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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Cosmic77

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Fine, we’ll make Zacian stand on its hind legs and use one paw to swing a sword around and make him an Echo of Marth since dog with a sword is all that really matters with getting him into Smash and that technically fits the bill.
Now you're just being petty and facetious.

Look, I'm sorry that I'm not a user who has nothing but praise for Marth and his three clones, but I'm entitled to an opinion. You and several others can attack me for that opinion, but honestly, I'd rather stay true to myself and have no one agree with me than bend over backwards and say whatever gets me a like.

I gave an opinion. Hate it all you want, but yours is no better than mine.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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Friendly reminder that you are allowed to be not knowledgable enough about something to have an informed opinion.
impossible

i know way more than enough based off of the evidence that ive cherry picked to suit my opinions and therefore i am right and you are wrong

im sorry but im rite and youre wrong
 
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Schnee117

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Now you're just being petty and facetious.

Look, I'm sorry that I'm not a user who has nothing but praise for Marth and his three clones, but I'm entitled to an opinion. You and several others can attack me for that opinion, but honestly, I'd rather stay true to myself and have no one agree with me than bend over backwards and say whatever gets me a like.

I gave an opinion. Hate it all you want, but yours is no better than mine.
People are also entitled to call out your opinion for being grossly ignorant.
 

Cutie Gwen

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...Except I didn't say your name. Or anyone specific, for that matter. I was talking about the thread in general.
No but you said this
Isn't that literally the point that was made during the ARMS discussions a few weeks back? I thought everyone that is saying otherwise now agreed back then?
This post heavily suggests people are being hypocrits by being ok with a composite character for ARMS but suddenly objecting to when it applies to Marth, again, people have a habit of thinking two different people saying different things are the same
 

Swamp Sensei

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Maybe its best we just drop the conversation.


Here's a new topic.

I thought of one way to make Lloyd unique among sword fighters and fighters in general.

Specials that cancel into other specials.


In Tales of Symphonia you have several artes that are actually two artes combined. For example, Demonic Thrust is Demon Fang immediately followed by Sonic Thrust.

If we translated this into a Smash moveset, we could have say, a player use neutral b to use Demon Fang, but then immediately press side b to use Sonic Thrust. If done fast enough, Lloyd will use Demonic Thrust instead and the move will have different properties. His base special moves could be attacks that naturally combine with each other, so if he got Demon Fang, Tempest, Sonic Thrust and Sword Rain as his standard special moves, they could all combine with another special move, or even two of three!

This would mean he doesn't get moves like Beast or Rising Falcon as they don't combine with other moves easily, but I think Lloyd would be super fun to play like this.

What do you think?
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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This post heavily suggests people are being hypocrits by being ok with a composite character for ARMS but suddenly objecting to when it applies to Marth, again, people have a habit of thinking two different people saying different things are the same
Likely due to the fact that the "it can and should happen" crowd was louder/more persuasive so the opposition was painted as weirdos who want less content and are also very incorrect on their stance.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Maybe its best we just drop the conversation.


Here's a new topic.

I thought of one way to make Lloyd unique among sword fighters and fighters in general.

Specials that cancel into other specials.


In Tales of Symphonia you have several artes that are actually two artes combined. For example, Demonic Thrust is Demon Fang immediately followed by Sonic Thrust.

If we translated this into a Smash moveset, we could have say, a play use neutral b to use Demon Fang, but then immediately pressing side b to use Sonic Thrust. If done fast enough, Lloyd will use Demonic Thrust instead and the move will have different properties. His base special moves could be attacks that naturally combine with each other, so if he got Demon Fang, Tempest, Sonic Thrust and Sword Rain as his standard special moves, they could all combine with another special move, or even two of three!

This would mean he doesn't get moves like Beast or Rising Falcon as they don't combine with other moves easily, but I think Lloyd would be super fun to play like this.

What do you think?
0/10 not Velvet


In all seriousness, combining specials with inputs sounds crazy but I'm used to that costing meter. Then again, Tales has meters witb Break Souls or whatever those diamonds were called right? Can work really well.









