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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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zeldasmash

Smash Lord
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I'm essentially all in with this game. That's why I hope they push the crossover to the max, considering it may never be able to happen again.

While I love Smash, and it's my favorite game ever, what has really drawn me to Ultimate is the roster. I will always love Smash gameplay, and honestly, I may be excited to see who ends up in the next Smash, but this is, basically, the last one I'm planning on investing time speculating about.

That is essentially why I don't talk too much about future Smash games. I definitely won't have the same interest simply because the crossover won't be nearly as big which is a shame. Ultimate truly brings some of the best characters and series in the industry together at the same time. No other game can bring me a crossover of Mario, Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, and Simon Belmont on Spiral Mountain. As a guy who has played so many different games over the span of many years, this game is just amazing.

Assuming a sequel to Ultimate would essentially cut out many of the things that have made Wii U and Ultimate really rise above the rest (Wii U gameplay is ass, but the roster choices were solid), and the fact that there are probably not that many newcomers that would be hype for me personally in the next game, it seems like a proper time to just take that step out from speculating for the game.
Yeah...even Sakurai asked himself "where the hell do we go from here?" because he knows he outdid himself with the roster this game offers. It's why I'm perfectly content if this game just gets ported and it gets new content with future ports. Because there really is no way you can top:

:ultmario: vs :ultsonic: vs :ultsnake: vs :ultpacman: vs :ultsimon: vs :ultryu: vs :ultjoker: vs :ultmegaman: or :ultlink: vs :ult_terry: vs :ultcloud: vs :ultsamus: vs :ulthero4:vs :ultken: vs :ultfalcon: vs :ultrichter: on something like Big Blue or Dracula's Castle while jamming out to Last Surprise, Breath of the Wild's Presentation Trailer Theme, MGS4's Theme of Love, Cross Your Heart, Psycho Soldier or Let the Battles Begin!

It just can't be replicated. This is lightning in a bottle and the best thing to do would be to experiment with it rather then let it out of the bottle.
 
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Cosmic77

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Meh, I don't like the idea of "putting off" characters in general. This is the last time we'll be able to have every single veteran in the entire series come back. I'd rather be able to have Dixie fighting Banjo, Cloud, Pichu, Snake, etc, over some moveset purity. Especially with the install base of Ultimate as large as it is and the Switch being so successful, it would certainly be a much longer time before the next Smash (which would inevitably have cuts), compared to the length between Smash 4 and Ultimate. It just doesn't feel like an Ultimate Smash without her.
I guess we see things differently. Personally, I think the wait would be worth it since Dixie is a character I like, and I'd want the best possible moveset for her. Being an Echo wouldn't do her justice.

I get why people want Sakurai to cram in as many fan-favorites in Ultimate as possible, but unless the character is very unlikely to make it in future installments, I'd be willing to wait for a better moveset at the expense of that character not being able to fight Cloud, Banjo, etc.

My point would probably be easier to understand if I compared Dixie to Ganondorf. Imagine if he had never been added in Melee. Looking back, would you have been willing to wait until Brawl if it meant he wouldn't be remotely close to Captain Falcon?
 
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SKX31

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My point would probably be easier to understand if I compared Dixie to Ganondorf. Imagine if he had never been added in Melee. Looking back, would you have been willing to wait until Brawl if it meant he wouldn't be remotely close to Captain Falcon?
I know you aren't asking me, but I'll share my thoughts on the matter: On one hand a unique Ganon would perhaps be more interesting, what with having perhaps a more interesting moveset and so on.

On the other hand, I'll always associate current Ganondorf with massive amounts of overkill. Moments like this:


It's tough, but in this case I think I'll go with current Ganon. Depends on the character IMHO really.
 

GoodGrief741

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I know you aren't asking me, but I'll share my thoughts on the matter: On one hand a unique Ganon would perhaps be more interesting, what with having perhaps a more interesting moveset and so on.

On the other hand, I'll always associate current Ganondorf with massive amounts of overkill. Moments like this:


It's tough, but in this case I think I'll go with current Ganon. Depends on the character IMHO really.
This current Ganon still took us five games to get to, and massive demand for fans to give him his sword.
 

Dark Bagel

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I had a pretty spectacular experience the other day. The newest showcase video for challenger pack 6 was unveiled, and within it the ARMS fighter was interestingly revealed to be a 4-in-1 composite of Ninjara, Min Min, Spring Man... and - to my utter glee - LOLA POP.

