Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Diddy Kong]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-



-OOOH-kay... I don't like echo fighters very much but if they can have the properties of their normals and specials changed like the Melee clones then that's good. It's the reason why I don't hate Ken as an echo fighter. I'd give each echo fighter some different knockback angles and have their attacks deal more or less damage than their base counterparts. Too lazy to list them though so I'll just go over their specials and whatever else.

: ; Exactly the same as he was in Melee so he'd be exactly the same as... Link... He's an exception since he arrived in Smash first.
: Dry Bowser; Essentially a smaller Giga Bowser with nerfs given to stop them being boss tier attacks.
: Sceptile; Replace the water swords with it's Leaf Blades. Up Special would be Leaf Tornado which would be cloned from Hero instead, Neutral Special would be Energy Ball which is cloned from Mewtwo's Shadow Ball (Kind of silly how you cannot store Greninja's water shuriken), Side Special would be Pursuit where instead of controlling where Sceptile will go, Sceptile will automatically try to attack the opponent and deals more damage if they are facing away from it. Finally Down special would still be Substitute.
: Dr. Luigi; Ran out of characters I wanted at this point. Contrary to Dr. Mario, Dr. Luigi would be a faster but weaker version of Luigi. He would have his slippery traction and a higher jump than Luigi. His Up special is strongest at the height of the move, Down special being Dr. Cyclone with it back to being a recovery move, Side Special (Which I call the Air Ambulance) travelling faster than Green Missile and Neutral Special being Fast Capsule taken from Dr. Mario's custom special from Smash 4 (I would change Dr. Mario's neutral special to the Mega Capsule just to match it)
: Dixie Kong; Up special would be changed to the hair copter, Neutral special would be a Bubble gum pop gun, Monkey Flip grab would have Dixie jump and kick off from her opponent and Down Special would be bubble gum toss which Dixie would toss away like Diddy Kong's Banana Peel but the gum has a gooey effect instead of slip effect.
: Yooka & Laylee; Instead of a third jump, Holding jump while in the air will allow Yooka and Laylee to glide, Neutral B would be Sonar shot which has a subtle wind hit box. Holding down the button does not give them their own version of the breegull blaster, Up Special would be Lizard Leap, Side Special would be Reptile Rush. While it doesn't grant them super armour like wonder wing, Yooka and Laylee's attack is non committal allowing for follow up attacks. Finally their down special is unique being Sonars splosion. Charge up the attack to release a sonic wave that stuns nearby opponents and grants them super armour, this move can only be used 5 times per stock.


You had me with Melee Link but then you had to say modern moveset.



So it's basically a fighters pass?

With modern moveset, I kind of mean they could add new things to OoT Link's moveset, like the charged up Spin Attack, but now with super armour, or elemental arrows instead of regular ones with Neutral B, such things. Obviously, he would also need the Hookshot back.

But yeah, maybe it would work just as well as a Young Link Echo. Technically, they are the same Link anyway. But the differences would be bigger between Young Link and Adult OoT Link than between Hylian Champion Link and Adult OoT Link. But who cares.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sakurai likely wouldn't make Dixie a Echo because of this all. Dark Samus is just more Echo material than Dixie. Dixie just has way too many defining abilities for her to be a Echo. Sure Dark Samus could've been more more unique, but like Pit and Dark Pit, Dark Samus is a literal clone of Samus, and thus has acces to the same basic abilities as Samus. Dixie doesn't share this with Diddy, not in the slightest. This is also why I didn't list Dixie as one of my chosen Echoes.

Had the roles been reversed, you'd probably be saying the same things about Dark Samus, except Dark Samus has way more distinct abilities from Samus than Dixie Kong does from Diddy Kong. Dark Samus also doesn't have the same abilities as Samus, lacking missiles, and the Morph Ball, just like Dixie Kong doesn't have the Peanut Popguns or Rocket Barrels (well...Ignoring the fact that Diddy Kong gets the Rocket Barrels from Super Smash Bros., which got it from Donkey Kong: Barrel Blast where Dixie Kong was playable).

EDIT: What I mean to say is, while both characters have their own unique qualities, I don't think either one is so distinct that they're immune to being straight up copies of their parent fighter as unfortunate as such a fate is/would be.

 

[Cosmic77]

You know, this doesn't prove how that statement is wrong, just that you don't like what it could imply

Well, what else could Sakurai be implying? People have revised what they believe this statement is supposed to mean every time they're wrong.

"It means we're only getting new franchises. If we get a first-party, it'll have to be something like Ring Fit or Astral Chain.
*Byleth gets in.
"Actually, it means new games. We should look at new games coming out in 2020 and 2021."
*ARMS character gets in.
"Uhh... Well, it definitely means something. Certain characters can't get in."

Honestly, I don't think Sakurai was trying to say anything outside of, "I look forward to adding even more characters in Smash."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just use young link

Young Link is a small character. He does not play like classic previous Links outside of Young Link himself. The size is a huge difference in battle. Bad jokes aside.

I'd say no. "Expand the world of Smash" just sounds like another way to say "add more content". To me, it's like Reggie's statement: It sounds nice, but when you realize what they mean you're just like "well duh!".

EDIT: I misread your post a bit and thought you were posing a question. What I said still makes sense, just think of it as more of an addition to what you said than an answer to it.

I'd say it's more "content that wasn't there before in its original form" is as simplified as possible, not simply "new content" alone. Otherwise you have to remove any hopes of someone like Spring Man since he was already in the game in multiple forms. But since it's clear Spring Man is possible, they do mean characters in a new way as well for the context. To say the least, Nintendo and Sakurai would not advertise any spirit or AT as possible otherwise.