Buuuuuut I want Velvet Crowe
 

GoodGrief741

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I mean, saying characters who fight absolutely nothing like Marth on basis of using magic isn't exactly arguing in good faith either, but you're only aggressive to the people saying "what no Celica cannot work as a Marth clone", so why are you trying to catch flies with vinegar yourself?
If it actually had been a simple "Celica can't work as a Marth clone, sure", but it wasn't. The end goal wasn't to educate, or even to understand what he was saying, it was to confront and mock. And if it wasn't, I apologize for the accusation, but that's how it read to me, and I can only imagine that it read the same to Cosmic. I'm not trying to be aggressive to anyone, I pointed out what I felt was the starting point of the whole issue rather than every step of the escalation that followed. If I did come off as aggressive or hurtful, I'm sorry, it really was not my intention.

I'm not about to claim that anyone's got ill will, we're human beings, we misunderstand each other and we assume things. But I want to point out when I see a problem because I love Fire Emblem and I want to be able to discuss it without everything turning into a toxic ****show. I assume you do as well.
 

Swamp Sensei

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In all seriousness, combining specials with inputs sounds crazy but I'm used to that costing meter.
You could make it cost meter, but I honestly think it could work without it. Kind of like Ryu/Ken, the inherent difficulty would help balance imo.

Then again, Tales has meters witb Break Souls or whatever those diamonds were called right? Can work really well.
That isn't in Tales of Symphonia.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Likely due to the fact that the "it can and should happen" crowd was louder/more persuasive so the opposition was painted as weirdos who want less content and are also very incorrect on their stance.
So basically if you think "this argument is dumb and bull****" you're assumed to be with the majority. That's dumb
Just like I can call out people for being obsessively protective over something to the point to where they made up their minds before even trying to understand the point brought up.
I'm not gonna lie, I'm very tempted to screencap this post so that I can post it when you get obsessively protective of gen 8 again after seeing some people say they don't think it's going to happen
 

Swamp Sensei

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So basically if you think "this argument is dumb and bull****" you're assumed to be with the majority. That's dumb
I'm not gonna lie, I'm very tempted to screencap this post so that I can post it when you get obsessively protective of gen 8 again after seeing some people say they don't think it's going to happen
Gwen let it go. The argument has gone past any reasonable discussion at this point.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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You could make it cost meter, but I honestly think it could work without it.
I'm sorry, but if you don't run out of MP the first 30 seconds of the match, it's not an authentic Lloyd experience. :4pacman:

So basically if you think "this argument is dumb and bull****" you're assumed to be with the majority. That's dumb
More that the winning argument is perceived to now be the majority opinion regardless of if that's true or not. I think the generalization wasn't to call you out, just express confusion that the "general consensus" seemed to be in the other direction the last time this argument was had.
 

Cutie Gwen

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You could make it cost meter, but I honestly think it could work without it. Kind of like Ryu/Ken, the inherent difficulty would help balance imo.


That isn't in Tales of Symphonia.
I mean, there's a difference between timing multiple inputs and doing one B attack and then the other B attack, especially considering the game's buffer system
If it actually had been a simple "Celica can't work as a Marth clone, sure", but it wasn't. The end goal wasn't to educate, or even to understand what he was saying, it was to confront and mock. And if it wasn't, I apologize for the accusation, but that's how it read to me, and I can only imagine that it read the same to Cosmic. I'm not trying to be aggressive to anyone, I pointed out what I felt was the starting point of the whole issue rather than every step of the escalation that followed. If I did come off as aggressive or hurtful, I'm sorry, it really was not my intention.

I'm not about to claim that anyone's got ill will, we're human beings, we misunderstand each other and we assume things. But I want to point out when I see a problem because I love Fire Emblem and I want to be able to discuss it without everything turning into a toxic ****show. I assume you do as well.
My bad, I read it differently but then again I know a lot of people who have issues conveying what they want to say, so that makes sense
 

GoodGrief741

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My bad, I read it differently but then again I know a lot of people who have issues conveying what they want to say, so that makes sense
It's all good. And sorry for focusing on you, I don't want it to seem like I got something personal or anything. You were simply the only one that replied to me (which I appreciate, by the way).
 

Swamp Sensei

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Maybe its best we just drop the conversation.


