Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[AreJay25]

How can it be RNG when your chance to land a grab was 0%?

Hey sometimes if someone literally just stood in front of you could land the grab, maybe

It only happened like once every 200 matches but it happened alright

 

[SKX31]

No, but are we going to wait around until he does?

He already has.

(Tried to convert the linked sequence into a GIF, but failed. Ah well.)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hey sometimes if someone literally just stood in front of you could land the grab, maybe

It only happened like once every 200 matches but it happened alright

The Pac-Man main celebrates, exiting they're cave to gather rations as he landed the grab. When asked how they followed up on it to secure the stock, they burst into tears

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Tempest is his Side Special?

That's really strange.

Yeah. It even puts you in free fall. I think it's meant to be a combo ender, but it just feels super clunky to me.

Other complete move changes include Rising Falcon being moved to his Down Special (his Down Aerial is now a multi-hit attack that I don't believe is based on anything), his previous Down Special (forgot what it was called, but it had changed from Guardian in ver. 0.9b) being moved to his Down Smash, and his previous Down Smash (Sword Rain), is now his rapid jab.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've grabbed people with Pac-Man before in 4.

...It was like trying to beat every level in Super Mario Bros. 1 without even getting hit once, but it's still possible.

 

[Guynamednelson]

How can it be RNG when your chance to land a grab was 0%?

Every single time you used a grab for the first time after a patch, it probably Feels Faster Now™.

 

[TheHeartbreakKid]

Do you even play those characters? Lucina, Chrom, and Roy all play differently from each other and even if you ignore that, you need a lot of intentional ignorance to miss completely different moves like Blazer or Flare Blade.

To 95% of Smash players, they're basically identical. It's like saying "what dude, Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike! Doc is heavier and kills earlier but his combos are less reliable and blahblablhah" yeah, this is technically true, but it's not a very solid argument

 

[Nazyrus]

-Sighs-

Sorry to say this, but I'm always bothered whenever someone says "unique amongst sword fighters" because... It shouldn't be necessary, really. A character wielding a sword will not automatically mean "not unique", that should be obvious.

Then again this is the Smash fanbase, who really believe Corrin plays the same as Robin.

It's so strange people have this anti-sword bias to the point we have things like Sora fans saying "Keyblade isn't a sword! It's a blunt weapon!" just so they aren't seen with bad eyes.

I surely know that feel so well. When people think Isaac would be just another swordsman that brings nothing unique or is just more of the same. People like to discard that he would be mainly psynergy based and if anything only the jabs would probably use his sword at all.

The problem smash has is lack of franchise variety within the roles, or at least in the swordsmen role. Swordsmen are not even a 1/4 of the roster, not even close. The problem is how half of them are FE characters, 3 links, and then you have other actual franchises lol.

But yeah, it's the smash fanbase we are talking about… it's not gonna get smarter enough to realize the real problem.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

To 95% of Smash players, they're basically identical. It's like saying "what dude, Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike! Doc is heavier and kills earlier but his combos are less reliable and blahblablhah" yeah, this is technically true, but it's not a very solid argument

I mean, that 95% is just objectively wrong, their seemingly small differences have an impact on playstyle how is it not a solid argument, because it's outright true. Just because people choose to literally ignore what's right in front of them doesn't mean they're right

 

[Digital Hazard]

The problem smash has is lack of franchise variety within the roles, or at least in the swordsmen role. Swordsmen are not even a 1/4 of the roster, not even close. The problem is how half of them are FE characters, 3 links, and then you have other actual franchises lol.

I'd say that it's less that Smash has to pick mascots/main protagonists first, and more that swords are simply the most popular choice of weapon in fictional media, where even in plenty of sci-fi series of very high technology, it's not uncommon to see characters use swords as weapons.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

To 95% of Smash players, they're basically identical. It's like saying "what dude, Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike! Doc is heavier and kills earlier but his combos are less reliable and blahblablhah" yeah, this is technically true, but it's not a very solid argument

Sooo...