Even then, each character/series has their own reasons for being added, in other words, even if we get Spring Man, it ultimately means nothing in a unique situation for say, Waluigi or Isaac.

That doesn't change my point. It means they are plausible, and I already covered that anyway beforehand.

That's why, in my humble opinion, it's hard to say much else on "upgrades" until we not only see who we get from ARMS. I would argue, even if we do get Rex, for example, after Spring Man, it would still be difficult to say whether or not "most of the pass" would be upgrades. Rex is similar to ARMS in that they "would have" been in the game if the timing worked out better. But besides that, XC2 is quite different from ARMS.

Doesn't really change what I said. They're plausible, but that doesn't mean they have equal chances. That's what getting Spring Man means. That Nintendo has proven having an old role is not a death sentence. Their chances slightly rise by this factor, but how much it rises beyond about 1% depends upon other factors too. Different games coming out, etc. Right now, there is no new ARMS thing coming out beyond a delayed Manga. They basically went out of nowhere to heavily promote the game far more than normal, which they loosely kept it in the spotlight.

There's also the fact that, up until now, we've strictly gotten protagonists from new series/new entries from already included series, especially for DLC. If that observation holds true, that doesn't bode well for particular characters who don't fit that mold.

I don't think this pattern means much either. For the first playable character in a series, it's going to be a main character or a mascot. It's why ones like Dr. Coyle seem very very possible, or Max Brass. ARMS doesn't even have an actual protagonist, so no matter who it gets, it'll be a mascot or a main character. The protagonist first rule was broken with PIkachu first(calling it more than a pattern is misleading, since it's not just because they're a protagonist. It's clearly more than that. A lot of times they're also the mascot, but more importantly, are able to do certain things other characters cannot. Sure, we've gotten unique ones too that don't accurate reflect the game like Shulk. We've gotten oddballs like Robin, a protagonist in their own right, but it was the protagonist of the series as a whole who started off FE, being Marth). We also have to remember that Hero coming first wasn't that simple. Sakurai directly noted he would've used Slime if Hero was unavailable and he had to use Slime instead. He still likes protagonists too(though specifically Nintendo chose Hero in this case), but it's misleading that it's some kind of rule. It's always context-dependent.

There's a first time for everything, but think there's just this kinda weird nihilistic mentality that, "because we aren't always right, we shouldn't talk about anything!" If that's the case what are we even here for?

Yeah, this has nothing to do with me. I never said anything suggesting things can't be changed up. I'm an extremely open mind in a lot of cases. I don't think it has to be a protagonist or mascot first. But if it's not a main character in the game otherwise, it's vastly unrealistic. There's only 4 ARMS characters I think have a ghost of a chance with ARMS 1 only in mind; Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Max Brass, Dr. Coyle. Main characters and Mascots. Again, there's no legitimate protagonists in ARMS to go off of. So no matter what, we wouldn't be getting one. If it's meant to advertise ARMS 2, where there is a set protagonist, it'd still be a character from the first game anyway, but that's the only way possible, and they still have yet to advertise the idea a new game is coming. It's possible, but a stretch to try and keep that rule intact about protagonists.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well, what else could Sakurai be implying? People have revised what they believe this statement is supposed to mean every time they're wrong.

"It means we're only getting new franchises. If we get a first-party, it'll have to be something like Ring Fit or Astral Chain.
*Byleth gets in.
"Actually, it means new games. We should look at new games coming out in 2020 and 2021."
*ARMS character gets in.
"Uhh... Well, it definitely means something. Certain characters can't get in."

Honestly, I don't think Sakurai was trying to say anything outside of, "I look forward to adding even more characters in Smash."

He said that during the first pass, which may have been before the second pass was approved, though as we'll never know when the second pass was decided and how long in advance that Direct was, I realize that we'll never get a solid answer

Also, honestly? I completely ****ing forgot ARMS has Spirits lmao I'm gonna hold this L

 

[Digital Hazard]

I'll be honest on my thoughts about people seeing Dixie as a potential Echo for Diddy:

No.

It's not like I can't see her borrowing stuff from Diddy, but at best I just see her as a pseudo-clone borrowing some of his normal attacks. Her ponytail is just too much of a signature thing for her to just be used in a recovery.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Imo if we don’t take other things Sakurai says that seriously because of Nintendo choosing the fighters and him discussing somewhat and only saying no if he can’t think of a way to make them work, I don’t know why we’re taking this statement of his that seriously especially since ARMS just seemingly confirms how some people like myself tried to interpret it before, with how other games’ characters that already have content could possibly still get in due to the world and its unique stuff still being vastly unrepresented besides some spirits and little other content.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'll be honest on my thoughts about people seeing Dixie as a potential Echo for Diddy:

No.

It's not like I can't see her borrowing stuff from Diddy, but at best I just see her as a pseudo-clone borrowing some of his normal attacks. Her ponytail is just too much of a signature thing for her to just be used in a recovery.

Idk man it's less significant in her abilities than damn near everything Dark Samus does, ideally, Dixie would be unique but I will nevee understand why people think girl monkey being able to use the same moves as boy monkey is such an irredeemable crime, they even gave Dixie her own Popgun

 

[Digital Hazard]

Idk man it's less significant in her abilities than damn near everything Dark Samus does, ideally, Dixie would be unique but I will nevee understand why people think girl monkey being able to use the same moves as boy monkey is such an irredeemable crime, they even gave Dixie her own Popgun

I can at least see the justification of Dark Samus having one of Samus's suits and DNA making her able to do anything she does.