I was ecstatic. I was running victory laps throughout my house like an absolute madman, thrilled to see my impossible-pick-of-choice take center stage. I witnessed the crazy and unique gameplay style this new fighter showed-off, switching ARM types mid-battle and demonstrating INCREDIBLE attack range. I saw things such as idle animations, voice lines, and victory animations all differ noticeably between each character, with the development team making sure their individual traits and quirks were accurately represented. The trailer ended off with Lola taking an extravagant bow alongside her ARMS co-stars, and I was enthralled with feelings of joy.

And then I woke up.

Yep. That's right. I've been goofed-on by my own subconscious mind. Looks like I was the real clown in this scenario. Yippee.

BagelGetsClowned2DOWNSIZED1.png
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I mean, at this point, you guys are agreeing she'd be a pseudo-clone instead of a full blown Echo.

"But Chrom!" Chrom only has one different special, everything else is still copy and pasted from Roy.

Ken is the only anomaly who is a pseudo-clone while being an Echo but I guess that's just a label for being the Echo Fighter and is similar enough that he still gets most of the same patch changes as Ryu, something all Echoes share to their parent characters.
You're still conflating what could be done with what needs to be done. It's the same dissonance that was in the previous two arguments of this nature.

  • Could Dixie Kong be made as an Echo Fighter of Diddy Kong without anything seeming off?
    • Absolutely yes. She fits even better than the likes of Daisy because she has been shown to use all of Diddy Kong's abilities at some point (except Banana Peel, but the move is based on an aspect of the character that Diddy Kong shares with all of the Kongs, so it would naturally fit her as well).
  • Would doing so strip her of her unique qualities, and thus be a bad portrayal?
    • Still yes. Regardless of whether or not Dixie Kong using Diddy Kong's moveset in full would be fitting, it ignores what makes her so special.
  • If we're to make her an Echo Fighter, can we still give her her unique traits?
    • Once again, yes. Even if we were to assume that Nintendo lied to us, and that Ken is a semi-clone rather than an Echo Fighter, we have characters that prove that even just attribute changes can make all the difference. Dark Pit's Silver Bow and Electroshock Arm give him slightly different options than Pit, and Lucina is objectively better than Marth, and Chrom's better hitboxes and worse recovery compared to Roy give the player an actually meaningful decision on who to pick. Ideally, all of them should be like Chrom, and a hypothetical Dixie Kong Echo Fighter should be like this as well. Heck, replace her Up Special and Down Special with her equivalent to Spinning Kong and Cargo Throw and you'll already have something interesting going on.
    • What ties this together is that we're arguing for Echo Fighter status rather than alternate costume status (I would not argue that she should be an alternate costume of Diddy Kong), and that Dixie Kong is very similar to Diddy Kong in the first place so having the same base would not inherently be a bad thing.
 

Mushroomguy12

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My point would probably be easier to understand if I compared Dixie to Ganondorf. Imagine if he had never been added in Melee. Looking back, would you have been willing to wait until Brawl if it meant he wouldn't be remotely close to Captain Falcon?
Easy to ask that question now, since we've had Brawl for more than a decade and know everything about the game. We have no idea what holds for the future of the Smash series in terms of what content would come back or and what would not, so I don't feel the situations are the same.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I had a pretty spectacular experience the other day. The newest showcase video for challenger pack 6 was unveiled, and within it the ARMS fighter was interestingly revealed to be a 4-in-1 composite of Ninjara, Min Min, Spring Man... and - to my utter glee - LOLA POP.

I was ecstatic. I was running victory laps throughout my house like an absolute madman, thrilled to see my impossible-pick-of-choice take center stage. I witnessed the crazy and unique gameplay style this new fighter showed-off, switching ARM types mid-battle and demonstrating INCREDIBLE attack range. I saw things such as idle animations, voice lines, and victory animations all differ noticeably between each character, with the development team making sure their individual traits and quirks were accurately represented. The trailer ended off with Lola taking an extravagant bow alongside her ARMS co-stars, and I was enthralled with feelings of joy.

And then I woke up.

Yep. That's right. I've been goofed-on by my own subconscious mind. Looks like I was the real clown in this scenario. Yippee.
Universe: "Oh hey! We gave you exactly what you wanted even though it's unrealistic!"
Also Universe: "Ha! Psyyyyyych!"
*Sound of Silence plays in the background*


EDIT: Also, nice art!
 