Listing a character's differences from their base character is not a valid way of explaining how they're different? I mean, you can argue that the visual or gamefeel of the characters are the same (or at least very similar) all you want but mechanically, these characters do have differences.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To 95% of Smash players, they're basically identical. It's like saying "what dude, Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike! Doc is heavier and kills earlier but his combos are less reliable and blahblablhah" yeah, this is technically true, but it's not a very solid argument

That's not really what Cosmic is saying.

He's saying he feels Marth's moveset is pretty easy to slap onto other characters. He's not wrong, since we see it in practice. But he's not saying the characters can't be told apart. Nor is he saying it's a good idea either. Just that it's clearly doable. Fire Emblem Heroes and Smash both reuse Marth's moveset overall. Chrom is the only one who isn't a direct translation of Marth's moveset, but it still comes from the overall same base as Lucina and Roy's does. Obviously Roy evolved well past "clone" too since Smash 4.

As you can see, being a derivative of one's moveset doesn't mean they actually play identical or even that similarly. It just means they use a base character. Mario, for instance, was used as a base for quite a few characters; Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ness, Metal Mario, Polygon Mario, and one of the Alloys. Polygon Ness and Lucas by proxy would be "based on Mario" due to using Ness as a base as well. It's more that kind of thing overall. And even trying to put it as "punches the same as Mario" is very misleading. Being a derivative of one's moveset doesn't mean they actually play similarly or have effectively a lot of the same moves. Ness is extremely different overall regardless of the base. So, what, five characters punch like Mario in the first place(but not every game either), and only 2 of those are directly playable anyway(3 depending if you look at Metal Mario as an unplayable NPC specifically. Going strictly from playable characters, you have Luigi, Dr. Mario... and that's it. I admit I forget if Mii Brawler has some Mario's moves. Also, Primid somewhat takes from Mario a little too if I remember right).

It's a complicated mess and why the argument can get confusing.

(Special note. Ness barely takes from Mario besides a tiny few moves that work in a similar way. Like his jab, his Up Tilt. He's very comparable to Wolf in that way, but far more unique than Wolf is to Fox too. And that's fine. Using a character as a base does not mean that character will have more than a tiny few similar moves either. It can vary. I mean, Bayonetta used Zero Suit Samus as a base and they're extremely different too.)

 

[TTF]

*

I say... WE TIP SOMETHING OVER!

*Tips over lifeguard stand*


NOW WHAT??

 

[Perkilator]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

: Raichu
: Shadow
:
: Morgan
: Jeanne
: Rock Howard

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

: Medusa would definitely be among my picks.

 

[-crump-]

This is something that will never, ever, in a million years happen, but I’m playing (and really enjoying) Bug Fables right now and I can’t help but think how perfect the three playable characters would be as a PT type character in Smash. Their attacks would be easy to translate to Smash, and they already have a relay mechanic built in!

Vi as a light projectile user, Kabbu as a heavyweight with powerful melee moves, and Leif as a slower middleweight with ice magic... Ugh, they’d be perfect. Again, never gonna happen, but MAAAAN if it did.

also you should all check it Bug Fables if you haven’t already, it is sublime

 

[Wunderwaft]

This is something that will never, ever, in a million years happen, but I’m playing (and really enjoying) Bug Fables right now and I can’t help but think how perfect the three playable characters would be as a PT type character in Smash. Their attacks would be easy to translate to Smash, and they already have a relay mechanic built in!

Vi as a light projectile user, Kabbu as a heavyweight with powerful melee moves, and Leif as a slower middleweight with ice magic... Ugh, they’d be perfect. Again, never gonna happen, but MAAAAN if it did.