To me, Dixie pulling out the same weapons as Diddy when she has never done so would feel as out of place as Ganondorf still being a Captain Falcon pseudo-clone or Daisy using Toads for attacks.

 

[smashingDoug]

Young Link is a small character. He does not play like classic previous Links outside of Young Link himself. The size is a huge difference in battle. Bad jokes aside.


I'd say it's more "content that wasn't there before in its original form" is as simplified as possible, not simply "new content" alone. Otherwise you have to remove any hopes of someone like Spring Man since he was already in the game in multiple forms. But since it's clear Spring Man is possible, they do mean characters in a new way as well for the context. To say the least, Nintendo and Sakurai would not advertise any spirit or AT as possible otherwise.


That doesn't change my point. It means they are plausible, and I already covered that anyway beforehand.


Doesn't really change what I said. They're plausible, but that doesn't mean they have equal chances. That's what getting Spring Man means. That Nintendo has proven having an old role is not a death sentence. Their chances slightly rise by this factor, but how much it rises beyond about 1% depends upon other factors too. Different games coming out, etc. Right now, there is no new ARMS thing coming out beyond a delayed Manga. They basically went out of nowhere to heavily promote the game far more than normal, which they loosely kept it in the spotlight.


I don't think this pattern means much either. For the first playable character in a series, it's going to be a main character or a mascot. It's why ones like Dr. Coyle seem very very possible, or Max Brass. ARMS doesn't even have an actual protagonist, so no matter who it gets, it'll be a mascot or a main character. The protagonist first rule was broken with PIkachu first(calling it more than a pattern is misleading, since it's not just because they're a protagonist. It's clearly more than that. A lot of times they're also the mascot, but more importantly, are able to do certain things other characters cannot. Sure, we've gotten unique ones too that don't accurate reflect the game like Shulk. We've gotten oddballs like Robin, a protagonist in their own right, but it was the protagonist of the series as a whole who started off FE, being Marth). We also have to remember that Hero coming first wasn't that simple. Sakurai directly noted he would've used Slime if Hero was unavailable and he had to use Slime instead. He still likes protagonists too(though specifically Nintendo chose Hero in this case), but it's misleading that it's some kind of rule. It's always context-dependent.


Yeah, this has nothing to do with me. I never said anything suggesting things can't be changed up. I'm an extremely open mind in a lot of cases. I don't think it has to be a protagonist or mascot first. But if it's not a main character in the game otherwise, it's vastly unrealistic. There's only 4 ARMS characters I think have a ghost of a chance with ARMS 1 only in mind; Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Max Brass, Dr. Coyle. Main characters and Mascots. Again, there's no legitimate protagonists in ARMS to go off of. So no matter what, we wouldn't be getting one. If it's meant to advertise ARMS 2, where there is a set protagonist, it'd still be a character from the first game anyway, but that's the only way possible, and they still have yet to advertise the idea a new game is coming. It's possible, but a stretch to try and keep that rule intact about protagonists.

I just think smash 4 link would be more unique.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Idk man it's less significant in her abilities than damn near everything Dark Samus does, ideally, Dixie would be unique but I will nevee understand why people think girl monkey being able to use the same moves as boy monkey is such an irredeemable crime, they even gave Dixie her own Popgun

Same. The hair moves needed at most are a new Up B(which can be retooled from DK due to similar skeletons), a new ledge attack, and at best a grab(and she can certainly grab with her hands anyway). She doesn't even need to be as different as Chrom, who has even more unique animations than a lot of Echoes due to holding his blade differently from Roy.

She'd already get slight animation changes, or far more like Chrom/Dark Samus. Her taunts would obviously reflect her better. She's got the same bodyshape as Diddy too, and can perform almost all of his abilities in Ultimate as is(and fully in canon). Which is what makes Dark Samus hilariously a bad example to use at times. She's an example of a character who is using non-canon moves simply because of the bodyshape, whereas Dixie can actually use most of Diddy's moves because that was the point. She's supposed to be interchangeable to a major degree.

I just think smash 4 link would be more unique.

That's not what I mean. Young Link plays very differently from Classic Link in 4/Brawl, Melee, and 64. He just has the tools that Classic Link uses, but not the same frame data, damage, knockback, range, or speed. Ultimate's the only time Link got a massive change, as the lack of a Hookshot variant is a big deal in how he plays. The Boomerang changes throughout Smash history are notable too, but not as much as losing a ranged grab along with a tether(since Melee). The remote bombs are cool, but also requires a new way to play as him. He's very different.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'd say it's more "content that wasn't there before in its original form" is as simplified as possible, not simply "new content" alone. Otherwise you have to remove any hopes of someone like Spring Man since he was already in the game in multiple forms. But since it's clear Spring Man is possible, they do mean characters in a new way as well for the context. To say the least, Nintendo and Sakurai would not advertise any spirit or AT as possible otherwise.

I disagree that that's the case. Even a spirit promotion would qualify as new content as it's still a new playable character. But this is just semantics so eh.

I'll be honest on my thoughts about people seeing Dixie as a potential Echo for Diddy:

No.

It's not like I can't see her borrowing stuff from Diddy, but at best I just see her as a pseudo-clone borrowing some of his normal attacks. Her ponytail is just too much of a signature thing for her to just be used in a recovery.