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SNEKeater

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Sakurai likely wouldn't make Dixie a Echo because of this all. Dark Samus is just more Echo material than Dixie. Dixie just has way too many defining abilities for her to be a Echo. Sure Dark Samus could've been more more unique, but like Pit and Dark Pit, Dark Samus is a literal clone of Samus, and thus has acces to the same basic abilities as Samus. Dixie doesn't share this with Diddy, not in the slightest. This is also why I didn't list Dixie as one of my chosen Echoes.
I mean, I'm all for Dixie Kong joining Smash. She's one of my most wanted characters when it comes to first party options. She could be an unique character, that's for sure, but it's not that crazy to suggest her as an echo fighter, honestly.

Yeah, Dark Samus is, at least in certain sense, a clone of Samus, but that doesn't mean she uses all the same attacks and abilities of Samus in the Prime games, as someone clarified before. I've played the Prime trilogy and all the DK Country games, and as far as I remember I'd say Dixie has less unique moves or attacks than Dark Samus.

Dixie is one of those characters that could go both ways if you ask me, especially when we have characters such as Ganondorf in the game. Dixie being an echo, while not the ideal scenario, it isn't impossible.
Certainly, besides moveset and abilities, Dixie and Dark Samus had different circumstances. For Dark Samus it was pretty much now or never, and getting in now meant being an echo fighter. If for some reason Sakurai decided to not put Ridley in the game then I could see Dark Samus having an unique moveset.

And of course, this is just speculation on my part but if Dixie was added in Ultimate I bet she would be an echo. That is, assuming that K. Rool would be still picked. I don't see 2 unique newcomers for Metroid or DK being added in a single game, a game that only had 5 completely new characters in base roster.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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It may seem repetitive at this point, but something just occurred to me about that earlier Sakurai quote I posted. I'll quote it here:

"My business trips have also been restricted by the influence of the novel coronavirus. Long distance trips have been especially difficult to put together. For example, my trips to Nintendo in Kyoto. Trips to other companies have been problematic, too. Planning new fighters, presenting to publishers, and having meetings have all been indefinitely postponed. Business at our office have been continuing as usual despite other businesses closing."- Mr. Sakurai
Earlier, I pointed out the part about "other companies" and how that could potentially point to more 3rd parties. However, I missed the more important point here with the wording.

Here's the thing...not every gaming company is also a gaming publisher. For example, while Intelligent Systems is a game development company, they do not publish their own games. Nintendo publishes those games.

Based on a brief internet search, here are some gaming industry publishers:
1. Nintendo
2. Koei Tecmo
3. Capcom
4. Bandai/Namco
5. Activision/Blizzard
6. Bethesda Softworks
7. Microsoft
8. The Pokemon Company (joint through Nintendo, not sure how that works entirely)
9. Atlus
10. Arc System Works
11. Ubisoft
12. Square Enix
Why am I posting this? Well, it's quite simple. Even if we might say, "Well, even if he said ' different companies' he could mean Intelligent Systems, Game Freak, and Monolith Soft!" That's all good and dandy, but pairing that with "publishers" tells us more.

Basically, Nintendo publishes the games of the developers who make their games. They publish Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Mario, Splatoon, Zelda, Donkey Kong, Kirby, etc. However, they don't publish titles like Devil May Cry, Tekken, Tales of, NieR, Ace Attorney, Monster Hunter, etc...

So what's my point? My point is that this is actually what points to more than one other company. It should be noted in the wording that the "publishers" is separate from Nintendo in the way that this was translated. An error? I'm not so sure, as it seems like it's totally independent.

Nintendo is a publisher, yes. But when Sakurai mentioned traveling to "other companies" and "presenting to publishers", it should also be noted that Capcom, Namco/Bandai, Square Enix, and many others develop AND publish their own games. Basically, Sakurai cannot simply talk to Nintendo publishers if he wants, for example, Phoenix Wright. He has to go to Capcom as they are the publisher.

This probably sounds annoying, but I feel it's actually interesting to point this out: Based on the wording, it could very well mean that we actually have publishers, plural, outside of Nintendo, which suggests more than one non-Nintendo published game. In other words, more than 1 additional 3rd party among the last 5 characters is a real possibility.

Thank you for reading my Jonespost.
 
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Cosmic77

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A lot of people make this mistake. Sakurai has a tendency to choose newer Pokemon and Pokemon who GF believes will be popular, but his choices aren't necessarily intended to be promotional.