I'm glad to see Bug Fables is getting more recognition. Nintendo is never gonna make a classic Paper Mario successor, so to see a game with a similair style made by fans brings me joy.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I myself:

: Impa
: Slippy Toad
: Funky Kong
: but with a more modern moveset.
: Galactica Knight
: Raichu

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

: Dry Bowser
: Mega Charizard X/Y (with Sm4sh Charizard moveset)
: Octoling
: Zack
: Louie
: Ninten or Paula

 

[TTF]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

Gooigi
Dry Bowser
Medusa
Black Shadow
Octoling
Panther Caroso

 

[Cosmic77]

I'd really like to see Alph made into an Echo of Olimar. Now that characters like Richter and Daisy exist, I see no reason for him to stay an alt. He doesn't need anything crazy. Maybe just give him his own unique animations and replace Purple Pikmin with Rock Pikmin.

 

[Perkilator]

I'd really like to see Alph made into an Echo of Olimar. Now that characters like Richter and Daisy exist, I see no reason for him to stay an alt. He doesn't need anything crazy. Maybe just give him his own unique animations and replace Purple Pikmin with Rock Pikmin.

I actually made a conceot moveset for Alph using only Winged Pikmin and Rock Pikmin for April Fool's Day.
https://www.deviantart.com/herotrainer7/art/What-if-Alph-was-an-Olimar-Echo-836051245

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

I honestly can't see a lot, though some I think could work on the other hand.

Dixie Kong(only animation changes needed for sure are the tail attacks which is the get-up animations now. Surprisingly a lot more doable now that the tail attacks barely exist. It helps that you can rig the animations from DK's Up B into her hair for a new Up B.)
Black Shadow(using the Brawl/4 moveset)
Shadow(mainly with chaos aesthetics)
Octoling(I know they have alternate weapons to use, so that could help make it more obvious how different they are).
Gooigi(haven't played the game yet, but this seems plausible)
Boshi(only if Geno gets in. Would be more focused on power over combos, but certainly have some extra speed)

One runner up is Hilda for Zelda, but ALBW is already an older game and I doubt they'd go into that. Likewise, it's a similar reason my other fun want, TP Link for Link, isn't listed here. The rest feel way more plausible. F-Zero getting one I admit feels even less likely than Boshi, heh. Possibly replace Boshi with Ms. Pac-Man, though. Female Hero is another runner up that's kind of awkward. How many female Heroes are similar enough in design beyond two? And obviously Luminary would be a key base, since he's an important aspect of the character. Dragon Quest double dipping also doesn't feel likely, as it's not very easy to license and getting as much as they did the first time is fairly lucky.

 

[zeldasmash]

Say, if we'd get more Echo Fighters, who would you suspect would be added? Say we get a 3rd Fighter Pass, only Echo Fighters, 6 characters max. Which characters would you want / suspect ?

Also, since it's DLC, the characters can become more unique, like Ken or Chrom.

Shadow, Octoling, Black Shadow, Dixie Kong, Zack Fair, Mrs. Pac-Man

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Wouldn't Dry Bowser be better as an alternate costume for Bowser? He's literally just Bowser, but dead, and doesn't really have any unique abilities that he doesn't share with his living counterpart. He'd be a darn cool skin though.

 

[ZephyrZ]

To 95% of Smash players, they're basically identical. It's like saying "what dude, Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike! Doc is heavier and kills earlier but his combos are less reliable and blahblablhah" yeah, this is technically true, but it's not a very solid argument

Comparing Mario to Doc is more like comparing Marth to Lucina.

Comparing Marth to Roy is more like comparing Ganondorf to Captain Falcon, or Starfox to Falco. At least, as of Smash 4 it is.

 

[Digital Hazard]

Wouldn't Dry Bowser be better as an alternate costume for Bowser? He's literally just Bowser, but dead, and doesn't really have any unique abilities that he doesn't share with his living counterpart. He'd be a darn cool skin though.

I mean...

Comparing Mario to Doc is more like comparing Marth to Lucina.

Comparing Marth to Roy is more like comparing Ganondorf to Captain Falcon, or Starfox to Falco. At least, as of Smash 4 it is.