And again, Dark Samus with her absent lasers and doubles n' stuff, Daisy with her non-relation to Toads, etc. Really, she'd work just fine. That's also not to say that she couldn't have a few hair based attacks, even as an Echo Fighter, but she isn't so unique from Diddy Kong that they absolutely wouldn't do it.

Don't get me wrong though, even if she were to be an Echo Fighter, she needs her unique abilities to be on display or, like you, I wouldn't want her.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Young Link is a small character. He does not play like classic previous Links outside of Young Link himself. The size is a huge difference in battle. Bad jokes aside.


I'd say it's more "content that wasn't there before in its original form" is as simplified as possible, not simply "new content" alone. Otherwise you have to remove any hopes of someone like Spring Man since he was already in the game in multiple forms. But since it's clear Spring Man is possible, they do mean characters in a new way as well for the context. To say the least, Nintendo and Sakurai would not advertise any spirit or AT as possible otherwise.


That doesn't change my point. It means they are plausible, and I already covered that anyway beforehand.


Doesn't really change what I said. They're plausible, but that doesn't mean they have equal chances. That's what getting Spring Man means. That Nintendo has proven having an old role is not a death sentence. Their chances slightly rise by this factor, but how much it rises beyond about 1% depends upon other factors too. Different games coming out, etc. Right now, there is no new ARMS thing coming out beyond a delayed Manga. They basically went out of nowhere to heavily promote the game far more than normal, which they loosely kept it in the spotlight.


I don't think this pattern means much either. For the first playable character in a series, it's going to be a main character or a mascot. It's why ones like Dr. Coyle seem very very possible, or Max Brass. ARMS doesn't even have an actual protagonist, so no matter who it gets, it'll be a mascot or a main character. The protagonist first rule was broken with PIkachu first(calling it more than a pattern is misleading, since it's not just because they're a protagonist. It's clearly more than that. A lot of times they're also the mascot, but more importantly, are able to do certain things other characters cannot. Sure, we've gotten unique ones too that don't accurate reflect the game like Shulk. We've gotten oddballs like Robin, a protagonist in their own right, but it was the protagonist of the series as a whole who started off FE, being Marth). We also have to remember that Hero coming first wasn't that simple. Sakurai directly noted he would've used Slime if Hero was unavailable and he had to use Slime instead. He still likes protagonists too(though specifically Nintendo chose Hero in this case), but it's misleading that it's some kind of rule. It's always context-dependent.


Yeah, this has nothing to do with me. I never said anything suggesting things can't be changed up. I'm an extremely open mind in a lot of cases. I don't think it has to be a protagonist or mascot first. But if it's not a main character in the game otherwise, it's vastly unrealistic. There's only 4 ARMS characters I think have a ghost of a chance with ARMS 1 only in mind; Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Max Brass, Dr. Coyle. Main characters and Mascots. Again, there's no legitimate protagonists in ARMS to go off of. So no matter what, we wouldn't be getting one. If it's meant to advertise ARMS 2, where there is a set protagonist, it'd still be a character from the first game anyway, but that's the only way possible, and they still have yet to advertise the idea a new game is coming. It's possible, but a stretch to try and keep that rule intact about protagonists.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, that's why it doesn't change anything you said.

The only thing I will disagree on is Max Brass or Dr. Coyle being likely for the ARMS pick. ARMS may not have a "protagonist", but Spring Man or Ribbon Girl are absolutely the co-cover mascots. Spring Man especially was a focal point of not only the comic, but also the promo materials when they revealed the game originally.
--
Actually, I'll add a bit more.

I've never said it was strictly "protagonist first". I said, "protagonist OR mascot is usually first", which is true for every single series in Smash. It is also true of every unique entry within series in Smash. Every single Fire Emblem character is the protagonist of their respective game. Pikachu is the de facto mascot of Pokemon. Lucario was largely "the Pokemon" of Gen 4. Those are things we can verify.

As far as Hero, that seems to actually fit my point. Mascot (Slime) OR Protagonist (Hero). That fits it perfectly.

There has never been a game that has started their Smash playable debut with a character that wasn't a "protagonist" or "mascot", but that in itself makes sense...Smash is a mascot crossover, and typically mascots are incredibly popular and can be easily tied to their game of origin.

Now, that's not to say ARMS wouldn't be the first to buck that trend, but I'm not convinced that it will. If anything, to me, it's Spring Man or Min-Min.

I don't know where the argument of "mascot OR protagonist" was misconstrued to be only "protagonist" or only "mascot" but I am quite confident I was not the one to say that. I've always been of the mind that it's "mascot OR protagonist" because that's 100% of what all Smash inclusions have been for the first character in a franchise with new playable representation, as well as every non-veteran, non-Piranha Plant DLC pick between Smash Wii U and Smash Ultimate.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I can at least see the justification of Dark Samus having one of Samus's suits and DNA making her able to do anything she does.

To me, Dixie pulling out the same weapons as Diddy when she has never done so would feel as out of place as Ganondorf still being a Captain Falcon pseudo-clone or Daisy using Toads for attacks.

The only things that would NEED changing for accuracy is Diddy's rapid jab and the up b, which fans often already suggest to replace in case she's an echo. Acrobatics? There's no reason why she can't do that. Banana peels? Idem ditto. The peanut popgun? Tropical Freeze gave her a bubblegum popgun. I genuinely don't understand what's so wrong here

 

[Guynamednelson]

Diddy's rapid jab

Which he got rid of anyway.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which he got rid of anyway.