Here's a new topic.

I thought of one way to make Lloyd unique among sword fighters and fighters in general.

Specials that cancel into other specials.


In Tales of Symphonia you have several artes that are actually two artes combined. For example, Demonic Thrust is Demon Fang immediately followed by Sonic Thrust.

If we translated this into a Smash moveset, we could have say, a player use neutral b to use Demon Fang, but then immediately press side b to use Sonic Thrust. If done fast enough, Lloyd will use Demonic Thrust instead and the move will have different properties. His base special moves could be attacks that naturally combine with each other, so if he got Demon Fang, Tempest, Sonic Thrust and Sword Rain as his standard special moves, they could all combine with another special move, or even two of three!

This would mean he doesn't get moves like Beast or Rising Falcon as they don't combine with other moves easily, but I think Lloyd would be super fun to play like this.

What do you think?
To add a little more to this idea, you could combine a special move with itself to get a powered up version of that move.

For example, Demon Fang could turn into Double Demon Fang or Demonic Chaos if you press the button two or three times.
 

Opossum

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Maybe its best we just drop the conversation.


Here's a new topic.

I thought of one way to make Lloyd unique among sword fighters and fighters in general.

Specials that cancel into other specials.


In Tales of Symphonia you have several artes that are actually two artes combined. For example, Demonic Thrust is Demon Fang immediately followed by Sonic Thrust.

If we translated this into a Smash moveset, we could have say, a player use neutral b to use Demon Fang, but then immediately press side b to use Sonic Thrust. If done fast enough, Lloyd will use Demonic Thrust instead and the move will have different properties. His base special moves could be attacks that naturally combine with each other, so if he got Demon Fang, Tempest, Sonic Thrust and Sword Rain as his standard special moves, they could all combine with another special move, or even two of three!

This would mean he doesn't get moves like Beast or Rising Falcon as they don't combine with other moves easily, but I think Lloyd would be super fun to play like this.

What do you think?
Mentioned this to you before, but this idea really made me warm up to Lloyd more as someone who's never played Tales. My only experience with Lloyd otherwise was in SSF2 where was, well...not great.
 

Cutie Gwen

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It's all good. And sorry for focusing on you, I don't want it to seem like I got something personal or anything. You were simply the only one that replied to me (which I appreciate, by the way).
Oh the only time I really took anything personally was when one guy went on a tirade by spamming a ****ton of my posts by using quotes to start **** in the Geno thread, which led me to make my first and so far only post there which was pretty much "Hey maybe don't pull this if you don't want drama in your thread. I know it's just one guy who did this but just don't tag someone solely to start ****". Despite how I've been vocal about Geno and his fans, I got a surprising amount of likes for that.
To add a little more to this idea, you could combine a special move with itself to get a powered up version of that move.

For example, Demon Fang could turn into Double Demon Fang or Demonic Chaos if you press the button two or three times.
I feel like there has to be a drawback, though then again I abuse the **** out of Terry's cancelable normals so much my friends think he's broken
 

Swamp Sensei

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Mentioned this to you before, but this idea really made me warm up to Lloyd more as someone who's never played Tales. My only experience with Lloyd otherwise was in SSF2 where was, well...not great.
Thank you.

There's only one issue with the moveset idea and its that in Tales of Symphonia, specials do not cancel into other specials.

Those combinations I showed are standalone artes that you get by using certain artes a number of times.

That said, I think it reflects Tales' extensive combo system while interpreting those combined specials in a new way.

I feel like there has to be a drawback, though then again I abuse the **** out of Terry's cancelable normals so much my friends think he's broken
You could give Lloyd a TP meter I suppose.
 

Digital Hazard

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I thought of one way to make Lloyd unique among sword fighters
-Sighs-

Sorry to say this, but I'm always bothered whenever someone says "unique amongst sword fighters" because... It shouldn't be necessary, really. A character wielding a sword will not automatically mean "not unique", that should be obvious.

Then again this is the Smash fanbase, who really believe Corrin plays the same as Robin.

It's so strange people have this anti-sword bias to the point we have things like Sora fans saying "Keyblade isn't a sword! It's a blunt weapon!" just so they aren't seen with bad eyes.
 