That's why it's important to look at other factors like moveset potential, anime/movie appearances, and when applicable, popularity. We don't know how Nintendo themselves would approach this, but we at least know Sakurai doesn't base his decisions solely on promotion.
 

MooMew64

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Been a bit since I've been here, but seeing as how the ARMS fighter could literally drop any day now, might as well chime in that I personally think it's gonna be Min Min or Spring Man. Personally hoping for Min Min, buuuuuut I can't deny Spring Man would be heckin' hilarious and would mean very, very interesting things for the future.
 

SKX31

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This current Ganon still took us five games to get to, and massive demand for fans to give him his sword.
I know. That said: there are a lot of people who liked (semi)-clone Ganondorf before Ultimate. Players like Kage and BizarroFlame showed that Ganondorf can be an overwhelming force in the right hands, sword or not (and the two became popular because of that). Ganondorf also became known as "the overkill character" because of his extremely hard-hitting moves and montage videos. Sure, the general sentiment was "Please, just de-clone him a bit", but he was viewed as a fun character to watch too (Not really play against online, though). The sword was welcomed (the sword does add to the "Overkill" status too), that said.

The question is going to wind up with different answers because of personal preferences and as Mushroomguy12 Mushroomguy12 said, with different timing. Again, I'm a competitive nut, I love watching BizarroFlame's :ganondorfmelee: and Nairo's :ultganondorf: hit people like trucks.

Been a bit since I've been here, but seeing as how the ARMS fighter could literally drop any day now, might as well chime in that I personally think it's gonna be Min Min or Spring Man. Personally hoping for Min Min, buuuuuut I can't deny Spring Man would be heckin' hilarious and would mean very, very interesting things for the future.
Welcome back.

I'm not fussed about whichever it is. But I'm betting on Max Brass / Dr. Coyle. If not I have my hat and salt on standby.
 
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Perkilator

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If Dixie were to get in, I'd expect an Echo like:ultchrom:or an semi-clone.
Speaking of Echoes, what if Leif from Thracia 776 was :ultroy:'s Echo instead of :ultchrom:? Leif was originally planned to be in Melee, believe it or not. Here's the moveset I made for Leif:
Intro: Same as other FE characters


Stance/Idle 1: Leif somewhat mimics Lucina’s render; his left hand is clenched in a fist.


Idle 2: Leif raises his Light Brand into the air.


Idle 3: Leif points the tip of his Light Brand to the ground and slowly strokes it.



Notable Palette Swaps:
-Leif Faris Claus (default)
-Seliph Baldos Chalphy (blue)
-Quan (brown)
-Ethlyn (pink)
-Nanna (white)
-Raydrik (purple)
-Julius (red/black)
-Veld (green)


Walk: Leif slowly sidesteps forward.
Jog: Same as Roy’s.
Dash: Leif’s in-battle running animation from Thracia 776.

Damage: Same as Roy’s.
Jump: Same as Roy’s.
Crouch: Same as Roy’s.


Weapon of Choice: Light Brand; Leif’s personal weapon handed down to him by his mother, Ethlyn.


Normal Attacks
Jab: Leif slashes up and down twice (7%, small knockback), flurries with sparks of light (2%-3%, small knockback), and finishes with a down slash (8%, OK knockback)

Forward+A: Roy’s jab (8%, OK knockback)

Down+A: Same as Roy’s (9%, OK knockback)

Up+A: Same as Roy’s (11%, OK knockback)


Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Same as Roy’s (6%-7% each hit, OK knockback)

Air Forward+A: Same as Roy’s (12%, OK knockback)

Air Back + A: Same as Roy’s (11%, OK knockback)

Air Up+A: Same as Roy’s (8%, OK knockback)

Air Down+A: Same as Roy’s (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)


Dash Attack: Same as Roy’s (11%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Same as Roy’s (9%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Same as Roy’s (6%, OK knockback)


Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Leif’s Light Brand bursts with light as he thrusts it forward, in a motion similar to Marth’s Shield Breaker (21%, medium knockback)

Up+A: Same as Roy’s (22%, medium knockback)

Down+A: Same as Roy’s (11%-13% each hit, OK knockback)


Grab Game
Grab: Leif ensnares the target with Light Brand.