Nobody I know plays Diddy so I keep forgetting that. Which if anything only strengthens the argument that a Dixie echo works fine

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I disagree that that's the case. Even a spirit promotion would qualify as new content as it's still a new playable character. But this is just semantics so eh.

People have this silly idea new content means "wasn't there before in any form". It's better to be clear on that kind of situation. Besides, sometimes these specifications do matter. Some might misunderstand what your point is if you're even slightly vague, heh.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, that's why it doesn't change anything you said.

The only thing I will disagree on is Max Brass or Dr. Coyle being likely for the ARMS pick. ARMS may not have a "protagonist", but Spring Man or Ribbon Girl are absolutely the co-cover mascots. Spring Man especially was a focal point of not only the comic, but also the promo materials when they revealed the game originally.

Max Brass and Dr. Coyle are majorly important characters to the game. That puts them as possible. Not cause of the lack of Spirits/AT's, but because they also represent the game just as well as the mascots. If they weren't a main character, I'd throw them very low. But they are definitely main characters. The only two of note I wouldn't even call high on the list of possible is Min Min and Twintelle, since "just being popular" isn't enough. There's way more to it than that. Ignoring alt ideas, anyway, and even then, despite the characters clearly having the same build and being possible as alts, Sakurai may not include more than Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Springtron at most(and possibly not even Ribbon Girl). Springtron would in this case be a similar thing to Dark Samus, but as an alt, if you will.

Though I don't think having an AT/Spirit is a big deal for Spring Man/Ribbon Girl being possible, Sakurai can legitimately deny the idea based upon that alone. I don't think he will, but he does have his own interpretation of the game series. And he's given enough power to deny a character, as long as it's logical. That's pretty much what his article is saying about it too.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

People have this silly idea new content means "wasn't there before". It's better to be clear on that kind of situation.


Max Brass and Dr. Coyle are majorly important characters to the game. That puts them as possible. Not cause of the lack of Spirits/AT's, but because they also represent the game just as well as the mascots. If they weren't a main character, I'd throw them very low. But they are definitely main characters. The only two of note I wouldn't even call high on the list of possible is Min Min and Twintelle, since "just being popular" isn't enough. There's way more to it than that. Ignoring alt ideas, anyway, and even then, despite the characters clearly having the same build and being possible as alts, Sakurai may not include more than Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Springtron at most(and possibly not even Ribbon Girl). Springtron would in this case be a similar thing to Dark Samus, but as an alt, if you will.

Though I don't think having an AT/Spirit is a big deal for Spring Man/Ribbon Girl being possible, Sakurai can legitimately deny the idea based upon that alone. I don't think he will, but he does have his own interpretation of the game series. And he's given enough power to deny a character, as long as it's logical. That's pretty much what his article is saying about it too.

By that train of logic, wouldn't Ghirahim be playable? He's arguably one of the most important Zelda characters in the franchise.

Importance to the plot hasn't notably contributed to a character getting in aside from them, again, being a mascot or protagonist in some capacity within the franchise. This is even applies to other characters considered for playability. Alucard, another character Sakurai considered but decided against, is a major protagonist of the Castlevania series. If Alucard were playable, the point of "protagonist" or "mascot" first would still be applicable.

As I edited in after you responded, it doesn't mean ARMS can't buck the trend. But I'm not convinced plot importance is going to get either of those two in when it hasn't seemed to help other highly important characters become playable.

 

[Digital Hazard]

And again, Dark Samus with her absent lasers and doubles n' stuff, Daisy with her non-relation to Toads, etc. Really, she'd work just fine. That's also not to say that she couldn't have a few hair based attacks, even as an Echo Fighter, but she isn't so unique from Diddy Kong that they absolutely wouldn't do it.

Don't get me wrong though, even if she were to be an Echo Fighter, she needs her unique abilities to be on display or, like you, I wouldn't want her.

The only things that would NEED changing for accuracy is Diddy's rapid jab and the up b, which fans often already suggest to replace in case she's an echo. Acrobatics? There's no reason why she can't do that. Banana peels? Idem ditto. The peanut popgun? Tropical Freeze gave her a bubblegum popgun. I genuinely don't understand what's so wrong here

I mean, at this point, you guys are agreeing she'd be a pseudo-clone instead of a full blown Echo.

"But Chrom!" Chrom only has one different special, everything else is still copy and pasted from Roy.

Ken is the only anomaly who is a pseudo-clone while being an Echo but I guess that's just a label for being the Echo Fighter and is similar enough that he still gets most of the same patch changes as Ryu, something all Echoes share to their parent characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

By that train of logic, wouldn't Ghirahim be playable?

Honestly, he's at least someone worth looking at.

Importance to the plot hasn't notably contributed to a character getting in aside from them, again, being a mascot or protagonist in some capacity within the franchise. This is even applies to other characters considered for playability. Alucard, another character Sakurai considered but decided against, is a major protagonist of the Castlevania series. If Alucard were playable, the point of "protagonist" or "mascot" first would still be applicable.

This is kind of ignoring the actual point I was making of why a main character can be chosen, not just usually protagonist/mascot first. Yes, the "base game roles" seems a silly reason why even for me, but the thing is, how silly is it for Sakurai either? While I do think Spirits are overrated in how important they are, they aren't just trophies either. They're trophies that represent gameplay factors beyond collection, so it's worth noting they have an increased role from regular trophies. As much as I dislike the "but Mewtwo and Lucas were veterans" reply too, that may not be nearly that off. But even then, trophies are not equivalent to spirits. And I don't think spirits nor AT's disconfirm inherently, but I can't deny it's plausible for Sakurai to deny a character based upon the idea he finds them already represented adequately. Note that I don't include Mii Costumes since they're supposed to be fun replicas of the characters, some costumes better than others, but not important representations of them the same way a Spirit or AT is.

