 3DS and Switch only have F-Zero. No HD ports, no compilations, NOTHING to capitalize on years of attention.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The F-Zero thing is funny because it shows all the promotion in the world is pointless if they don't sell a product that can benefit from it. Not only are there no new F-Zeros, you can't legimately play most of the series on modern consoles. Wii U at least has F-Zero, X, GP Legends and Maximum Velocity. 3DS and Switch only have F-Zero. No HD ports, no compilations, NOTHING to capitalize on years of attention.

Damn right. Despite years of neglect, its status as a classic and Falcon in Smash have kept F-Zero alive and kicking in people's minds. A new F-Zero would sell, that's a guarantee. Nintendo can be incredibly short-sighted, but not capitalizing on a franchise that they've literally been advertising for decades because Miyamoto won't come up with a gimmick is one of their dumbest.