Pummel: Leif slashes the target (3%-5%)

Forwards+Throw: Light Brand bursts and launches the target (12%, OK knockback)

Down+Throw: Same as Roy’s (7%, small knockback)

Back+Throw: Same as Roy’s (6%, small knockback)

Up+Throw: Leif tosses the target upwards (3%, small knockback) and stabs them with a burst of light (11%, OK knockback)



Special Moves
B : Light Brand
; functionally the same as Roy’s Flare Blade (14% at normal charge, OK knockback) (38% at full charge, far knockback; 11% recoil)

B + Forwards : Blazing Light; Leif dashes forward and slashes downward in an arc of light (13%, OK knockback), and then slashes upward in a two-hit arc (8%-9% each hit, OK knockback)

B + Up : Rising Light; functionally the same as Dolphin Jump, one of Marth’s custom moves from Smash 4, but the light around Leif can deal damage (14%, OK knockback)

B + Down : Dual Counter; when hit up close, Leif surrounds himself with a burst of light that hits everyone around him (1.34x multiplied). When hit from afar, he unleashes an orb of light that spawns around the opponent and bursts (19%, medium knockback)

Final Smash: Critical Hit; Leif dashes forward and slashes (9%). Any opponents caught are surrounded by a giant orb of light, which explodes in front of a rotating triangle (55%, devastating knockback)


Gimmick: Echo Fighter to Roy, with a few differences.


Taunts
1: “We will prevail!” Leif mimics his in-game battle sprite from Thracia 776.

2: “I won’t run anymore.” Leif mimics his damage art from Fire Emblem Heroes.

1+2: “This is my fight!” Leif loosely mimics his artwork from Awakening.



Winposes
1: “I must be able to protect everyone.” Leif mimics his box art pose from Thracia 776.

2: “On my blade, I swear it!” Leif runs towards the camera (taken from his official Thracia 776 artwork) and performs a backhand slash.

3: “Father, please watch over me…” Leif looks up to the sky, kneeling on Light Brand, which is planted into the ground.


Applause: Leif gives a slight smile and claps.

Icon: The Fire Emblem series icon.

Boxing Ring Title: Unifier of Thracia

Star K.O.: “I’ve failed youuuuu….!”

Victory Music: https://youtu.be/o0l6BSZURKE

Kirby Hat: Leif’s hair.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Speaking of Echoes, what if Leif from Thracia 776 was :ultroy:'s Echo instead of :ultchrom:? Leif was originally planned to be in Melee, believe it or not. Here's the moveset I made for Leif:
Intro: Same as other FE characters


Stance/Idle 1: Leif somewhat mimics Lucina’s render; his left hand is clenched in a fist.


Idle 2: Leif raises his Light Brand into the air.


Idle 3: Leif points the tip of his Light Brand to the ground and slowly strokes it.



Notable Palette Swaps:
-Leif Faris Claus (default)
-Seliph Baldos Chalphy (blue)
-Quan (brown)
-Ethlyn (pink)
-Nanna (white)
-Raydrik (purple)
-Julius (red/black)
-Veld (green)


Walk: Leif slowly sidesteps forward.
Jog: Same as Roy’s.
Dash: Leif’s in-battle running animation from Thracia 776.

Damage: Same as Roy’s.
Jump: Same as Roy’s.
Crouch: Same as Roy’s.


Weapon of Choice: Light Brand; Leif’s personal weapon handed down to him by his mother, Ethlyn.


Normal Attacks
Jab: Leif slashes up and down twice (7%, small knockback), flurries with sparks of light (2%-3%, small knockback), and finishes with a down slash (8%, OK knockback)

Forward+A: Roy’s jab (8%, OK knockback)

Down+A: Same as Roy’s (9%, OK knockback)

Up+A: Same as Roy’s (11%, OK knockback)


Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Same as Roy’s (6%-7% each hit, OK knockback)

Air Forward+A: Same as Roy’s (12%, OK knockback)

Air Back + A: Same as Roy’s (11%, OK knockback)

Air Up+A: Same as Roy’s (8%, OK knockback)

Air Down+A: Same as Roy’s (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)


Dash Attack: Same as Roy’s (11%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Same as Roy’s (9%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Same as Roy’s (6%, OK knockback)


Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Leif’s Light Brand bursts with light as he thrusts it forward, in a motion similar to Marth’s Shield Breaker (21%, medium knockback)

Up+A: Same as Roy’s (22%, medium knockback)

Down+A: Same as Roy’s (11%-13% each hit, OK knockback)


Grab Game
Grab: Leif ensnares the target with Light Brand.