As I edited in after you responded, it doesn't mean ARMS can't buck the trend. But I'm not convinced plot importance is going to get either of those two in when it hasn't seemed to help other highly important characters become playable.

I'm not remotely convinced being the mascot is the only thing plausible for ARMS. The only thing convincing is how important they are for the series in general. That's the only reason why a mascot even has a chance. If they weren't important at all, they'd never be chosen.

They need to be important to the series is the core factor I've always seen from it. I feel that simplification is significantly more accurate.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean, at this point, you guys are agreeing she'd be a pseudo-clone instead of a full blown Echo.

"But Chrom!" Chrom only has one different special, everything else is still copy and pasted from Roy.

Ken is the only anomaly who is a pseudo-clone while being an Echo but I guess that's just a label for being the Echo Fighter and is similar enough that he still gets most of the same patch changes as Ryu, something all Echoes share to their parent characters.

I mean, Chrom still had changed animations, not to mention that I've been corrected that the only move Dixie could not feasibly use is up b as the rapidjab was taken out. That's a single move

 

[Digital Hazard]

I mean, Chrom still had changed animations, not to mention that I've been corrected that the only move Dixie could not feasibly use is up b as the rapidjab was taken out. That's a single move

Attacks are still the same, only adjusted to the whole "no sweetspot or fire effects"

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Attacks are still the same, only adjusted to the whole "no sweetspot or fire effects"

Chrom and Roy hold their swords differently, Roy uses a reverse grip, Chrom does not, and I'm not sure you realize this, but that took a surprising amount of effort, arguably more than the changes Dixie would need

 

[Koopaul]

Sakurai's "New Worlds" comment was a mistranslation. He was originally talking about expanding the world of Smash, which is much more vague about that world will expand.

My understanding of what Sakurai said in the livestream portion is this:
"just by adding one character, we can expand the world of Smash".

It's not clear cut if the additional characters will be from new IPs or not in my opinion. I ask two translator friends and they agreed. pic.twitter.com/ZeIHgzT6RR

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) September 5, 2019

I think that regardless of what Sakurai says, we should just look at the nature of the Fighters Pass and come to realize what the implications of a Challenger Pack is.

What I mean is that we aren't just getting a DLC fighter. We are getting a whole package that comes with a stage, and music, and spirits. The fighter is just one piece of the puzzle, and is supposed to be a representative of some series or game.

Don't believe me? Each trailer for theses fighters ends with "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Persona 5" or "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Banjo-Kazooie" or "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Fire Emblem Three Houses". It's about more than just a fighter. It's an entire game or series.

So with that said characters like Bandana Dee or Waluigi probably won't happen. Those characters aren't a representative of any particular game or series on their own. If Bandana Dee was to be in a Challenger Pack, what stage would he come with? What Spirits? Would it just be arbitrary Kirby stuff? What about Waluigi? What Spirits or music would he come with? You need to start asking that. If you can't come up with a good answer then they probably aren't a good candidate for a Challenger Pack.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Chrom and Roy hold their swords differently, Roy uses a reverse grip, Chrom does not, and I'm not sure you realize this, but that took a surprising amount of effort, arguably more than the changes Dixie would need

Animations are still almost the same, rather than fully different.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think that regardless of what Sakurai says, we should just look at the nature of the Fighters Pass and come to realize what the implications of a Challenger Pack is.

What I mean is that we aren't just getting a DLC fighter. We are getting a whole package that comes with a stage, and music, and spirits. The fighter is just one piece of the puzzle, and is supposed to be a representative of some series or game.

Don't believe me? Each trailer for theses fighters ends with "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Persona 5" or "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Banjo-Kazooie" or "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Fire Emblem Three Houses". It's about more than just a fighter. It's an entire game or series.

So with that said characters like Bandana Dee or Waluigi probably won't happen. Those characters aren't a representative of any particular game or series on their own. If Bandana Dee was to be in a Challenger Pack, what stage would he come with? What Spirits? Would it just be arbitrary Kirby stuff? What about Waluigi? What Spirits or music would he come with? You need to start asking that. If you can't come up with a good answer then they probably aren't a good candidate for a Challenger Pack.

if anything they could be Individual DLC like PP. that is, if they decide to make more Individual DLC

what's your take on Elma (Xenoblade Chronicles X) or Octoling (Splatoon 2 Octo Expansion) for example though? The former represents a totally different world in the Xenoblade series while the latter is technically the same world but a different setting and perspective. They have a selection of characters that can be used as Spirits for their "worlds" too (Irina, Gwin, other X characters for Elma, and Iso Padre, CQ Cumber and [SPOILER REDACTED] for Octoling)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Animations are still almost the same, rather than fully different.

This doesn't prove why Dixie can't work though, not to mention you're implying changing every attack animation is a small feat

 

[Goombaic]

what stage would he come with?

Let's not forget the obligatory very weirdly intricate stage cameos that every stage in Ultimate has so far that Sakurai loves pointing out.

"Look at the run cycle we made for this character that you'll ignore every time you play on this stage."

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

They need to be important to the series is the core factor I've always seen from it. I feel that simplification is significantly more accurate.