I'd say it's more like comparing Marth to Chrom.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That said, if it were to change genres, I'd want it to go all out. Strategy game, RPG, full platformer, heck even a rhythm game, I'd be down for it

Super Smash Karts!

This is ignoring how the point of Opo's post is how major inconsistencies due to solely being a clone can hurt a character

I hate to side with anyone that wants more FE characters, but...

Nothing hurts a character more than....not being playable at all.

Honestly, he's a lot harder to use thanks to F.L.U.D.D. alone, which is hardly user-friendly. Kirby's more user-friendly in comparison now. He's still a decent starter character, but has gotten less user-friendly because of a gimmick. So pretty much your point already happened, unfortunately.

Not that I dislike the idea of F.L.U.D.D. It's just underutilized right now. It's only good for edgeguarding.

They shoulda replaced FLUDD with Cappy in Ultimate.

Using Cappy as a platform would be so good...

I gave an opinion. Hate it all you want, but yours is no better than mine.

Mine is better than both of yours.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To 95% of Smash players, they're basically identical. It's like saying "what dude, Dr. Mario and Mario play nothing alike! Doc is heavier and kills earlier but his combos are less reliable and blahblablhah" yeah, this is technically true, but it's not a very solid argument

If its true, why is it not a solid argument?

Because ignorant people don't understand? That's a terrible stance on stuff.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Dry Bowser actually could feasibly work as a semiclone. He could use blue fire, be lighter (due to only being bones), and change some moves around maybe to emulate pre-Smash 4 Bowser.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Amyway Ike punches and kicks as part of his jab, and also for some of his throws. Since anime is a type of cartoon, that makes Ike a cartoon punchy-kick man.

Discuss.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I mean...

Well at least Dr. Mario has the puzzle genre to pull moves from. He doesn't do it. But it's there.

Though Dry Bowser as a Melee Bowser stand-in would certainly be...a thing that you could do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well at least Dr. Mario has the puzzle genre to pull moves from. He doesn't do it. But it's there.

Though Dry Bowser as a Melee Bowser stand-in would certainly be...a thing that you could do.

Honestly, that's the kind of thing I'd love from Echoes. Classic movesets and all~

 

[Digital Hazard]

Well at least Dr. Mario has the puzzle genre to pull moves from. He doesn't do it. But it's there.

Though Dry Bowser as a Melee Bowser stand-in would certainly be...a thing that you could do.

: "So you're saying I wouldn't the worst recovery anymore?"

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Aside from his fireballs being replaced with pills Dr Mario doesn't really pull any moves from his puzzle game origin though. I feel like Dry Bowser in fact would have a stronger case to be a semiclone. Hell they could even pull in some dry bones elements into his moveset, like letting him throw bones or giving him a detachable head or something.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

: "So you're saying I wouldn't the worst recovery anymore?"

Nah. Since Dr. Mario got heavier due to his sedentary lifestyle, Dry Bowser lost a lot of weight due to no longer having fat...or muscles...which is why he is also much weaker, justifying giving him a better recovery than vanilla Bowser!

 

[GoodGrief741]

If its true, why is it not a solid argument?

Because ignorant people don't understand? That's a terrible stance on stuff.

The initial argument, at least, how I understood it, never was that Marth et al are identical moveset-wise, but rather that all their movesets follow an identical template (or at least, the specials do). The layman's perspective helps that point, because they don't notice and aren't aware of things like tippers, different playstyles and the like, they just notice that side-B always does the same thing, as does down-B, etc.

 

[Schnee117]

Amyway Ike punches and kicks as part of his jab, and also for some of his throws. Since anime is a type of cartoon, that makes Ike a cartoon punchy-kick man.

Discuss.

Ike be like "I'm playing both sides so that way I always come out on top"

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Honestly, that's the kind of thing I'd love from Echoes. Classic movesets and all~

Ok you know what? I thought this was a stupid idea, but now I'm sold. Why? Because Melee Bowser's Edge Attack is so stupid and I love it.