Pummel: Leif slashes the target (3%-5%)

Forwards+Throw: Light Brand bursts and launches the target (12%, OK knockback)

Down+Throw: Same as Roy’s (7%, small knockback)

Back+Throw: Same as Roy’s (6%, small knockback)

Up+Throw: Leif tosses the target upwards (3%, small knockback) and stabs them with a burst of light (11%, OK knockback)



Special Moves
B : Light Brand
; functionally the same as Roy’s Flare Blade (14% at normal charge, OK knockback) (38% at full charge, far knockback; 11% recoil)

B + Forwards : Blazing Light; Leif dashes forward and slashes downward in an arc of light (13%, OK knockback), and then slashes upward in a two-hit arc (8%-9% each hit, OK knockback)

B + Up : Rising Light; functionally the same as Dolphin Jump, one of Marth’s custom moves from Smash 4, but the light around Leif can deal damage (14%, OK knockback)

B + Down : Dual Counter; when hit up close, Leif surrounds himself with a burst of light that hits everyone around him (1.34x multiplied). When hit from afar, he unleashes an orb of light that spawns around the opponent and bursts (19%, medium knockback)

Final Smash: Critical Hit; Leif dashes forward and slashes (9%). Any opponents caught are surrounded by a giant orb of light, which explodes in front of a rotating triangle (55%, devastating knockback)


Gimmick: Echo Fighter to Roy, with a few differences.


Taunts
1: “We will prevail!” Leif mimics his in-game battle sprite from Thracia 776.

2: “I won’t run anymore.” Leif mimics his damage art from Fire Emblem Heroes.

1+2: “This is my fight!” Leif loosely mimics his artwork from Awakening.



Winposes
1: “I must be able to protect everyone.” Leif mimics his box art pose from Thracia 776.

2: “On my blade, I swear it!” Leif runs towards the camera (taken from his official Thracia 776 artwork) and performs a backhand slash.

3: “Father, please watch over me…” Leif looks up to the sky, kneeling on Light Brand, which is planted into the ground.


Applause: Leif gives a slight smile and claps.

Icon: The Fire Emblem series icon.

Boxing Ring Title: Unifier of Thracia

Star K.O.: “I’ve failed youuuuu….!”

Victory Music: https://youtu.be/o0l6BSZURKE

Kirby Hat: Leif’s hair.
There's never been any sources on Leif being planned playable for Melee from what I can gather, it's a rumour that makes little sense considering Melee had 13 months of development and although I don't know how long Binding Blade was in development, the reason it came out after Melee was because of delays
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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There's never been any sources on Leif being planned playable for Melee from what I can gather, it's a rumour that makes little sense considering Melee had 13 months of development and although I don't know how long Binding Blade was in development, the reason it came out after Melee was because of delays
While I don't think Leif was a planned character anymore than Sigurd was, Leif is an old enough character that he would have been eligible for Super Smash Bros. on the Nintendo 64. Unless you're thinking of it on the grounds that he's a promotional character, timing isn't really against him.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Clonedorf is my preference. He used magic less and less as the games went by. And Ganondorf's swords in TP and WW are completely different from his design. So we'd either have a fast-paced sword version(note that the "waiting for his sword" was a pointless thing since he never had an official one during Melee, and neither of his canon swords ever fit his moveset whatsoever).

TP's Sword of Sages barely fits Ganondorf. He's not fast in TP at all and it was awkward within the game to use. He's not some fencer/fast-paced swordsman in general in that game. He's far slower, and a heavy character. He also doesn't even show much magic of his own, beyond two things; he can control someone, making them float around(and under their will), which is not too easy to translate beyond his Grab abilities and a remake of Disable. The other is a remake of his lightning ball from OOT, during the horseback fight. This isn't Dead Man's Volley either. So DMV wasn't a realistic move to give him outside of Melee at that point, and it didn't remotely fit with his character design.

WW is a fast-paced master swordsman wielding two Katanas, but also is very physical and uses almost no magic. None of his own directly, as invoking the Triforce to turn into Puppet Ganon is it. This is the other version we'd have. He basically stopped working with magic and went into the Gerudo weapon style as a nod to his brethren which were all killed off.