I mean, sure, most mascots/protagonists are inherently important to their series. But the concept that mascot/protagonist comes first is...backed by the main roster, essentially 100%.

Both can be true. I just happen to see more evidence of the "protagonist/mascot" (which, technically, Spring Man is the focus of the graphic novel iirc, as well as the focus of the promo materials) when it comes to Smash. It's a mascot crossover, so it makes logical sense that the character seen as the "mascot" or "protagonist" is chosen first.

Lastly, if story importance were really that large of a point, I think we could have easily seen Edelgard over Byleth, considering the Three Houses story doesn't happen without Edelgard's backstory and actions within the game. Byleth plays a pivotal part as well, but the game literally doesn't happen with Edelgard doing what she does. That said, Nintendo chose Byleth.

But eh, I'll leave it there. It would be posting in circles to continue.
--
Actually, last thought. I appreciate that you structure your arguments and it's not just, "I think this" and leaving it there. It's been good chatting!

 

[Digital Hazard]

This doesn't prove why Dixie can't work though, not to mention you're implying changing every attack animation is a small feat

Again, not saying Dixie wouldn't borrow stuff from Diddy, even I can't deny she'd have to, just that by virtue being different enough to change some moves she'd be a pseudo-clone rather than a full blown Echo.

 

[Dinoman96]

So with that said characters like Bandana Dee or Waluigi probably won't happen. Those characters aren't a representative of any particular game or series on their own. If Bandana Dee was to be in a Challenger Pack, what stage would he come with? What Spirits? Would it just be arbitrary Kirby stuff? What about Waluigi? What Spirits or music would he come with? You need to start asking that. If you can't come up with a good answer then they probably aren't a good candidate for a Challenger Pack.

Honestly, this one old ResetERA post has a pretty funny idea for Waluigi

 

[Digital Hazard]

Lastly, if story importance were really that large of a point, I think we could have easily seen Edelgard over Byleth, considering the Three Houses story doesn't happen without Edelgard's backstory and actions within the game. Byleth plays a pivotal part as well, but the game literally doesn't happen with Edelgard doing what she does. That said, Nintendo chose Byleth.

imo you could even argue for Rhea in that case.

It is because of her that Fodlan is the way it is, and the main reason why Sothis is inside Byleth, not to mention she becomes the main antagonist of a route and is the main focus of another one.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Again, not saying Dixie wouldn't borrow stuff from Diddy, even I can't deny she'd have to, just that by virtue being different enough to change some moves she'd be a pseudo-clone rather than a full blown Echo.

It's literally only a single move though

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

The only things that would NEED changing for accuracy is Diddy's rapid jab and the up b, which fans often already suggest to replace in case she's an echo. Acrobatics? There's no reason why she can't do that. Banana peels? Idem ditto. The peanut popgun? Tropical Freeze gave her a bubblegum popgun. I genuinely don't understand what's so wrong here

Not that Dixie would absolutely need these things in Smash but she usually grabs barrels and stuff with her hair so i guess it would make sense to give her a different grab (or at least a different animation for her grab). She also carries barrels above her head like DK so even giving her a cargo throw wouldn't be too crazy imo.

Also the dash attack, Diddy does a cartwheel and she does a 360, at least in DKC2 and 3 (idk about Tropical Freeze).

Btw, i'm not trying to say she couldn't be an echo or anything, just adding some info to the pile.

 

[Cosmic77]

Dixie is a character I'd be willing to wait for. If I had a choice between adding her in Ultimate as an Echo or putting her off until the next game when she'll be unique, I'd probably choose the latter.

Unlike Dark Samus or Chrom, there's really no urgency to add her as soon as possible. She's almost guaranteed to appear again in a future DK game, and there isn't a rotating cast that will replace her.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, sure, most mascots/protagonists are inherently important to their series. But the concept that mascot/protagonist comes first is...backed by the main roster, essentially 100%.

I don't think the pattern is enough to convince me it's the only plausible way. I still am going to treat Max Brass and Dr. Coyle as possible because they're massively important. In addition, there's going to be some series where choosing one of the main antagonists is fairly realistic anyway. Nightmare(Soul Calibur), Fulgore(Killer Instinct), and Heihachi(Tekken) are 3 good examples. While they are mascots, it's the fact they're also antagonists that is important. Then you otherwise have Scorpion(who has yet to be really a protagonist, last I checked). It kind of goes that way. I get they're all mascots, but Scorpion took a long-ass time to be treated as that, and he was still treated very important before the mascot status came up. Sub-Zero got a protagonist role before him, even. Scorpion's never had his own actual game directly despite this. Some mascots do, some don't(and I mean mascots who weren't also protagonists from the start like Mario and Link).

Both can be true. I just happen to see more evidence of the "protagonist/mascot" (which, technically, Spring Man is the focus of the graphic novel iirc, as well as the focus of the promo materials) when it comes to Smash. It's a mascot crossover, so it makes logical sense that the character seen as the "mascot" or "protagonist" is chosen first.

The graphic novel is a tiny thing, just like the comic Captain Falcon had. It's not enough to call him the core protagonist whatsoever. He might not even be the protagonist in the manga later down the line. The original blurb yes, but anything can change. ARMS has no protagonist(closest is Max Brass, and that's only for his backstory, and he doesn't fit a protagonist or antagonist role either overall). ARMS solely has two mascots and an antagonist at the time of being chosen for a character. I don't see any real evidence that the mascots are in a good spot either. They already have major in-game roles, which so far, have never been changed for DLC. It's just as much of a pattern as the protagonist/mascot first concept. It goes both ways.