Schnee117

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To add a little more to this idea, you could combine a special move with itself to get a powered up version of that move.

For example, Demon Fang could turn into Double Demon Fang or Demonic Chaos if you press the button two or three times.
This sounds pretty close to Dante in MvC so I'm all in
 

PhantomShab

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Jesus Christ some people read anything that can vaguely seem to be attacking Fire Emblem and they'll automatically turn defensive to the point of parody.

You can take Cosmic's original post, change it into being about Fox and the space furries, and it would still make sense. Chill tf down and realize you're both arguing the same point.

Marth's moveset is generic enough that many FE characters had it applied to them, with their personalities being conveyed (with varying degrees of success) through different animations and slight moveset differences that thankfully amount to different playstyles for each character.

The guy expressed a desire for more unique movesets for Fire Emblem characters (something I agree with, personally I wish that Chrom had a unique moveset, as I think that there are many ways to be a swordfighter) and more Echoes of other movesets. How the hell is that so controversial? Are people just looking to start a fight the second someone has an opinion on Fire Emblem?
I don't even care for Fire Emblem and I understood what he was talking about.
 

Swamp Sensei

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-Sighs-

Sorry to say this, but I'm always bothered whenever someone says "unique amongst sword fighters" because... It shouldn't be necessary, really. A character wielding a sword will not automatically mean "not unique", that should be obvious.

Then again this is the Smash fanbase, who really believe Corrin plays the same as Robin.

It's so strange people have this anti-sword bias to the point we have things like Sora fans saying "Keyblade isn't a sword! It's a blunt weapon!" just so they aren't seen with bad eyes.
I mean, I agree with you.

But I'm trying to sell Lloyd in a way that will appeal even to those staunchly anti sword people.
 

Cutie Gwen

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-Sighs-

Sorry to say this, but I'm always bothered whenever someone says "unique amongst sword fighters" because... It shouldn't be necessary, really. A character wielding a sword will not automatically mean "not unique", that should be obvious.

Then again this is the Smash fanbase, who really believe Corrin plays the same as Robin.

It's so strange people have this anti-sword bias to the point we have things like Sora fans saying "Keyblade isn't a sword! It's a blunt weapon!" just so they aren't seen with bad eyes.
Meanwhile those very same people who make people feel a need to justify their swordfighters of choice end up ****ing nutting at characters who have the same jab as Mario all the time
 

Opossum

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Meanwhile those very same people who make people feel a need to justify their swordfighters of choice end up ****ing nutting at characters who have the same jab as Mario all the time
Leave Pac-Man alone he did nothing wrong. :^(
 

KingofPhantoms

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I've never played a Tales of Symphonia game, buuut I remembering liking playing as Lloyd in SSF2.

So there's that. I don't typically like to use a fan game as a basis for what a character could do in an actual Smash game, but if a fanmade Smash game can make him fun to play, I don't see why the dev team behind the real deal couldn't get creative and make him fun to play there, too.

He poisoned our water supply, burnt our crops and delivered a plague upon our houses
He did?
 

Wunderwaft

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Mentioned this to you before, but this idea really made me warm up to Lloyd more as someone who's never played Tales. My only experience with Lloyd otherwise was in SSF2 where was, well...not great.
I guess I'm not the only one who was turned off the idea of Lloyd thanks to SSF2 haha. Something about Lloyd in that game felt boring to me and it failed to make me interested in the character. The idea of special cancelling and whatnot does make Lloyd more appealing to me, especially since Heihachi is who I want and he would bring all sorts of nonsense with him to Smash.

With a roster of 80 characters it's hard to stand out from the rest, which is why I'm hoping the DLC characters to tap on archetypes and ideas that aren't represented a lot in the current roster.
 

Phoenixio

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Meanwhile those very same people who make people feel a need to justify their swordfighters of choice end up ****ing nutting at characters who have the same jab as Mario all the time
It's generalizations like this that fuel fights all over the place. With 50 000+ posts, you should know this... Let people say what they want for their characters, instead of antagonizing everybody and instigating negative comments when nobody has actually done any of what you said in the context of this discussion.
 
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