Basically, the Ganondorf we have now is the most magical variant of Ganondorf in the Zelda series. He uses it physically, but he still uses it far more than any other game where he uses any magic to begin with(at least his own dark magic he knows). Thanks to Brawl, he uses a lot more accurate animations in general. Beyond that, it's worth noting that his Wizard's Foot ends with an earthquake animation from OOT, so both Wizard's Foot and Warlock Punch represent his Earthquake Punch in different ways. Of course, Dark Dive is just awful and unfitting(this being changed into a teleport or flying in a direction with his hand out with magic would fit his abilities in Smash a lot better). Gerudo Dragon was pretty eh, but Flame Choke is pretty accurate to his fast abilities as well. He can do bursts of speed, a good way to use the Triforce of Power. Channeling magic can be done in many ways, including short bursts to your muscles to allow for flash steps, an increase in speed like running, and other such things. That's what I feel Ganondorf is about, channeling his immense magic into his physical abilities to represent "Power".

(For the record, I've seen Mage Ganondorf, and I feel it's a cool moveset, but the moves sometimes just feel like they're filling in the blanks at times. Effectively using magical strikes that are almost identical to things like Warlock Punch in concept, which is empowering your limbs with magic, doesn't really make it stand out as unique or accurate either. Why not use his knife he has? Or a Gerudo sword for some of those tilts too? He uses the Phantom Ganon Trident, and that can work too. It just feels like it's trying too hard to ignore how physically capable he is in canon just to make it more mage-like).
 

Wunderwaft

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Been a bit since I've been here, but seeing as how the ARMS fighter could literally drop any day now, might as well chime in that I personally think it's gonna be Min Min or Spring Man. Personally hoping for Min Min, buuuuuut I can't deny Spring Man would be heckin' hilarious and would mean very, very interesting things for the future.
Heey I missed ya buddy, glad to see you're back.
 

Cutie Gwen

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While I don't think Leif was a planned character anymore than Sigurd was, Leif is an old enough character that he would have been eligible for Super Smash Bros. on the Nintendo 64. Unless you're thinking of it on the grounds that he's a promotional character, timing isn't really against him.
I'm thinking of it on the grounds that Sakurai knew about Binding Blade far enough in advance to have based him on the personality he had before they rewrote him to be more like Marth, which explains why Smash Roy is so drastically different from Binding Blade Roy
 

Swamp Sensei

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I'm thinking of it on the grounds that Sakurai knew about Binding Blade far enough in advance to have based him on the personality he had before they rewrote him to be more like Marth, which explains why Smash Roy is so drastically different from Binding Blade Roy
I thought it was because Sakurai interpreted a personality based on his design.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Been a bit since I've been here, but seeing as how the ARMS fighter could literally drop any day now, might as well chime in that I personally think it's gonna be Min Min or Spring Man. Personally hoping for Min Min, buuuuuut I can't deny Spring Man would be heckin' hilarious and would mean very, very interesting things for the future.
That's what makes this cycle so spicy, in spite of us knowing what series it is.

Spring Man invalidates the "rules" on Assist Trophies, Mii Costumes and Sprits
Ribbon Girl invalidates the Mii Costumes and spirits ones
And the rest invalidate the spirit and main character rules.
 

MasterDoom1666

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I don't think the ARMS fighter will be Spring Man. Since he's already an assist trophy (one added in this game, I might add), I imagine it would be kind of indecent to those that created said assist trophy, as their efforts on it would not be able to be seen. If the assist trophy could appear at the same time as the character, then he could defeat himself, which could be strange. It's possible, and I'm curious who actually gets picked.
 

Guybrush20X6

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I don't think the ARMS fighter will be Spring Man. Since he's already an assist trophy (one added in this game, I might add), I imagine it would be kind of indecent to those that created said assist trophy, as their efforts on it would not be able to be seen. If the assist trophy could appear at the same time as the character, then he could defeat himself, which could be strange. It's possible, and I'm curious who actually gets picked.
While I think it will be someone else, it's entirely possible that Spring Man will be promoted and in his place the AT will be made into Springtron. Dark Samus was an assist trophy in Smash 4 so there is precedent for a character's evil clone being an AT.
 

Michael the Spikester

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I don't think the ARMS fighter will be Spring Man. Since he's already an assist trophy (one added in this game, I might add), I imagine it would be kind of indecent to those that created said assist trophy, as their efforts on it would not be able to be seen. If the assist trophy could appear at the same time as the character, then he could defeat himself, which could be strange. It's possible, and I'm curious who actually gets picked.
Assists can be disabled. Knuckles, Alucard and the Moon are notably so on Green Hill Zone, Wii Fit stage and Bay.

Also.

:ultchrom:: In:ultrobin:Final Smash and one of victory animations.
:ultpiranha:: Mario is featured in one of victory animations.
:ultzss:::ultsamus:Featured in Final Smash.