Lastly, if story importance were really that large of a point, I think we could have easily seen Edelgard over Byleth, considering the Three Houses story doesn't happen without Edelgard's backstory and actions within the game. Byleth plays a pivotal part as well, but the game literally doesn't happen with Edelgard doing what she does. That said, Nintendo chose Byleth.

Byleth is a main character too. So this doesn't counter my point in any way.

But eh, I'll leave it there. It would be posting in circles to continue.
--
Actually, last thought. I appreciate that you structure your arguments and it's not just, "I think this" and leaving it there. It's been good chatting!

Right. Regardless, I'm not convinced it's anything but "important character to the series" as the core criteria for the first character. Patterns aren't enough to convince me as is.

 

[Speed Weed]

I think that regardless of what Sakurai says, we should just look at the nature of the Fighters Pass and come to realize what the implications of a Challenger Pack is.

What I mean is that we aren't just getting a DLC fighter. We are getting a whole package that comes with a stage, and music, and spirits. The fighter is just one piece of the puzzle, and is supposed to be a representative of some series or game.

Don't believe me? Each trailer for theses fighters ends with "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Persona 5" or "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Banjo-Kazooie" or "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate × Fire Emblem Three Houses". It's about more than just a fighter. It's an entire game or series.

So with that said characters like Bandana Dee or Waluigi probably won't happen. Those characters aren't a representative of any particular game or series on their own. If Bandana Dee was to be in a Challenger Pack, what stage would he come with? What Spirits? Would it just be arbitrary Kirby stuff? What about Waluigi? What Spirits or music would he come with? You need to start asking that. If you can't come up with a good answer then they probably aren't a good candidate for a Challenger Pack.

i mean, it seems to me that you're pretty much saying that there's no potential stages, music or whatever else left from those series which just plain isn't true

for example

waluigi could easily come with, say, waluigi pinball or mario tennis. there's tons of potential mario stages but those are the two that i feel would best suit him

and for the music? there's still tons left! for example, we don't have much music from non-kart mario sports games or the earlier 2D marios like 64 and sunshine. there's still many, many jams left to add from mario kart or the newer 3D outings too.

and for bandana dee? hoo boy, i'm sure we're all familiar with the relative lack of any modern kirby songs and the complete lack of remixes for those. we barely have any music from the dark matter trilogy either

and for stages? just from the modern games, we have lollipop land, resolution road, access ark, the location of the final battle with sectonia, the billiards area from robobot, nutty noon, etc... and if you want to continue sticking to the sakurai games for whatever reason, there's still the arena, a potential milky way wishes stage, butter building, city trial...

i'll admit i had a bit of a hard time with spirits, but it's not like we don't have anything to pull out. for waluigi, i unironically like the idea of the whole spirit board being just different waluigis and for bandana dee, you got adeleine, taranza and a number of kirby bosses and villains who still don't have spirits

see, this is why i never really got the "the structure of challenger packs counts out characters from series already represented" argument. it basically runs on the assumption that there's absolutely nothing left to add from those series which, as i just showcased, isn't true

and if the simple premise of crossing over with new franchises or games is enough to get them outta here....well that certainly wasn't a problem for arms, now was it?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Dixie is a character I'd be willing to wait for. If I had a choice between adding her in Ultimate as an Echo or putting her off until the next game when she'll be unique, I'd probably choose the latter.

Unlike Dark Samus or Chrom, there's really no urgency to add her as soon as possible. She's almost guaranteed to appear again in a future DK game, and there isn't a rotating cast that will replace her.

Meh, I don't like the idea of "putting off" characters in general. This is the last time we'll be able to have every single veteran in the entire series come back. I'd rather be able to have Dixie fighting Banjo, Cloud, Pichu, Snake, etc, over some moveset purity. Especially with the install base of Ultimate as large as it is and the Switch being so successful, it would certainly be a much longer time before the next Smash (which would inevitably have cuts), compared to the length between Smash 4 and Ultimate. It just doesn't feel like an Ultimate Smash without her.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm essentially all in with this game. That's why I hope they push the crossover to the max, considering it may never be able to happen again.

While I love Smash, and it's my favorite game ever, what has really drawn me to Ultimate is the roster. I will always love Smash gameplay, and honestly, I may be excited to see who ends up in the next Smash, but this is, basically, the last one I'm planning on investing time speculating about.

That is basically why I don't talk too much about future Smash games. I definitely won't have the same interest simply because the crossover won't be nearly as big which is a shame. Ultimate truly brings some of the best characters and series in the industry together at the same time. No other game can bring me a crossover of Mario, Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, and Simon Belmont on Spiral Mountain. As a guy who has played so many different games over the span of many years, this game is just amazing.

Assuming a sequel to Ultimate would effectively cut out many of the things that have made Wii U and Ultimate really rise above the rest (Wii U gameplay is ass, but the roster choices were solid), and the fact that there are probably not that many newcomers that would be hype for me personally in the next game, it seems like a proper time to just take that step out from speculating for the game.

 

[TheHeartbreakKid]

Echo pack ideas? Let's get it!

Zack for Cloud (it's only right)
Jeanne for Bayonetta
Liquid for Snake
Ms. Pac-Man (she needs to be in, damnit!)
Metal Sonic for Sonic
Doc Louis for Little Mac

(I'd hope that Metal Sonic and Doc could then hold onto those movesets for the next Smash, and Sakurai could just finally give Mac and Sonic their desperately-needed overhauls)