Either that or Springtron takes his place as an assist.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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That's what makes this cycle so spicy, in spite of us knowing what series it is.

Spring Man invalidates the "rules" on Assist Trophies, Mii Costumes and Sprits
Ribbon Girl invalidates the Mii Costumes and spirits ones
And the rest invalidate the spirit and main character rules.
Max Brass or Dr. Coyle are both main characters, so they wouldn't invalidate that rule whatsoever if chosen.
 

Guynamednelson

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I imagine it would be kind of indecent to those that created said assist trophy, as their efforts on it would not be able to be seen
People have already been able to see their efforts (which are far less than a fighter's anyway) for over a year. Its purpose has been filled.
If the assist trophy could appear at the same time as the character, then he could defeat himself, which could be strange.
There's already plenty of factors which can limit the AT pool.
 
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Guybrush20X6

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Max Brass or Dr. Coyle are both main characters, so they wouldn't invalidate that rule whatsoever if chosen.
Depends on your definition of main. In Street Fighter terms, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are to Ryu and Ken as Max Brass and Dr Coyle are to Sagat and Bison (in morality) or Bison and Akuma (in terms of when you fight them).
 

Cosmic77

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I have a feeling once the ARMS character is revealed we'll realize we spent way too much time arguing about protagonists and main characters.

All you need to know is that Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are the mascots and that Max Brass and Dr. Coyle are two characters who are part of the Grand Prix. That's it.
 

MarioRaccoon

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I just got a feeling that we will see next week ARMS character reveal (+ stage, music and mii costumes) but no CP7 until september (or august).

Between Joker release and Hero/Banjo E3 reveal they took 3 months (mid april to mid june). I think we will se something similar (mid-june to mid-september). Then the rest characters will get a more steady release scheduled. (Like 2 months between them, that would be something like october - december - february - april - june).
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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They're connected to the most lore, but they're not main characters since there's no story.
Except there is a story, and Dr. Coyle is the main antagonist of story mode(Tournament Mode is absolutely a story being told). Max Brass is the previous tournament winner and a major part of that story.

Depends on your definition of main. In Street Fighter terms, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are to Ryu and Ken as Max Brass and Dr Coyle are to Sagat and Bison (in morality) or Bison and Akuma (in terms of when you fight them).
Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are mascots, but aren't really equivalent to Ryu in any way. There's no single protagonist whatsoever in ARMS' story mode(tournament mode definitely tells a story). Everybody "can" be a main character, but the protagonist is one of many plausible. So there's always 3 main characters in Story Mode. "Your character", Max Brass, and Dr. Coyle.

There's no official story that supports a canon route for Story Mode at this time. You have literally two mascots(who aren't exactly main characters either in the actual story mode because they don't deliberately have them as the official ones going through that mode depicted nor any statements of that being the canon protagonists), Max Brass(who was a protagonist in his backstory), and Dr. Coyle(an antagonist and a villain in its story).

Maybe someday they'll announce a canon route, but it does not exist at this time. All we have are two mascots and two separated main characters. Spring Man is about as much of a main character as Min Min is in its story mode, which is saying nothing. Because of the game's design, everyone you can play as can be the main character. There's only one constant, which is clearly Dr. Coyle and Max Brass. Mascots aren't inherently "main characters" in the same way. But they're definitely important to the series.
 
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Michael the Spikester

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All you need to know is that Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are the mascots
And why its gonna be either of them.

Yes people keeps saying "Well if it were them why the whole Guess Who game?".

Had it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps the trailer wasn't finished yet and to not keep us waiting just decided to tell us what the next character would be from.
 
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Evil Trapezium

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Max Brass or Dr. Coyle are both main characters, so they wouldn't invalidate that rule whatsoever if chosen.
Springtron as well since he's based on Springman so he'd technically be a main character. It's a pretty big reach but considering this is ARMS, it'd be easy to grab those straws.
 

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And why its gonna be either of them.

Yes people keeps saying "Well if it were them why the whole Guess Who game?".

Had it ever occurred to anyone ever thought perhaps the trailer wasn't finished yet and to not keep us waiting just decided to tell us what the next character would be from.
People forget it is completely on brand for Nintendo to build things up with vague statements only for it to be Mario Teaches Typing 3 or something like that.
 

7NATOR

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Max Brass and Coyle were DLC in their own game, and weren't even given representation in Smash as Spirits, which i would consider it easy for a main character to get. If they get in, I would consider the "Main Protagnist/Mascot must be in first" rule to be broken
 
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